+++ plato iv group notes +++ general interest notes 1975 notes beginning april 5, 1975 file onotes26 printed at 4:21 am on june 11, 1976 ---------- note 0 Not room 04/05 15.53 fay rtv362 " " Indicates lessons in use...(sorry, micro doesn't work in notes): The message students get when using the system router when, at condense time, there is not enough room in ECS for the lesson they have requested could be improved, I think, by adding: "The lessons which are in use are already in the computers active memory and you will be able to take one of those without running into the memory problem." I think I am correct in deducing that is the intent of the message in the first place. But the average student user probably will not be able to deduce the same. ---------- response 1 04/06 07.01 fay rtv362 (whoops...micro does work) I meant "Δ"...tjf ---------- note 7 help KK 04/05 19.35 kastens mus1 To whom it may concern: While in football, a note appeared at the bottom of my screen telling me to read my notes when done. My course is (apparently) not prepared to read notes. Whoever asked me to read my notes, please contact me some other way. Thanks. KK ---------- note 11 -window- 04/05 21.53 tatsuoka users i wrote a help note earlier asking if there were any other forms of the -window- command besides rectangles... (there weren't) i am wondering now whether there are any plans to implement other forms of the -window- command... i.e., -wcircle-, -wtriang- and the like.... i hope i'm not the only one who would find these useful... ---------- response 1 04/05 22.18 md csa I'm afraid that the overhead in implementing such a feature would make it worthless. Furthermore I don't know of any system that has a non-rectangular 'window' command. Why not just go to the extra effort and have your drawings appear as tho they were written with an odd shaped window. md ---------- response 2 04/06 10.20 b sherwood s right ---------- response 3 04/07 10.27 shirer vu amen! ---------- note 13 signon 04/05 22.18 monical cs105st This has probably been gone through before. but why not have a special type of signon for game players and others without regualar signons who wish to use the system? The signon could have something akin to the following characteristics: 1) It would be unavailable during prime-time. 2) Those using it would get first priority in deletion when students are attempting to enter a lesson during high ecs times. 3) It would give the same access to lessons as a student that an author receives, but no other author privelages. Such a signon would at least stop people from wasting so much of an author's time by asking him for use of his code. Comments? ---------- response 1 04/05 22.43 temmerman css good idea....although it could be abused. As long as the games are in there, they might as well be used John F.Temmerman ---------- response 2 04/05 23.28 berger users 1. What is the difference between a student or multiple signon accessing a router that does the appropriate time checks, and the type of signon that you suggest? With the site director options. the deletion question is a moot one. 2. If a person is entitled access to the system, it should be presumed that he is entitled to the full privleges ass- ociated with his user type, because this system can't at this time support people who are on the system exculsively to play games. 3. There is no need to complain about gameplayers. There is an operator on duty for room 165 24 hours a day, and he has the power to kick off gameplayers if they are caus- ing trouble. Sire director options are very powerful. ---------- response 3 04/05 23.44 parrello uimatha You were right about this having been gone through before. I wish I had a Fanta for every time it was suggested. ---------- response 4 04/05 23.55 oberpriller arizona Games eat up enough processor time when legitimate authors use them for a diversion from serious work(they do work, I hope) without having people who are of no benefit to the system as a whole wasting system resources on nothing but games. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to games, but I am opposed to people who contribute nothing getting this kind of priviledge. blue kangaroo ---------- response 5 04/06 02.50 monical cs105st In answer to response 2: The signon I humbly suggest differs from a student and/or multople in that the user would have the highest priority for deletion when a student is attempting to condense a lesson but cannot do so without kicking out someone else. As far as I know this would not be possible with a student or multiple signon. The system at some times can support game players (i.e., 4 a.m.). An appropriate cpu limit could be set on this code to prevent excessive use of high_TIPS games for instance, cpulim‎2000/tactive). I can count the really high-cpu games on my ten fingers. Another advantage of this signon could be that games could be inhibited to all codes save this one≤≤≤≤≤_≤≤≤≤_ ____ ___. Thus authors trying to do condense their own lessons for testing would have a lower deletion priority then games players. **continued** ---------- response 6 04/06 03.06 monical cs105st **continued from previous note** I do not suggest that Plato's limited cpu and ecs be used unfairly by game players. I am merely trying to find a way to use the excess capacity we have at the wee morning hours, without interfearing with more important things at other times. There are many who love Plato and are constantly plotting ways of getting on the system, through borrowing author codes (with or without the author's permission), pleading with course directors, and generally getting on our backs. I suggest we give them their fun if a way can be found to do so without compromising the system. ---------- response 7 04/06 04.25 oberpriller arizona My previous comment still stands. It is bad enough trying to author during the day (I've found it impossible at times), much less allow the sys to become saturated at night with game-players. I realize the significance of games, but what is plato for? Games? Authors? Students? I find that most of my authoring cannot be done during the day, and therefore must be done at night. As an author, I do not appreciate NON¬PRODUCTIVE persons making use of system resources that I and other authors could put to GOOD use. Why do we want to give them this privilege? Because we are tired of hearing them beg us for signons? C'mon! Let's here some GOOD reasons for WHY it should be done rather than suggestions for HOW to do it. blue kangaroo ---------- response 8 04/06 11.27 judy pso As far as that goes, I am tired of people like monical calling me up and asking me things like "how old are you" and "let's get together for a beer tonight". They just call up any female on the "user" list. It doesn't waste much CPU time. but it for sure wastes _my_ time. "monical" is hardly the person to be suggesting appropriate uses of the system. I know I can get rid of pests by just pressing BACK, but my job is to try to be helpful. Lots of times a poor lonely soul in Timbuctu calls and exchanges a few pleasantries before getting around to his questions. That seems quite reasonable --- but it also means I have to listen long enough to decide whether the caller may be working up to bona-fide question. ---------- response 9 04/06 11.44 baker me I find myself opposed to the idea. There may be excess capicity in the early morning now but with a sign-on like has been suggested. I think this place will be turned into a circus. Fred Baker ---------- response 10 04/06 14.27 gilpin peer it's true that there are many "people who love plato" who will do almost anything to get on...but not all of them want to play games. some of them want to learn tutor on their own time. my own preference is to allocate any "left over" resources that may exist to the latter kind of plato-lover, and it was to that end that i suggested the jr-author signon in gn185. i still think that's a good idea, and i not that the sort of people monical wants to let in are just the sort of people it was meant to screen out. also, thanks to judy for her response here--it was cases such as she mentions that i had in mind when i spoke in gnl85r2 of "time spent fending off frivolous talk calls". ---------- response 11 04/06 16.48 deiss phar I think I have a solution for many of these problems signon sometime with the name stud, course playdo, password recipe. ---------- response 12 04/06 20.07 oberpriller arizona Definitely an interesting solution. But there have been numerous notes in the past concerning the misuse of a multiple into 'sample'. There is the problem that a great number of the "vultures" who would use this type of signon, are only interested in killing time playing games. Do you keep any kind of data on the number of users of each part of stud/playdo? You may find that the majority aren't interested in PLATO, just in games. blue kangaroo ---------- response 13 04/07 09.04 friedman csa I wish the students who have been bugging me could read this series of notes. Execute lesson cscomments if you want to see what I mean. ---------- response 14 04/07 11.55 oberpriller arizona I saw those. Are you sure there is no way we could show this series? I think it would be very amusing to see their responses. I think the requests made by these students exemplify what I mean when I talk about "vultures". blue kangaroo ---------- response 15 04/07 12.29 deiss phar The system router doesn't collect such stats (re question about stud). If it don't, I sure wont. The way to cut abuse out of sample is to keep games out of it. I can't see keeping people out of sample altogether just because of vultures. We have game playing under control over here because of the stud signon. They can't get on when there is a big load, they can't tie up all terminals and they can't come in and tear the place apart when no attendant is present. Works pretty good for us. ---------- response 16 04/07 16.53 friedman csa Sorry, Kangaroo, I don't know any (reasonable) way to copy from the common in cscomments into these notes.↓ But it's nice to read these notes, after having to be defensive (with my students) in the cscomments forum. ---------- response 17 04/08 13.40 preece cerl This is a general principles sort of response. The machine should (given resources) be available to all students, not only those in specific courses, and for all purposes, not only lessons. Just like a library. The catch is the "given resources". If PLATO can allocate resources sensibly, as the note suggests, it should. Anyone who has been to Dartmouth knows the idea works, if the school will support the system as necessary. There, at least, games do not significantly impact total system availability. It's a much better philosophy than that seen around PLATO. The machine is a school resource; it should not be restricted unless necessary, and then only as necessary. Even here there are times when it just isn't necessary. Scott Preece ---------- note 16 course rec 04/05 23.16 mckeown com Two suggestions for the course records editor:↓ 1. When a message is being edited, next1 is active to indicate that the revision is complete, but if next1 is pressed after a next (say a correction is made in line 2, then next is pressed, then next1), the entire follow- ing line (3 in my example) is lost. How about the same convention as in the tutor editor on replacing lines?↓ 2. When looking at the students running page, I am much more interested in know where a student is than I am in his station number. Could the *sitenam* be displayed instead of site-station? (This would probably require that monitor and delete would have to be activated by name.) ---------- response 1 04/07 17.46 schroeder iumusic in course records, there is option 3, which will tell you what lesson and unit people are in....and I like knowing where people are running from myself... ---------- note 17 "key" 04/05 23.31 telson arizona after a little testing, i have found that after a -catchup- the system variable "key" contains the alpha "b2", octal 0235. this happens regardless of what "key" was before. why should this be? ---------- response 1 04/05 23.51 parrello uimatha The catchup key is pressed. (See -aids-, under "key names" if you don't believe there is such a thing.) ---------- response 2 04/06 10.30 b sherwood s And notice in the aids discussion that "key" is actually a 10-bit (!) key-code. 2 bits for key source (keyset, touch panel, external input) and 8 bits of data (only 7 come from the terminal in the case of real keyset keys, but a translation is done to make function keys and "software" keys such as catchup have codes bigger than 0200). So 0235 does not mean o02 followed by 035, but rather the software key 0235, which is catchup. ---------- note 33 cpu var 04/06 11.46 baker me Would it be possible to have a system variable that would show how bust the cpu is (like the size of the time slice) I think this would be a great help to game authors and the authors of other high cpu lessions so that they may deny access when the cpu time is tight. Fred Baker ---------- response 1 04/06 12.04 ken conn I think that this would be an ideal feature, with the current CPU crunch. Now that the ECS crunch has been relieved, router people now have to worry about the usuage of the CPU in deciding the load on the system. A reserved word will help in the task. ---------- response 2 04/06 21.59 bowery rhrc I believe that there are numbers like this available. (ie: cpu idle time for each cpu) Of course these numbers would have to be updated constantly by a sample- taker of some type if one does not already exist. This maybe too much overhead for a mere reserved word. ---------- response 3 04/06 22.16 galcher uimatha Just a question of semantics... 1. I do not know about the exact featuring of the CPU but would tend to wager some form of money that it does not have the aforementioned feature (bust). ---------- response 4 04/07 09.48 baker me Sorry may the Godsweater come after me for that slip bust‎busy Fred Baker ---------- response 5 04/07 15.00 artman cs109 it made sense to me the first time............ artman/cs109 ---------- note 37 marseilles 04/06 14.56 hody med i have just received an announcement which may be of some general interest. The 2nd world conference, "IFIP: Computers in Education" will be held in Marseilles 1-5 September 75. It is too late to submit papers but there are tons of time to register. I wonder if: 1. anyone knows of any plans to show plato live? 2. if there will be any papers regarding plato? ticcit? the official preliminary program shows invited papers from the USA to be by A. M. Bork, A. Luerhmann, and P. Suppes, but there will be many additional unsolicited papers. strangely enough, there is scheduled a paper by a J. Nivergelt from Switzerland. any relation to a computer scientist here with roughly similarly spelled name and same first initial? get your vouchers in! ---------- response 1 04/06 22.28 hody med while we are at it what is the possibility and nature of plato participation in the national computer conference scheduled for the middle of may-- in anaheim, california? how about it cdc.... you gonna do something? ---------- response 2 04/07 07.48 danielson csa It is the same Nievergelt. He'll be on leave in Switzerland next year, and is presenting a paper at the conference. ---------- response 3 04/07 08.47 hody med do you know anything about the nature of the paper? is it about plato? will there be hardware demo? ---------- response 4 04/07 09.03 b sherwood phys The thrust of Prof. Nievergelt's paper is to say that rather than talking about CAI in isolation, it makes more sense to talk about interactive systems in general, no matter how used. That is, a highly interactive system can be used in various ways, as is PLATO (tutoring and testing students, handling communications among users, providing computational and information services, etc.). He discusses how the use of such systems is likely to develop in the future. Except for using PLATO as an example of an interactive system, the paper is fairly general. He does briefly discuss computer science teaching on PLATO. Good paper! As to other PLATO participation, Dr. Alpert is scheduled to discuss the PLATO military training program at the conference, if I am not mistaken. ---------- response 5 04/07 09.38 anderson eco108 We have had our paper on the CMI use of PLATO in Economics 108 accepted for the conference. ---------- response 6 04/07 12.14 hody med i apologize for confusing two conferences in one note-- would you please clarify if you'all mean the Marseilles conference or the Anaheim conference with respect to Dr. Alpert's paper and the Economics paper...? ---------- response 7 04/07 13.45 anderson eco108 ...the Marsailles conference... ---------- response 8 04/07 13.46 b sherwood phys Nievergelt and Alpert--Marseilles. I don't personally know of any plans relative to Anaheim. ---------- response 9 04/07 13.48 anderson eco108 ...Marseilles (pardon the misspelled word)... ---------- response 10 04/07 13.53 alpert mtc The title of my proposed paper for the "Computers in Education" conference at Marseilles is : "The PLATO IV system in use: a progress report." Dan Alpert ---------- response 11 04/07 18.48 hody med marvelous i'll plan to be there-- thank you all for the replies. ---------- response 12 04/09 11.43 sylvia pdg I just read all the above notes on the Marseilles conference. The Population Dynamics Group will also be presenting a paper on computer assisted population Education systems. The paper is by V. Klaff and P. Handler and one of them will be making the presentation. Sylvia Carlson ---------- note 41 morgue 04/06 20.47 heidi conn There was a discussion in "old" general interest note 459, entitled -priorities-, which was dated 4/3 with several responses left after that date, which was delegated to the archives upon the recent re-initialization of those notes. I had hoped to keep that discussion going. Please take a look at it. The note and its replies discuss the need for setting priorities upon lessons given a limited resource such as the condensor, and methods for implement- ing lesson priorities within a router (responses 4 + 5). P.S. This suggests that there be an overlap of several days rather than just a few notes when notes are reinitialized. ---------- note 42 crs edit 04/06 21.24 s stone iu systems: I don't know _how_ many times I've asked for it, but could you please put the security routine (XX X XX, etc.) in the change and inspect codes for the course editor? Thanks, Steve Stone (You don't know what a pain it is not having any privace in the Indiana University library.!) ---------- response 1 04/06 21.49 halvorsen forestry Same goes for the student data file. It seems rather inconsistent to have some system lessons having this ability and some do not. I would like to see the "enter a new password" option in course records act similar to the DATA page in a tutor lesson. In other words. all system lessons should ask for the password _twice_ any time any password is being changed. The only two lessons I can think of that need this are: 1) Course records 2) Student Data file Tim Halvorsen ---------- response 2 04/07 09.52 baker me While we are it how about when a course director inserts a password in the course records Baker ---------- note 45 PLAT? 04/06 22.02 galcher uimatha I noticed at approximately 9:45 this evening (Sunday, April 6, 1975) that due to some unfortunality that there would be a new PLAT loaded. Not knowing exactly what a PLAT was, I assumed that this must either be :↓ 1. A typo caused by many hours of frustrating hard work by one of our diligent systems programmers or,↓ 2. An experimental system being brought up by one of those beforementioned people.↓ No sooner had I thought out these possibilities then was the system up and running again, but to my surprise the signon page was again changed (from its other "new" face) to another one indicating that this system would be slightly unstable. I realize that this is a nice feature but a little redundant since anyone editing after 10pm is unstable anyway... Hoping your PLAT is a good PLAT ---------- response 1 04/06 22.03 halvorsen forestry unfortunality?!?!?! ---------- response 2 04/06 22.11 parrello uimatha _unfortunality_ [un-fo-xr-tun-al-ite≤↑ˆ-↑ˇ]--1) n. misfortune; a bad event. "My death is an unfortunality." 