+++ plato iv group notes +++ general interest notes 1975 notes beginning april 26, 1975 file onotes28 printed at 12:44 pm on june 11, 1976 ---------- note 0 complaint 04/26 16.04 chato cerl I would like to complain about the current practice locking the 4th floor door of CERL as this is the only floor with a men's restroom it makes for VERY! uncomfortble computer users thankyou ---------- response 1 04/26 16.08 rick omfl You don't seem to have heard about the washroom in the basement of CERL... ---------- response 2 04/26 17.38 chato cerl it has the nice little word WOMANS on it!!!! ---------- response 3 04/26 17.57 silver ve Hold it a minute... The men's is in the real basement, down the stairway that is to the left of the Matthews St. entrance, as seen from the hallway door or the stairwell on the first floor. Yep, really obvious! ---------- response 4 04/27 13.11 k mast p I believe that information concerning the locations of restrooms in CERL is posted on the inside wall of 165. I'm also sure that an operator would be glad give more specific info and even help wheel-chair users who cannot get down the stairs to the restroom in the basement. ---------- note 3 lesson 04/26 17.39 hoare iu I just wanted to tell the author of uni14, that I thought his lesson on common variables was very good.....and that I think it would be even better if he continued it a bit further. G. Hoare ---------- response 1 04/27 10.43 kimble ustaf That lesson was going to be (will still be sometime) part of a sequence that is being used to train student authors at university high school in orbana. I'm surprised that there was enough there to get much out of, as it had just been started (perhaps an hour's work done) when other things of higher priority came up to be done... Seems that there's never enough time to do all that needs to be done on this system......... ---------- note 5 outerror 04/26 18.39 felty 0 Out error after new system loading at 18:35 on 4/26/75. Out Error 0 0 ---------- note 8 LEAP 04/26 20.31 mike stan I have just finished working on an associative processor called LEAP, which is kdesigned to be interfaced with TUTOR code. There is a description of what it is and how ot use it in stan7, student mode. There is an sample program written in stan3, blocks a and b, showing the sort of thing that can be done with LEAP. The documentation on stan7 is primarily for those who have never seen this type of a processor before. I am still writing a description of the runtime environment, and will encorporate it in stan7 as soon as I am done. I just finished a long programming stint, and so there are probably a few bugs left in the code, as well as countless misspellings. I would appreciate any comments regarding the help lesson, or the actual use of LEAP. This program was writen as a project for IMSSS here at Stanford. LEAP is part of the SAIL language developed (cont.) ---------- response 1 04/26 20.33 mike stan at the Stanford Artificial Intellegence Lab. I hope someone out there can find a use for it. Leave comments, gripes, or threats in pnotes to mike/stan, or on the note section provided. Mike Achenbach ---------- note 10 phone 04/26 20.39 glass aero A question to the operators: How many times have room 165 users come over to your office and said "can I use your phone?. " Of course you can not let them use it for they allways would be tying up your phone. A solution to this is very easy. Why not make the phone at the east end of the first floor hall be able to make phone calls to other than just university numbers? This would not only be inexpensive but of great use to the thousands of users of room 165. Something like this has been needed for a long time. One thing that 165 lacks that good old 203b had, was, you guessed it, a phone. So, to whoever can make this possible, how about it? ---------- response 1 04/27 00.53 al mfl What a great idea. I have several friends in Juneau, Alaska who haven't heard from me in ages. ---------- response 2 04/27 01.13 artman uimatha the phone in 203b could not make long distance calls, and this type of arrangment is commonly available from the phone company, i believe (i know that dorm users can specify that their phones access only university and community numbers.) i think it is an excellent idea. how about it? eric artman ---------- response 3 04/27 01.56 al mfl Ah, but for the days when the phone in 203b COULD make long distance calls! ---------- response 4 04/27 08.05 k gorey 0 I am sorry to say that we thought of that idea a long time ago, but for some reason it fell through. Perhaps popular demand will revive it. Kevin ---------- response 5 04/27 10.21 kimble ustaf Remember the good old days when the non-pay phones in the Union could be used to call not only university numbers, but also numbers in C-U at large? Well....Ma Bell wasn't happy about that...seems that too many folks were using the free phones instead of the pay phones...after several months, the University acquiesed to pressure from Ma Bell and agreed to the restriction of the Union phones to just internal numbers. For a long time there were (still are?) apologetic notices above the newly restricted phones explaining that it was against Bell tariffs to have "free" phones in public places. I suspect that hallway phones in such a place as CERL would be looked at askance by Ma Bell and perhaps the U. for just the same sort of reasons. ---------- response 6 04/27 13.15 frankel p Right....also, that phone doesn't "belong" to CERL. I think the police department pays for it. And you wouldn't want to upset the police, would you? ---------- response 7 04/27 13.23 artman uimatha how about just hiding a phone in one corner of 165, then? it couldn't be all that expensive, and if it was in a "classroom", as 165 is called, it wouldn't be "public", then would it? eric artman ---------- response 8 04/27 15.13 dimitrief english What about having Ma Bell install a pay phone? ---------- response 9 04/27 18.27 m4 peanuts Aha, the obvious!!! Great IDEA!!!! Lets hear it for PAY PHONES!!!! ---------- response 10 04/27 22.04 artman uimatha boo! eric artman ---------- response 11 04/28 12.07 glass aero Well, is it possible to get a phone or not????????????? ---------- response 12 04/28 13.52 rader s The question was raised, as Kevin said, a long time ago. We haven't done anything because the project got lost in the shuffle...so we will start again! ---------- response 13 04/28 17.43 krauklis rtv362 The pay phone is the best idea presented in this whole discussion thus far. Alas, Bell tariffs make such an odius thing necessary. Also, a sign, plainly visible, perhaps with large RED letters should be posted in 166 saying: "This phone for operators only!". It might cut down on the number of requests anyway. And the operator on duty can always just point to the sign if people insist on asking. ---------- response 14 04/29 09.53 hinton ssu Does this belong in GENERAL NOTES (heh,heh,heh) ? ---------- note 12 out error/ 04/26 22.20 csgrad ames the following out error occurred at station 27-13 Out error 0 0 ---------- note 13 stupidity+ 04/26 22.23 glass aero Cute, real cute, "System reloading now" , then 5 seconds later, bam, press next to begin. The person sitting next to my lost 45 minutes of work due to the stupidity of some systems person. ---------- response 1 04/26 22.49 blomme s (a) This is system work time (b) Everyone was give several minutes warning and then a standard 1 minute "countdown" backout was done. (c) After further system work was done (before re-loading) a further "courtesy" backout was done just in case anyone had tried to do work in the interim. Regardless of their stupidity, it would seem nearly impossible for anyone to find a way to lose any amount of work, far less 45 minutes. Nearly every conceivable effort is made by the systems staff at ALL times to warn users of tests and preserve their work even if they do not protect themselves. If there is form of editing or work which is NOT guarded against, please bring this to our attention. Continuing to make incorrect and unfounded accusations is both unppoductive and insulting and is not appreciated. ---------- response 2 04/27 13.14 hody med anyone who works for forty-five minutes without backing out to disc (in prime time) must be badly uninformed... to do it in system development time is sheer folly-- but it does point up the need for a section in aids for new authors which might be called : * protecting like ... or somethign like that... how about it pso'ers? ---------- response 3 04/27 13.25 sellers arizona Jeff, I think the systems people are in the right here. I know you get short tempered when there is tampering with your terminal, but I think that we can't expect the systems people to break their back worrying about the people on the system when they are concentrating on debugging and improving the system. There is a price to pay for all the neat things that the system does for us. I vote that we applaud what they are doing, not put them down because they don't do more. ---------- responce 4 04/27 13.50 s williams uphys seconded.... steve williams ---------- responce 5 04/28 08.36 glass aero 1. The person who lost his work was a new author on the system, thats why he lost so much material. 2. I guess one has to learn these things the hard way. 3. There was no "standard 1 minute countdown" given. 4. I believe this person was doing some work in service I guess thats why he lost so much material. 5. The ONLY reason that this person lost his work was because only a 5 second warning was given before the backout. If he would have been given a few more seconds he would have been able to save all of his work. 6. "Nearly every conceivable effort is made by the systems staff at ALL times to warn users....." well not quite at ALL times it seems. I guess it depends who is doing the backout. No accusations made by me are incorrect and unfounded, these are all facts. ---------- response 6 04/28 09.47 jim g reading Facts are not usually prefaced by "I guess" and "I believe"! ---------- response 7 04/28 11.54 glass aero Jim g, please read again the original note, you will find no such words used. ---------- response 8 04/28 11.59 shirer vu Messages at the bottom of the screen are often ignored by authors concentrating on a difficult passage, or not seen because they happen to erase the screen as the message is written. Suggestion: 1) People working in SS, SD, Service, etc, be warned at the start to save material often in system off-hours. 2) Make the last "backout or else" message during off-hours appear in the middle of the screen! (with box?) I can't see why anyone should complain then!-VDon ---------- response 9 04/28 12.10 glass aero It's also hard to see then when they are only on for 5 seconds before the system goes down. ---------- response 10 04/28 19.24 creager cs109 I second the suggestion for a 'save your work' section in aids. Many new authors could use the clue-in. ---------- response 11 04/28 19.26 blomme s The statements made by glass regarding warnings given and the time involved are both false. However, again: if there IS someplace that a backout procedure does not save info (assuming no action by a user with respect to warnings), we do not know of it currently (other than personal note writing) and welcome such info. The actual time that system work was in progress is DOCUMENTED in the system log because of the nature of the work being done--it shows that this interval was 20 minutes (during which people could sneak onto system). Before this work started, a 5 minute warning was given, then a standard 1 minute countdown backout done. The message said "system off for 5 min" (it was 20 instead). When system work was completed, an "instant aneous" backout was done (rather than just killing the system) to preserve the work of anyone who had ignored the warning and snuck back on the system. ---------- response 12 04/28 23.37 fritz ames How about flashing the backout messages like alarm does? It would attract attention much better. ---------- response 13 04/29 08.35 glass aero The statements made by myself are both quite true. The way I got the 45 minute time was that the kid sitting next to me told me that he had just lost 45 minutes of work. "...during which people could sneak onto system." As far as the users and the operator knew that I talked to that night, the system was 'up'. (95 users on). then all of a sudden some minutes later came the message at the top of the page "system going down now (finially) " or words very close to those. Then 5 seconds later, bamn, down went the system and all of this kid's work. Thats what I have been saying happened all along, and thats indeed what really took place. ---------- response 14 04/30 04.23 blomme s I certainly hope that my patient and careful explanations are sufficient to convince those users not present and not involved in this incident that the system staff is indeed greatly concerned with providing every possible protection and warning for users and do so to the best of human ability. I trust also that the nature of the situation has been clearly explained and that the correct determinations as to the actual sequence of events, their duration, and the intent of the systems staff can be made by all. Although the request for info regarding any place that a backout COULD miss updating was ignored in favor of continued polemics, we HAVE found out about a way that a user of service could manage to lose work (see later general note on topic) and this will be corrected immediately. ---------- response 15 04/30 12.22 glass aero "... the system staff is indeed concerned with providing every possible protection and _warning_ for users.." You must be kidding blomme, unless you think that 5-seconds is the best possible warning. Your request for info regarding the place where the material was lost was not "ignored in favor of continued polemics" as you would have others believe, but I thought I wrote a reply saying that it was a problem with service. Remember this happened to the person sitting next to me who I had never seen before in my life. It should be interesting to wait and see if any more of your 5-second specials pop up. ---------- note 20 Power 04/27 01.01 olson ced Does anyone know of any lessons on electronics? Something on the order of DC Power Supplies, Oscillator Circuits, Transistor Theory, etc.... Sure would appreciate any help with this. Please leave a personal note to -olson- -ced- or leave a response here.. Thanks again D. Olson ---------- response 1 04/27 11.52 ken b cccs You might try -circuits- by Craig Burson. Also another lesson on amplifier biasing(-biasing-). And lesson -cge- -ken- ---------- response 2 04/27 13.54 wells ee340 there is a good lesson on diodes in which you design your own and plato tests it for you in lesson ' diodesign' if you are interested.. ---------- note 25 allwords 04/27 10.37 kimble ustaf With the following sort of code... arrow 1010 long 2 answer 30 write matched no ...when will a response of 30 be judged no? After nearly an hour of trying to run down the reason, it turned out to be because of a -specs allwords- about eight blocks before. I was aware that "allwords" is in effect until the next -specs- command is encountered in the _condensor_, and it is true that specs for other arrows were in joined units, so that even though there were probably 2 dozen arrows between the "allwords" and the above code, the "allwords" was still in effect.... BUT...should that have made the tag of "30" in