+++ plato iv group notes +++ general interest notes 1975 notes beginning june 30, 1975 file onotes32 printed at 4:23 pm on june 11, 1976 ---------- note 0 lost files 06/30 00.28 rader s We have had a disk directory over-write this morning; all files that were affected have been either completely recovered, or (in the case of 18 files) recovered to the level of early Friday morning (the 27th of June). If you have any problems that could be a result of this, please contact a system programmer, Maureen Hoffman, or Bill Golden. ---------- response 1 06/30 10.49 kaufman uimc There was a similar loss of data on the disk packs last Winter. Shortly thereafter, in a meeting of the Campus Advisory Committee, Paul Tenczar said that within three months, someone would write a program to create a daily backup of all changes made to any lesson.This would mean that, at worst, only one day's changes would be lost. Paul further added that if no one wrote this program within three month, he would write it. That was 6 months ago. What is the status of that backup program now? Joe Kaufman ---------- response 2 06/30 12.39 golden s The backups have been made regularly for months. Up until now we did backups only five days a week, which is why we went back to Friday instead of Saturday. From now on, we will do it seven days per week. ---------- response 3 06/30 13.48 kaufman uimc Thank you for the response and the change in policy. Shouldn't the system policy regarding backups be put in a more prominent place than as the second response to a general note? I would have slept a little better if I had know about the 5-times-a-week backups which have been going on for several months. Joe Kaufman ---------- note 1 hello 06/30 02.34 scheffel css Hi! Anyone wishing to start a penpal relationship with me let me know. God! am I lonely. ---------- response 1 06/30 05.53 stone st mflu i have several adresses of several nice girls in france and england...if you wish one... leave me a pnote... Scott Stone ---------- response 2 06/30 11.19 parrello uimatha I don't believe this... ---------- response 3 06/30 21.43 ian conn she is a girl! that is what i don't believe! ---------- response 4 07/01 13.51 ostuni iu Leave an address... Will even send a personal invite to the up-and-coming conceptual tea party! ---------- response 5 07/02 23.03 jab music she's not a girl, he's a boy and not the owner of the signon either so how do you like them apples (definitely not cherries!) from a true to life girl!!! ---------- note 5 ass 06/30 08.26 fay 0 My personal thanks to whoever was responsible for stealing fuses from site controllers last nite. If our problems weren't bad enough last nite, some bozo took it upon himself to make the rest of us miserable who would have liked very much to go about the business of recovering from yesterday's disk problems. Do you guys want to have ALL privileges taken from you? One would think that it takes a little higher grade of intelligence to be a part of the system. Maybe you would be happy if 165 a ¬+ b were closed down altogether. ---------- response 1 06/30 08.40 krauklis rtv362 I sadly agree. Maybe we should start administering "maturity" tests before allowing anyone to have access to the system. Or maybe we should install TV cameras at every location and monitor the activities of the users. Perhaps armed guards would act as a better deterrent. Then again we could just close down the project altogether. Isn't it unfortunate that an unbalanced few are allowed to ruin a good thing for the rest of us? ---------- response 2 06/30 12.08 hody med actually this is probably a good time to point out that security at the PLATO computer room is probably the laxest of any similar large scope system anywhere-- * while nobody wants to promote the trappings of a (shudder) military security installation, perhaps simple, cheap, TV cameras with a monitor or two at the operator's desk or in the campus police station might be indicated. * there is nothing really to stop vandals and elves at present. * G * (PS: is that where the trouble occured?) ---------- response 3 06/30 12.19 fuller uimc George, the trouble was that students in 165b were stealing the fuses out of the site controllers... I would suggest you talk directly to Bill Golden or Bob Anderson about building security. df ---------- response 4 06/30 13.34 hody med i didn't realize the site controllers were there-- i thought they were upstairs! aren' they upstairs? aren't some of them upstairs?! ---------- response 5 06/30 14.10 rader s Not for rm 165. ---------- response 6 06/30 14.32 fuller uimc It's a lot easier to run 1 line down and split it within 40 feet of the terminals than run 50 wires from the 4th floor... ---------- response 7 06/30 23.49 parrello uimatha Conversely, it is also easier to rip the fuses out of a site sontroller on the first floor than to do it to one on the fourth. So the choice isn't all that intuitively obvious to the most casual observer... ---------- response 8 07/01 11.40 fuller uimc It's also easier to remember that the police station across the street would be interested in knowing of any person that steals university property... Like the fuses, yaknow? ---------- response 9 07/01 13.23 fay rtv362 Technicalities of the law vs. practicalities of the law: I don't think ANY police dept. would take too seriously any reported theft