2) something that sends a Galcher into a frenzy. "Due to some unfortunality, exams occured as scheduled." [from "unfortunate", NE, meaning unfortunate.] The Informative Red Sweater ---------- response 3 04/07 09.53 baker me God what and education one can get just from gen. notes!! Baker ---------- response 4 04/07 10.31 caveman forestry What more do you expect from an Urkrainian???? ---------- response 5 04/07 12.39 galcher uimatha More than I would expect from a forestry major.... ---------- response 6 04/07 14.38 meers wright It is spelled _Ukrainian_... Does anyone know if the proper way to say it would be 'a Ukrainian' or 'an Ukrainian' ?? The first sounds better... an elephant an uncle an american a american aEuropean anEuropean an Arab aArab what are the strange rules governing this? ---------- response 7 04/07 15.57 sam martin ve an historian, too ---------- response 8 04/07 16.07 stoddard o Please talk about seman ---------- response 9 04/07 16.10 stoddard o Om jez... I meant-- please talk about _semantics_ some- where else... (whew)... ---------- response 10 04/07 16.17 celia pso You asked for it! As I understand it, "a" is used before words which begin with a written vowel, but a pronounced semi-vowel, e.g. [j] (which is the phonetic representation of the first sound of the word "you" or "yet"). So one naturally says "a Ukrainian" and " a usurpation" but "an elephant". Linguistically yours, Celia ---------- response 11 04/07 16.20 bradley iu The word is spelled 'occur_r_ed'. ---------- response 12 04/07 16.47 parrello uimatha BLAST! I can never get that one right. Maybe I should start carrying a spelling dictionary around or something... ---------- response 13 04/07 19.19 hinton ssu If you had a spelling dictionary and couldn't spell, how would you look up the words ? An User ---------- response 14 04/07 19.24 telson arizona what ever happened to PLAT---the original concern of the note....??? ---------- response 15 04/07 20.39 parrello uimatha It only appears when the system is unstable, which, of course, is only during periods when the water chiller breaks down... ---------- response 16 04/07 21.00 galcher uimatha Or the tubes on the console BLAN.... ---------- response 17 04/07 21.26 dave infe More on A/AN: Glides act funny as well as semivowels; for example: The H sound in English is a (voiceless) vowel phonetically, but a consonantal phonemically. Most Americans pattern it phonemically when producing A/AN before an initial H, and most other English speakers treat it phonemically there; but there are exceptions: hence 'a/an historian.' You do hear ' an Ukrainian' for similar reasons. Neither is either right or wrong. Leave Your Language Alone! DD ---------- response 18 04/08 21.39 creager cs109 Today's program has been brought to you by the letter A and the number 6. ---------- note 50 readr stat 04/07 01.42 chabay s -readr stats- now returns all numbers as v-variables for consistency. ---------- note 53 password 04/07 09.00 errol kka Many thanks for the new password page. ---------- response 1 04/07 11.52 s stone iu huh? ---------- response 2 04/07 14.00 errol kka When a new student uses plato, he is usally asked to make up a password. REMEMBER? ---------- response 3 04/08 10.58 p cohen med Wehrli: To see the "new password page," sometime when you think of it, type in your password and press -LAB- twice. The page appearing is the one seen by new authors typing in their passwords for the first time, or, in your case, old authors who want to change their passwords. It has been modified slightly so as to be less confusing. I hope I have made this all perfectly clear. --paul ---------- note 62 cur-used 04/07 10.43 s stone iu I have asked this before and will ask it again: Why won't you display the unit that the user is in on the 'Lesson is currently in use' page??????? I don't like deleting people if they are near to finished with a particular lesson.... Thanks, Steve Stone ---------- response 1 04/07 14.47 obrien uicc This does sound valuable. ---------- note 63 passprob 04/07 11.30 wehrli pea Exactly what is the 'password page' which note 54 in this lesson refers to? It sounds completely new to me. ---------- response 1 04/07 13.58 errol kka When a new student uses plato, he is asked to make up a password. REMEMBER? ---------- response 2 04/07 14.53 al mfl Yes, I remember, That still doesn't answer the question. There was a very minor change on the choose a password page so that it no longer says anything about a maximum length of 10 characters. You see. (if you look back in old notes) that some students didn't know the difference between their maximum and their minimum and felt that they had to have a 10 letter password (and subsequently forget it). ---------- response 3 04/08 10.59 p cohen ned See my response to note¬$54. --paul ---------- note 64 persnote 04/07 11.36 roper siu With the new persnotes editor, it doesn't catch the non- existent author until after you try to send the note. Boy, can you wipe out a lot of typing this way! Quetzal ---------- response 1 04/07 12.23 parrello uimatha ???????? Are you talking only about replies? Otherwise, it still notifies you exactly when I type in the name. Unless of course the guy got deleted from the course while you were typing... ---------- response 2 04/07 14.13 k mast p Or if the person was really a student. ---------- response 3 04/07 18.02 roper siu This, I think, was the problem. Quetzal ---------- note 71 site ecs 04/07 13.11 little buddy matha the site ecs usage numbers are not adding up again ( on site 15 right now) the individual entries look correct , but the total shown at the top of the page is far too low. LB ---------- response 1 04/07 13.44 hody med right-o also while we are at it... the editor is a cross between syrup and butter this afternoon... sort of a nightmare like the movie where the monster is after you and you can't seem to move! ---------- response 2 04/07 15.04 golden s Undercharging of site ecs has been a problem for the past week or ten days. Work has been done, but the cause isn't known yet. ---------- response 3 04/07 16.49 al mfl Do the syrup and butter go along with Hodycake and sausage? Sorry, Couldn't resist that one. ---------- note 81 error 04/07 14.20 wv gage mtc Info received: Disk I< Error Block Number oor ---------- response 1 04/07 15.27 chabay s What were you doing? ---------- response 2 04/08 13.05 wv gage mtc A lot of water under the old bridge since yesterday. Just don't remember what I was doing at that particular instant. Will try to do better next time. ---------- note 90 NoAids 04/07 16.09 alessi eco108 Aids is not working...no matter what i ask for it tells me that plato does not understand my request. ---------- response 1 04/07 16.15 alessi eco108 No it accepts my requests but returns the wrong features. ---------- response 2 04/07 16.19 celia pso Sorry. aids is being worked on right at the moment. ---------- response 3 04/07 17.08 jim pso fixed. sorry for the failures. that error will not occur again. ---------- note 91 slow edit 04/07 16.09 fay1 rtv362 This afternoon we witnessed a remarkably slow editor. I note that there were only about 350 terminals in use and this site was well under maximum ECS usage (lesson 'E'). What gives? Are there equip. probs? It was not a major problem, but the editor was missing reasonably slow key- presses, taking hours to write a page, etc. Not really complaining, just curious. ---------- response 1 04/07 18.53 hody med it _was_ a _major_ problem and i _am_ complaining... we are again, as in the ecs crisis, reaching the point where funded projects, which are required to deliver courseware at a high rate, can not work in the afternoon hours. unfortunately, and somewhat incomprehensibly, authors, even well paid ones, are extremely hard to reschedule. if the situation doesn't improve, the old specters of limiting game players and other relatively less productive members of the community (to be generous) will rise from their recent burials. ---------- response 2 04/08 11.10 p cohen med Pressing -SHIFT STOP- will release you from an "autobreak," so, if you like to live dangerously and don't mind an occasional unintended condense, you might use this technique when you really get stuck (as I did, after waiting several minutes on a block page with nothing plotted except the top line). --paul ---------- note 96 aids broke 04/07 16.19 fay1 rtv362 There must be a whole bunch of things I am discovering for the first time today or else Plato is goofy. Aids refused to recognize: ansv,wrongv,answer,wrong and would not even recognize '0' from the index (judging student responses). What gives? Temporary probs? ---------- response 1 04/07 16.19 celia pso Yes. Being fixed right now. ---------- response 2 04/07 16.24 bradley iu It does that when you type request from the author page and it won't eat it. Then you get an arrow at the upper-left hand corner of the page and it won't accept anything until you press data. ---------- response 3 04/07 17.09 jim pso fixed. sorry for the failures. that error will not occur again. ---------- note 99 help full 04/07 16.21 dzierzak rhrc help notes FULL!!!!!!!!!! ed ---------- response 1 04/07 16.51 al mfl Well, close to it, anyway! ---------- note 108 ieu data? 04/07 17.58 halvorsen forestry I noticed something strange about the student data collection routines. On datafile entries such as "help keys pressed", the routines ordinarily place the name of the unit in the entry. If the key was pressed in the IEU, the unitname that appears apparently is the last unit ever executed in that lesson. Could this be changed so that if it was the IEU, maybe the unitname could read something like: ****ieu**** Tim Halvorsen ---------- note 112 ≥≥ 04/07 19.00 warner iu tnotes tnotes jatasck5n5/pa5/pb5/pc5/pd5/pe5/pf5/pg5/ph5/pi5/pj5/pk5/pl5/pm5/pn5/po5/pp5/pq5/pr5/ps5/pt5/pu5/pv5/pw5/px5/py5/ pz5/p05/p15/p25/p35/p45/p55/p65/p75/p85/p95/p+5/p-5/p*5/p/ ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇAnd so forth... this is an exact copy, truncated (the original went all the way to 5/p;, with 5/¬p and 5/≥p5/P along the way.) This not was seen when I pressed LAB from the last note (the one by halvorsen of forestry.) The title, name of author, course of author, date and time were blank. ---------- response 1 04/07 19.40 layman matha i also got such a display this morning but (fearing to mis-spell some vital output) just put a summary of it in help notes -- very cabalistic, those engrams!! ---------- response 2 04/07 21.30 rodby ames Just after responding to note ¬$125, I pressed LAB and saw note ¬$127 which looked exactly like warner's. ---------- response 3 04/07 22.49 k mast p It looks like the directory got messed up. Let us know if it happens again. Thanks. ---------- note 114 c-flag? 04/07 19.22 steve cornell This is a re-request of a feature I think would be helpful: Add to the editor, a flag which indicates whether the block you are editing has its condense flag set or not. Example: The top of a block display now is-- BLOCK a = start SPACE = 259 If this block were set to NOT condense, it would show-- *** BLOCK a = start SPACE = 259 When one is working on a new version of an existing block, the condense flags get changed often. It is easy to forget the status of the flag, and I will sometimes stop1 condense without the blocks I want being condensed. I think that this feature would save a lot of condenses. Comments? Steven Lionel/Cornell University ----------response 1 04/07 20.01 woolley p It already takes 20 minutes to plot the top eight lines in the editor during prime time... I don't think we want any extra output on that page. ---------- response 2 04/07 20.47 michael english I like a -p- person who can admit the sorry truth..... ---------- response 3 04/07 20.49 steve cornell Oh, well...one of these days.... I'll suggest it again, (If I'm around), when we get a new computer (if ever). ---------- response 4 04/07 21.24 silver ve Suppose I am editing a block and I press Shift Stop. Could I be warned AT THAT TIME if the block I was in was not condensed, and that I could press BACK to return to the editor, or NEXT to go on? A display like the "someone is in your lesson" warning, in other words, to prevent con- denses when the block the author wanted to see was inadvert- antly not condensed. ---------- response 5 04/08 00.20 john r reading Why not just automatically go to the block display page if the block being edited was partsed out? That's what already happens with 'non-condensable' blocks like common and charset. ---------- response 6 04/08 08.34 daleske ames Speaking of a new computer, when are we going to drop this slow Cyber 73 setup and get into some speed with a pro- duction model Illiac IV? Starkhan ---------- response 7 04/08 08.56 hody med you gonna buy it for us? ---------- response 8 04/08 09.06 parrello uimatha I thought we were all gonna convert to the 8600... ---------- response 9 04/08 13.49 jones mcl ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ but how in heavens will PLATO be run on an illiac IV, it seems that the paralell structure is just the wrong one for PLATO ---------- response 10 04/08 16.32 gilpin peer Just to get things back on the track--to me Steve's idea seems like a reasonable one, Silver's suggestion is a better way to go after it, and John R's suggestion is a still better way. Does anyone else have anything to say on the (original) subject? ---------- response 11 04/08 21.25 steve cornell I like john r's idea even better than my own. I think that this is the logical thing to do, and it won't cost anything in terms of editor overhead. Any other comments? ---------- response 12 04/12 17.25 galcher uimatha But should you only be brought back to the block directory page if the block is partialled out? It seems to me that (not only in the case where you have just created a new block) if you are about to condense and are not sure exactly what blocks are condensed then the first thing you would do is to check the block directory page. But still, considering the idea of showing the partial flag on the top of the screen, what if you are condensing more than ONE block. Then if you cant remember which blocks are condensed. you wouldnt be helped by knowing what the status of this one block was. Maybe you should only be able to STOP1 and test out a lesson from the block directory page. If you do STOP1 from inside a block, then you should be brought to the directory page. Seldon ---------- note 122 site opt 1 04/07 21.03 oberpriller arizona ummm..... In lesson site, option 1: if there are enough users at the site to fill the first page, then the Press NEXT For Next Page appears, despite the fact that there are no users listed on that page, and the page plots as blank. Is this intentional? Or can/will it be fixed? thanks blue kangaroo ---------- response 1 04/07 21.05 michael english picky picky picky ---------- response 2 04/07 21.44 artman cs109 This has been the case in the -E- option from the author mode page for as long as I can remember. (more than this semester alone, cs109 haters!) artman/cs109 ---------- note 124 save L 04/07 21.16 hody med a suggestion to save time, processing and output... many people are satisfied at peak use times to have the editor print only 4 or less lines... how about preserving settings of the "L" option from lesson to lesson-- in fact from sign on to sign on if possible, until reset-- it is a pain to reset it when copying personal notes for example, or going back and forth between blocks and/or lessons.... ---------- response 1 04/07 21.24 rodby ames And, while you're at it, are there plans to be able to specify a micro table and charset to be used while editing a particular lesson? Seems to me I heard rumors to this effect a while back. Sure would be nice for those of use who get used to using a special micro for editing. ---------- response 2 04/07 21.58 blomme s A reduction in the system assumed lines to display will soon be made. When the change-over to new disk allocation scheme is finally made, besides getting 7 block files (and 8; more disk space in the process) a change to get 30 more words from the 1st (directory) block will also occur. Then we will have room to save additional code words and also the associated micro and charset to use when editing. ---------- response 3 04/07 22.52 rodby ames Great! Anyone for long-distance cookies to get this done faster? ---------- response 4 04/07 23.31 telson arizona what happens to lessons already in existence? if less than 7 blocks are in use will it be tough-luck-charlie or is this only for newly created lessons? ---------- response 5 04/07 23.34 blomme s Don't worry; the conversion will be automatic and nothing can go wrong gowronggowronggowronggowronggowrong ---------- response 6 04/08 21.44 syfrig iu ummmmmm........no comment, Rick. ---------- note 129 Parts - 04/07 21.43 dave infe For several months the editor's Parts option from the block index display hasn't worked quite right. Whereas (on a given terminal) the condense-flag marks may plot correctly on the basic block index display, the P option's '-' plotter is quite quirky, often being completely unable to indicate show that a block is partsed out. This occurrence is partly dependant on particular terminals; but not completely, since in other than Parts- state the minus plots correctly. DD ---------- response 1 04/07 22.04 blomme s Please give us a repeatable procedure whereby such erroneous behavior occurs every time and we will fix it immediately. I don't think anyone else has ever mentioned such a problem. There seems to be some possibility from the way you describe this that it could be a hardware failure of the terminal; further information--including whether you find the repeatable behavior to be terminal specific--would help. ---------- response 2 04/08 10.28 judy pso I have frequently seen this "-" problem happen, but not repeatably. The thing I see is definitely a hardware failure. My suggestion is: leave the block page (for instance, enter block "a") and then return to the block page. That almost always fixes the "-"s. ---------- response 3 04/08 12.19 steve cornell I seem to remember someone complaining about this before, and the problem had nothing whatsoever to do with the editor! It seems that the terminal dots where the flags would show were weak from always getting those dots lit up in the editor (I suppose the person in question did a lot of editing), and the dots would sometimes never light! Might this be the problem? Steve Lionel ---------- response 4 04/09 13.28 dave infe1 Well, as I indicated, this only occurs when the terminal is 'weak;' but the normal block-page plotting routine always plots the minuses correctly, whereas the Parts plotter often does nothing visible. Obviously, (1) you have to be at a terminal with weak dots at the crucial locations to get the problem, in which case it will always occur at the blocks at which it occurs; and (2) the block page is doing something right that the P option doesn't do. DD ---------- response 5 04/11 08.55 mcneil uicc The block page is in mode write as opposed to mode rewrite with the P page. Something about mode rewrite brings out the worst in panels. AL9000 ---------- note 138 QUEUE 04/08 00.35 hinton ssu Now let's all open our hymn books to page 83 of 87 and sing that good old song: Sliding down the queue ! Sliding down the queue! Here we sit con-den-sing, and sliding down the queue Waiting through the spring-time, and through the time of har-vest: Here we are con-den-sing, sliding down the queue !!! (the tune is Bringing in the Sheaves, should anyone not recognize it.) ---------- response 1 04/08 01.36 al mflu queuet! ---------- response 2 04/08 03.58 oberpriller arizona we can sing duet if we can all come in on queue blue kangaroo ---------- response 3 04/08 10.23 layman matha how about "when the saints go matching in"? or "precious load"? TomL ---------- note 141 editor 04/08 07.11 pete faa has the editor page been changed so you display the first five lines,≤ ala,one of Mr. Blomme's prior notes. I display 5 lines now as compared to 8....... Pete ---------- response 1 04/08 09.39 cross p Yes. ---------- response 2 04/08 10.25 layman matha huzzah!