the answer command unmatchable? If it's an unavoidable adjunct of the "allwords" option, it should be specifically documented. ---------- response 1 04/27 17.36 tenczar s If you ask for the "allwords" option in lesson aids...you will find that there is a note warning you about what happened. There are several other commands that have the same potential danger in their use...and we are trying to figure out a way to improve the situation. The main problem is that condensing is a linear process white executing is very non-linear. ---------- response 2 04/28 05.33 blomme s I admit bewilderment at BOTH the preceding remarks. (1) I have tried the exact code (with interspersed specs allwords, of course) given in the example and was able to get 30 judged correct--other tests with other entries also seemed to work. So: EXACTLY what was the code that produced an unmatchable answer? (I am willing to believe that there indeed could be some obscure difficulty in this area, by the way). (2) The original note complained but mildly about the "carry-over" effects of the allwords tag but seemed mainly directed at the fact that the answer simply couldn't be matched with allwords specified. Either Tenczar missed the point or I have missed some description somewhere in aids saying something about cases where allwords does not work (aids DOES mention the "carry-over" effect, of course). ---------- response 3 04/28 09.49 kimble ustaf Right...I was not really complaining about the fact that -specs allwords- remains in effect until the condensor encounters another -specs- command. The problem is with the answer command acting strangely. There wasn't room in the original note for all the code involved...I have left you a personal note, Rick, that directs you to some sample code that illustrates the problam. It is repeatable. ---------- response 4 04/28 10.14 jmk pso It would be helpful to us folks who have to undo future occurrances of problems like this to know what's wrong. Don' keep us in suspense’ please? ---------- response 5 04/28 19.44 blomme s Yes, I understand now...everybody is right (but me)! To explain: The problem is that in the EXECUTION code there was NOT a specs allowords in effect at the arrow BUT because of another preceding (condense-wise) specs allwords directive, the answers had all been condensed as if it WERE in effect. The "allwords" treatment of numbers differs from the regular treatment--the representation of a number under "allowords" is as a character string rather than simply as a number in the normal case. Thus, if condense and execution time specs re allwords differ at an arrow, then any answers that contain numbers cannot be matched! If a specs allwords had been placed after the arrow, then the answer 30 could have been matched (as a character string.); if a specs (blank) were used, the condensor would have stopped "allwording" and the number would have matched (as a number!) ---------- respopnse 6 04/28 20.02 blomme s Perhaps this difficulty can be explained in similar (or more) detail in aids--I have suggested this to Jim Ghesquiere (and Paul Tenczar deserves the thanks for getting this all straight). ---------- response 7 04/28 23.41 fritz ames Waitaminnit.... I thought -specs- tags were updated ONLY when encountered in excecution" What's this stuff about the order of condensing??? ---------- note 31 edit mark 04/27 13.19 sellers arizona I would like some feed back from system personnel and other users about the possiblity of an automatic ...C*marker...search upon entering a block to edit it. This would allow the user to selectively return to the exact point in his block where he wants to be positioned by entering a comment line starting with: *marker ---------- response 1 04/27 13.23 k mast p Interesting. You essentially want the C search word to be automatically set to '*marker' whenever you enter a block. Sounds feasible. ---------- response 2 04/27 14.03 sellers arizona No, not exactly. The C search might be already loaded with a different search item. That shouldn't affect the option I am suggesting. One could hide a C*mark like search permanently under the -next1- key so that one could return to the *marker line at any time, even when you are already in the block and independent of any item loaded into the real C search. It would automatically take you to the line if you enter the block with a -next1-. If there is no *marker comment in the block then it would put you at the begining of the block as usual. ---------- response 3 04/27 14.09 michael english i doubt if you'll find any unused function keys in the editor, since most of the "unused" ones perform a function if you are registered in certain courses..... ---------- response 4 04/27 14.14 frankel p Lets see...does -DATA- do anything? ---------- response 5 04/28 23.43 fritz ames PLEEEEZ don't alter the C option every time you enter a block!!! This would make for VERY unhandy multiple-block searches! ---------- response 6 04/29 20.44 telson arizona john... i am confused... whether of not there is a "*marker" line in the block, will the entire block have to be read through to find a potential "marker"? if so won't this make the editor very slow? most times the screen won't plot fast enough...i sure don't want to have to wait while each line is searched on the off-chance that the "C" command should have its associated word changed. but if this problem can be overcome then it would be good feature.... stan t ---------- note 40 kids 04/27 14.59 jones psych Can someone tell me what all the very young looking children are doing in cerl, using up the terminals? Are they authorized to be here? A lot of seem to have author sign-ons, and the rest seem to spend most of the time asking people how to get to the games... They can be very annoying at times... ---------- response 1 04/27 15.29 parrot iu Oh, boy... You don't know it (maybe), but you have just stumbled into the most common problem of PLATO. These little folks (usually referred to as vultures,little mamzers,etc.) have to be periodically chased off the system in order to allow authors to work. If you get real trouble with one, call the operator using "alert" or at 333-2375. ↓P.S. I am not at CERL, but the problem is universal. ---------- response 2 04/27 15.53 michael english Quite a few of them have legitimate signons in order to learn to program and/or just become exposed to a different sort of learning environment. If you don't like their presence or the pedagogical rationale, I suggest you take it up with the projects who are funding such activities. ---------- response 3 04/27 16.02 jones psych I don't mind the legimate ones, just the ones that giggle and scream and fight while waiting for their games to condense, and just generally act obnoxious. ---------- response 4 04/27 16.25 bowery comm Giggling, screaming and fighting are bad if they interfere with your work. If this is the case, the person doing the giggling screaming and/or fighting should be reported whether or he/she is a kid or a 55 year old professor. (lesson -alert- is quite adequate) "Kids" are an important part of the PLATO community whether they are playing games or doing authoring for some project, The experience they are gaining from this exposure to computation will be invaluable to them later on whether it is -dogfight- or -edit-. Keep in mind that the ones that are bothering people will benifit from learning that they have responsiblities to the other users. They will learn it more effectively with positive reenforcement of good behavior if you have the time to spare on it. Jim Bowery ---------- response 5 04/24 16.43 hody med as you can guess, i disagree that exposure to -edit- and to -dogfight- are equivalent.... exposure to dogfight is about as valuable as exposure to carbon monoxide or television what does dogfight do that those CRT machines in the bus station with the simulated ping pong don't!? ---------- response 6 04/27 16.47 bowery comm No one said that the experience of -dogfight- and -edit- were equivalent. As to your comparison to a bus station game: I agree fully. Except that the resources for a kid to get into electronics are not there at the bus station. As to your opinion of its value: Ask Don Bitzer's opinion. ---------- response 7 04/27 17.07 hody med yeah but don bitzer uses the lesson to demonstrate * that using the terminal is easy and fun * that rapid interactive responses are possible (there are of course other lessons which demo those attributes) demo is one thing and regular, longterm use is another-- the issue of whether dogfight is a good demo and whether those kids benefit from playing it are two different ones ---------- response 8 04/27 17.43 bowery comm Read this year's Engineering Open House publication and the interview with Dr. Bitzer, Or ask before you being speaking for him. It is something to the effect of what I said in my original note. Give them the resources, the motivation and the correct reenforcement and you have an evolutionary learning process which is extreamly viable. -edit- is better for this for some personalities. Some games are extreamly powerful motivational tools which have brought a large precentage of the functional programming efforts on the system. Contact with those should be encouraged to the point that they interfere wiht those who have already been motivated by observing other's creativity. It is true that there are pathological observers. For them there is no cure and they would be on a pinball machine anyway. At least the mafia isnt getting the money. ---------- response 9 04/27 17.44 michael english Somehow I get the impression that it's not the kids' benefit that people are worried about, but rather that they use resources (CPU, terminals, disk sapce, ECS) that more "impotant" users ought to be getting. ---------- response 10 04/27 18.06 bowery comm I sense some rightfully raised ire. I also sense that some would choose to make a scape-goat in their moment of anger. I just want to prevent this. If everyone has the problem in perspective then my notes are worthless. If you examine some of the wordings used, you might see why I percieved dangerous attitudes in some. ---------- response 11 04/28 18.32 m4 peanuts Hummm, true in a lot of ways. If not for spacewar, where would I be today? Acting like a normal person instead of ... True, its not exactly like watching TV as plato III was, but then again PLATO III wasn't color either, but that didn't stop me... then again neither did cards... ---------- response 12 04/28 14.27 pitts stmary in response to response no. 5, can the PLATO IV System be programmed to function similarly to the CRT (better than PLATO) machines in the bus stations that play a simulated game of ping pong???????? THE SORCERER's APPRENTICES ---------- response 13 04/28 18.39 daleske ames After much research, as far as I know, the machine cannot be driven at those speeds using present PLATO IV system. The terminals can be driven much faster than that using a separate driving computer system (like an attached PDP11 or micro-processor [upcoming PLATO IV]) The infor- mation passing etc. is just not fast enough, as is the (from what I here) pretty inefficient -calc- code... It would be best to stick witht low cpu usage games that have a little higher apptitude necessity than attempting to move a paddle into the vector path of ball... Al McNeil is presently working on a game that would fit the low cpu, higher apptitude type... John ---------- response 14 04/28 20.19 fuller users Dr. Hody: Your soap boxes just arrived at the bus station. ---------- note 45 changes 04/27 16.08 hody med If you are interested in the future management of the Basic Health Sciences Project at the U of I Medical School at Urbana/Champaign, please read lesson "healthnote"// note titled "SBMS" written on 4/27/75. ----------- note 50 sysboombah 04/27 17.19 layman matha the new blok directory pages are just fine ≤≤≤! ---------- response 1 04/27 17.44 hagstrom iuchem I dont think so!! Unless you come up with some easy way to access blocks 10 thru 17(as in lesson catalog) I think that it falls way short. The thing is..there have been many different ways of doing this suggested but not a one of them has been used(as far as I can tell). Please correct me if im wrong on any point. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬V↑^↑^↑^curly ---------- response 2 04/27 18.03 layman matha there _has_ been talk about an option to pick the number of 7-block parts displayed (with contiguous lettering displayed for the -long 1- there) -- when one doesnt want to peruse a large number of blox for editting, but wants to bank up to the directory just to send work back to disk, the short display is the better one -- both ways of displaying the blok directory have desirable features -- all the editor options are supposed to be ironed out later -- TomL ---------- response 3 04/27 18.06 al mfl No, the original way of accessing parts 10-17 is in effect. To get to block 11 you could press 9++ or ++++++++++ or Ʃ-------, All in all it is very convenient to have so many equally inefficient ways of doing the same thing. ---------- response 4 04/27 18.11 rick omfl I rather like John Gilpin's idea (response 11 to note 106): Make each page accessible by a single keypress by assigning shifted-0 to page 10, shifted-1 to page 11, etc... ---------- response 5 04/27 18.19 k mast p For the 1001th time,something WILL be done to make editing more convenient under the new 7 block part scheme, (and all of the suggestions presented before will be considered) BUT other things (sugh as just making sure it works!) have to be done first. Please restrain from comments for a few days anyway. ---------- response 6 04/28 01.33 blomme s Because of much antagonistic user reaction (maybe even right!) about changing to do "relative" moves with the number key entries to deal with this (then upcoming) problem, we implemented only SHIFT + and - I hope that all you perceptive people with the "obvious" and "simple" and "perfect" solutions can agree on some one (implementable) suggestion. ---------- note 66 7pt. confu 04/28 08.35 fay rtv362 FILE CONVERSIONS... I'm sure there will be a number of notes on this topic from people who are confused about the system file conversion from 14 block pages to 7 block pages. Allow me to be one of the first: I think there is a screw-up which occurs when con- densing the converted lessons. I got a condense error on one of my converted lessons. It told me the error was in 2-g. I looked, could not find it, and condensed again. The same condense error occurred allegedly in 2-g again. Upon looking again and not finding it I entered lesson X to look for it. Lo' and behold! The condense error was occurring in _3_- g, not 2-g. Has the machinery which gives condense error messages been confused by the lesson conversion? ---------- response 1 04/28 08.44 rick mfl There was a system note saying that for a while, the condenser would use numbers corresponding to the _old_ parts, not the new; i.e. -- OLD PART NEW PARTS 1 1,2 2 3,4 3 5,6 Thus your confusion: Old part 2 is now new part 3. ---------- response 2 04/28 09.25 k mast p This will be fixed as soon as the conversion is complete. (Probably tommorrow or the next day). It was possible to fix this before but the effort was considered too great for the benifit, Please bear with us. ---------- response 3 04/28 18.53 blomme s This problem plus much other discussion of the conversion is written in some detail in the notes referred to by the announcement on the bulletin board. Please read the general notes referred to on this topic. ---------- note 72 prime-time 04/28 09.44 golden s Our three days per week computer preventive maintenance schedule has proven insufficient. Therefore, starting next week we will add Thursday mornings to the schedule of maintenance times. Since we have, in the past, sometimes needed Tuesday mornings for special maintenance projects, I think it is best to say prime-time will start at 7:40 am Monday through Friday and 8:00 am on Saturdays. Nevertheless, we will continue to come up at 6:00 am most Tuesdays. Prime-time will officially change on Monday, May 5. The first noticeable change will be Thursday, May 8. We apologize for the inconvenience this reduced service causes. ---------- note 77 job/conn 04/28 11.38 heidi conn POSITION AVAILABLE Help develop health professions PLATO curricula with Schools of Medicine and Dental Medicine. Challenging and interesting environment. Requirements: Sound working knowledge of PLATO, Tutor programming, CAI-CBE lesson designs. Ability to train, supervise associate programmers. Experience in the life sciences, physics and mathematics helpful. Salary: Commensurate with experience, but will be competitive. (continued in reply) ---------- response 1 04/28 11.43 heidi conn Fringes: Reasonably accessible to NYC, Boston, Vermont-- skiing, sailing, climbing. Send curriculum vitae to: Robert G. Votaw, Ph.D. Assistant Dean for Medical Education University of Connecticut Health Center Farmington, Conn., 06032 or pnote to votaw/conn. All replies sent to Votaw will be kept confidential. ---------- note 84 seven 04/28 13.08 tracht ced Would it be possible to make 14 blocks of a lesson appear on the edit index page. It was enough of a minor nusance going from one index to another in a 28 block lesson before. Now it is a major hassle. Displaying only 7 blocks at a time definately is a time waster for me. ---------- response 1 04/28 13.22 golden s How many times does the same question need to be answered? All comments about the block directory page are out of order until the editor is changed. There have been lots of ideas presented. One of them or some combination of them will be implemented, then we will welcome your comments. ---------- response 2 04/28 18.51 daleske ames I think this was a viable discussion necessary before the change. The person said that he did not like the 7 block arrangement and would like it left at 14, not a complaint about operation at 7 blocks. (such as previous remarks). A response like: "The change to 7 blocks from 14 has been discussed previously. It has been shown that for more efficient use of resources, especially cpu time, the 7 block display will help greately. The 7 block system also has increased the amount of disk space that is useable. We are presently trying new methods for access to the blocks to make the editor more useable."≤ would have been a little nicer than "We dont want to talk about the change, get lost" as I understand the previous note to say. I understand that people do over work questions, but a little more patience would be appreciated by all. John ---------- response 3 04/28 18.59 blomme s Again: the bulletin board announcement refers you specifically to general notes on the topic that were written with some care and time (and says all these things and more). The ATTEMPT has indeed been made to communicate--but does require a reader at the other end. ---------- note 87 pnote bug 04/28 13.51 oberpriller arizona just got a bug in the p-notes. mosher of arizona just signed on and got the notes flag on the author page. there were no notes at all for him. he has not signed on for 2 weeks, and the file was empty when he signed off 2 weeks ago. he signed off normally, therefore his records were returned to disc. kinda strange. . . thought you might want to know about it. blue kangaroo ---------- response 1 04/28 14.17 k mast p Thanks. ---------- response 2 05/03 13.52 wagle iu I was writing a note to him about that time, but decided to delete it after I had finished it... This may lend a clue as to what the problem is... ---------- note 89 con game 04/28 14.11 david hebrew Three witnesses to the following: * Lesson -tide- "use"s blocks from lesson hebrew70. * Mike condensed -tide- and got some "use errors", to the effect of "lesson cannot be found". This was between 12:45-1:00 * Fred condensed -tide- at about 1:30 and got no condense errors, but some -LAB- and -DATA- flags did not get set (although subsequent -write- commands DID show up on the screen). [Same thing with LAB ¬+ DATA happened to Mike also] * "Dammit," I told Fred, "I'll parts it out." I did so, worked on some other lesson for about 20 minutes or so, and then re-partsed the block, and recondensed without making ANY changes to the block whatsoever. * Now it works fine. ---------- response 1 04/28 20.17 sherman rhrc This same sort of thing has happened to me in the past. I would condense a lesson which -used- other blocks, and would get a condense error saying "bad file name". I would then wait a little while, and recondense and no errors would occur. Whats the problem here? ---------- response 2 04/29 20.24 wegner phar ---------- note 93 what'sup 04/28 15.48 me smithy mtc OH!!!OHH What ever happend to the -NEXT1- option for us authors? While editing,this option gives easy access to your code in the last block you were editing..in returning from condencing or the author page or blockindex page... EXAMPLE: in the new part one,two and three lesson for some authors if you edit the first of your lesson than edit the second part of you lesson, you should beable to return to the second part of the lesson(previously coded)..but instead you return to the first part ???????UHH IS THAT RIGHT? I'm not upset that this option is not avalible however, I was under the impression that when the systems people said they were going to change the lesson index that all the options would still be available.. ---------- response 1 04/28 16.10 artman uimatha suggest you read system response to g-note 541. eric artman ---------- response 2 04/28 16.16 k mast p A quick test indicated the NEXT1 option was working for me. Can you be a little more explicit as to what the problem is? ---------- response 3 04/28 17.42 midden oldedit Could it be that you edited both blocks in less than i minute? The last edited date is only kept only to the nearest minute. Marshall Midden ---------- note 98 morecode? 04/28 18.33 elston rhrc Did I miss something or have I encountered on of PLAT<'S famous unannounced features? The limit on condensed code seems to have been increased (at least on this present version of PLATO). I put several lessons together and came up with about 11750 words of condensed code. 1500 words storage and 8050 words of common. Is this new limit temporary, due to increase still more, bound for a sudden drop to old levels, or what? I assume the increase is related to AMS or something like it or is it something to take everyone's mind off the disk changeover (snicker,snicker)? I am curious (Orange) PS: I consider it the greatest boon to man since 1500 words of storage. ---------- response 1 04/28 18.50 warner iu Lesson binaries________ (code) can only be 8192 words long (that's 2↑^16 Or something close). When a lesson gets to be 8000 words long in the code, you get a warning. Commons can be up to 8964 words long (that's 27 blocks or one 2-part lesson) with comloads, and storage can be up to 1500 words. This means that in theory you can run a lesson that is 18656 words long. Don't try it in prime time, though... unless you want to make a lot of enemies! ---------- response 2 04/28 20.11 elston rhrc That is the way it was, I agree on that. I ran a foul of the warning many times myself. But not so TODAY_____!! In editting a lesson i ran over the 8000 word warning limit and no warning. Being daring I said to myself (after stop1 condensing twice to make sure) hey neato no message where did they move it (the message limit to). On cramming bunches of code into a lesson I condensed it and lo it was 11745 words condensed code. I quickly slapped an 8050 word common on it and added 1500 words of storage and viola! (11745+8050+1500=20295 words total) And there you have it. Try it quick. It may not last. ---------- response 3 04/28 20.47 elston rhrc Also, as I thought a common may still only be 25 blocks long trying to use a common with anything greater than 8050 in the length field still generates a condense error. Any chance on extending that limit? ---------- response 4 04/28 22.09 grohne psych I wish to hell you'd shut up about it... ---------- note 99 1< 04/28 18.38 hecht ed judge e-(.5BH),no,ok,no Why is this satisfied by e=10. Thus judge 1/0,no,ok,no $$. judges ok judge 1/0=0,ok,no $$ judges no Aside from this anomaly, the forms behave exactly as one would expect. If you have any complaints, blame it on Seymour Cray ---------- response 5 04/29 18.47 thomasson users define x=v1 finite(z)=[abs(z$ars$48)¬=01777]$and$[abs(z$ars$48) ¬=03777] * arrow 1010 store x ok judge finite(x),x,noquit * * Another obscure example from * Jim Thomasson (4/29/75) ---------- response 6 04/29 19.27 weast users Also: x is indeterminate if x=x+1 The easiest check of all! ---------- response 7 04/29 20.31 telson arizona and don't forget that -compute- and -store- (where _form_ errors are returned in *formok*) will also take stuff like 1/0 and 0/0 stanot ---------- note 101 greek alph 04/28 18.41 m flory medneta Is there in existence on the system a charset containing the entire Greek alphabet, i.e., all 24? M. Flory ---------- response 1 04/28 18.57 golden s I think Judy Sherwood recently completed designing a complete greek character set. Send her a note. (judy of pso) ---------- response 2 04/28 19.28 m flory medneta Thanks. M. Flory ---------- response 3 04/30 11.23 judy pso lesson "alphabets" charset "greek" ---------- note 107 suggestion 04/28 19.03 warner iu A suggestion for the condensor people to keep them busy while the editor people debug seven-block lessons, What about a command called, say, "default", that would change the the value of "x" that the condensor puts in whenever it cannot find a unit? Example, suppose you are testing a lesson which is unfinished. At the present, any reference to the unfinished parts goes to "x", which simply leaves the student floating around in a haze, seeing "done" units and other garbles. With a "default" command in place, the student could be taken to a unit which says "I'm sorry, this lesson is not finished. Press -NEXT- to go to the index." (If the default unit does not exist, presumably a condense error or execution error would result.) Not high priority, but nice. ---------- response 1 04/29 20.35 fay rtv362 I have an alternative suggestion: put one unit in all lessons on which you are working called "incomp", then, when coding, write something like: unit nextone$$unit under construction do . incomp$$unit which presents message. * * *next physical unit This would take very few lines of code, very little effort, and would not necessitate the development of a new feature. The unit names under construction could all be grouped to- gether in one block named "contruct" or something for ease in finding them later to put in their proper places. Just a thought.... ---------- response 2 04/29 08.38 hody med did i miss something? students should not be using unfinished lessons, should they? ---------- response 3 04/29 08.51 b sherwood s I like Fay's suggestion (and I like Hody's operational point). We can not easily let x represent some unit, due to its rather special status. ---------- response 4 04/29 09.10 michael english What would you do if you wanted to use a conditional, Silas? jump n1,x,x,unita,x,unitb In the above I want to FALL THROUGH the jump, not write some garbage message on the screen! ---------- response 5 04/29 10.09 judy pso If you would use an-imain- with, say, data1 index Then you could ALWAYS instruct the students to press shift-DATA to get to the index. ---------- response 6 04/29 12.25 frye oldedit OR: simply create a unit "xx" or something -- it shouldn't be TOO hard to type "xx" instead of "x" when you're going to have to replace the "x" anyway! Dave ---------- response 7 04/29 15.17 rodby ames No, no, no, you've got the wrong idea. He wants the condensor to, when it comes to a unit it can't find, substitute a real unit name, rather than the x it substitutes now. This might really be all screwed up, but: As I understand the way the condenser works, it doesn't know when it encounters a non-existant unit name, so it just says 'Go to (do,jump,join,etc) the address in this table' which will be filled later with the actual address of the unit (when it is found). If it is not found, something is substituted which says to fall through. If this could instead be replaced with a real unit name, then lessons with units that aren't found could be tested more accurately than is now possible. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this concept appears to be very easy to implement. ---------- note 119 Intel8008 04/28 21.00 cchs siu I am interested in corresponding with any person who is interested in, has built, or is considering construction of a home microprocessor. I am most interested in computers built round the Intel 8008 or 8080 CPU chips, but would like to know about any others also. leave notes to Fritz in cchs siu. Thanks ---------- response 1 04/29 10.11 kritzman uiccph It seems that it's the latest craze here at UICC. In fact, you could probably talk to almost anyone on the whole system about it. There must be a dozen people on this campus alone who have, have considered, or are building them. ---------- response 2 04/29 11.27 kravitz users You might want to talk to Tom Rust at 3-3827 CSL or Tom Noggle at 3-4175 Physics unfortunately, neither one of them spends much time on Plato, so they probably wont see your B-note. Grey Ghost ---------- response 3 04/29 12.08 hightower p The latest generation Plato terminal uses the Intel 8080 microprocessor. (only 2 terminals are in existence at this time) A report has been written and will be published soon. However, no schematics or control program software will be released for some time. ---------- response 4 04/29 14.27 lieber m Al McNeil (mcneil a of uicc) has built the Altair 8800. The Chicago Plato Engineering and Development Laboratory is building one around the Motorola MC6800 chip set. ---------- response 5 04/29 20.24 hartman m mike, what happened to the LASTEST one? ---------- response 6 04/29 20.59 church iumed We are working on a 2 meter repeater using microprocessor and an entire 'station' interfaced with many goodies via micro -- (RTTY, Slow/fast-scan TV, etc.) Getting help from IBM biggie. If this is what you're into, let me know. CLC PS: Broecker/iu is working on a Plato interface for our CPR Video demo; he may prove helpful ---------- note 130 news 04/29 09.24 tracht ced One problem for me as a person who doesn't read notes of general interest everyday is the rapidity with which they change. And although I brouse through them once a week or so I find much of the info in them not useful to me, ie, notices of meetings far away. Yesterday I signed on to a lesson that had been changed to 7 parts. Although I had read about this in general notes I did not have it in my head when the change was to take place. Additionally when I looked in systems notes there was nothing written about it at the time. I would have been much better inform- ed