¬+ I thought it was just another long autobreak!! ---------- response 3 04/08 10.51 hody med it's nice to find out about these things by doing... WHY DON'T YOU ANNOUNCE THEM?!?!?!?!?!?!(preferably ahead of time).... this system isn't a private playground for "p" programmers.... ---------- response 4 04/08 11.02 fuller uimc It is neither a playground nor a vehicle for character assasination. Grow up. ---------- response 5 04/08 11.04 jim g reading You are beginning to show the strain of staring at an orange plasma panel, hody. I suggest you see a doctor! ( Everyone knows this isn't a private playground, even the people of course med are allowed to play when they want to) ---------- response 6 04/08 11.24 bowery comm If im not mistaken, I believe that an "s" programmer must be consulted before any major changes go into the editor or any facet of the system. Any information that you have to the contrary should probably be brought to the attention of Paul Tenczar since he heads systems software development. ---------- response 7 04/08 11.47 michael english Such a "major" change as showing 5 instead of 8 lines in the editor must be truly upsetting to people used to order and predictabilty in the world. ...............your schizophrenia is showing, George.......... ---------- response 8 04/08 11.49 hody med it doesn't matter whether it was an "s" or a "p" programmer- the issue is that changes to the system, both minor and major affect and puzzle a lot of people-- particularly those who are not "plato freaks". i guess the "users' meeting" is the proper place to take this up BUT the suggestion is that: changes, both minor and major which are VISIBLE to the users should be advertised PLAINLY, VISIBLY, and AHEAD of time... preferably bulletin board and new feature notes-- that's what those are for, no? i resent finding out about all kinds of new features and page changes by casual mention in general notes by another user. consider those who aren't the system every day! some are important clients too! ps: i like the change and agree it's minor- it's principle! ---------- response 9 04/08 12.08 roper siu Hody: If you would check general note 125, one of the responses says that the new editor feature would be coming soon. Since that response was written only yesterday... Could anyone want faster service? Quetzal ---------- response 10 04/08 12.38 hody med general notes ain't where that sorta thing should be-- (particularly not in responses to general notes) and changes should be announced more than a day ahead of time (again, this is a general concern-- the case in point is only a trivial example) ---------- response 11 04/08 15.44 grohne psych For what it's worth (I know, about 0), I'm with you, Dr. Hody. ---------- response 12 04/08 17.54 blomme s I made the change...and indeed this intention was noted in response to a previous note that suggested such a change. Another full note could have been written to note the fact that it had indeed been done, I suppose. If this omission has somehow made life more difficult for some people I am sorry. It is only a minor simple change that has been made TENTATIVELY to see if any improvement in the performance of the editor might result. ---------- response 13 04/09 11.42 obrien uicc Well, the trouble of course is that the editor doesn't let you know when it's done plotting. So, considering what the depredations of autobust have been doing lately, I can see where someone might get upset if they waited 5 minutes for lines that were never going to show up. Agreed the change is minor, but in this particular case perhaps some mention should have been made. ---------- response 14 04/09 13.08 friedman csa I agree emphatically with Hody, and have been saying the same sort of thing for some time now:↓ To repeat: ANY change to the system which is visible to the users should be announced, and unless an emergency of some sort requires otherwise, it should be announced BEFORE implementation (not SIMULTANEOUSLY or AFTER)!↓ I also agree with Hody that this ought to be on the agenda of the next Users' meeting. ---------- response 15 04/09 16.24 iezek ames I agree with hody-- this sort of thing should be announced beforehand in bulletin board or new systems features and not as a response to a general note. I am not on the system every day and my first knowledge of this was reading this complaint while paging back through general notes. Mark Iezek ---------- response 16 04/09 18.12 gilpin peer O'Brien's point is well-taken, and no doubt accounts for the Federal-case momentum this exchange has taken on. However, I cannot account for the intimations that are being made that it is CHARACTERISTIC of systems to neglect to make necessary announcements and to generally behave with such a disdain of users that some form of drastic action is called for in correction. To review this particular incident, GN125 was writ- ten by one G. Hody, asking for an alteration to the editor that would possibly speed it up a little. Blomme replied, indicating why the suggested change could not be done now, but promising a quite similar change. Overnight, the promise was made good, and other changes were apparently also made to speed up the system. Should these changes really have waited a full day so people could read an announcement saying Things will be better tomorrow...? ---------- response 17 04/10 20.45 hody med just to complete this little story-- we now find that the editing directives lesson "teach" is also out of date with respect to the new editor... this is potential serious for new users at remote sites who don't "know enough" to press the space bar after _5_ lines... teach was set to tell them about it...after _8_ lines-- now they never see that directive! also a minor point, but an important principle. ---------- note 160 introtutor 04/08 12.32 jim pso the connections between the INTROTUTOR lessons have been revised. the changes should affect only the internal mechanisms of the lessons. if there are any noticeable changes, please send a personal note to :celia" of "pso". these changes were done by Celia Davis. ---------- note 165 gen. notes 04/08 14.12 paulm uimatha As it is set up now, the directory to General Notes will take either the number of the note or the keyword. Would it be possible to be able to type a date and start at the first note of that day? This would save a lot of -BACK-ing through the directory to pick up where one left off a few days earlier. This would be a help to we users who can't make it to the system every day to keep up (there are an many notes written in a single day!) it doesn't _sound_ too difficult, any comments? paulm, uimatha Me ---------- response 1 04/08 15.06 woolley p A general revision of notes is in progress. A feature such as this may be provided. ---------- response 2 04/09 00.45 396k research Huzzah!! Great suggestion...I'm with paulm all the way. It surely would save time. ---------- response 3 04/09 16.18 iezek ames Great suggestion! I often have this problem since I too am not on every day. I hope it is implemented. Mark Iezek ---------- note 168 systems 04/08 16.12 s stone iu For about the fifth time::::::: I would just be tickled blue if someone with the systems staff would put the unit that a student is in when I am trying to condense and there is already someone in the lesson.... PLEASE SOMEONE RESPOND!!!!! I sure hate rewriting the same note over and over again, but if it works, it will have been worth it... Steve Stone ---------- response 1 04/08 16.24 frankel p OK, here is a response for you. We would like to do it, but this feature would, I think, be useful to only a limited number of authors. Anyway, this sort of thing has a low priority. If you want to discuss this, I'll be happy to carry on a -pnote- conversation. ---------- response 2 04/08 17.20 gilpin peer Before somebody takes offense at the phrase, "Anyway, this sort of thing has low priority", I suggest a quick browse through Notes. In this batch of general notes, I find 33 notes, of which 20 are requests for systems to do something, two others are announcements by systems of things done, and the rest are everything else. Most of the requests are minor ones that are fairly classified as "low priority". Any one of them might, of course, be easily and quickly done. But the continuing stream must require most to be "tabled". Else the systems folks would get nothing else done. By the way, the system seems to be running much faster today. I have to say I'm glad that had the high priority. ---------- response 3 04/08 17.39 tenczar s Right John...the highest priority for all the -s- people is to run 500+ terminal...and you can't believe the amount of work that is going into that feat. ---------- response 4 04/08 21.47 hody med we believe it and are fo it! ---------- response 5 04/09 10.31 bruce iehl mtc To add further support to the necessity of delaying some changes to a later time: there are a large number of users who are annoyed and confused (see note 142)by the constant and quick changes to the system. We need to be able to update the users as quickly as we update the system of there are many negative results to what would have otherwise been an improvement to the system. 04/08 16.32 cohs siu Transcript of: THE PLATO EASTER SUNRISE SERVICE.... Performed by the most reverend NIGUL. REV: Let us pray!! Our PLATO who art in U of I CDC Cyber-73 be thy name. Thy system come thy output be done on earth as it is in storage. Give us this day our daily ECS and forgive us our games as we forgive our site directors, and lead us not into games but deliver us from crashes. For thine is the system, and the plasma display, and the storage forever! end lesson (Join us next week when the Reverend will deliver his famous sermon "Gamers in the Hands of an Angry Site Director!T,) ---------- response 1 04/08 16.53 gilpin peer ↓↓↓↓ ...our daily _CPU_... ---------- response 2 04/08 16.55 hecht ed at 1005 write Deliver us, oh almighty Plato, from the wrath of the site director. jh ---------- response 3 04/08 17.30 layman matha Press -BLESS-. ---------- response 4 04/08 18.10 m williams uni $*≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ ≤≤≤≤≤≤Amen,brothers!!!!!!!!!!! $*≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ * *≤ ≤≤≤≤≤≤The Mad Scientist(The Mad Preacher) ---------- response 5 04/09 09.19 jmk pso Judge exit that ye be not judged! ---------- response 6 04/09 18.26 creager cs109 For help from above;HELP1 ---------- response 7 04/09 22.44 stoddard o And forgive angry site directors for the deeds which they would _like_ to perform!!! Yours, Angry Site Director ---------- response 8 04/10 03.57 iezek ames You're WIERD!!!! The EEEZACK!!!! ---------- response 9 04/10 04.01 thiher ames Well at that hour...who's to say? duffer ---------- response 10 04/10 11.56 hinton ssu To be transferred to a higher plane of ethical existence, press SHIFT1. (since I'm stuck with that ridiculous goof, I'll stick to it.) ---------- response 11 04/10 15.15 crooks siu Noli equi dentes inspicere donati Olorin ---------- response 12 04/10 18.08 cindy cdcc Not being a religious fanatic nor desiring to suppress freedom of speech, I hesitate to write this. It should be noted, however, that with any freedom comes an implied responsibility to respect the values of others. A lot of notes have probably been misinterpreted because they did not "read" the way they were supposed to sound. A little forethought might be considered. ---------- response 13 04/10 21.13 sutter cs109 and when HE becometh angry......protect thyself with STOP1. FOR it is written: FOR the day of reckening cometh like an ECS error and passth away with a "loading new system". $Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ SATANΔ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ ---------- response 14 04/10 21.26 monical cs357 dear cindy, i was reading your response to the general note, "Let's Prey." i was shocked at your comment. now i am not a religious fanatic either, however i found this general notice very amusing. what did you mean in your article? perhaps i am dense but i don't understand the comment at all. you know that i like and respect you very much. and i respect your opinions. your friend, paul(monical cs357) ---------- response 15 04/11 17.26 kent iulatin Insults, always insults..... ---------- note 172 new aids 04/08 16.36 jim pso new AIDS..... -lesson- ldone this was written by Darlene Chirolas. please send to "jim" of "pso". ---------- note 180 notmychars 04/08 20.42 stark ames the WIERD THINGS dept..... The owner of this signon, glenn stark, was working on his charset in lesson biom2. Then, as often happens to the best of us, he succumbed to the IRRESISTABLE urge to go play some games! (sorry, massuh, wash my mouth with soap) Anywho... when he came back from his game of wingwar he went back to editing his charset. It seems that his charclear flag was not reset by his gaming efforts, since his charset contained wingwar chars! (Only in spaces where he had chars) We had just been demonstrating monitor mode; could this have anything to do with it??? frisco ---------- response 1 04/08 21.31 steve cornell Well, since there exists the -inhibit charclear- command, it is not unlikely that this is the culprit. However, it does happen on occasion that the charset id does not get set properly, so plato thinks you have one charset, while you really have another. The simple solution is to load a third charset, which will hopefully set the id correctly, then go back and load your proper one. ---------- response 2 04/08 22.18 fritz ames That's what we did... just thot it should be mentioned. He went to another charset later (he can't remember which one) and the same thing happened. ---------- response 3 04/09 02.16 armstrong users There is an inhibit charclear accessable from that lesson, but you must do a -term- + to get to it(a thing that is not widely known), but I don't think that this would do the trick. The inhibit charclear would have to be in the charset editor(which of course it is not). I have had this occasionally happen to me, but I've always passed it off as a fluke, and just loaded a third charset. ---------- response 4 04/09 11.29 p cohen med I do believe that monitoring someone loading a charset is what does it! The charset is loaded correctly at your terminal, but the charset flag is not set. --paul ---------- response 5 04/09 12.28 armstrong users Hmmmmmm, I just tried monitoring another person and tried every way that I could think of to duplicate the order of the incident that frisco describes. Everything I did worked perfectly. If it was the monitor mode that affected things then it must have a weird quirk, such as getting paged at the exact right instant to interfere with the charset flag being set. At any rate I couldn't duplicate it. Looks like we'll just have to take this in stride, as we do with the frequent line errors at remote sites. hal ---------- note 181 r-tv less. 04/08 20.44 fay rtv362 I am interested in contacting anyone at any location who is either: Interested in developing lesson material in the area of broadcasting; OR Interested in using available lesson material in the area of broadcasting; OR Has lesson material available for use in the area of broadcasting. Respondents may write to me in personal notes. Tim Fay, Dept. of R-TV, UI ---------- response 1 04/09 11.21 warner iu I hope you have talked to railing of iu? He has a broadcasting lesson currently under development. ---------- response 2 04/10 19.53 fay rtv362 All interested parties are asked to contact me via personal notes so that I may add their names to the discussion roster. The Plato Broadcast Lesson Symposium (PBLS) central discussion program will be installed (I am told) within the next ten days. All respondents will be notified. $TimFay≤≤≤≤≤≤ TimFay≤≤≤≤≤≤ $Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Time≤≤≤ $TimFay≤≤≤≤≤≤ $TimFay≤≤≤≤≤≤TimFay≤≤≤ ≤≤≤≤≤≤ TimFay≤≤≤≤≤≤ $TimFay≤≤≤≤≤≤ TimFay ---------- note 188 Privacy! 04/08 22.19 curly iu I will mention no names as I am not directly involved (those who are involved may do so if they wish) but here is a true case of what I consider abusing ones powers. One person found that their sign-on had been deleted without warning and worse yet...the couse director had changed the password and read the p-notes before deleting it! As a result of this it seems that somebody might get in trouble for confiding in a friend in supposedly PRIVATE notes. That is the big question..do course directos have the right to do this???? I want all opinions on this subject. Should course directors be allowed to read others notes.. I should think not" curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 1 04/08 22.36 galcher uimatha I brought this up in an earlier (before notes was "cleaned") note and we had many repsonses to other ideas in that note on other subjects no one brought much attention to this particular idea. Courses are under the direct management of their course directors which does give them access (thru illegal means (by changing the persons password)) to the persons signon. Though the idea of zeroing the security code of a person when the password is changed ( from course records ONLY) was discussed, and even if this was changed, this woul not solve the problem of a course director "borrowing" a persons signon and parusing their pnotes. Unfortunately,(yes, Red Sweater this one IS in Websters) I see no easy way of guarding against something like this unless you have someone type in a "pnote security code" which personally I would be against. Seldon ---------- response 2 04/09 09.12 mike b cornell This episode is disturbing, but I can't think of any way to avoid it either. The only thing I can suggest is that course directors be made more aware that there are _personal_ things in personal notes, and that their responsi- bilities as course directors gives them to right to this material. One of the greatest oriticism of computer technology today is that they threaten out privacy. Let's not become the first victims of this, we who seek to make life better through the use of computers. Philosophically, M¬≤↑ˇB ----------response 3 04/09 10.05 parrello uimatha In theory, a course director should be someone you can trust implicity. In my experience, there have been only two exceptions to the rule: 1)People who have stolen the code to the course. 