if it had been written up in systems notes 2-3 weeks ago and displayed prominently on the author page. Perhaps systems notes could be used as a place to look for proposed changes to be commented on in general notes. General notes has too great volume for me to folllow regularly. ---------- response 1 04/29 10.11 judy pso Look on the Bulletin Board (option B from the author page). ---------- response 2 04/29 12.22 frye oldedit And be patient with respect to the current *notes* clutter -- there's (or so we keep on hearing) a new version of "notes" in the making! Dave ---------- note 136 goodbye 04/29 11.07 osborne iucs ojust wanted to say that this semester contained my intro- duction to Plato. I am very impressed and it was also much fun authoring, getting suggestions, etc. Soooooo i am leaving Indiana University now and thought i'd leave a note of general interest to all you nice people at CERL and the many others across the U.S. that good luck to all. John Osborne’ course iucs, author of lesson L. ---------- response 1 04/29 21.03 church iumed Hope you find a job, Ozzie! Chris ---------- note 138 wordbound 04/29 11.37 mike b cornell The I Just Wonder Dept. I was just wondering what the criteria for word seperation is during answer judging. For example, it's pretty clear that a blank between two character strings indicates that the two character strings are seperat words. But what about something like lensva? Or what about life-like? M¬ ike≤≤≤≤vB ---------- response 1 04/29 11.54 hinton ssu I suppose that the specific answer depends on how one writes the code: but the problem is ageneral one in linguistics: linguists are very reluctant to answer what seems to be an innocent and intelligent question---"What is a word ?" variants include "How many words are there in language X?" The only answer is "nobody knows." Take "drug store" "drug-store", "drugstore". All have been used as normal forms. If there sis a moral, I guuess it might be that we have to be very careful in determiniing what we will accept as answers: "exact" could produce all kinds of trouble in some instances, for example. P.S. Looking in dictionaries won't always help much, either..... ---------- response 2 04/29 12.21 celia ps0 In the tags of -answer- commands, the author may use only spaces as his word boundaries. (If I missed some allowable thing, please tell me, people!) The student may use space, any of the black keys on the left, any of the shifted number keys except percent, underline, single quote, and any of the punctuation keys except double quote. Thus student responses of "hot-dog", "hot?dog", "hot(dog", etc. all match the author response of "hot dog"; but student responses of "hot:dog", "hot_dog", etc. do not. The student can use as many separators as he wants, e.g. "hot:::!!::dog". A single backspace by the student is not taken as a separator. ---------- response 3 04/29 13.43 russ cornell Yes, that much we all know. But what about the SUPER and SUB keys? Do they also act as word delimiters? ---------- response 4 04/29 17.12 gilpin peer the original note asked about "the criteria for word separation...during answer judging". celia went to some trouble to provide a pretty comprehensive answer...which covers, among other things, one of the two specific exam- ples in the original note. the remaining question looks like one that might yield to a few simple tests. have you tried doing the tests yourself? if so, have you met with difficulties you cannot handle? ---------- note 139 tabset 04/29 11.41 judy pso Something funny is going on with -tabset-. unit test tabset 010 20 30 40 50 60 70 00 00 00 arrow 1001 ok According to AIDS (and logic), the first press of TAB should take one to column 8, 2nd to column 16, etc. Instead, the first press takes one to column 6, second to column 14, third to column 22, etc! ---------- response 1 04/29 12.11 midden propman (note, column on the screen, and not column related to the arrow) ---------- response 2 04/29 12.19 frye oldedit Right. More specifically, the Arrow command puts the "¬6" at 1001 (in your case), but the first character is echoed at 1003_.....so, while the tab is done at 1008, it appears to be at arrow+6..... Dave ---------- response 3 04/29 15.19 judy pso mmmmmmm... So I should have put -arrow 963- to get typing in column 1. I forgot about that. ---------- response 4 04/29 17.14 warner iu For all you nontechincal types out there (I was the one who discovered the bug in consultation with Judy)... the following command tabset o10 20 30 40 50 60 00 00 00 00 instead of producing tabs after the 8th letter, 16th,etc. produces tabs at≤≤≤6_ the 6th, 14th, 22nd,etc. In other words, add 2 to every tabset setting in order to get the tabs to come out right. [ comments: shouldn't AIDS be changed to give an example of this glitchy behavior? And is all this finagling to get tabs set really the best way to design the language? ---------- response 5 04/30 03.25 blomme s The tabset command was one of those old quickies written to get the editor working--we settled for absolute screen position. The command is quite consistent and easy to explain--and also rather an atrocity for any human to have to deal with. Perhaps some day someone will fix up both the form of the command and its function. P.S. I just fixed something concerned with the TAB key function that fouled things up in strange places in strange ways...it used to be the case that with the arrow and tab columns located exactly in the right relative positions that a space would be entered but no judgment forced in case of a long 1! If spaces ARE entered by pressing the TAB key, the proper checks for forced juding are now made. ---------- response 6 05/01 09.08 judy pso Once we get it through our thick skulls that -tabset- sets _absolute_ screen positions, then it's not so bad to work with. Since -tabset- remains in effect for the whole lesson unless "unset", I think that absolute positions are the only ones that make sense. ---------- note 141 rdrawbut? 04/29 11.56 ned tcourse Is it possible that the editor feature, (ID), which generates rdraw commands has a bug in it? When inputting sketches lengthy enough to generate several rdraws, I find that the resulting display has extraneous lines in it. Upon closer inspection, the code generated by the ID feature has some semicolons at the beginning of the tag field: rdraw ;10,-63; etc etc When that leading semicolon is removed, the resulting display is ok. ---------- response 1 04/29 15.04 frankel p Uh huh...OK, like I've been telling people, I'll be cleaning this stuff up soon. Thanks for the specific example. ---------- note 146 seminar 04/29 12.22 jim pso S¬ E¬ M¬ I¬ N¬ A¬ R by Jim Kraatz TOPIC: Common Qualifiers ¬+ Storage Variables TIME: noon (bag lunch); Mon, May 5th PLACE: 351 CERL Common qualifiers¬ (no load,¬ read only,¬ etc),¬ -inhibit unload-, storage variables, -storage-, -stoload-, -inhibit dropstor-, and -transfr- will be discussed. This is a continuation of the seminar on common variables. ---------- response 1 04/30 08.23 steve summers ufdent We miss the advantage of the seminars that occur there in Illinois. There is much too learn of the many facets of the TUTOR language and much of this is learned from experience. Would it be possible to get copies of the lectures or seminars concerning the TUTOR language, its applications and management. I believe that this will give us the benefit of your experience and past mistakes enabling us to avoid them. Steve Summers ---------- note 152 no. ONE 04/29 14.00 wood siu This is the oddest line error of them all. While calmly editing my lesson space today a line error came across and blanked out my screen. When I returned, (eureka!!) my one page block had been miraculously changed into a TWO page lesson block. Is this a god send or what? The previous owner of the space was doing something in a block titled 'que'. Good luck, systems people, with this one. (And thank you for answering my prayers, you who runs the big compiler in the sky!) ---------- response 1 04/29 15.16 judy pso How about some details? 1) Theoretically it is impossible for two people to edit the same lesson space at the same time. 2) Do you mean that it changed from displaying 14 blocks to displaying 7 and 7? Or do you mean that it somehow added an 8th block for you, thus causing page 2? ---------- response 2 04/29 19.27 al mfl What's a "one page block?" ---------- note 170 dirty 04/29 22.49 kufrin ssu Is there any specific thing recommended for cleaning the screens on the terminals? Ours keep getting dirty and with the glare from the over head flouresecent lights it's getting very hard to do anything at all with the system. Any suggestions would be appreciated. (signed......blind as a bat in springfield) ---------- response 1 04/30 00.06 paulm uimatha To clean the screen cover I have found that the edge of my hand makes an excellent wiper. It is very handy (pun?) since you never have to remember to take it with you. (no sarcasm intended) Another method of eliminating the glare, without necessarily cleaning it is to use a "Precise Angle Adjust- ment Kit" i.e. a 2≠4 propped under the back of the terminal. This makes the screen vertical, usually eliminating the glare. paulm, uimatha Me ---------- response 2 04/30 00.49 fuller users A damp rag followed by a soft, dry, cloth seems to be the best solution, since you are playing roulette with any prepared cleaners. The polarizers are easily marred/crazed by the wrong cleaner, and are upwards of $20 apiece, not to mention that they are in low supply. You must be careful in tilting the terminals, because excessive tilt messes up the action of the slide selector... Hopefully the next generation of terminals are going to have flatter screens.. Dave Fuller ---------- response 3 04/30 09.14 meers wright you could also turn out the lights ---------- response 4 04/30 09.26 ld francis mtc the installation and maint staff members i have talked with recommend use of a 2≠4 only to provide 2" of additional height, not 4!. Plato terminals are not designed to survive American Tourister- type treatment. ---------- response 5 04/30 09.51 hody med small amounts of surfactant (non solvent containing) cleaners don't seem to hurt the screen-- a common one is formula "409" available at any department or food store..(made by clorox co.)... a little green soap added to some warm water on a soft rag or "kim-wipes" also is great... we find that the edge of hands just spread the grease around as does plain water... anyone know what windex (ammoniated cleaners) do? we haven't had the foolhardiness to try? how about a new section in aids: cleaning the polarizer? (exciting.... not?) ---------- response 6 04/30 10.27 celia pso Be sure NOT to use anything containing alcohol. It eats up the surface, and destroys the polarizing qualities. ---------- response 7 04/30 10.31 oberpriller arizona we have been using Windex here since last fall, and have noticed no ill effects. it does an excellent job of cleaning the screens. a little goes a long way! blue kangaroo ---------- response 8 04/30 11.53 lh nawrocki mtc Have also used Windex (foam in spray can version ) for over a year with no ill effects to date, though th re hav be n some stran e hings hap ening just rec ntl . R/B ---------- response 9 04/30 13.36 fuller users Engineers told me to use water. ---------- response 10 04/30 17.46 creager cs109 As good a reason as any not to. ---------- response 11 04/30 20.18 kufrin ssu To all ten of you....My mohter thanks ya, my father thanks ya, the goldfish at home in the bowl thanks ya. (My optometrist, however, is very annoyed.) ---------- response 12 05/01 00.10 bowery rhrc I usually use a liberal portion of nitric acid (about 12.6 molar and about 6.4 liters). I pour this solution into the micro-fiche-e port and get some amazing graphic affects! CAUTION: evacuate the room while this is going on. The fumes from the graphics display are lethal since they from nitric acid when in contact with the mucus membranes of the lungs. Also be prepared for a long restful stay at your county rest home. Further, be it known that part of the graphic effect is to turn your skin yellow. This will disappear after about 2 months of LAVA 4 times a day (hopefully your skin won't disappear first). ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ -Δ↑^ This is not an advertisment.. it is in jest. ---------- note 174 lost work 04/30 03.37 blomme s We now understand (as apparently a number of others have for some time but have just not bothered or managed to communicate the exact details to us before) ONE way that people can lose work during a system backout. People who enter the service lesson directly rather than via the SS option in the editor will lose all their work currently unless they manage to specify a lesson and block to put the code in before the system backout occurs. This will be changed as soon as possible (we may be forced simply to rule out entries other than via SS in the editor) and we apologize for the lost work this situation has caused some people in the past! ---------- response 1 04/30 17.10 midden oldedit Just until I get around to a correct fix, this is no longer allowed. Sorry, but will hopefully have this up option up again soon. Marshall Midden ---------- note 177 notes 04/30 08.37 gustafson park Suggestions: 1) An optional vote be taken on each general note to deside its fate (life, temporary, death). The fate might be descided using some kind of confidence interval sceme. 2) Each note be classified by the author according to its purpose or content, for instance; this note would be about notes, and voting. Unlike the present form, a short _list_ of keywords would be kept. Then the library option in aids could scan the classifications, if the user wished, looking for one or more of these keywords. Hopefully, this would make notes a better resource that it is now. ---------- response 1 04/30 09.15 meers wright I think they have been working on a version that does just that for a while now ---------- response 2 04/30 10.42 schmuck iulatin Perhaps they might try the Delphi Conference techniques, with a predetermined value for number of responses and overall scores, both mean and deviation...does not seem too difficult, and would greatly aid in finding notes on whatever particular difficulty one is experiencing. However, what precautions are available to prevent one from multiple vote casting, ala Lake County' ---------- response 3 04/30 15.08 lambert uimc Delphi tecniques....!!!! Isn't that a bit much? There'd have to be a full set of "experts" continually assembled (or at least available) to hammer away at decisions... Is that worth the time and effort? Randy Lambert ---------- response 4 05/01 09.18 judy pso "NOTES" are sometimes 1) informative 2) infantile 3) infuriating ¬+ 4) hilarious but they are never dull. Let's leave them be. ---------- response 5 05/02 01.04 gustafson park to schmuck, no provision against multiple voting. if someone wants it to stay that badly, fine, let it stay. to judy, how bout boring, useless, noninformative. would you concede that if every person who read the note within a years time thought it was usless, that the note should be trashed? the idea was to somehow organize this mess and structure it a little,,,,,make things easier ---------- note 185 DATA 04/30 11.10 alessi eco108 In all ten of my student courses ALL data options have been turned off, and not by me (the courses were all last edited by me). They used to be set for output commands and execution errors. Why are they all now off ????? This has cost me quite a bit of data. I suggest all course directors check their courses to be sure their data options are still set right. ---------- response 1 04/30 11.42 chabay s It does appear that the default data options for all courses have been clobbered (all set to -off-.) I don't know why this happened -- will try to find out. Course directors should reset these options before adding new students to a course. I don't understand how you could have lost data for existing students, however, since the data options for individual students were left intact -- data collection should continue as usual for these students. ---------- response 2 04/30 13.22 alessi eco108 Your right about old students being OK. It was only some students i created yesterday that I lost data on. Thanks. ---------- response 3 05/01 01.59 blomme s This is a problem due to the recent conversion--all courses have lost this information; I am in the process of getting it back from the backups made of each pack before the conversion. Very sorry for this error! -------------------------------------- note 188 dotobug? 04/30 11.46 jmk pso I think I have found a bug in the calc compiler. I have some code that looks like (different but same idea): doto i,i‎1,n branch i ¬, (the delimiter for -writec-) is ¬X , backspace, ¬W c¬c (the cedilla or 'tail' part) is ¬e lowered by 9 dots I have requested that ¬q¬e be added as an accent to complement the ¬x that we have already. ( ¬q + backspace + ¬e) Suggestions of widely useful "composed" characters are welcome. Rules: "composed character" cannot comprise more than 3 or 4 keypresses. Characters cannot be repositioned except vertically, and possibily by half-spaces. (continued) ---------- response 6 05/01 09.58 judy pso I suppose it makes sense to start now to collect suggestions for "built-in" characters. Besides the systems people and the engineers who do the work, John Gilpin and I have probably spent the most the on character stuff. If you want to put in your 2c≤/ for future, why don't you send to me or to "gilpin of peer" a list. Give your 1) major subject area 2) characters specifically useful to you 3) general characters you would want included 4) currently included characters that you find useless (?) I'll start a file or pass it on if somebody already has started collecting ideas. ---------- response 7 05/01 22.23 fritz ames Well, as long as you want our 2c≤/ worth, how about a decent cent sign? This could be done with micro-I + backspace + one dot up + c (¬I≤¬↑^VVVc¬V↑^↑^↑^). ---------- note 199 new aids 04/30 15.27 jim pso new aids sections are: instructor mode data collection curriculum router lesson this included revising the command descriptions for: -dataon-, -dataoff-, -area-, -outputl-, -output- -readset-, -reada-, -readl-, readr-, score-, -lesson-, -end-, -restart-, -route-, -routvar-, and -allow- additional related areas were also revised. please send comment to "jim" of "pso". ---------- note 203 lessoncalc 04/30 17.09 pyron ames1 Is there anyone who has information on Lesson CALC? We are trying to plot a cycloid and would like to use the coding for parametric equations. Please send a personal note to pyron of ames1. Thank you. ---------- response 1 04/30 17.18 berger mfl Leave a personal note to bennett - phys for information on the lesson. ---------- note 206 -network- 04/30 17.18 rucinski uimc What is going on in lesson -network-? I was looking for the two sites in Texas (as shown on the map), but only got Wichita Falls. Pressing next got me to Missouri - Washington University. Thinking that maybe the code for the other site was just screwed up some way, I started with 'a' in the Southern States heading (Florida), and, after pressing next from the second site listed, got to those listed in Germany. Are there two sites in Texas? howcum i didn't go to the next southern state (bottom of page said i would) and went to the listing in Germany? Huh? Huh? thanx, terry rucinski ---------- response 1 04/30 17.36 dale texas We are here!!!!! It's just that the people who take care of 'network' haven't got around to putting us in the write-up. We are located at the University of Texas in Austin Texas and we have a total of one (count 'em, 1) terminal here. Thanx for your interest. thePhantom ---------- response 2 05/01 15.27 rikel med furthermore, the california listing in network has a number of errors. 1. Rand Corp. no longer has a terminal 2. UCLA deniss ever having a terminal, (win a few basketball games and they get arrogant) 3. Finally USC now has two sites under different schools, directors. etc, Any possibility of up dating this section? Some of these changes are over a year old! ---------- response 3 05/01 16.20 ld francis mtc USC = 3 for the record. ---------- note 210 outerror 04/30 18.22 gilbert ames1 I got the following error; OUT - ERROR 0 pyron 25 I was signing out using stop1 after condensing a block. ---------- response 1 05/01 14.01 midden oldedit Maybe found and fixed problem. Hope so! did I start a little early here or something? ---------- note 212 pablo 04/30 21.59 broadus cs357 Look at logocom Term art for a change of pace.... $bub≤≤≤ bub≤≤≤ bub≤≤≤ bub≤≤≤ bub≤≤≤ bub≤≤≤ bub≤≤≤ bub≤≤≤ bub≤≤≤ bub ---------- response 1 04/30 22.33 railing iu I did, and it looks very nice. I hope that you do more pictures like that. This system needs more culture of that sort. (Ya hear that ya bunch of slobs out there!) I'll bet all most of you liked was that picture in "dither". Malkin ---------- response 2 05/01 00.05 oberpriller arizona How many times do we have to tell them not to use animation in NOTES?? blue kangaroo ---------- response 3 05/01 00.13 al mfl Apparently you have to tell Broadus quite a number of times! ---------- response 4 05/01 00.23 midden propman It was reported by the author of notes, that he doesn't care, and notes are not usually printed. Ohter than the possiblity of people becoming angry over not being exactly to the point, the increased possiblity of autobreak, and general distaste... ---------- response 5 05/01 02.02 blomme s See previouse note by Al Avner of the systems staff who does print these notes and does object to the animation (as does anyone trying to get a permanent record of the notes files). ---------- response 6 05/01 03.28 fuller users Thank the lord. Do you HEAR that out there people? someone DOES print notes. Now, dammit, get off my back, all of you. DF ---------- response 7 05/01 09.12 hody med now also note that they read better if all in lower case since shift codes print kinda weird:¬W ---------- response 8 05/01 09.46 lh nawrocki mtc Back to the point of this note: I'm seldom excited by clever technology "just because". but I did like linus and pablo. Even more impressed by dither, though I am afraid the nature of some of the processes involved es- capes me. Dither took an exceptionally long time to complete when I saw it, due to mucho interrupts, but still worthwhile. (As for notes animation, since those who get prints dont want them, and I suspect those who do not are indifferent, seems like it would be a courtesy not to use them. Of course, there I go again, trying to be "rational" in an irrational world!) R/B ---------- response 9 05/01 09.47 michael english Since very few people read NOTES in printout form, I don't think it's too much to ask those few to read the (¬W)¬ symbol before shifted letters so the rest of us can punctuate and capitalize normally, George. ---------- response 10 05/01 09.53 avner s Caps are no real problem--those funny arrows are easy to ignore. But try to tell a non-PLATO person (usually a representative of one of the funding or evaluation organizations) that that line of weird symbols and letters is intentional and not an indication of some failure! ("sure, sonny, tell me another one...") Al ---------- response 11 05/01 10.03 john r reading If the animation really presents a problem, aren't there specific character codes in the string that can be -putd-d to nothing so that animations can't be stored? That is, isn't it the case that the embedded codes for mode shifts serve no purpose except to shift modes, and that there is no use for mode shifts in a note except for animation? ---------- response 12 05/01 10.26 friedman csa cscomments now uses a micro table and appropriately placed -force micro- commands to prevent the entering of any shift- characters. Presto, no more animation in cscomments. ---------- response 13 05/01 10.58 broadus cs357 Sorry but I hadn't read what must have been a great number of notes stating that animation was frowned upon in notes... I hope it didn't cause too much trouble... I really wish I hadn't used it... I didn't expect to get 10.5 responses about the animation and only 1.5 about the content of the note! bub Notice that I have learned my lesson. ---------- response 14 05/01 11.20 layman matha please do not use 3 dots (...) to end a sentence -- they usually are used to represent deleted text for various reasons -- how do you expect kids to learn the english languages -- ---------- response 15 05/01 11.46 black cdcc Use of the ellipsis (...) to end a sentence has a fairly widely accepted usage for also indicating incomplete sen- tences, when the sentence would not be completed in normal speech. Not to mention it's use to indicate a normal pause in speech, or an interrupted sentence. (Versatile little bugger, isn't it?) I will admit to a certain prejudice, since I use the ellipsis myself (but not in formal writing, just this conversational stuff), but the usage of which I write is widespread. Blackstar ---------- response 16 05/01 11.48 railing iu They can also be used to indicate a pause in the sentence, just as if the person was speaking or at the end of one to leave things hanging instead of finishing the sentence. It also comes from term talking and wanting to pause while the other person responds. Malkin ---------- response 17 05/01 11.52 hinton ssu since we're on the topic now (but how did we get here ?), most of us EngLit types who are getting on in years teach people to use 3 ellipsis dots for omitted material, and _four_ (including the "omitted" period) for end of sentence markers.... ---------- response 18 05/01 13.20 bruce iehl mtc Al, Just wondering, how do you explain the _content_ of these notes to the evaluators? ---------- response 19 05/01 15.39 jones psych _I_ liked the pictures....must have taken a while to put together....(FOUR dots, ok?) ---------- response 20 05/01 19.42 al mfl This note has all the continuity found in many of Picasso's paintings. Is that the justification for all the diversions that this note underwent? 1) Pablo Piccasso picture 2) Use of animation in notes 3) Elipsis Dot's enough people! ---------- response 21. 05/02 12.20 parrello uimatha Good God, the man uses dashes for every known punctuation mark in the blasted language and he complains when people use ellipses for periods.... ---------- response 22 05/02 14.58 weasel iu hey....first I can't use animation in notes....9doesn7t bother me a whole lot=.... then i can7t capitalize things... 9still not too bad...wrote this whole note without it... parentheses and all...= but when you try to take away my ellipses i get violent....cause i use them all the time.. cause with plato there7s no other way to indicate a pause... and i pause all the time when i talk....9sure wish i could capitalize some exclamation points..=...and also i vary between using three...and four....so you leave my ellipses alone and i won7t go around aborting your commons 9as if i could=........thanks.......zappa ---------- note 222 lost data 05/01 05.10 blomme s Due to an oversight, the recent conversion lost the data option selections and the info on the template record to be used for all new students. A special gathering of this info for all courses has been made from the back-up made at the time the conversion was run and all courses have been re-set to this selection state. Thus: all courses should now be set to a reasonable condition, but recent changes (past few days) to these particular options have been lost and will need to be reset. We regret the loss of data and inconvenience caused by this error. ------------ note 236 suggestion 05/01 11.43 mike b cornell Suggestion: I have the following suggestion for a new addition to the PLATO system's already large collection of special jargon. As we all know, TUTOR supports the segmenting of variables to simulate arrays (actually, they're vectors, but nobody minds a little cribbing). I'm sure that the more mathematically inclined members of the PLATO community have noticed that segments sizes 1,2,3,4,5,6 all create seg- ments which fit evenly into the CDC machine's 60-bit word. Now a number of bits handled as a unit of storage is gener- ally called a "byte," but I belive that, because of their special property (divisibility into 60) and their small size, these small bytes should recieve the special name "nibble." Thus, a byte of up to 6 bits is a nibble. Further, as many of us are aware, most byte sizes [continued in response] ------------ response 1 05/01 11.46 mike b cornell over 6 bits leave unuseable bits at the end of the word. I submit that these unuseable bits be called "crumbs," and that we say "your 17-bit byte will leave a 9-bit crumb." Of course, as indicated in the quote, segments of more than 6 bits will remain bytes. Leading the sublime author to the realization that nibbles are neat, and bytes leave crumbs. Respectfully submitted, M¬ ike≤≤≤≤vB ---------- response 2 05/01 12.42 al mfl I like it but reading most any IBM text tels you that such a term as "nibble" already does exist and means a 4 bit unit which is half a byte and represented by 1 hexadecimal digit. I think "crumbs" is very descriptive’ though. ---------- response 3 05/01 12.51 ken cornell Well then what about a niblet instead of a nibble or as an intermidiary between nibble and a crumb? The Jolly Green Giant ---------- response 4 05/01 12.56 deiss phar If 8 bits is a byte, 4 nibble, leftover = crumb, maybe 16 should be dubbed a mouthfull, 32 a snack, 64 a meal, and greater than 64 a feast. Maybe I've "bit" off moron I can chew here? ---------- response 5 05/01 13.48 shorty uni Are you really serious about this? Somehow I can't imagine myself saying "You could have 11 byte segments but there would be so many crumbs! I think your byte should be a nibble’ not a mouthfull!". shorty ---------- response 6 05/01 14.01 berger mfl This is all really a bit too much. ---------- response 7 05/01 14.37 schroeder iumusic ↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^↑^***MOUTH RESPONSE*** ummmmm.....maybe a 'feast' made up of clean niblets, (i.e. with no crumbs to be spotted anywhere) should be called a 'finger-lickin-good'??? ---------- response 8 05/01 18.28 deiss phar No - I was not serious. Seriously, I see no point in adding to the jargon that already surrounds plato and most other systems. It is just as easy to say or type "4 bits" as it is for "nibble", and for most people it will be a lot more informative. Beauford Bit-banger ---------- response 9 05/02 00.21 dankel ustaf I believe the correct spelling is "nybble", to be consistent with "byte". Nyt-pycker ---------- response 10 05/02 09.03 hody med byte your tongues! ---------- response 11 05/02 09.25 kravitz users word 32 bits (or whatever) half-word 16 bits byte 8 bits nibble 4 bits whore 2 bits quote from my cs306 prof, many, many moon-less nights ago The Grey Ghost ---------- response 12 05/02 12.23 parrello uimatha Please don't mix words with whores.... ---------- response 13 05/07 00.05 creager cs109 Wh*re is a dirty word...