2)College or high-school age types who are enjoy- ing their first taste of power and trying to The first shall always be a problem, and the second requires the authors in the course to be more careful than they would ordinarily be. ---------- response 4 04/09 10.17 ken cornell This is truly the problem of any good dictatorship. That is what the little peons below you think of you (even if it isn't anything there is always the fear they maybe plotting your downfall!). Seriously this isn't a problem at all since there is an effective method of communication which MAY still even be private otherwise known as the U.S. Postal service. In other words,and let's face the truth, the purpose of pnotes is not to inform your friend in Ill. of your most recent sexual conquest. But, rather to discuss personal problems you have with your lesson with someone your trust or may be collaborating with. Therefore, what is in pnotes should not be personal material but rather material which deals with your lesson which might not be of sufficient interest to put in general notes. dictatorally yours, ken rush ---------- response 5 04/09 10.30 michael english Disagree, Ken. The purpose of PNOTES may have once been as you describe, but its astonishing success is due to the fact that computers are beginning to allow an information revolution to take place. Putting aside "personal" information, private administrative communication has been vastly speeded up on PLATO. What once took $2.54 and three days to get written, typed, mailed and received can now be ACTED upon in a matter of hours or minutes. Ask any of the large project directors to comment upon their improved efficiency and capacity to handle a mountain of administrivia with a minimum of effort due to PNOTES. Just wait until GNOTES is released..... ---------- response 6 04/09 10.31 b sherwood phys In most cases I would think that reading someone's pnotes deliberately in this way should be sufficient cause to throw the person off the system. Other than imposing this penalty, perhaps we could do this: if the password is changed by editing the course, make the pnotes unreadable until reactivated by a PLATO system person. ---------- response 7 04/09 10.49 jim g reading One "vote, for your solution, Burce. ---------- response 8 04/09 11.07 mike b cornell Bruce, you have the right idea. This is an unfor- givable breach of personal privacy and should command a commensurate penalty. Your suggestion about reactivation of pnotes files will probably go a long way to solving the problem without resorting to that drastic penalty. M¬≤ˇB ---------- response 9 04/09 11.42 p cohen med Just a thought: How about making the reading of one's pnotes contingent on the particular password in effect when the last pnote was delivered. I.e., if a course director changes someone's password, then trying to read his pnotes results in a message "wrong password!" That person can regain access to his pnotes by changing his password back to the one he was using. --paul ---------- response 10 04/09 11.54 galcher uimatha There is only one fault I can find with Bruce's method of securing pnotes. What if the person is shrewd enough to call a systems person and tell him that someone had gone into course records and changed his password. Then the systems person could (and probably would) help the person out and change the flag indicating readability back to its normal state. I do however like the idea brought up by cohen wherein this relys on something already passed which the course director has no control over. Seldon ---------- response 11 04/09 12.56 fritz ames GNOTES? ---------- response 12 04/09 13.19 friedman csa Everybody's upset on the assumption (stated in the basic note) that the course director READ the deleted person's notes before deleting his signon. I wonder how widely known is the option that a course director has to destroy all pnotes attached to a given signon (only if the signon has already been deleted). Speaking only for myself, I can't imagine reading someone's pnotes just to help1-delete them one by one, when I could do them all with a very few keypresses. Unless the course director was just plain nosy; do you know that he really did read them, or did you just assume that? ---------- response 13 04/09 15.07 seeman med ---------- response 14 04/09 16.59 parrello uimatha I think everyone is being a little paranoid here. Most course directors are very responsible, and, strangely, so are most of the people who accidentally or on pur- pose discover a security code to a course. The exceptions are usually kids who are new to the system and have some perverse urge to make life miserable for their fellows. Fortunately, such types usually do not have the expertise to head up a project or steal a security code. I swear if this note continues someone's gonna suggest we use voice-prints or fingerprints to view personal notes... ---------- response 15 04/09 19.45 blomme s Our intention is (and has been for some time) that all the "loopholes" by which a course director could gain access to anyone's personal notes be closed. There are a couple of devious ways whereby a course director can currently read someone's personal notes--we view this as clearly wrong and definitely plan to make the various checks and changes to stop this from happening. Finding the right way to handle all the situations may require some time yet, unfortunately. A course director has the right to create and destroy records but should not have the right to view personal correspondence. In the not too distant future, the deletion of a record will also automatically delete any personal notes associated with that record; this will be both a convenience for the course director and "security" for the user. ---------- response 16 04/09 21.00 schroeder iumusic one problem: Rick, in a case which I mentioned in the note following this one, I had a person who just transferred courses. I wanted to clear the space, but first went in his signon to resend his notes to his new signon, plus a note explaining exactly what I did and why. Before any drastic changes are made, there should be a way of resending his notes to his new signon, if he has one. The guy told me later that it didn't occur to him to send his notes to his new signon, but needed the info contained in it. Therefore, he was glad that I sent them. If there is another way to resend notes, great! (as there may be more transfers out of my course) But I consider what I did responsible. Nate ---------- response 17 04/09 22.34 blomme s Sorry, I do not agree that anyone should have access to personal notes other than the person to whom they are addressed. The individual HIM/HER SELF can sign in to transfer notes. The course director has a perfect right to go ahead and delete someone if space is essential of course. It seems a bit strange to store information needed on a long term basis in personal notes (especially with the note save option available now), so my sympathy for someone who lost "essential information" in the deletion of his personal notes is somewhat limited. It may be that we can also provide a "moving" service that transfers not only a record but the personal notes that belong to it as well--that seems a perfectly rational sort of choice or option to have available. ---------- response 18 04/10 09.23 schroeder iumusic Great! If I had had that option, I certainly would NOT have read the notes, but just transferred them, and say good-bye. Another necessary option, as been mentioned before, is the possibility of cleaning out note-files for cooperation even if records do exist (granted, am for the necessary messages that have all been brought up). Nate ---------- response 19 04/10 09.55 judy pso What about the poor soul who forgets his/her password? Are those notes going to be lost forever? ---------- response 20 04/10 11.24 k mast p I would hope that for people who 'move' that they not only transfer and delete all their notes, but they also use the new "turn-off" feature of personal notes to leave a message saying where they can by contacted in the future. All it takes is a little planning ahead. Judy, people who forget their their passwords should have to deal with systems persons (i.e. maureen or bill) to get them back. It will mean a little more of a hassle than going to your course director, but I think that is the price one pays for security. ---------- response 21 04/10 11.45 fay rtv362 I appreciate the philosophical and ethical issues involved in this discussion and would like to add the following ob- servations: a) I tend to agree w/blomme that the contents of pnotes should be accessible only to the person for whom they were originally intended; b) The fact remains that whenever electronic modes of communication are utilized someone, somewhere _will_ have access to the communication, regardless of whether the access is legal, moral, or ethical. The rule is: when in doubt, be paranoid! I ask some of the 'oldtimers' to harken back to a not too distant past time when it seems DOD (or related agency) came down hard on a discussion being carried out on Plato which the DOD people misinterpreted as a call for 'political mobile- ization'. There will alway be a big brother somewhere. ---------- note 194 pnotes 04/09 09.37 little buddy matha in relation to the privacy issue when course notes gets full , the course director can delete notes, I don't like the idea of deleting notes without reading them , and i like the idea of reading them even less. on the occasions when i have done this, mostly what i look for is the date of the note -- the rule being that anything ancient can go. rather than change the password and sign the records in to read the notes, a little information for the course director would be helpful in judging what should be deleted The date of the last note , or whether there are any 'new notes' would both be very useful. this would aid in making decisions without reading other peoples mail. ( recycle your notes space , folks!) LB ---------- response 1 04/09 09.53 golden s I do not believe that unauthorized reading of anyone's personal notes can be justified. I have deleted notes for authors who are no longer active, but those notes went unread. ---------- response 2 04/09 10.35 b sherwood phys But it would indeed be useful to have some info about the dates before deleting them..... ---------- response 3 04/09 11.32 kaufman uimc Occassionally, some of our authors have changed sign-ons. Before I got around to deleting their old sign-on, they received some p-notes. Since some of the authors used plato infrequently and were difficult to reach by phone, I signed in under their sign-on and transferred their notes WITHOUT reading the notes. I, nonetheless, was not happy about this method. I would prefer a way of transferring p-notes without being able to see the note. Joe Kaufman ---------- response 4 04/09 12.16 schroeder iumusic and I agree with kaufman, as I have also had to transfer notes to people no longer in course, but in another course. However, I will bring this up: It happened some time ago, but I wrote a help-note and titled it "screwnote", because there was something about notes that had a bug (absolutely NO other connotation was even thought of, much less intended). (may have been a gen-note, forget now) of some sorts. well, the next day, I found my password blanked and went into my records to read a note saying that in effect HE had interpreted (sp) the title wrong, and since there was no other responses to it, deleted my honest, although possibly dumb question. (this was under syfrig/iu) (he wasn't even the course- code to course) He was also very hot about it for me asking a 'dumb' question like that anyway. ---------- response 5 04/09 12.44 fuller uimc Like many have said... just kick the b*st*rd off the system in the FIRST place... people who do idiotic things like Nate describe have _NO_ place on this system. Putting in one check for irresponsible people won't solve problem of such children. They'll always find another place to play... The option to forward pnotes would be nice tho... Dave Fuller ---------- response 6 04/09 13.12 little buddy matha to golden of s: you might change your mind about what was 'justified' if you had seen that 'recycle your notes space' message about a hundred times . if you force me to keep our notes file 'clean', then you had better give me some tools to do the job with. and i still say let us pay for the space and take that damn message away! LB ---------- response 7 04/09 14.21 galcher uimatha In response to the last reply, I really dont think that taking it out on one systems person (the one who answered in this note with a systems response) is the proper way to take any positive action about this. As for the "note recycled" message, I would advise you to send notes to the authors in your course (especially the ones who seem to collect many notes- I'm sure _all_ those notes cant be SO important that deleting one or two of them every once in a while could be dreadfully harmful. As for your complaint about the systems people forcing you the tools to do what you "have to", I dont see where your are "forced" to do anything. It's nide to be able to keep notes but if the course doesnt work together cooperatively then it is NOT (cont) ---------- response 8 04/09 14.42 galcher uimatha (cont) NOT the systems peoples fault. It is the fault of the people in the course. As for "paying" for space, I dont see how you could "pay" for that space, since unless you have the unlisted number to the systems peoples favorite pizza place or the number to the Keebler cookie factory (elf hot line) I dont see where paying for space would be feasible. And then worst of all you pick a systems person who has not had much(correct me if I amd wrong mr golden) to do with the actual writing of lesson NOTES. Please direct all complaints in the future to either Dave Woolley (woolley of p) or Kim Mast (k mast of p). Hoping your notes space isn't filled, Seldon ---------- response 9 04/09 14.49 baker me First, I agree with fuller. Anyone caught reading anyone elses notes should be kicked of the system. In reference to the transfer of pnotes, what will stop a course director from transfering the notes to his own signon or one he created for the purpose?? Fred Baker ---------- response 10 04/09 16.15 k mast p I'm confused. Exactley what is the justification for reading someone else's notes? Is it that a notesfile is almost full and you want to delete notes for one of the worst offenders? I don't consider that an excuse, but it is a problem for which other, more private solutions (could) exist. Perhaps the option to allow a course director to delete others notes should work whether or not the person's records stille exist. The following things should probably be changed at the same time: 1) The person who got his notes deleted (it his records still exist) should get a message saying his notes were deleted and by whom. 2) All the notes that were deleted should be sent back to the original sender...with an appropriate message attached. Would that solve your problem LB/ Now then, what other reasons do people have for reading other peoples notes? ---------- response 11 04/09 16.36 black cdcc Actually, I think the whole discussion started with the problem of someone reading someone else's notes for no reason. Something like being able to delete notes while the sign-on still exists, particularly if coupled with the date of the most recent note, or some such, would, as far I can gather from the discussion, take care of the majority of the problems. However, that doesn't solve the problem of course directors reading others personal notes with _no_ justification. Blackstar ---------- response 12 04/09 19.31 layman matha ↓ b*st_o_rd ---------- response 13 04/10 11.49 hinton ssu Could pnotes have a sign like the "last edited by" thing on the author data page ? And then if you found out someone had readthem, you could punch him in the nose or take other appropriate action, like writiing to complain of gross a- buse of powers. ---------- response 14 04/10 11.54 roper siu But would it do any good if the person entered through your signon? Quetzal ---------- response 15 04/10 20.17 galcher uimatha As far as I can determine, the only person who can look at YOUR pnotes is YOU unless you show them to someone who is standing next to you or watching your screen via the monitor ability in the talk options. So what good would it do to put a "last edited by" feature in it for? YOU would always be the last editor and therefore render the whole procedure useless. Seldon ---------- note 212 site weird 04/09 12.28 oberpriller arizona hmmm...... I just went in to lesson site, and after typing the site number, then the password, I was asked to type the site number again. Thinking I had hit a wrong key first time, I did it, and it took me right into the lesson without asking for the password. Is this supposed to happen or is it a bug? It does not seem to be repeatable, but it has happened to me several times, apparently randomly. blue kangaroo ---------- response 1 04/09 13.09 holt ve I think your idea is right. You typed the wrong site number first. The sec code you typed in didn't match, so you were asked for the site number again. This time the sec code you just had typed did match and you could go in, (does that make sense? - it is repeatable). elsbeth holt, vetmed ---------- response 2 04/09 14.22 oberpriller arizona i think you are right.....but in that case i would have expected to have to type the password again.....thanks.. blue kangaroo ---------- response 3 04/09 14.47 galcher uimatha No you wouldnt. When you type the password for a site in it is the same as typing in your lesson security code. (Matter of fact, that's exactly what you are doing..) Therefore if you typed in the wrong site, you would have typed in the correct security code for YOUR site but it would have not matched the site code(necessarily) to the one you accidently typed the first time. Then when you tried the second time it would have taken it as it would have if you would have typed it from the author mode page (try it). Hoping your news is good news, *******$≤≤≤≤≤≤≤ Seldon ---------- response 4 04/10 11.58 fay rtv362 $I7ve≤≤≤≤I7ve≤≤≤≤i7ve≤≤≤≤i've≤≤≤≤i've≤≤≤≤I've tried lesson site several times and would like to know: what is it (which may answer the second question) and why is it so guarded? $Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim≤≤≤ Tim Fay ---------- response 5 04/10 20.21 galcher uimatha Some of the abilities of lesson -site- are to be able to limit who has access to the site, being able to back someone off that particular site(or everyone) and to send them a message. And although it is nice to see what lesson everyone is in, these other abilities, if put in the hands of a careless user could cause havoc (or some other form of overall grief)... ---------- note 223 instr.file 04/09 14.40 lederman cerlcc For those of us who use the system router, it sure would be nice if: a) The inspect code were sufficient to view the instructor file catalog and router index. As it is now, only the security code works..and this seems inconsistent. b) there were some way to determine what lessons are actually chosen for the router index. As it is now, there is no way to tell exactly which lessons are used if the instructor sets up an index and rewrites the descriptions which appear on the index page. Could and option be provided perhaps in the leslist editor of the instructor file to list such lessons? We who allow our instructors the freedom of maintaining the course rosters and indexes...would be most appreciative. Thanks.... Barb ---------- response 1 04/09 16.51 chabay s Both suggestions sound very reasonable. Will try to get to (a) soon --- (b) will take a bit longer. ---------- note 224 library 04/09 14.41 celia pso Two weeks from today, a -use- code will be placed on lesson "library". PSO is planning some changes to "library" that we hope will make it more convenient. One consequence of the changes is that the block names may change frequently; and -use- commands referring to "library" could suddenly become unreliable. If you are -use-ing "library", you should _S_ave the code and insert it an your own lesson. If this causes any problems, please let me know. ---------- note 228 restart 04/09 15.05 lederman cerlcc When using the system router and specifying an individual curriculum for a student, when I choose the lesson for a student to start in....could the routine than ask me if want the student to finish whatever lesson he may be in currently (if a restart is in effect)...As it is now, if I don't remember to clear the restart from records, the student must finish the lesson he is currently in...I would think that the usual case would be to want that restart cleared since I am specifying a particular lesson in which I want the student to start. student must finis One peculiarity, however, is the fact that IF the curriculum specifies lessons A,B and C....and the student finishes some other lesson before starting on his curriculum...he doesn't then go to A...to start as chosen by the instructor...but to lesson B...Is this consistent? Thanks.....barb ---------- response 1 04/09 15.52 andersen s -restart- stuff should probably be cleared whenever an instructor puts the student in an individual curriculum.. Ruth Chabay or I will look at this soon.. ---------- response 2 04/09 16.29 lederman cerlcc Thanks for such a quick response...sounds good!! barb ---------- note 230 Job 04/09 15.10 rader s Notice: We are now looking for one or two student operators for the summer. If you are interested, contact me via personal notes or call 333-0301 (but I will be gone Friday and Saturday). The position will be held open until April 16th. ---------- response 1 04/09 19.21 m williams uni What kind of operators?????? The Mad Scientist ---------- response 2 04/09 19.53 artman cs109 what experience (sp?) is needed? an interested but _very_ inexperienced, artman/cs109 ---------- response 3 04/09 20.25 flory mfl I believe he means the Plato machine operators, i.e., those tireless fellows (and gal) who languish in room 166 CERL handing out prints and fielding the complaints of irate callers. m. Flory ---------- response 4 04/09 21.09 rader s Yes, PLATO operators handle prints, help manage the CERL classrooms, and are responsible for keeping the computer running when there is no software/hardware testing. This is a student hourly position; no previous experience as a computer operator is required, but it might help; experience with TUTOR and on the PLATO system can also help. ---------- response 5 04/12 23.30 creager cs109 What about next semester???(For those of us who won't be around over the summer!) creager/cs109 ---------- response 6 04/13 13.54 wells ee340 Any age limits?????? am very interested .........AZOG........ ---------- note 247 Seminar 04/09 21.06 ken b cccs Announcement: PLATO Computer-based Education/Stystems Seminar A COMPUTER-BASED COURSE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM Richard C. Anderson Professor of Educational Psychology and Psychology Thursday, April 17, 1975 Engineering Research Lab Room 351e at 3:30 p.m. (Abstract follows) Coffee will be served at 3:10 p.m. ---------- response 1 04/09 21.16 ken b cccs A B S T R A C T The Course Management System was designed to integrate books, computers and live teachers in an effective manner for courses with large numbers of students and instructors. The logistic problems associated with multifaceted instruc- tional programs were solved, in part, by using PLATO -- a computer assisted instruction system centered at the Univer- sity of Illinois. Students in the computer managed course acquire basic information and concepts from individual read- ing. Their attention to the material ........ ---------- response 2 04/09 21.21 ken b cccs ...... is maintained and their progress monitored by a pre- viously developed study management system. Lectures and standard quiz sections are little used. The time of in- structors is invested in remediation for students having trouble mastering the core curriculum and in teaching semi- nars. The role of the computer is to manage study behavior, administer on-line achievement tests, and schedule group tutorial and seminar sessions. The system has been tried out in an introductory college economics course with an enrollment of 360 students with generally favorable results. ---------- note 248 network 04/09 21.08 morgan arizona When are they going to keep lesson "Network" up to date...??? Someone told me that the site in Germany dose not exsist anymore and I think there have been some new additions to plato? ---------- response 1 04/09 21.27 steve cornell Also our site director's name is spelled wrong (it's Aikin, not Aikins). I often feel that the US map doesn't convey the idea of 700+ terminals across the country. I think if we discovered who was in charge of "network", we could inform them of changes. ---------- response 2 04/09 22.43 carter comm Please don't complain to me. Our group started network when there were maybe 100 terminals. Al Avner correctly pointed out at the time that keeping it up to date is a large task. The last I heard, George Myers, the head operator, was in charge (myers of o?). I would personally like to see network programs for the other emerging PLATO networks. ---------- response 3 04/10 10.25 celia pso Yes, George Myers (myers of o) is in charge of network. You can find this out in aids...DATA--network; or under author resources. ---------- response 4 04/10 20.30 morgan arizona Fans I have been given the word that lesson network is on its way to getting completed. One reason being that they don't expect a large quanity of new sites in the near future. ---------- note 256 politics 04/09 23.07 bittner pfw to all interest parties.... i have yet to find someone who can pass the bill introduced in lesson "chairman" if ya think ya have the political proweress to pass this bit of legislation, i dare ya to try..ya can cheat by looking at the coding, but if that is the only way in which ya can do it too bad... ....SUNDANCE... ---------- response 1 04/10 09.54 jordan english well, i guess i resign and start my political campaign. i got the billed passed by increasing student grants to 75;, funding only accredited, but not denominational small colleges, holding fast on federal standards (but not emphasizing my position in the report). as for politics, i like to threaten non support of the opposing party members, have the house leader introduce the bill, meet personally with key people to press importance of their vote, have the president do personal contacts with congress. sorry if i blow your game, pfw, but this is a public form and the challenge was jut too smug. on to law school. pauline ---------- response 2 04/10 10.40 hatch mflu Oh come on! I tryed that lesson and all you have to do is take all the moderate measures to win. My final vote was 230 for, 204 against, and 1 absent. It was a fun lesson.............. $*≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ **≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ HULK ---------- response 3 04/10 10.42 parrello uimatha Since I was against the bill to begin with,I think I did a marvelous job of assuring its failure while appearing to push hard for its passage. Just another day in the life of Our Congress... ---------- response 4 04/10 14.35 steve cornell I also passed the bill, by not employing any "sneaky" tactics. I tried to do things that wouldn't upset the opposition, such as let anyone suggest amendments, reason things out, rather than threatening them, etc. I got 225 for. It isn't as hard as you thing, Sundance, and it is fun. ---------- response 5 04/10 14.40 roberta mfl I just used common sense - and hardly looked at the bill or its contents and was able to get the bill passed. Sorry - it's not very hard to do. ---------- response 6 04/10 14.43 schroeder iumusic well, guess who's not cut out to be a politician????? I defeated it twice, and wasn't even against the bill.... oh well...stick to music.... Beethoven ---------- response 7 04/10 21.36 jones mcl Since I was against the bill to begin with, I think I did a marvelous job of assuring its failure while appearing to push hard for its passage. Just another day in the life of our congress...↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇjones ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆjones ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇReally it was a rather well written lesson, my complements to the author. One detail however...↑ˇ when using the data key, the replot of the information is time consuming and annoying. Possibly ¬NEXT- and -BACK- could be active here in order to scan the available data. No need for the data index and data to share the same page. j ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆj ---------- response 8 04/10 22.00 dale texas and I got 234 for......... thePhantom ---------- response 9 04/10 22.19 borrino ed It looks we have an prospective Student-Senate in our very midst. I must confess that I also passed the bill. Getting a bill through Congress is easy, getting elected takes the talent. If you don't believe me check out candi, it's not like the book. bb ---------- response 10 04/11 19.07 396k research Very interesting lesson. My final vote was 210 for, 205 against, 20 absent. Suggestion for the author: it would be nice to have some feedback while running the lesson as to whether the last choice you made was good, bad, indifferent, etc. ---------- response 11 04/14 16.19 don emerick mtc Just a note a historical interest to users of lesson chairman. The lesson was originally written for the late PLATO III system under funding by Ford Fdtn. M.G. Weinbaum, Dept Pol.Sci. U≤↑ˇI ↑ˆ, provided most of the texts that lesson users see; J. Zais ¬+ J.G. Peters, recently of the same dept, did the original programming. At the request of S. Andes, Mr. Peters provided us with a copy of the PLATO III text and code last fall. Since then, Mr. Andes and I have put the lesson back together in our spare moments, with some minor revisions of the code to enhance the view in the lesson. Thx for the most gratifying remarks... I will pass them on to the others, not the least of which was F. Coombs, now of College of Ed. U≤↑ˇI↑ˆ, who obtained the original Ford funding mentioned above. ---------- note 257 ecircle! 04/09 23.49 daleske ames Have developed ecircle command using Elaine Avner's code from library... of the form... unit ecircle(r,x,y,a,b,e) Where r through b are the same parms as standard circle and e is the eccentricity. What is nice is that it too is compatible with rdraw commands (sizeable, rotatable partial arcs etc.) [not useable in SD or ID though] Code is available on request from me via pnotes. Am testing it in lesson -empires- trying to optimize for speed and useability.... John ---------- note 260 openhouse 04/10 08.29 jim ve COLLEGE≤ arrow place * * somewhere in your lesson, have the following: * unit arrlot iarrow myarrow inhibit arrow * unit myarrow at place write ¬6 $$ or whatever your arrow is ---------- response 3 04/10 21.53 b sherwood phys Why not arrow place‎wherever ? ---------- response 4 04/11 11.29 obrien uicc For once you missed the pernt, Bruce...the fellow wants to plot a special character in place of the arrow. ---------- response 5 04/12 02.33 rodby ames No, Obrien, you missed Bruce's simplification of the code. I checked it out, and it works! pernt? ---------- response 6 04/12 09.25 m williams uni Im not sure but i think you could try this: arrow 1515 inhibit arrow at 1515 write your character The Mad Scientist ---------- response 7 04/13 12.38 s stone iu The inhibit arrow goes before the arrow comand.. I am fully aware of the fact that it can be done, but it costs too much(in terms of coding) to bee very practical.. ---------- note 299 suggestion 04/10 18.57 dave matha It would be nice to have: a) The touch panel disabled on the execution error page This would be nice because the touch which gets the error can often be followed by another touch which NEXT's past the error display page. b) A warning when a define set is almost too much It's hard to tell when a define set is nearing the "too much" limit; I just added a simple define to a -use-d block and put a file I was not working on over the limit. If I had been warned the last time I condensed that file, I could have remembered to check it whenever I changed the used defines. ---------- response 1 04/11 01.30 s gooch p I have looked into a) extensively. This problem stems from a complex set of interactions in the formatter, but now that Don Lee has returned from his vacation, it can probably be fixed fairly soon. Thank you for the reminder. ---------- note 300 hail/cdc 04/10 18.59 pitts stmary Hail CDC Cyber, full of microcircuits, CERL is with ye, BLESSED ARE YE AMONG COMPUTERS, and blessed is the fruit of your uterus, PLATO. Holy CDC, fathermother of CERL, pray for us authors, now and at the hour of our CRASH≤≤__≤_____! AMEN! ---------- response 1 04/10 19.03 pitts stmary AND WE ARE A c a t h o l i c S C H O O L !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- response 2 04/10 19.21 jim g reading Just be careful or the CYBER 73 might get some funny notion about being God and "rest" on the seventh day! ---------- response 3 04/10 19.34 luth cccs The order requires one must burn incense when talking with the great one, and one must twice daily bow in the direction of CERL. He will be pleased and grant faithful subjects less errors and to all there will be fewer apocalypses. --------- response 4 04/10 19.54 hinton ssu Ibi eamus iter ! (Te rogamus, audi nos.....) ---------- response 5 04/10 20.13 temmerman css May PLATO have mercy on your soul! ---------- response 6 04/10 20.51 sutter cs109 UNFORTUNATLY..............condemed to the outer world of IBM.....(soon) $Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ SATANΔ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ Δ≤ ---------- response 7 04/11 08.31 meers wright unfortunat_e_ly scooped you Red ---------- response 8 04/11 12.27 weeks uimc Seems like a case of terminal Deus ex Machina (Theos ek mechanes?). ---------- response 9 04/11 16.44 sorcerer iumusic what happens if there are any Irish around? your friendly neighborhood $*≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ *≤ Wizard ---------- response 10 04/13 14.03 wells ee340 ............................................................ ............................................................ ...................heaven................................... ...................forbid............................................................................................... .....................AZOG................................... ---------- note 305 leslist ed 04/10 19.52 keith s matha The new leslist editor is really appreciated! ---------- response 1 04/10 20.27 chabay s Your thanks should be directed to Brand Fortner, who wrote the new leslist editor. ---------- response 2 04/11 00.32 fuller uimc Thankee, Brand! ----------- response 3 04/11 11.08 celia pso Nice, Brand! ---------- response 4 04/11 13.05 railing iu Now if you will just finish the great start you made and have the leslist drop one block if it is not in use, it will be about as near to perfect as you can make it. (That is untill other people come up with new ideas.) Please add this feature!!!!! Malkin ---------- response 5 04/11 13.18 fuller uimc Er... it is not within Brand's power to perform such a feat. Unlike the charset editor, which plays directly with the disk to pull off chars, the leslist editor utilizes the same commands and procedures as outlined in aids, under leslist... nothing more, and nothing less. The copy that you edit in the leslist editor is the _ECS_ copy of the leslist, the same copy that you could get with the leslist functions on your own. The present leslist editor is provided as a convinience. You'll just have to wait to get a response from systems... Dave Fuller ---------- response 6 04/11 13.58 roper siu Did you notice "foreword" on the HELP page though? Just picky I Guess. Quetzal ---------- note 308 Mass Com 04/10 20.02 fay rtv362 In continuance of the discussion began many general notes ago about people at various locations interested in: a) Development of Broadcasting and Other Related Lesson Materials; b) Use of Such Materials; c) And any Mass Communications Courses and Materials... I will be circulating a roster of the participants in this ongoing discussion to all respondents soon. Also, within the next ten days (I am told) we will have available to us a separate discussion program (Plato Broadcast Lesson Symposium, for lack of a better name) which will alleviate the need for cluttering the general notes file and the need to send a flurry of per- sonal notes to each other. Participants please send resp. to personal notes. TimFay ---------- note 317 politics2 04/10 20.43 bittner pfw For those interested parties..lesson chairman is not my lesson!!!! but thanks for the responses concerning this simulation.... in my opionion it was a great simulation of the real thing.. ......SUNDANCE.... ---------- response 1 04/14 16.21 don emerick mtc See response 11 to note 257 re history of lesson chairman. ---------- note 327 privacy 04/10 22.44 golden s A day ago or so there was considerable debate about the possibility of course directors reading personal notes. From that exchange of notes and from conversations here at CERL, I conclude that there is general agreement that personal notes aught to be private and that CERL aught to take action against anyone who invades that privacy. That does make for some difficulties for course directors. As course director I went through a long period of begging authors to delete notes...still the notes file was full most days. I then reduced the number of notes each author could receive. All is well now. I also destroy personal notes of authors who have not been active for a long time and are not likely to return. I do not read them first. ---------- response 1 04/11 08.46 kaufman uimc How did you reduce the number of notes that authors may receive? I asked Kim Mast for a somewhat similar option but he said it would be a real mess. Joe Kaufman ---------- response 2 04/11 09.00 golden s There is a provision for changing the notes limit in units of six notes. It would be nice if it were changeable in smaller units, but that hasn't been done yet. ---------- response 3 04/11 17.06 al mfl Along the privacy line, it would be nice if we could insert lines from the save buffer into note space just as we can the other way. In personal notes this would allow people to hash their notes before sending them. In help notes this would allow displaying the code that is giving the author the problems. I realize that this is no solution to the problem of course directors reading personal notes, but it would be a nice addition. ---------- note 330 ciao, tuna 04/11 01.33 ostuni iu I've never written anything in wet cement before, you know.... The other day, you know, well, they were working on the stadium and all, you know, patching it all up...and I thought, well, no one's watching. And I guuess I was in a pretty good mood. And I imagined that I saw someone else doing it too. So anyway, in a slightly unoriginal manner, but true nonetheless, Now I'm no religious fanatic, you understand, but as it was there was nothing else that I really wanted at that moment to continue. Now I kinda like Kafka a lot, but I'm no religious fanatic. I like Kafka a lot. Want this teabag? Then throw it away. I think I ruined my finger doing it, but I could never be sure. Even though I've never read any of his books. I guess I have to like him because Fellini likes him. It's pretty truthful, man. It never comes out the way I w ---------- response 1 04/11 07.39 ken cornell According to all the 'title pages' on this system help is available...perhaps you should use it? ---------- response 2 04/11 09.48 guerra uimc Sounds to me like someone came into some good weed (acid?) last night and then decided to put in a couple of hours on PLATO. I'm glad I don't have to use whatever lesson he was working on. ---------- response 3 04/11 09.52 little buddy matha truly a note of general interest . . . LB ---------- response 4 04/11 11.01 sam martin ve Kafka and Becket Two of a kind Guanantee your mind Will go down behind ---------- response 5 04/11 11.22 weeks uimc Burma shave? ---------- response 6 04/11 12.42 clarkson iu genius......pure,unadulterated genius. (but why did he omit the chicken noodle soup?) ---------- response 7 04/11 14.41 seslar pfw HMMMMMMMM............. I agree with the good pot (acid) theory 10000000; Sounds like someone totally lost it while looking at the good old plasma screen.... Or maybe it was that Dave (the little person who lives in the screen) got a little loose and went wild with a perfectly legitimate note...... we'll never know I guess....... big deal.... Yessongs ---------- response 8 04/11 15.05 weeks uimc ORANGE sunshine, maybe? ---------- response 9 04/12 10.56 bowery rhrc The guy is definitly a cyberneticist. And to add my small bit to the discussion.... It has been shown that the optimum base for the operation of a computational device is e which is closer to 3 than 2 so let us all start learning trinary and tridecimal(bˇ1ˇ3) t0712 0436 0c01 1807 0816 ---------- response 10 04/12 13.09 jones mcl hmmm...↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↓methinks the man have some troubles↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇ↓there is a lesson 'jones' that may help the poor boy, it gets in nice conversations with people, might help. ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ jones ---------- note 337 no stop1 04/11 09.26 meers wright Today, a student signed on and received a message 'Now preparing lesson please wait'.... He left after 10 minutes, and five minutes later we still could not back him off... An attempt to condense a lesson showed that there was a condense queue of about 46 people.. He was apparently number 46.. We could not back him off from anywhere. STOP1 at his terminal did not do it, and neither could he be backed off from course records or by using the site director options. This inability to use STOP1 to back a student off has been reported before but no one from a systems level has ever replied. I think it would be a good idea to enable STOP1 to send the student back to the system router index pages.. I also think it would be nice if this note were not ignored, and some reasonable answer given.. It is now 22 minutes later. ---------- response 1 04/11 09.41 meers wright it is now 32 minutes later... I had to go into course records, and figure out what lesson he was trying to condense... I then condensed the same lesson, and being only 1 of 32 people in the queue, got the lesson in 15-20 seconds.. Once I received the lesson, he also got the same lesson, and could be shift-stopped... This does not solve the problem, and the complaint as written previously still stands. The solution was a round-about way that should not have to be resorted to (or thought of)... ---------- response 2 04/11 10.35 bill kennedy cha Same problem here at site 10.. Students are always on fixed times for plato use. Agree some type of system fix is needed. ---------- response 3 04/11 11.26 judy pso See "help notes ¬$226" ---------- response 4 04/11 13.25 bill kennedy mtc Sorry, but help note 226 doesn't answer the request for a fix on not being able to shift/stop when a system problem occurs, and students can't use the terminal. This mornings example of an oversight is the basis for the request. It could happen again. Thanks for listening ---------- response 5 04/11 14.54 ken cornell May I suggest that the length of the cue and a STOP1 option be added to the student mode. This would be ¬ handy¬ at a place¬ like¬ Cornell where there is only one¬ terminal¬ and¬ no¬ way¬ of¬ knowing¬ wether¬ there is something¬ wrong¬ with¬ the¬ system¬ and/or our terminal. I can't¬ see¬ any¬ reason for w/holding such information from the student and in fact can only see benefit since then¬ the¬ student¬ will¬ know¬ what¬ the¬ problem is¬ and won't bother his instructor. Here's hoping, ken rush ---------- note 340 vain 04/11 09.50 mw smith mtc What would the system programers say about putting the number of the SPACE AVILABLE in the block when you SD,ID or SS code, on the same screen? This would be very practical for those people who do alot of code writing or drawing and find that to their surprise that there wasn't enough space left in their block to insert the text or drawing they did... sincerly all in vain.... ---------- response 1 04/11 12.49 r lacoe mtc I agree 1000: with this request. Due to the type material, and short time frame to do it in these options are extremely valuable to me and our entire staff. Bob LaCoe ---------- response 2 04/11 13.01 frankel p The system people would probably say, OK, I'll try to do it soon (for SD and ID). ---------- note 349 cheat 04/11 11.37 edie rhrc Who is the programmer of -west2-????? This person is obviously contributing to the delinquency of Plato...he programmed the damned computer to cheat!!!!! E.g. 2+2≡2=3 !?!?!?!? E.g. 2≡3+2=2 !?!?!?!?!!?!?!?! I think that the system should pay more attention to the moral standing of those it chooses to educate our young! A Concerned User ---------- response 1 04/11 11.58 layman matha 2+2≡2 _IS_≤≤↑ˇ__↑ˆ equal to 3 -- the division is done first so youˇ↑ˇ get 2+2≡2 = 2+1 = 3 i dont know about that other example tho -- ¬+ the programmer is bonnie anderson-sieler (bonnie of matha) TomL ---------- response 2 04/11 12.14 michael english In integer arithmetic: 2≡3+2=(2≡3)+2=0+2=2. ---------- response 3 04/11 13.37 bruce iehl mtc Now you see that part of the learning sequence involves trying to figure out when the program is cheating.... ---------- response 4 04/11 18.33 bonnie matha Yes, Virginia, 2+2≡2 IS 3 and Yes,Edie, West shouldn't permit 2≡3+2. I have a new, improved version of west2 that will some day be available (substituted into west2)....so that my moral standing will be improved. bonnie anderson seiler ---------- response 5 04/12 02.03 brand matha You mean it isnt bonnie andersen_≤_ seiler???? why did you decide to change your maiden name? ---------- response 6 04/13 12.03 judy pso Those late hours are catching up with you, Brand! It always has been bonnie anderson elem math david andersen systems bob anderson air conditioners dick anderson caisms tom anderson caisms ---------- note 359 no crashes Has anyone noticed that there was just one crash-incident last week, and just one this week? And that system relia- bility over-all is up by nearly an order of magnitude from last month to this month? Software has been surpassing their goal of not more than one crash per week for more than two months, and since the end of March there have been NO hardware crashes at all. A carload of roses to everyone who has contributed to this achievement! ---------- response 1 04/11 13.33 lederman cerlcc For those of us who are EXTREMELY superstitious.. I sure wish you hadn't said that... barb ---------- response 2 04/11 16.11 stan smith chem It is important to note that what counts is does the system work in the classroom when the students try to sign on. In fact, in many classrooms this past week, PLATO has not done very well at all because of microwave problems. In chemistry, this has been one of the worse weeks in a long time. ---------- response 3 04/11 19.22 stan smith chem It should be pointed out that although an important component of the total system was not working as well as it has in the past, the engineers worked very hard to try to keep the entire -hardware-software-communication- system going. At one point there were a total of 6 repair people in the chemistry classroom. It certainly helped to have the hardware and software stable. Maybe next week everything will work. ---------- response 4 04/12 08.47 silver ve And from Veterinary Medicine: Yeah. Also, whoever con- structed the structure that blocks the path between our microwave antenna and the transmitter, please remove it! The engineers have been doing their best, but you've made it very difficult for them! ---------- response 5 04/12 23.37 creager cs109 You were saying, Gilpin? ---------- response 6 04/13 02.04 gilpin peer I was, of course, NOT saying that the millenium was here and that all problems were solved forever. Presumably the problems involved in the microwave cut-over will be brought under control in due course; others such as line errors, CPU loading, and bad lessons may be with us for some time. Nevertheless, a reduction in system crashes from a rate of 28: (of prime time hours interrupted) in January to a rate of 1: so far in April is an achievement of the first magnitude. If sustained, it represents a new plateau in the development of PLATO IV. In my judgment, it is an achievement worthy of recognition and a few compli- ments to the people responsible. ---------- response 7 04/13 10.02 john r reading Hear, hear!! ---------- response 8 04/14 09.05 stan smith chem An easy way to eliminate crashes is to just turn off the NIU. ---------- note 362 deiss? 04/11 13.36 fuller uimc question: who is the director of course playdo and why are all those game players using stud of playdo in physics and ilstwhere? ---------- response 1 04/11 13.55 aardvark phar ho hum. will bring to attention of deiss. ---------- response 2 04/11 14.31 deiss phar who is fuller and why all the noise, stud playdo games are locked out to everyone but one terminal here - right beside me where I can watch it with a baseball bat. deiss ---------- response 3 04/11 14.39 hody med apparently they picked your lock! ---------- response 4 04/11 14.43 deiss phar 50 choc chip cookies for info leading to....... ---------- response 5 04/11 15.05 fuller uimc antagonism is not necessary. ---------- response 6 04/11 15.28 warner iu I disagree with that, and I was the director of course iudemo for years! (still am.) Now that I see the note, I wonder why _I_ didn't think of a baseball bat... ---------- response 7 04/11 16.13 deiss phar To clarify: You cannot run games with the stud/playdo signon anywhere but right here under my nose UNLESS they are educational games accessible through sample or one of the other lessons listed in the index for demonstrations. If you don't want people to have a chance to explore plato for hands-on demonstrations, have your site director lock it out. P.S. Even if you were here, you'd find it pretty restricted. ---------- response 8 04/11 17.11 kaufman uimc Steve, Are your terminals 9-24 and 9-21? There were two students in talkomatic this afternoon under the playdo sign-on. One of them was in the top channel typing HAHAHAHAHA continously across the screen. Since he had the top line he ate up all the CPU thereby preventing us from talking. Since we had something important to discuss, we were quite thankful for your careful monitoring of playdo. Would it be too much to ask you to limit playdo to non-prime time hours for any games (and could talkomatic be included with this restriction.) Joe Kaufman ---------- response 9 04/11 19.54 hody med and could you please limit the entire sign on to your terminals-- there is no reason to give multiple records access to the system since it can only result in the eating up of system resources by people of questionable purpose and intent-- ---------- response 10 04/11 21.05 fuller uimc Lord... I thought I was alone in the crusade... ---------- response 11 04/11 23.18 schroeder iumusic Silas, I'd hate to still be an iudemo student with you at the baseball bat!!!! And you've been the course- director for _years_????????(hmmmmmmm.....)......however, Deiss, it looks like your bat is made out of spongue!!! at least try one of foam-rubber, or better yet, wood" in other words, although these terminals are course- restricted, the CPU time taken up by things....well... it didn't help. ---------- response 12 04/12 12.25 deiss phar Once again, folks, if you want to keep stud/playdo off your site, lock it out with your site director options. If someone will modify the system router so that we can schedule lessons contingent upon time of day, day of week, ECS load, cpu load, and other relevant criteria (like I suggested about 6 months ago) then I'll be glad to incorperate Mr. Kauffman's suggestions and others. But I still don't intend to open up game playing during non prime time because that is when there is no one around to see that game players behave properly. I'd rather they used the cpu 20 ms/sec during prime time instead of take a chance on a fist through a panel during non prime time. ---------- response 13 04/12 13.01 deiss phar P.S. If I have to run around worrying about loopholes in the system time slicing machinery, as in Mr. Kaufman's case, I'll never get anything else done. Don't report talkomatic problems to me - see the authors or the system staff. ---------- response 14 04/12 13.13 jab music Everyone seems to be very nasty about this whole thing but there is one point to be made. The use of multiples is certainly necessary but is it also necessary for these same multiples to have access to something like talkomatic during prime time when this is used more frequently as a means of communication between people doing business. I was also in the channel where this person was typing haha's across the screen. We moved to another channel and he followed us before we had a chance to screen him out with a protect. I suggest you check into the use of talko with your playdo people Mr. Deiss. Also I did ask a system person in fact I talked to the operator who is in controll of site 9 and he said all I could do is talk to you Mr. Deiss so please do something about it. Thank you ---------- response 15 04/12 14.45 kaufman uimc In case the site director is interested, I saw playdo on site-station 27-12 and 27-13 today(saturday). The student was in talkomatic. Joe ---------- response 16 04/12 15.18 kaufman uimc Steve, You stated that you are afraid that one of your students will throw "a fist through a panel" if your students play games. From my acquaintence with pharmacy students here, they are not quite so destructive. Furthermore, I doubt whether you are monitoring your students so carefully during primetime to prevent such damage. If you were, I am sure you would have caught the person who was causing us so much problems in talkomatic. You have been on the system long enough to know that multiples routed to games spread like wildfire over the system. Yes, it is true that site directors can course restrict their terminals. But it is a reall drag to have to be constantly on the look for the next "dangerous" sign-ons. Or conversely, to add new courses to the site list every time a site creates a new course. Continued...... ---------- response 17 04/12 15.46 kaufman uimc Now let me do a risky thing -- I will try to second guess you. You really seem to be trying to pressure the system staff to make changes in the system. For as you state:"If someone will modify the system router... (like I suggested about 6 month ago)...I would be glad to cooperate with Mr. Kauffman(sic)." Well, I too wish someone would modify the system router as your suggested, but until THEY do, you can write your own restrictions or use one of the several routers other people have written. For the restrictions that you cannot presently implement (i.e. cpu load), you could ask for another system reserve word. (For cpu load, tho, you could use the system reserve word of the number of users on the system.) You also seem to be pushing for an improvement with the CPU. For the "loopholes in the systems time slicing machinery"...you suggest we "see the authors or the ---------- response 18 04/12 16.00 kaufman uimc the system staff≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤_≤≤≤_ ______ _____."(my underlining). Again, I join with you in your request. But while we are waiting for godot, do you have to let us all suffer? I am not opposed to such methods to get what are quite probably reasonable requests, which have been reasonably suggested, and which have been patiently waited for. And maybe we should all join in the pain you will cause us to make a stronger protest. But do we have to? By the way, I am trying hard to reform my ways and spell Purdue correctly. My name has only one "f" but I hope we are still on good enough terms that you would call me by my first name. Joe Kaufman ---------- response 19 04/12 17.07 rucinski uimc I can dig it. Keep it up Joe. It seems to me that the whole problem here is now getting to be one of personality judging by the last few responses and the whole issue is being forgotten. I would think that the responsibility for the use of a multiple SHOULD rest with the person who sets it up, and, if they see that it is being misused (abused in this case) it should be destroyed. Surely there is some way the _creator_ of the signon can exercise better control.....?? terry rucinski ---------- response 20 04/12 18.22 fuller uimc Very interesting. Deiss has done much - maligned the authors of a very fine communications program because someone, responsible to him, was extremely discourteous to the other people using the program, obviously mis-using it. Now then, we can see that somehow, just because this is a computer system and not "real life", all the courtesies that we use otherwise somehow mysteriously dis-appear! He says "go talk to the systems people" when asked to curb the manners of these people. Makes life easier for you, doesn't it? But what about all the other people, who are cursing out loud because of this? How much time and effort is it going to take you to things so that only people who WANT your signons to run can... certainly, not as many as those who do not. In any case, the initiative should be yours, and not theirs. If it is theirs, then it is in a positive direction... D.Fuller ---------- response 21 04/12 20.23 grohne psych If nothing else, I have never seen a better example of a person entirely missing the point of a series of notes than Deiss has shown here. Either that, or a disregard for same that should prevent him from remaining a course director. (Especially when honest people like myself hardly know what the course records editor even looks like!) ---------- note 376 5line code 04/11 16.20 gf lahey mtc i do NOT like the shortened display in author mode...it seems i rarely am content to see only 5 lines, so am always pressing the space bar...what are chances of going back to 8 lines, or even 10? ---------- response 1 04/11 16.32 sherman ed Well, I happen to like the 5 line display (shortens autobreak time). You can always use your L option to reset the number of lines displayed. ---------- response 2 04/11 16.54 hody med again-- when (if) could we have the L option individualized-- at least for one session, so we can "set it and forget it" -- "lesson out and lesson in" ? ---------- response 3 04/11 21.17 curly iu One vote for individual 'L' option!..it sounds like an easy thing to impliment...and so why not do it? curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 4 04/11 22.42 parrello uimatha You can only store so much in a student record... ---------- response 5 04/12 02.17 rodby ames However, when the new disk organization scheme gets implemented, there will be room for things like this in the directory block. As to whether systems people will put 'L' in, you'll have to ask Blomme. ---------- response 6 04/12 02.17 blomme s Major surgery on the editor and/or the system is going to be required in order to bring the functioning of the editor back up to more acceptable levels. The system staff will be involved in the work to accomplish this, now that a reasonable key echo time has been restored under load conditions of over 400 terminals. Because the amount of CPU processing time available under heavy load is limited and because the editor is a middle to heavy user of time, the performance of the editor was affected by the system changes required to service larger numbers of terminals. The change to number of lines displayed was just a quick change that we hoped could have at least a minor positive benefit in reducing CPU usage by the editor while we study the various possible routes for the major overhaul that seems required to restore performance of the editor. Please bear with us. ---------- response 7 04/14 14.26 gf lahey mtc thanks, rick...will do. ---------- note 383 pnote list 04/11 18.18 kemp uicc This has to do with the P-note option of turning off your notes temporarily.... I think that a list should kept of the last 10 people that tried to write you a note. So this way you can find out what the person wanted to tell you without turning on your notes again. Another thought would be to have a message send to when you are on, satting that the person tried to write you a note. That way you can term talk him/her right there... saving fustration of the writer. It is a thought............. ---------- response 1 04/11 22.00 berger users Why would one want to turn off his notes temporarily, without directing the writer to send the note to another record, and still be concerned about who tried to write the note? If you really want to see who wants to write to you, then by all means leave your personal notes option on! ---------- response 2 04/13 01.09 k mast p The 'turn-off' option was created mainly for 2 needs: 1) People who have numerous records, but want all their notes sent to the same place. 