(note 3 dots) put it in talkomatic where it belongs....(4!) ---------- response 14 05/07 01.34 eric cornell this is a crumby series of notes....really degenerate! ***chuckle*** ---------- note 241 codecommro 05/01 12.17 layman matha since there will be new space for codewords due to the disk shuffle, how about an "inspect only" codeword for accessing common -- even a well-intentioned person can leave off the readonly in the common statement ¬+ make a goulash out of important tables ¬+ data (LB ¬+ dave: dont worry, I diont clobber anything) -- ---------- response 1 05/01 12.56 michael english Seems unnecessary duplication, especially when those few words are needed for so many other things: 1) Editing micro 2) Dataset read/write 3) Leslist read/write 4) Group membership 5) Usage in contact-hours 6) Charset read (?) 7) Save buffer and multiple-block-copy code (?) 8) Entry code for restricted files (?) I'm not sure I agree with all of the above, but they are some of the possibilities. ---------- response 2 05/01 16.31 friedman csa Well, my opinion is that we need separate READ ONLY and WRITE code words for: common leslist dataset datafile That's _8_ code words (7 new ones), I know, but the need is great if one is doing anything complicated!↓ ---------- response 3 05/01 19.45 al mfl What's a charset read? ---------- response 4 05/01 21.22 blomme s thanks for the list--this will make a good reference point for us, so let me add a couple of others that we know we will want: date and time of last change to the lesson info (this should be ONLY the author name/phone number/etc. info changes and not the code words, etc.) Purpose here is for updating system catalog entries. name of "used" lesson and concommitant change of use command so only block names are specified (currently 25: of all condenses have uses--the condensor stops and waits for disk i/o now; having the info in the lesson directory block would mean all disk i/o could be done beffore starting to condense) Use also needs to be changed so that ALL blocks of the same get "used" ---------- response 5 05/01 21.50 moor mfl oh, wow. will it truely be the case that we will have only one "used" lesson associated with a file? we have a series of files which contain up to 4 or 5 different editors raving in common a specific language association, but each of which works on a small piece of a larger task, and therefore has its own individual use commands (the blocks currently not being used are, obviously, partialled out). is there no other way to take care of this problem - otherwise we will have to quadruple the number of files to fulfill this same function (and have 6 of the seven blocks in the new fies be empty) ... ---------- response 6 05/01 21.59 blomme s Instead of "partialing in" the appropriate blocks you will just have to change the name of the lesson to be used--that's all! ---------- response 7 05/01 22.20 michael english A charset read code would make in necessary for a lesson to have a matching one in order to load a charset which someone wanted restricted. Myself, I think it's a bad idea, but I mention ¬it because it seems to me I once heard some- one ask for it. ---------- response 8 05/02 07.54 moor mfl rick- i don't see how we can require that. remember, we have users, programming on plato for years, who haven't known that the term key even existed! requiring them to go into the lesson to partial-in the proper code is, for some of them, a major task. such a "hidden" item (assuming that the setting of the "used" lession will be on the same or similar page as sets change codes) would cause horrendous problems - they would time and time again forget to change the lesson name, mis-type it. or whatever, and think the program was at fault when the execution errors appeared. i shudder to think what would happen when they press the wrong key and enter the lesson name in one of the security code slots ... ---------- response 9 05/02 08.49 judy pso to moor of mfl... I don't like the "use" idea myself very well, but I believe that I know intimately some of the _least_ ↑’naturally talented↑’ programmers around. I am constantly amazed at what they CAN do and ARE doing. It sounds as if we are going to need a DATA page for ↑’how to run this lesson↑’ + a page for ↑’author information↑’. A less crowded page would be easier for the author to understand. GUESTION: I have lessons where the _placement_ of the -use- is very important. In the proposed scheme, this does not seem possible. Where would the -use-d blocks appear? Putting them at the beginning fouls up the ieu; putting them at the end fouls up those who -use- define sets. What is the status of specifying a micro table to be used white editting? ---------- response 10 05/02 09.07 friedman csa Judy, I don't think Rick is suggesting removal of the -use- command; my impression is that he means the command would be placed wherever you wanted it, as now; it just would not specify the lesson name, but only the block name. So I don't think your problem will arise (I hope). ---------- response 11 05/02 15.26 elston rhrc I'm sure this has been considered, but why not have both. If the -use- lesson is designated on the lesson data page it would be the lesson -use-d from, but if the -use- lesson is left blank then a two tag -use- command would be allowed just as it is now. A two tag -use- different from the -use- lesson setting would cause a condense error (or alternatively over-ride the default -use- lesson). The idea of a default -use- sounds good to me. 20≤/ ---------- response 12 05/02 18.22 blomme s Wow! My "use" remark seems to have generated mis- conceptions at an incredible rate. No, we cannot have both schemes--the purpose is to make condensing more efficient and also to move another of the lesson name items to a place where a system change would be easy. It will also help in checking for "outside" connections that a lesson has when it is to be "published." The ONLY difference would be that all your use commands would look the same: i.e., specify a block name; and, rather than specifying the lesson name to be used as the 1st argument of the 1st use command, it would be set on the lesson data display. P.S. I assume that the lesson data will become two displays--one of codewords, used lesson, date/time of last edit, etc. and one of descriptive information on the author and the purpose of the lesson. ---------- response 13 05/02 20.36 blomme s One more remark on the used lesson business (while we have been diverted): we could easily show the name of any used lesson on the main block display. It seems to me that this would actually be a help to people trying to understand strange malfunctions with someone else's (or even their own!) lesson. Further uses for the new 30 words of space: time of creation we should keep both date and time of creation of a file, especially considering that one of these days some sort of temporary or ↑’24 hour↑’ file is likely to come into being (down you hungry users! probably not for many months!) an additional line (6 words) for lesson description info a single line of description information is really quite limited...we probably can spare 6 words to provide a 2nd line ---------- response 14 05/02 21.07 k mast p What about using 3 words to store a name and course of a person responsible for that lesson. It would then be possible to allow reviewers of lessions to send a note directly to the author of the lesson. (Or in the case of some of our transient authors, his superior.) Also, as the concept of a group begins to become established’ perhaps one word could be used for to store the name of the group with which the lesson is to be associated. This would be set at time of creation, and may only be changed by system personnel. It might then be feasible to allow a few people to edit any lesson within the group, (without having to have matching security codes.) Comments? ---------- response 15 05/03 00.25 bonnie matha Ah, Kimmy! Our group could really use a "contact" listing as well as the author listing. We have many programmers who come and go every year (some even graduate!), so we list our lessons under the designers' names who are responsible for the lesson content. It would be important that this "contact↑’ name be included somehow in catalog, since this is the person that is to be contacted. bonnie anderson seiler ---------- response 16 05/03 01.22 p mast p Also, the "contact" person could have access to the lesson without a codeword check, which should help solve some of the ↑’lost codeword↑’ problems. Phil ---------- response 17 05/03 01.26 fritz ames Judy: the advantage of an edit micro would be to have the micro automatically loaded each time you enter the editor (over-ridden by a micro set immediately before?). The way it is now, each time you condense your lesson (or just run it without re-condensing) you have to re-load any micro you want to be using. I am VERY much in favor of the automicro word! ---------- note 247 unjudge 05/01 13.37 b cohen med May I please offer a suggestion for a new tag to -judge-: ↓↓ judge unjudge ↓↓which would have the same effect as -judge exit- except ↓that the variable ntries would not be incremented. This ↓device would come in handy at an arrow with, for example. ↓-jkey help-, at which you provide some help at the arrow ↓but do not want to invalidate the keeping in ntries of ↓the student's genuine attempts at the arrow. Thank you for ↓any consideration. Barry ---------- response 1 05/01 16.33 friedman csa Wouldn't -helpop- be more useful than -jkey help- to generate the help text? (But I don't know whether pressing a helpop key increments ntries.) ---------- response 2 05/01 17.08 b cohen med Yes, -helpop- does not increment ntries, and might do in ↓this case. But the fact remains that -judge unjudge- ↓would be nice to have. I guess my example was not so ↓good. As a better example, suppose you require a student ↓to multiply 2 ≠ 3, and want to count how many attempts he ↓make before getting the correct answer. It would be nice ↓to have store. v1≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤¬Vjudge unjudge ↓so you could keep track of his numerical answers using ↓ntries. Barry ---------- response 3 05/01 19.48 al mfl I also think that a judge unjudge would have its uses. In one of my lessons I am using the touch panel and have to judge an answer right or wrong within a certain area, but if they touch anything outside that area I have to ignore. Ignore increments ntries so I had to create 'Ntries'. Although this is also low on priorities i think it should be considered. ---------- note 262 t-test 05/01 20.26 grohne psych Try lesson "arl2", TERM "tt" for an extremely efficient and word-saving two-tailed t-test. Sorry Al Avner, but I feel sure my t-test uses less words than yours in "stat". ---------- response 1 05/02 09.49 kravitz users arl 2 your t-test is also much easier to understand than the one in stat.... ---------- response 2 05/02 11.01 avner s I am speechless with awe. (When can we expect a complete description of the derivation in the Annals of Math. Stat.?) Al ---------- response 3 05/02 11.36 jmk pso A multivariate analogue is available (term ttt in lesson "multvar"). ---------- response 4 05/02 11.49 avner s If you listen closely you can hear Gossett turning in his grave. ---------- response 5 05/02 12.04 hody med commmmmmmmmmmon guys, is it good or not?! ---------- note 268 -access- 05/01 23.32 michael english Many lessons now contain various security provisions based on name, course, user type, or password routines. In order to standardize some of these uses, and in recognition of the fact that name and course checks will be a hindrance to the concept of a "published" lesson, I think the following com- mand would prove extremely useful: at someplace $$ XXXXs echoed here access condeword1,codeword2,codeword3 This command on being encountered would invoke a system security routine . Once invoked, the person would type in a word; the system variable *secure* would be set to equal the index position of the codeword matched, or to negative one if no match were made. ---------- response 1 05/02 09.02 judy pso How about an example, Gary? Many lessons are restricted for "this site only" or "not prime time". As we grow to a more library-like concept, it would seem that these restrictions would not be appropriate for "published" lessons. As for data-keeping lessons, should they BE "published"? ¬[ And please don't name it "access". I have gray hairs already from trying to explain the relationship between access codes and micro.) ---------- response 2 05/02 10.12 michael english Examples: 1) Editors which create or modify databases. Which options are open to a given person depends on her/his security rating. 2) Complex simulations which require a high degree of human maintenance and/or intervention. 3) Programs which display restricted data, such as student scores, progress, or personal data. Such lessons already exist, and invariably exercise entry control via name and/or course checks. Since ANY file on PLATO can only be as secure as the password entry page, I think it would be useful to standarize all security on the system by allowing the author to use a command which would essentially duplicate the system security routine. ---------- response 3 05/02 11.15 k mast p I tend to react against more places where a person has to 'type a security code' in favor of name and/or course checks. It is then up to the individual on that 'special' list to keep his records secure. ---------- response 4 05/02 16.16 friedman csa I disagree, Kim, Coding the name/security checks into a data base, or hard-coding into the tutor code, is no more secure than what Gary is asking for, and can be a lot less convenient. E.g., in a lesson I'm working on to format course records to show the data stored in nr variables by my router, I want to allow access on the basis of the course security code, typed in at execution time. ---------- response 5 05/02 17.59 michael english In addition, keeping a 'special' list requires that space be set aside in common, dataset, or source for this purpose. Not only is it wasteful of space -- it's even worse if you have to duplicate the security code routine in several lessons --, but it means you have to be constantly updating the list in common dr source as signons come and go. A better way of implementing the idea might be: secure at,condition $$ at=where to plot XXX; $$ skip command if condition false Then *secure* would be set to 1,2,3 or -1, depending upon whether entry matched code 1, 2, 3 or none. The 3 codes would be attached to the lesson along with the change, inspect, etc. codes, yet would be changeable even after publication. Thus a violation of security could be handled without changing the source code. ---------- note 276 SysError 05/02 09.22 harv chem Received the following message when I attempted to "design curriculumn for this course (cschem)" Error in detaching file --0 Please call a systems programmer Pack not loaded I looked at the user's list and I could not find a systems programmer on the system. ---------- response 1 05/02 09.38 rader s Thanks for info. ---------- note 280 edit error 05/02 10.03 sheahan matha Received following error after backing out of block in part 1 and trying to access part 2 in file hardprob. lesson: edit unit: direct1 reg 9↑^thV command array err ---------- response 1 05/02 10.49 frankel p Thank you. ---------- note 283 cdc job 05/02 10.55 b sherwood s Control Data Corporation has requested my assistance in communicating information regarding a position which is currently available: CDC is looking for someone with two or more years of experience as a TUTOR author and approximately five years total experience in the computer field, preferably in CAI. Position responsibilities will include consultation with authors, author training for new users of the PLATO service, design, development, and enhancement of user training materials, and general assistance in the definition and development of user services associated with CBE products. Applicants should have strong inter-personal skills. The individual selected for this position will be one of the initial members of the CBE User Services staff and will be expected to provide guidance to future staff additions. ---------- response 1 05/02 10.58 b sherwood s The location is in the suburban Minneapolis/St. Paul area. CDC is interested in filling this position as soon as possible. If you are interested, please contact Bob Brandenburg, telephone 612-853-6842 Control Data Corporation, HQS06B P.O. Box 0 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55440 (Sorry, he is going to be traveling and not on our system, so personal notes will not reach him.) ---------- note 292 data-reloc 05/02 13.29 bowery rhrc How about a S feature in the dataset editor? This would be useful in relocating tables of information that would require a small program and condense oterwise. ---------- response 1 05/02 23.57 swenson a An excellent idea and hopefully a feasible one also. Mark ---------- note 293 leap again 05/02 13.34 mike stan Stan7, the lesson that contains the code for leap is now lesson 'leap'. Again, I would appreciate any comments on uses people may have found for it. Thank you. ---------- note 297 pause term 05/02 16.54 jones mcl The following tutor code may be used to make the term key active at a pause. I have seen many lessons whior would profit from this. (Have you ever been in a lesson and not been able to find an arrow so that you could respond to someone wanting to talk to you? This happens in long ↓sequences of text where pauses are used to break it up.) pause $$anywhere in the lesson where -term- should work. join key=term,uterm,x ... unit uterm $$unit to press term for user at pause. 1term inhibit arrow arrow 0.0 press term specs nookno ok endarrow pause branch key=term,1term,x * end of term processor↓↓ jones↓ ↑^↑^↑^jones ---------- response 1 05/02 17.25 chabay s Why not just use pause keys=all? ---------- response 2 05/02 20.11 jones mcl Right you are... I think in that case that the pause with no tag should be replaced with 'keys=next' in most if not all cases. This should be made clear in AIDS, even with a warning against use of the blank tag pause. With the exception of games and the CS editors, pause is mostly used for breaking up↓long writes, and nowdays mostly with the wrong tag.↓ I wonder, is there any case where a black tag pause is really required? Possibly the blank tag should be ¬) to the 'keys=all' tag; that is what I thought on my first through n-1↑^th↑ν reading of the AIDS section in the first place. There may be uses of the blank tag pause, and for these I would propose a special hard to find tag so that most users would not be likely to use it by accident. jones ↑^↑^↑^jones ---------- response 3 05/02 21.07 john r reading There are numerous cases where the pause with no tag is quite useful. ---------- response 4 05/02 23.08 brand matha In which case to be able to use -term-: otoggle pause branch (key-term),oterm,x,oterm press term branch otoggle * oterm * * * works..... ---------- response 5 05/05 10.07 judy pso By using -pause keys=all- you can make the TERM key active at a pause. If you do not specifically include a -help-, -back-, -lab- etc, then those keys will just take you past the pause as if it were a -pause (blank)-. I still don't see the need for fancy programming in order to make ↑’term" active. ---------- response 6 05/05 10.19 p cohen med Right, Judy, but just remember, as Brand pointed out, that "unsuccessful" -TERM-s will break through the -pause-, so you would probably want to catch such an event and -branch- back to the -pause-. --paul ---------- response 7 05/07 01.57 eric cornell pause keys=funct may also turn out to be useful. if special keys like -BACK- and -HELP- are not defined to take you anywheres, they will NOT break thru the pause (only -NEXT- will break the pause). -TERM- functions normally. _/_¬≤-¬≤^^_ ---------- note 299 next num. 05/02 17.57 tracht ced Would it be possible to make a number press on the author page take you to the part of the lesson specified by that number using the last lesson used for the lesson to be branched into just as NEXT now brings you to the first part. ---------- response 1 05/02 18.26 michael english Tell him what pressing a number does when you press it. Cookie-Man.....he he he..... ---------- response 2 05/02 19.44 berger mfl Funny... it doesn't work for me.... Maybe they should use -HELP1-.... ---------- response 3 05/02 19.56 frankel p Now now, we are always able to change such hidden features. However’ this particular suggestion sounds sort of confusing to me. ---------- response 4 05/02 20.19 brand matha I think what he was trying to get at is if you have a lesson you were editing, that you would get to by pressing NEXT, pressing say "3" would take you to part 3 of the lesson you are editing, instead of always the first part.... ---------- response 5 05/03 01.49 fritz ames -↑^-↑^-↑^-↑^-↑^***System Response???*** ≤≤-↑ν-↑ν-↑ν-↑ν-↑^-↑^-↑^ -↑ν-↑ν-↑ν- I believe what Gary was referring to in his call to the great C.M. was the fact that if you should happen to have a"p" or "s" course (available at your friendly dimestore for only $100,000 and a box of 3. Thanks, D. Fuller ---------- response 1 05/05 14.22 jim g reading Good idea!!! My most frequent use of the user list is to see if anyone is using the varian terminal (9-7) before I walk down to it. ---------- response 2 05/05 15.22 layman matha yeah! ---------- response 3 05/05 15.31 baker me yeah yeah yeah!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- response 4 05/05 21.52 hagstrom iuchem Why not have a page upon entering users something like this?: What site(s) do you want to see? -next1- to see them all -lab- to see your records ¬6 Where you would accept answers like: ¬6 3,9,21 for sites 3, 9 and 21. Somewhat like the multiple block copy page. Just a useful thought. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬V↑^↑^↑^curly ---------- response 5 05/06 20.20 fritz ames Hear, hear! Try waiting for site _27_ during peak loads! ---------- note 415 rep/insert 05/05 15.21 sherman rhrc How about department: It sure would be nice if the editor had a replace and insert feature which would be accesed by RI X. This would then put you into replace mode for line X and then upon hiting next, would automaticlly goto insert mode. Im sure many people have had to replace a line, press back, and then do an insert. It sure would replace lots of display time and keypresses. ---------- response 1 05/05 15.37 jim pso on PLATO III, there was a RS which replaced with the save buffer. i like to leave the deletion a separate operation. it is too easy to make a mistake. that RS is for _r_eplace with the _s_ave buffer (not some more recent use of those letters). ---------- response 2 05/05 15.43 oberpriller arizona I agree heartily, shermy. An RI mode would be very useful. But, probably, low priority, unfortunately. blue kangaroo ---------- response 3 05/07 12.27 mike b cornell I've thought of this more times than I can say, but never got around to suggesting it. Its a great idea, which would save many, many keypresses. How about some one put- ting ¬RI on their list of things to do over the summer? Cookies? Pizzas? Bribes?? M¬ ike≤≤≤≤vB ---------- response 4 05/07 12.57 mike b cornell A friend of mine looking over my shoulder just sug- gested a better idea. This would be to have the LAB key toggle you between insert and replace when in either mode. This would be more generally useful since it often happens that one wants to replace several lines and _then_ go into the insert mode. I have no idea how difficult this would be to implement (since I have never seen the editor code), but if possible it would be very much appreciated. The ideas in this note were devised by Kenneth L. Rush, and are reproduced here with his knowledge and per- mission. (This in the spirit of a following note.) M¬ ike≤≤≤≤vB ---------- note 420 charedit 05/05 16.34 s stone iu How long has it been that when you exit from the character set editor, you are taken to the block last edited.. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but I didn't notice it until today.. ---------- response 1 05/05 17.50 white p It is done accidently sometimes, and should stop happening after the editor is rewritten the next time. ---------- response 2 05/05 19.45 s stone iu Too bad.. I like it. ---------- response 3 05/06 06.38 walton reading It is done that way if you pressed -NEXT1- on the author mode page. Doing that puts bad values in for some pointers, and the editor thinks you pressed -NEXT1- coming out of the charset editor. Rob Walton ---------- response 4 05/06 10.14 parrello uimatha He likes it, but it drives some of us nuts. ------------- note 421 7block? 05/05 17.24 mcneil a uicc Is it now possible to convert 2 part lessons into 2 7-block lessons? AL9000 ---------- response 1 05/05 18.02 golden s Yes. --------------- note 424 jobs 05/05 18.38 pitts stmary does anyone in cerl know of jobs at Urbana for the fall in any capacity dealing with plato? ---------- note 425 micro load 05/05 19.17 petak ed With respect to micro tables: it is very frustrating when one wishes to make some minor changes in say, a function key. One must input all the other keys for use with the -force micro- at the arrows desired. There should be some easy way to load the standard micro table, or ANY micro table into your own. If you have one already in existance, it is simple enough to copy that block, but that is not always possible or convenient. Steve ---------- response 1 05/06 09.04 judy pso Amen! All that typing is an unnecessary pain in the neck! There are "standard" micro tables available here and there. The current problem is the two-months-or-so-ago change which made it impossible to copy -charset-s and -micro- tables without the change code. Until they get this problem solved, you will either have to keep doing all that typing, or call somebody who has the proper codes and ask them to copy it into your lesson. Ask one of the consultants or a friendly "p". ---------- response 2 05/07 08.48 jan faa *whew!!* having just done this exercise, i add my sympathetic support for some sort of change in the way that the micro tables are currently handled. i wanted to change one of the keys, and force the micro at an arrow. fat little fingers were fatigued by the time i got the micro table filled in! ----------------------------- note 427 Lisp1.5 05/05 20.12 baskin mcl ANOUNCING: A new CAI compiler and execution package * *** *** **** * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** **** * * * * * * * * * * * * * **** *** *** *1.5 lesson name is 'lispoomp' and can be reached by choosing option 'l' in cs router. report errors to 'baskin' of 'mcl' or 'szolyga' of 'mcl' ---------- response 1 05/05 21.24 steve cornell Well, someone beat me to it. Although it isn't done, I invite any who care to learn what they can from lesson "lisp", which teaches the language. Please address any comments on "lisp", but not on "lispcomp" to me, steve/cornell. (LAMBDA (NAME) (PRINT NAME)) ((STEVEN LIONEL)) ---------- note 430 4800 baud 05/05 20.42 jerry texas Someone informed me that last night PLATO was shipping at 4800 baud. If this was the case, how is it that the terminal can adjust itself to a new baud rate without re-strapping it. ---------- response 1 05/05 21.09 rader s What is the source of your information? There is no provision here to output more than 1200 bits/sec/terminal. ---------- response 2 05/05 21.20 frankel p However, with the 4-terminal multiplexers, which multiplex data for 4 terminals on to one phone line,the data rate is 4800 (1200≠4). ---------- response 3 05/05 21.51 fuller users but not 1 at 4800... ---------- response 4 05/05 22.22 grohne psych This conversation is getting a little baudy. ---------- response 5 05/05 23.26 gustafson park When are they going to have 6 terminals per line? ---------- response 6 05/06 09.37 shirer vu Although theoretically possible, if you sat at the end of my (GenTel) line and watched the little red light flash on and off, you would think twice about even putting 4 terminals on a single line. Telephone company here does not try to put more than 1200 baud on an unconditioned line. ¬VDon ---------- response 7 05/08 11.55 whansen csa Apparently one cannot be baudy without being in condition. ---------- note 435 exec err 05/05 21.46 bc seager mtc Execution Error Error occurred in lesson - edit2 in unit finsd Current state - regular (pre-arrow) Last command - move 2nd command (not counting comments or continuation) Error type - array err Join sequence - idiem 6 icont 6 fixl2 1 Above occured while in SD mode, lesson shp65,blk a, part2 What hoppen???? brent seager p.s. works fine upon condensing ---------- response 1 05/05 23.13 frankel p Haha...OK, thanks for the report ---------- note 442 downers 05/05 23.52 grohne psych I know it's been asked before, but could the people in charge of these "15-30 minute" downers PLEASE put up some kind of notification of what-the-heck-wonderful thing it is they are doing. In this way, we peons can know for what (I'm sure useful) end we are running over to Dooley's to waste time every half hour or so. Thanks in advance. ---------- response 1 05/06 00.06 k mast p I dont think that you will see any effect when they finally get done testing this round. (Other than the fact the certain portions of the system may run 20-30: faster!) Essentially we are trying to combine the portions of the system that format output to the terminal and send output out to the terminal into one 'job' to reduce overhead. ---------- response 2 05/06 00.37 grohne psych Thank you very much. I think a report of this type would be great on lengthy (i.e. >10 minutes) system downers! ---------- response 3 05/06 06.58 frankel p But then, many of us are pretty busy, especially when doing testing that requires taking the system down. ---------- response 4 05/06 11.00 layman matha mast's response to this note didn't seem to take an inordinate amount of time, effort, or interruption to his chain of thought (i hope) -- with so many PLATO users who are computer or programming oriented, there is a pool of interest in observing the creation of a unique system that may have far-reaching implications in society once it gets off the small, experimental scale it is at now -- if even such a terse communication is too much trouble, then farm out the job to a hireling -- ---------- response 5 05/06 23.18 grohne psych As one polluted river said to the other: "My sediments exactly!" ---------- response 6 05/07 00.14 creager cs109 How about a message: Plato is taking XX minutes off to have a beer. We suggest you do the same. ----------------------------- note 445 stop1-next 05/06 02.36 rodby ames In the micro editor, after pressing LAB