2) People who are going to be gone for a length of time and do not wish to have people send them notes in the interim. If you are using the option for other that these reasons, please inform us, maybe we can make things easier for you. ---------- note 397 improve 04/12 03.07 rodby ames It sure would be nice if: 1) In term calc, if the answer would plot in mode rewrite, due to the fact that systems messages appear on the same line. 2) In term talk, if the name of the person you are talking to wouldn't be erased. Many times I have forgotten to whom I was talking and had to ask them; very embarassing. 3) On the HELP page from the author mode page, if it would say that all the options on the DATA1 page were available as shifted letters. (And maybe also on the DATA1 page itself.) ---------- response 1 04/12 03.21 bowery comm I have had the same problem frequently during non prime- time. I assume term -calc- could return you to your previous mode as does term -step-. ---------- response 2 04/13 12.15 judy pso I too forget the name of the caller on "talk". Even if I know _who_ I'm talking to -- as "connie" or "the guy with the tennis lesson" -- I often forget the spelling. ---------- response 3 04/14 13.45 obrien uicc I agree on this...when I'm talked to by someone I never heard of (which is not all that infrequently) I NEVER remember the name. I wish it would stay around someplace! ---------- note 406 restrict 04/12 13.23 michael english It's probably too late to do anything about it, since the sign-on restriction machinery has just been completed and embodies a totally different concept, but..... 1) Was the possibility considered of having the course director specify at which logical sites, times, and other conditions various users in the course could run? 2) If so, what was the rationale not to do it that way? Just musing, as I see problems with this also..... ---------- response 1 04/12 13.43 golden s There are three serious difficulties with restricting courses rather than sites. (1) The site director is at the mercy of the course directors, but the site director has the most to lose. We would need both course and site restrictions. (2) Courses are volatile things. New ones are created and destroyed each day. Keeping the restrictions up to date will require consider- able effort. The "other" category in site restrictions mitigates this somewhat. (3) There are a great many courses. The space needed to store the restrictions would be much greater than that used in restricting sites. If time dependent rules were stored, it would be even more space consuming. ---------- response 2 04/13 10.00 b sherwood phys Bill, I think what Michael meant was "off-hours", etc., in the course file itself, set by the course director, not specs set by the system. ---------- response 3 04/13 15.33 michael english Right, Bruce. In particular, I was thinking in terms of having certain courses restrict themselves so they could not be used except at certain sites at certain times. This might ease the problem caused by multiples, as evidenced in GENERAL ¬$363. ---------- response 4 04/15 09.37 meers wright I remember when there was an option in course records that was supposed to let you choose the hours that the course was on/off.. It worked to the point that it gave a message that this course could not run at this time, but it let you on anyway. Something like this is going to be needed again someday in the future, and i see a system where it would let you choose the hours of every day in the week, and also decide whether authors, students, multiples, or instructors could/could not run at those times. It would take quite a few variables to implement it this way, but might be feasible if/when there ever no disk space shortage.. ---------- note 408 MAD≤≤≤ 04/12 14.24 pds1 etsc TO ANYONE: Who the heck wrote that "cute"addition to lesson math? For anyone who doesn't know about it, go to math, arethmetic! ---------- response 1 04/12 17.48 little buddy matha who are you and what are you talking about? LB ---------- response 2 04/12 18.00 parrello uimatha Since I could not find anything "cute" under "arithmetic" in lesson "math", I assumed I was looking at the wrong place. Since you misspelled "arithmetic", maybe you mis- spelled the name of the lesson, too? ---------- response 3 04/12 19.51 grohne psych After getting into erethmetec, go into HOW the WEST was... and see what he means... ---------- response 4 04/13 01.48 brand matha We are very sorry for the display.. It is removed now.. ---------- response 5 04/14 18.00 whisenhunt siu What was it?????????????????? Whise... ---------- response 6 04/15 09.40 meers wright A R at I n T he H ouse M ight E at T he I nnkeepers C heese sigh ---------- note 410 network ii 04/12 14.51 fay rtv362 NETWORKS; I have read a previous note about keeping the network program updated and I do understand the problem in- volved in keeping such a program up to date. However, I would like to make a further suggestion: those of us who are conducting inter-site discussions and "symposia" on a particular topic or field would find it extremely useful if the signons of the site directors were also listed in network. In this manner we would be able to send personal notes of inquiry. etc. Is this possible? ---------- response 1 04/12 15.01 berger users Somehow it just doesn't seem practical to list signons in any lesson. They are very fluid: they change so rapidly as to make such a catalog of signons outdated before long. ---------- response 2 04/14 08.15 walton reading If you would like to know the signon of a site director, contact Tebby Lyman (tebby of pso). ---------- note 414 curricula 04/12 15.50 petak ed Is it possible to create a systems lesson in which an author could access the curricula designed by the systems router for a given course. This would eliminate the need to have a separate lesson which simulates the router functions for authors. A security might have to be set up to protect 'guarded' curricula. ---------- response 1 04/12 17.41 chabay s We do intend to make it possible for an instructor to choose lessons directly from the index he sets up (or from the catalog), instead of having to use a separate student signon just to try the lessons. The benefits of the router itself, however, are only available to routed students. One way to give others access to lessons in your curriculum is to set up a multiple signon which takes the user to the router index. (Several groups have multiples of this sort.) ---------- response 2 04/13 11.08 petak ed Our group uses such a multiple; however, some people in the class (SeEd/CS 357 and SeEd 459) have author records for sites restricted to our multiple. It might be nice if they could access the same assignments from their author records. ---------- note 422 comm edit 04/12 19.12 volker ames Are there any plans to allow octal, n-type, or v-type input when editing a common block? It is impossible unless you have a calc line setting the variable in your lesson. ---------- response 1 04/12 19.20 midden propman perhaps you should read the help pages? ---------- response 2 04/12 19.29 silver ve Well, it would help if the inspect change option page said HELP AVAILABLE, Marshall. Adding "SHIFT BACK to exit" really wouldn't be out of place, either (although it is easy of figure out). The editor works nice -- but it does seem a bit cryptic in places. ---------- response 3 04/12 20.40 volker ames ok thanks alot. It was stupid not to even try to press -HELP-, but I guess I'm spoiled by almost always being told if the help key is active in the systems programs....... ---------- response 4 04/13 11.37 hody med you're not spoiled-- that's the way it should be ---------- response 5 04/13 12.20 judy pso I don't think so... I don't want to crud up my lessons with "HELP available" on every page. 1st law of PLATO; when in doubt, press NEXT 2nd law of PLATO; when stuck, try HELP ---------- response 6 04/13 17.45 grohne psych Third law: PLATO must preserve its own existence, except where this would interfere with 1st or 2nd Law. ---------- note 425 common 04/12 19.35 silver ve I notice that editcom gives the name of the lesson and of the common block, within the editor. Is there a possibility that this data could be placed in system defined variables which authors could access? I use one common editor to edit about ten commons, keeping all but one common command asterisked out. Needless to say they all look pretty much the same when I am editing them, so I'd like to display the common name, within the editor. ---------- response 1 04/13 01.03 k mast p Probably not. ---------- response 2 04/13 14.16 silver ve Shucks. ---------- note 429 dataset re 04/12 23.01 kaufman mfl what ever happened to the dataset block reserve and release commands? are the new related common commands supposed to take care of things, or are plans still around to implement the dataset versions? by the way, I hope such plans _are_ still around, since systems said they would be up about a week ago... please, let's have a systems response to this enquiry - I _do_ need to know ---------- response 1 04/12 23.27 blomme s Yes, several changes involving datasets have high priority at this time. ---------- response 2 04/13 13.48 kaufman mfl thanks (when?) ---------- note 450 studplaydo 04/13 15.33 deiss phar In this note/response series I will attempt to reply to some of the attacks that have come my way with regard to general note 363. Why stud/playdo? The stud/playdo signon was created in order to facilitate the delivery of demonstrations here at Purdue. At no expense to and with little thanks from CERL I have given hundreds of demonstrations over here. These demos have been given for groups ranging from 1 to over 30 at once with 4 to 8 terminals. A second reason is that through this signon I am able to maintain order and control over game playing so that it only takes place when the system can support it. To my knowlege the game index on page 3 of the playdo router does not have any loopholes in it and no one can indiscriminantly run games via that signon. They can get to games through sample and other items indexed, but they can also get to a lot of very useful material thereby also..... ---------- response 1 04/13 15.38 deiss phar I would assume that the games they can run through sample etc. have an educational justification for being listed there. So I have not been worried by their presence. Takomatic and healthnote is also listed in that index, and to my knowledge no one over here has abused that priviledge. Someone complained about misuse at sites 27 and 9, but those sites are not mine. This is unfortunate and proper steps will be taken. The stud/playdo signon has served us very well here, and I have sought to share it with other sites who expressed a need for something of this type. This has lead to problems...... ---------- response 2 04/13 15.45 deiss phar Why it has become a problem: Recently someone inquired in general notes (¬$14) about the possibility of getting a general system wide and system controlled game playing signon. Since stud/playdo has been used successfully here for that purpose for several months, I volunteered the information in hopes that it might provide a model for those seeking this type of facility. Unfortunately, someone who read that note has spread the word indiscriminantly creating havoc for other site directors. Only some malicious and/or irresponsible author could have passed this on to game players since only authors can read general notes anyway. I take full respon- sibility for making it known in general notes, but not for the caliber of people who have access to general notes and who misuse such information. ---------- response 3 04/13 15.53 deiss phar The Inequity of it All: There is a strange imbalance of power associated with this system. Authors are allowed to kill cpu time by the hour writing, condensing, and running games as a "deserved diversion" while students cannot get into lesson sample to study useful material very easily. Oddly enough, it is the students who get labeled as "people of questionable purpose and intent" when the authors do not even have to justify the existence of their own lesson material. Authors can spend hours shooting the breeze via term talk and personal notes while students often do not have the facility to report program bugs or otherwise comment upon the material they are required to use via plato. This system is too author oriented in that respect. There can be no reason other than political for the absence of a student note facility comparable to general and help notes. It is cont.... ---------- response 4 04/13 16.01 deiss phar certainly feasible from a programming point of view. The delay in this seems to me inexplicable. At the risk of wearing out a cliche, it stikes me a total "cybercrud" that authors can do this while students cannot. It reduces plato to a game of computerized politics where what you are allowed to do depends upon who you know more than anything else. For these reasons I still feel that the stud/playdo signon serves a useful purpose. I realize that it might cause some sites temporary confusion, but for those sites where such facilities are not desired, there is a simple solution that has already been pointed out. The solution: Stud/playdo is not the only multiple on the system. Many of you must be aware of others that allow access to chemis- try or medical material. It is odd that I have been attacked when the game index in course playdo is locked out under all but special ...... ---------- response 5 04/13 16.06 deiss phar circumstances. I think stud/playdo has as much right to be on the system as these others, and the fact that its use has spread so fast since first mention is indicative of the demand for it from students. The reasons for the attacks against myself are more personaly motivated I think - and I'll come back to that point later. For those sites that do not want stud on, it can easily be locked out with the site director options. You do not have to repeat this for every new multiple that comes along. You can lock your site out once and for all to all such multiples under category "other" in the site restrictions. The operator for site 9 and the system person consulted (mentioned in gnote 363) are clearly in error here. ---------- response 6 04/13 16.15 deiss phar The real motive behind this "crusade": You will have to excuse me if I sound a little paranoid at this point. In the last 30 days I have been accused of complaining in notes about a cpu crunch (which I haven't), I have been humiliated in front of others simply because I have a degree in C.S., I have been told that I do not know enough about the system to deserve the right to an opinion about how it might be implemented in lesson adcis, I have received several antagonistic personal notes, and now it has been suggested that I be thrown off the system for being irresponsible, I have been accused of hoarding parts for our terminals, I have been accused of maligning the authors of lesson talkomatic, I have been accused of being responsible for some people at site 9 who abused lesson talkomatic, I have seen one very brilliant and inquisitve author silenced because... ---------- response 7 04/13 16.21 deiss phar he expressed some alternative views about how plato might be implemented on other machines, I have watched people curse and otherwise jump up and down in lesson adcis when the same was suggested and so on. I am beginning to believe that there are several influential people who will stop at nothing to ensure that they have an exclusive voice in how plato in eventually implemented. All of this seems to have started about 1 month ago when I opened my mouth about small computers in lesson adcis. Maybe I am just nuts, I sure don't want to believe its true. But as Mr. Fuller and others continue this !crusade! of character assasination etc., my faith in the plato medium of communication will dwindle fast. ---------- response 8 04/13 16.27 deiss phar So what am I going to do about stud/playdo? Until someone shows me how students are getting to the game index listed in the playdo router, nothing. If students are running games through other items listed there, I think there is either a good reason, or they should not be listed there. The students who bothered Joe Kaufman (and note that it _was_ an accidental mispelling back in 363) were not from my site. If you find anyone doing that from my site, just contact any author here. If such abuse does continue at other sites, I will remove talkomatic from the index for stud playdo. But the rest of it is there for your use in demonstrating plato, if you do not want it, you can lock it out. ---------- response 9 04/13 18.41 fuller uimc To clear the air...↓ Please! my aims were much more simplistic than people are thinking they are. I just wanted to let the course director know, out of courtesy, that his (excellent) sequence was being abused. In the past, course directors have always wanted to about these things... I assumed that it was not intentional that the thing had gotten spread, like wildfire (as has always happened) be- cause of the well known (and rabidly active) grapevine. That's where my argument stops... Dave Fuller ---------- response 10 04/13 21.37 david hebrew After reading this series of notes, I was tempted to write an index to educational-type "fun" lessons. First, though, I signed on as "stud" of "playdo". Frankly, I don't think anybody could do a better job of making a signon like that. It is comprehensive, but not too large to grasp. The collection of lessons in that router should be enough to convince anyone to start using PLATO for his/her own education. In short, I like it. Very much. Congrats on a fine, fine index, Mr. Deiss. John Eisenberg ---------- response 11 04/14 01.30 k mast p A comment to the point made in response ¬$3 ('There can be no reason other than political for the absence of a student note facility comparable to general and help notes"): Comment facilities for students are certainly planned, though not exactley the same as presently exists for authors. It is hoped that someday students will have a viable means of commenting on their lesson material and reporting errors, but certainly that type of information should go to the instructors and not to the system as a whole. The reasons why it has not been implemented on the system as yet are certainly NOT political, but rather priority restricted. I see no reason why students should be able to access the present note facilities designed for authors (which in general, they would not be able to understand). ---------- response 12 04/14 09.31 hody med i think everyone is losing site of the original purpose of the grants which made plato possible... this purpose was to perform research and development which would lead to an economical and versatile system of delivery for computer-based education. communication, competitive recreational games, and the entertainment of authors and students alike - while nice when the system is under low load-- aren't what it was made for and aren't the items on which it will be evaluated. as for steve's quote of my comment on "people of questionable purpose"-- i include both authors and students, i assure you... as for the student multiples used by the medical group, they are restricted strictly to site "med" or to other sites/stations which have requested their use specifically. i would like to know of any exceptions. i think the same exact procedure should be used (cont) ---------- response 13 04/14 09.36 hody med (cont) with stud/playdo and all other multiples... as for steve, personally, i hope he'll forgive me for stating publicly that he is one of the best motivated, enthusiastic and capable people on the system. regretably, when one expresses opinion in a public forum, a lot of the participants in the forum lose track of the distinctions between arguments on issues, and attacks on personality. steve has undoubtedly been subjected to that sort of indiscriminate attack! by the way, i still believe access to multiples should be controlled by their creators! ---------- note 462 prntstatus 04/13 21.57 kawell o There is a problem with the Print Request software and you may find that a status search will not find your print request. Don't worry, we are still doing the prints. Just the log is messed up. Len ---------- response 1 04/14 12.13 rader s If you have problems with your print requests, please leave me a note. ---------- note 468 route auth 04/14 09.43 hody med there is an important issue subtly buried in the furor over deiss's multiple signon... it is the fact that, on plato, the priviledge of authoring is linked to the unlimited access to files... this is obviously not an inherent requirement of authoring and perhaps the time has come to create the "junior author" category which has been proposed before... that of an author whose records would be associated with a limited list of files, created by the course director. access would be limited to the files in the list. this would be a "routed author" category rather than a "junior" -- status would not be the issue... rather access would be based on need. one might even consider a class of students who would be able to choose files by name, as instructors now do... so there would be routed and unrouted authors and students-- depending on their needs and responsibility. ---------- response 1 04/14 12.13 eric cornell Howsomever, a routed author would not be able to view other lessons to learn about good and bad techniques of instruction on PLATO without all sorts of complicated brouhaha by the "supervisor" of the routed author's records. And what demand would be fulfilled by an unrouted student signon in the immediate future, other than easy access to well-publicized lessons (many of which are games)? At this time PLATO is not set up for easy browsing... I would thing that a system-wide browsing signon (which would operate within the limitations of system capabilities at any instant) might be feasible when Published Lessons come into existence. ---------- response 2 04/14 13.00 hody med those are good points but i still feel that the !ability to author"" should be separated, for clarity if nothing else, from the "ability to browse"... ---------- response 3 04/14 13.32 al mfl Fine, I agree. Let's make Dr. Hody a "junior! author and see how well it works. ---------- response 4 04/14 15.38 hody med i am really sorry that some people are so hung up on status-- if i had no need to access lessons other than my own, i would have no objection to "routed author" records... ---------- response 5 04/14 18.13 roper siu Al, that's cruel. But I wonder what would happen... Quetzal ---------- response 6 04/14 20.10 curly iu I can see the arguments that would result from such a change. Such as where does one draw the line between routed and unrouted authors. There would be people trying to demote everybody and promote themselves. And in any case, the decision would rest on the shoulders of the course directors who create the records. Some would give everybody unrouted records while others would restict people as much as possible, depending on the type of person he was. I am against any such change....and in any case I see no real reason not to allow authors free access. I believe that any such restiction would severly hamper any author in learning tutor by example. If there were more lessons about tutor on a more advanced level than we have presently have it might be an acceptable possibility(even then, I'm not sure). I dont believe Ive ever seen a systems response to this question.....curly ---------- response 7 04/14 20.12 curly iu Also, in respect to the apparent success of the stud-playdo signon.....to me it doesnt indicate a junior author, but rather an advanced student. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 8 04/15 09.56 galcher uimatha One other thing... What differentiates a "junior" author from a normal average everyday (news reading) author? From what I can see the only thing that the junior (routed if you wish) author status does for one is to limit access to plato even more than it is now. It almost seems a question not of ability to program ,but to be able to tell others what they can do and where they s_hould _ be able to go. Somehow I had hoped that the political games that plague the world (no matter what the supposed "improvement" they provide to our society) would NOT make our system so non-functional and bogged down. Hoping your news is good news. Seldon ---------- response 9 04/15 11.09 mcneil a uicc Junior author accounts won't work. The first think that pathelogical 'junior' will do is create a leslist and a jumpout index to all his favorite games. The checks involved keep 'junior' down on the farm aren't worth it. If we (the upper middle class) with the help of 's' (the supreme beings) limit 'junior' to editing and executing 1 lesson, I have a feeling that junior will do everything in his power to crash the system and gum the works. argggghhhhhhh frustratedly yours, AL9000 ---------- response 10 04/15 12.44 gilpin peer One means of preventing routed authors from re-routing themselves is simply to have the condensor look at each condense request to see if it is from a routed author--if it is, then look for -jumpout-s and convert them to no-ops. Whether the extra overhead from this is acceptable or not is a judgment requiring data that s-people would have to provide, but it seems clear that such an approach could be made to work. It also seems clear to me that someone who is hiring an author and paying him money might have legitimate use for routed author signons, and I know that many course directors would be more willing to give unpaid authors a chance at the system if they didn't have to worry about what such authors might do to the good name of the courses involved. ---------- note 469 mnemonics 04/14 10.23 joer conn i just wish to make an announcement to those med folks who look at gen notes but none of the med notes that there is a notice on the mnemonics that have been received by this person..the announcement is in healthnote entitled mnemonics... joe ---------- note 470 pleasewait 04/14 10.50 bill kennedy cha What has happened to the message 'please wait'..during a jumpout?? ---------- response 1 04/14 14.56 steve cornell It's still there. It only appears if there is a long wait for the condense. ---------- response 2 04/14 17.13 frankel p It will not appear with an-inhibit erase-. Could that be your problem? The message should appear whenever the lesson needs to be condensed, even if there is no long wait. ---------- note 471 notefiles 04/14 11.40 tracht ced What is the relation between the amount of space for notes in a coursefile and the number of notes an individual can receive? I keep getting messages such as you have room for 10 notes in your file your course has room for 13. So I was wondering if I'm holding open the notefile or if there are a number of people like me storing 2 or 3 notes each. ---------- response 1 04/14 11.46 golden s There are separate limits on the number of notes the entire course may receive and on the number each author may receive The space available varies greatly, but on the average there is enough space for 2 or 3 notes per author. So, if you allow 6 or 10 notes to sit around for several days you are depriving several of your colleagues of the oportunity to get their fair share of notes. I don't know why so many people see this differently, but I find I can destroy nearly all notes I receive immediately after the first reading. ---------- response 2 04/14 11.49 hody med or save them in a "work file" for later printout with the line printer... ---------- response 3 04/14 13.13 weeks uimc Or write them out with good old pen and ink! ---------- response 4 04/14 13.32 hinton ssu ≠One reason for keeping notes is that the HELP section at the end of your pnote file says that you can prevent people from sending you notes if you delete all the notes in your file. I have assumed that this means that if I were to delete them all. no one would be able to send me any notes. Since I want to be able to receive notes. I keep things stored in my file. Should this perhaps be changed? ---------- response 5 04/14 13.40 al mfl What the help section says (or at least means) is that you _can_ turn off your notes receiving capability. Deleting your notes has nothing to do with this. You have to press a few extra keys in order to turn off your notes file. And if you do you can also turn it back on whenever you please. ---------- response 6 04/15 06.44 walton reading Turning off your notes does not directly and automatically follow from deletion of all your notes. What the message means is that in order to turn off your notes receiving capability, you must first delete all your notes. Rob Walton ---------- note 474 a 04/14 11.55 tracht ced I think a resonable restriction on the games would not be as has been suggested to make a class of junior authors, but rather to restrict the games to 'everyone' except during prime time. ---------- response 1 04/14 12.04 parrello uimatha Page through any section of old general notes for a quick review of all the umpteen trillion arguments pro and con on this subject that have pockmarked notes since as long as I can remember. ---------- response 2 04/14 12.06 bowery comm Ya can't talk about this games thing till someone comes up with a good definition of what is and what is not educational. ---------- response 3 04/14 12.34 fritz ames Right, Jim. An excellent example would be Bowery's own game, spasim. Many would say it is a typical "fly-around- and-shoot-'em-up" game which deserves no status at all since it has no educational content. I personally disagree, since spasim was my first practical exposure to spherical coordinates, and playing spasim has given me proficiency in that coordinate system. There is NO WAY we can fairly inhibit ANY games on this system (with very few exceptions) because who can say what is educational and what is not? Just let the matter die like it has umpteen times before. ---------- response 4 04/14 13.05 hody med i question that the fact that spasim has helped some learn polar coordinates is a necessary reason to class it other than a game... as many have said many times before, the idea is not to curb "game" approaches to teaching, rather to curb use of plato which is primarily recreational-- and only to curb that when it interferes with people who have to work... ps: that can happen outside of prime time too, when plato is on half-ecs or reloading and recondensing frequently... hence another request for identification of low priority of resources-- to be attached to both users and lessons... and to apply to anything in short supply... what's a high priority use? -D fulfilling contractual obligations, preparing materials and running students in organized courses... any objections to those priorities? ---------- response 5 04/14 13.08 tracht ced I don't buy the argument that it is not possible to tell what is a game and what is not except for rare exceptions. I agree that learning does take place in the games and they do provide an introduction PLATO for many students (including myself.) I feel that a policy such as is applied here in which a large number of games are available during off hours on a general sign on is very fair. People who wish to 'learn' about spherical coordinates may do so then. The social problem as I see it is that authors have been given the privledge of using the computer to entertain themselves whenever they wish something the ordinary student cannot do. Creating a junior author merely creates more of a caste system. ie. I was able to get info on a dataset editor for my lesson. Imagine if I had to get premission to add the dataset editor to my course. ---------- response 6 04/14 15.56 baker me I think there is a simple problem here that no one has addressed. that is we may have the ablity to allow a general game signon NOW but what will be the situation once that comes into effect. As I see it to author during non-prime time would become a big hassle with people stacked liked cordwood playing games. ---------- response 7 04/14 16.08 tracht ced Aren't the people stacked up playing games during non ptime now? They are at the medical center. ---------- response 8 04/14 19.53 dimitrief english I have to disagree with the person who said you can classify games and non-games. He said there were a very few instances. I can whip off about 20 from the top of my head which are controversial and have been argued about a countless number of times. For example. would you consider news a game or a " serious" lesson. There's definitely arguments on both sides. Also, site directors can now inhibit the games at whatever times they desire if they want to, so it shouldn' have to be done system-wide. ---------- response 9 04/14 20.55 fay rtv362 BOWERY AND OTHERS PRONE TO CONFUSE THE ISSUES... The oldest strategy of obfuscation is to continually question the definitions and premises of one's opponents. PLEASE quit thumbing your nose at us folks and deign to join a rational discussion. eh? ---------- response 10 04/14 23.02 michael english That's what I like in a rational argument, someone who can see straight to the matter without getting caught up in pointless bickering over terms, definitions, ideas, facts opinions and other pathways leading away from the TRUTH..... ---------- response 11 04/15 08.48 parrello uimatha I agree. Let's quit pussyfooting around and get to the point. A game is some lesson that has no use whatever. (Whether you agree with this definition or not is immaterial since you're just trying to obscure the argument.) All games should be inhibited. Now that we have arrived at a decision we can end this discussion. ---------- response 12 04/15 10.18 galcher uimatha I have some questions... To tracht of ced: About the "social problem" authors seem to have (this is in accordance with response -$5 this note). I would as you one question. Would you allow students the same access to games as authors do, at ANY time as the authors have it as it stands now? What would be the ratio of time spent in instructional lesson versus time spent in a "game". I would function of a student of PLATO? It certainly is not to play games, But since the authors (this is considering that all authors are working at some time on instructional material) are programming the lessons which are to be used by the students and are (I think) under more stress than would a normal student, they should have some form of temp. relaxation. ---------- response 13 04/15 10.27 galcher uimatha (cont) And in response to the problem of game people who are "stacked up" at the med center, I dont think that this would bring cause to the adding of the junior author status as much as it would a stricter eye from the site director. To fay of rtv362: I dont see where Jim is clouding the issue at all. I should ask you in a further response to relavently describe lesson as a game or a worthwhile information relaying lesson and reasons for that decision. Hoping your _news_ is good news, Seldon ---------- response 14 04/15 11.19 gilpin peer Gary Michael made an excellent suggestion yesterday about the category system being worked on for the new version of Notes...one which I hope Dave Woolley will implement... namely that there be a category for arguments about games, restricting games, restricting people from playing games, how such restrictions violate the Bill of Rights, etc. Then the people who want to can fight about these things to their hearts' content and the rest of use can lock out the category and forget about it. ---------- note 477 restrict 04/14 12.06 tracht ced Sorry about stopping in the middle of the last note. I think a reasonable thing to do on the games would not be to have a special classification of junior authors, but rather to restrict the use of games to non prime time for _everyone_. That would only nessisitate deciding which lessons were games and having them not condense during ptime (an easy task with the ptime system word.) I can't help but wonder if all of this talk about junior authors (and one resentment that many of the students have is that authors can play games during prime time at many sites.) is so that the senior authors can continue their abuses. I can see no reason why anyone≤≤≤__≤______ should be able to clog up the computer for his won benifit while legitimate users are being autobreaked. ---------- response 1 04/14 13.49 al mfl It is very difficult to classify something as a game or not. What do you think of "how the west was won?" That is definitely a game but I'm sure that many elementary math students have learned a lot fron that lesson. Restricting it until after ptime isn't feasible since many of the kids who use it are rather young and may not want to stay up all night just to do their math lessons. ---------- response 2 04/14 15.19 tracht ced In response to the last note. I wish to further clarify my definition of a game. My definition is a program that is used for recreational use. If I am at a site where students are learning basic math, How the West Was Won might be a a worthwhile lesson. If I am a college student my use is probably at the game level. I was mainly reffering to programs which are obvious games such as moonwar. I see no reason why the lessons couldn't be made to condense either for a specific course or only during the off hours. Only lessons which have a record of being abused would need to be classified as only condensable by proper course or ptime. Although there are many games on PLATO how many are used regularly enough to amount to a significant amount of CPU time? Many of the games I have seen are not enjoyable enough for me to play more than once or twice. ---------- response 3 04/15 09.12 parrello uimatha The only problem with a hazy definition like that is that you will eventually have to apply it to every lesson on the system. Go into lesson -wordwar- or lesson -news- and tell us whether they are games or not. ---------- response 4 04/15 09.44 bowery comm P.E.E.R. people, Could you make public any statistics on the percentage of the cpu and ECS taken up by what even MIGHT be refered to as "game" type lessons during prime time? If this data has not been gathered I would suggest that it be gathered since many people assume that the way to minumize auto-break in their lessons is to restrict recreational lessons during prime time. This will continue to be a scape-goat for auto-break induced aggressions until the statistics are made known from a reputable source. If indeed, these "games" use a major portion of the available prime-time computer resources, they should be delt with at an administrative level as soon as possible. Thanks ---------- response 5 04/15 10.34 parrello uimatha Be sure to include lesson "edit" as a game. I was once thrown out of room 165 while editting a lesson because (in the words of the instructor) "There is no game-playing until after 10:00"... (I think lesson edit IS classified as a game, since it is not used for instructional purposes. After all, what has anyone learned from going through lesson edit? And how many students in instructional courses use it?) ---------- response 6 04/15 11.01 mg smith mtc Moonwar a game??!!!! I must admit, when I first browsed through that lesson, it was for "recreational" purposes. Now, though, I must admit, after a few times is that lesson, it was for edu- cational purposes. (angles) I won't belabour the point much further, but I do want to say one more thing: If it wasn't for some of the games, I wouldn't have learned as much about the system and TUTOR. Your favorite SCHMUCK! (marty smith/mg smith-mtc) ---------- response 7 04/15 13.03 michael english Somebody ought to collect statistics on the disk space and CPU load these discussions on "games" require..... ---------- note 480 Driver ed 04/14 12.16 petry cibuls Can anyone tell me of any lessons dealing with driver education for truck drivers? We would appreciate this as we are planning a new course for C.S.U. Thanks, and please reply to petry/cibuls in P-Notes. ---------- response 1 04/14 21.46 auld mflu Try lesson car.......it's not exactly what you want but I think thats all there is ..... warren *** end of notes ***