to see all, STOP1 acts like a NEXT. This reallt should be changed to be consistent with all other systems lessons. ---------- response 1 05/06 07.57 fuller users Like Mr. Petak pointed out above, there are many inequities in the present editor, which is somewhat of an antique... But that stop1 = next IS rather tiresome... Maybe someday... D. Fuller ---------- response 2 05/06 10.37 parrello uimatha Please, people! Do not try to suggest that the micro editor be made into something at least partially useable. That would require a complete overhaul, massive changes, a total rewrite, and the systems programmers are too busy. Besides, the way the system loads the "official" micro whenever some- one sneezes, there is no real use for this eminently useful feature. A Long-Suffering Microtable User ---------- response 3 05/06 12.12 fuller users Down, Red... ---------- response 4 05/06 23.19 grohne psych His subtlety should be a marvel to us all. ---------- note 458 X¬0 getso 05/06 14.31 warner iu Can the routine that accepts search objects in the editor be altered to accept the access and font keys? It is inconvenient, to say the least, to want to find an embed with the commands "x¬0a," and to find oneself looking at a piece of code containing '0a' If it is not convenient to cause printing of the proper acessed and fonted characters in the editor, then represent access and font by constructs, say,¬, and ¬A≤¬D. While it would be less convenient for the novice this way, it would at least allow searches. ---------- response 1 05/06 14.36 white uimatha It will accept access (shift square), but not micro. It will not accept font, but you can search for font by entering a search string in the -m- option. I too would like to see this done better. ---------- response 2 05/06 15.09 rick mfl You _can_ search for a FONT in the string. As best as I can tell, the command pseudo-arrow is a pause loop which plots out valid keys as it comes across them. Thus, when it plots access, no apparent change occurs.Similarly, when a FONT is plotted, you can't see any difference. However, it _is_ there. ---------- note 461 char 05/06 16.22 brand matha Copying from char commands doesnt seem to work with char commands in the first block of a lesson... ---------- response 1 05/07 09.50 frye oldedit will look into it -- you might be right.. Dave ---------- response 2 05/07 10.37 frye oldedit Fixed now. Thanks for the information.... Dave ---------- response 3 05/07 14.05 brand matha Sure! ---------- note 462 P.C.C. 05/06 18.28 dragon stan People's Computer Centre The people's Computer Center is a community of people and equipment located in two storefronts in Menlo Park California. They are a non-profit educational corporation, promoting the recreational uses of computers and acquianting people with computers in a low-key, non-threatening way. The Center runs classes, field-trips from neighboring schools and is open for rent time. We also publish a newspaper called The People's Computer Company. While we're interested in the recreational use of computers, we also see the Center as a learning environment. People think and learn as they play the games. Games can introduce new ideas. We would like your comments, letters or ideas. We will send you a free copy of our newspaper and a rap sheet about the storefront. ---------- response 1 05/06 18.43 bradley iu Get some PLATO terminals. Loads of fun. ---------- response 2 05/06 20.46 railing iu How about an address so we can write to it, or even visit it if any of us should ever happen to be in that area. It sounds like a VERY good idea. PLATO probably would be a good addition to the center. Malkin ---------- response 3 05/06 21.21 dragon stan see the next note..sorry.( 464 ) ---------- response 4 05/07 10.49 fritz ames Back in my high-school-HP2000-basic days, we got the newsletter from PCC and it was really nice. Has PCC branched out to anything more advanced than basic? ---------- response 5 05/07 12.37 berger mfl Yes, they're now microprocessor freaks. ---------- note 463 PCC 2 05/06 18.31 dragon stan For information ( note 463 ) write : David De Lisle, 1919 Menalto Ave. Menlo Park, California 94025 Thank you. ---------- note 468 symbols 05/06 22.01 halvorsen forestry RE: *list symbols Can this option be changed so that it does NOT compile symbols that appear in uncondensed blocks. As it exists now, it will gather all symbols it can find including strange symbols taken from each sentence of a NOTES block that I have in many lessons. This has nothing to do with the '*list parts' option because I would like all blocks printed out. I would just like to avoid all the junk symbols it gathers. ---------- response 1 05/06 23.00 blomme s You want all blocks listed, but only those that have real symbols to be examined for symbols? Sounds mystic! ---------- response 2 05/06 23.38 alan reading Wanting a symbols listing for only the condensed blocks does not seem all that unreasonable. Perhaps the *list symbols directive could have an optional "parts" tag. ---------- response 3 05/07 01.20 al mflu Better yet, the *list symbols command should have following it the list of blocks to be compiled or the locations of the blocks: *list symbols (start,defines,blockx) *list symbols [1a-1f,3c,15g] *list symbols parts $$ does all condensed blocks *list symbols $$ does all blocks ---------- response 4 05/07 09.50 layman matha if you have a *list parts in the 1st bloc, it will still include as "symbols" some things in that bloc whether the condense flag for bloc -a- is on or off -- i have gotten some prints with fragments of notes I stored in the bloc -a- which we usually use as a notes ¬+ misc info bloc -- you have to * out all lines so they are not taken as tutor "code" ---------- response 5 05/07 12.00 avner s A simple change that ignored symbols in uncondensed blocks would be a plague to those who have lots of "use" blocks stashed here and there in spare spaces (to get a complete listing of these blocks you would have to leave the flags clear until the print was done--thus producing wierd effects or unwanted ecs use if those lessons happened to be condensed while waiting for the print). Al ---------- response 6 05/07 12.03 auld mflu A simple soltion is to put all the condensed blocks at the end and put the *list symbols in the first of these........ warren ---------- response 7 05/07 12.10 friedman csa Why not make it an option, as suggested in response 2, thus leaving it up to the needs or taste of the individual author? The simple suggestion of a "parts" tag on the *list symbols shouldn't be very expensive to implement (some of the more elaborate suggestions in response 3 might be). ---------- response 8 05/07 16.48 blomme s If the only problem here is with notes, why don't we fix the save option from the notes to start each line with * so it looks like a comment (and encourage everyone else writing notes and putting them in their lessons to likewise?)...a simple clean and readily implementable way to go ---------- note 483 copyright 05/07 11.15 oberpriller arizona With all of the talk over the last few months about copyrighting and publishing of lessons, has anyone considered hard-wiring in the circle-c copyright symbol? If we will be going the route of published lessons, we will need this symbol. Yes, I know about charsets and -char- and ¬5. blue kangaroo ---------- response 1 05/07 11.26 k gibson iu It is just as legal to merely use the word -copywrite- the name of the holder and the year ---------- response 2 05/07 11.30 rick mfl But is it as classy? (especially if "copyright" is spelled incorrectly...) ---------- response 3 05/07 11.48 lieber m Great idea if you want to spend a few hundred dollars for new custom ROMs for every terminal. ---------- response 4 05/07 12.03 maggs law Sorry "copyright" is ok for the U.S.A., but for international protection you need the c with a circle around it. ---------- response 5 05/07 12.05 parrello uimatha Would something like (¬^v_)_≤_≤¬^vvvc be ok, even though it will look ridiculous on a printout? ---------- response 6 05/07 12.09 oberpriller arizona That's pretty decent, RS. If anyone wants one as a char, I have a decent one (1 char size) in lesson 'uaastr1', charset 'chars', under '/'. Look at the title page in student mode to see it. Feel free to copy it. blue kangaroos ---------- response 7 05/07 12.29 friedman csa Thanks, kangaroo, I have copied your copyright symbol (and given credit).↓ However, I felt your symbol had one too many dots in it, so I offer my version also. It may be seen and/or copied from lesson cslibrary, charset keytops, slot (m). ---------- response 8 05/07 12.41 meers wright and for anyone else who doesnt want to load a charset, the octals are: 07400,010200,023100,024500,024500,020100,010200,07400 ---------- response 9 05/07 13.08 oberpriller arizona I know the dot you are talking about, friedman, it is only a matter of preference. I prefer the more scripty look of my char. blue kangaroo ---------- response 10 05/07 13.20 layman matha do the copyright laws cover mode rewrite? ¬+ who put those awful double-minuses around the phrase "End of Response"? ---------- response 11 05/07 13.34 woolley p I did. Wanna make something of it? ---------- response 12 05/07 13.36 fuller users Hey, can you copyright a copyright symbol? -- df -- ---------- response 13 05/07 13.38 oberpriller arizona layman: mode rewrite does need to be copyrighted. what is actually copyrighted is the _preformance_ of the lesson. look for the old discussions on this topic way-back-when in old general notes. blue kangaroo ---------- response 14 05/07 15.10 aardvark phar knagaroo: what do you mean by _pre_formance? something happening before the lesson is formed? (think of it not as 'pro forma' but 'as _per_ form') aardvark ---------- response 15 05/08 11.53 mike b cornell Actually, it was my understanding, from those dis- cussions way back when, that it is the performance of the lesson which can_not_ be copyrighted. If I remember correct- ly, Maggs of law , et. al., stated that, in order to copy- right lesson materials (as the system people wish to do eventually), it would be necessary to print the _text_ _displayed_ and relevant graphical displays, and then copy- right _that_. This is not the same as copyrighting the per- formance of the lesson (whatever that might be defined as), it is more like the regular copyright procedures for text books. The facts is, that copyrighting computer software (such as PLATO lessons) has a dubious legal status, due to Supreme Court action within the last two years. This was my understanding of the issue. If I'm wrong, correct me. ---------- response 16 05/08 13.15 roper siu AAUGH!!!!!!!!!!! The ever bewildered Quetzal And to think all this started because someone wanted a copyright symbol... ---------- note 499 timeup ! 05/07 13.14 eland csa DID YOU KNOW that the timeup key will cause a next command to be executed, as well as initiate judging !!!↓ This fact is not documented in AIDS, but certainly should be there! ---------- response 1 05/07 14.26 judy pso I don't understand. time 1 time 1 arrow 2020 pause ok showo key showo key In both examples if "time" expires, the -showo key- will display 0233 which is the "timeup" value. Would you give an examble of what you mean by -NEXT- being executed? ---------- response 2 05/07 14.23 eland csa Sorry -- poor choice of wording. I have the following:↓ ***** unit test ... arrow ... endarrow ... time 5 ... next text *****↓ Without pressing next, I am branched to unit test. In other words, the timeup key causes a branch to the unit specified in the next command. It is as if I pressed next while waiting at the end of the unit. ---------- response 3 05/07 20.39 tatsuoka users i tried to duplicate your coding via: **** unit test arrow 1010 ok endarrow write time key.. time 2 next test ****** a keypress of next did not occur.. ---------- response 4 05/07 21.36 parrello uimatha No, -next- is not pressed. What he means is that -timeup- 1)Initiates judging if you are at an arrow. 2)Goes to the -next- unit if you are at the end of a unit. These are both things we all depend on. 1) is mentioned in -aids- under the "time" command. I don't know about 2)’ however, the following code will prove that 2) IS true. unit test at 1010 write time... time 3 unit test2 at 1010 write TIMEUP acts like NEXT sometimes. ---------- response 5 05/08 10.34 judy pso ah, I see. Yes, "timeup" will take you to the next unit if that is appropriate. I'll see about fixing AIDS. Thank you. ---------- note 509 llist err 05/07 15.23 mueller rhrc Execution error in leslist editor Lesson edit2 unit exist mode regular command do join sequence liserr 33 add 20 add 20 add 20 add 20 add 20 add 20 add 20 add 20 add 20 Error happened twice on attempting to add the 8^t^h element to the list (cont) ---------- response 1 05/07 15.26 mueller rhrc I entered the leslist editor, typed "a" to add, added 7 entries without backing out of the "a" option then on entering the name for the ninth lesson, got the error. It happened twice, and was independent of the position in the list. ---------- response 2 05/07 15.34 mueller rhrc Later, Error does seem to not happen if you back out of the "a" option before entering the 8^t^h lesson name. ---------- response 3 05/07 15.40 brand matha Ah ha! You entered the same name into the leslist several times, rite? ---------- response 4 05/07 18.01 brand matha Fixed... ( in new version that is ) ---------- note 511 CCUC6 05/07 15.31 lenehen wright Will CERL have a terminal at Conference on Computers in the Undergraduate Curriculum, Texas Christian, Fort Worth, Texas, June 16 - 19? Previous conferences have had one. The Conference claims many terminal systems will attend. ---------- note 521 drawb 05/07 20.32 joyce block Is there any command for drawing dotted lines? If not, would it be possible to implement a "drawb"? ---------- response 1 05/07 20.47 bowery rhrc There have been numerous discussions of this in the past. I think the idea has been discarded until a future PLATO system with this capability hardwired (programmed) into the terminal functions. There are algorithms for generating lines of this type. I am one of the many people who have worked out algorithms for this type of graphics. My code might be some what dif- icult to understand but it is faster and takes up less condense space than most. ---------- response 2 05/07 20.49 flory mfl As an aside, it might be mentioned that lesson *aids* does contain routines to generate broken lines in the "library" section...or contact judy/pso for further details. M. Flory ---------- response 3 05/07 22.12 carter comm Well, Jim, tell her where it is! ---------- response 4 05/07 22.14 steve cornell See old general notes, for a note of March 7, 1975 entitled "drawb", ¬$296. Jim Bowery's code, and my code are there. Jim's is faster, but mine perhaps a bit more understandable. You'll find what you want there. Good luck! Steven Lionel ---------- response 5 05/08 02.19 bowery rhrc Thanx for looking that up Steve. I just don't have the persistance or the memory to do it. The code in that note has 1 too many right parens in the only statment involving a -sqrt-. In that line make the first "))λ2" into a ")λ2" and it will function correctly. ---------- response 6 05/08 11.56 mike b cornell I've used bowery's code in my lesson. It's easy to use and fast, which is unusual for a routine that allows you to vary the size of the individual dashes. An unsolicited testimonial by, M¬ ike≤≤≤≤vB *** end of notes ***