involving an object as small as a 5 c≤/ fuse. ---------- response 10 07/01 16.45 fuller uimc It's the principle, not the object, Tim... ---------- response 11 07/11 11.57 bowery rhrc There is more economic effect than 5¬↑ˆˇˇˇc¬↑ˇ≤¬I when a fuse is stolen from a site controller. Therefore it would follow that if this damaged $10,000 dollars worth of terminal damage was caused, stealing it would be a felony and the FBI should indeed be called in if not the CIA. ---------- note 8 comedit-no 06/30 08.53 mg smith mtc Weird?! I went into one of my lessons with the intention of editting the common. Actually, I wanted to transfer from another common; BUT, the option list stopped at option "d", pressin an "e" or "f" had no effect. To make sure it wasn't line errors, or something, I went into two other lessons and tried to do the same thing. Success! A repeatable error(?)! Then, I went into the regular common editor lesson (which is the same thing?) and tried it. All 6 options were presented. Weird, I though. Then I went back into the lesson, and upon pressing data to edit, the whole list of options were there! Wot hapind???? an "I-give-up!-SCHMUCKer!" ---------- response 1 06/30 09.50 p cohen med ↓ The common editor can make edits either on↓the ecs version or, if the common is not in ecs, the disk version of the common. If the common is only on↓disk, certain of the options are not available. E.g., you can't very well ask to have a common aborted if it↓is not even in ecs! And apparently you can't do trans- fers directly onto the desk.↓ I guess the lesson _editcom_ automatically places the common into ecs. Hope this helps.¬↑ˇ¬--paul ---------- response 2 06/30 10.25 mg smith mtc But, can you explain why after condensing editcom and then going into the common editor from your lesson, the latter two options are available?? PLUS: I've never had this happen to me before!! And I use the common editor quite frequently. (ie. every day!) I'm stumped! ---------- response 3 06/30 12.01 fritz ames After editcom brought your common into ecs, it stayed there. It _had_ been returned, but, since the deleter hadn't gotten around to it, it hadn't been deleted from ecs. Hence, all options were available in the editor. ---------- response 4 06/30 12.57 mg smith mtc But no-one has explained why options "e" and "f" weren't available, when, in the past, they were always available! ---------- response 5 06/30 13.58 mg smith mtc After further checks, I find that when the title at the top of the page (actually, second line on the page) reads Common Editor, everything works allright. When the title reads "Common/Dataset Editor", things go screwy. Why would there be a difference? HELP!!!! ---------- response 6 06/30 14.25 bradely iu All the other times your common was in ecs. ---------- note 9 new typing 06/30 09.08 david hebrew For anyone interested in a semi-basic touch typing lesson, try lesson -dvorak-. As an extra special added feature, you have a choice of keyboards to learn: 1) The "standard" keyboard. 2) The Dvorak Simplified keyboard. Note: The teaching strategy for this lesson is under learner control. Please leave comments/questions/opinions/obscene remarks/ bug reports/etc. by pnote. ---------- note 10 EPIC 06/30 09.34 fay rtv362 Now appearing on your local widescreen plasma panel. By the folks who brought you "THE CYBER-ING INFERNAL" (old gen notes, 5/29-6/17, 30 R11) "DISK - QUAKE" an all new epic disaster. directed by AUTO PRESSINGER music performed by "BITMAN TURNER OVERWRITE" with.. Sean Connery as Dave Anderson, swashbuckling his way thru the evil disk errors. Burt Reynolds as Bob Rader, thrashing the monstrous software problems Nancy Diskinson as Ruth Chabay, wrestling to control the diabolical Cyber console. Continued: LAB ---------- response 1 06/30 09.43 fay rtv362 Also starring.... Donny Osmond once again as David Frankel, that lovable prodigy, engaged in a fight to the death with the sinister recovery problems. Gomer Pyle in a cameo role as. the operator on duty. And 18 members of the King Family, in the roles of users whose files got zapped. Songs: "There's Got to Be a Morning After" "Nellie Bell" "The 12 Days of Diskmas" ---------- response 2 06/30 10.06 wells cerl hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah only one question.... Does this really belong here?????? ---------- response 3 06/30 10.27 fay rtv362 Sure: one of the best ways to face any difficulty involves _trying_ to maintain a sense of humor. I know I was hit hard by the disk problems, and several others were as well. So, I hope this helps make things just a little bit easier to cope with. ---------- response 4 06/30 12.03 fritz ames What do you mean. does this belong here??? OF COURSE! A true masterpiece, fay. ---------- response 5 06/30 12.30 bowery rhrc It was of more general interest than your question. ---------- response 6 06/30 13.41 wells cerl I agree it was a true masterpiece.. but shouldnt it be in pad????????????????? dont get me wrong I really like it but I doubt it belongs here...... Bill Wells ---------- response 7 07/01 13.48 ostuni iu This definately belongs in this here... Preserved on disk... For POSTERITY!!! Precisely... Like this response! ---------- response 8 07/01 15.45 fay rtv362 Ahhh! The roar of applause! How gratifying! ---------- note 11 edit 06/30 09.42 morgan arizona I was wondering if it wouldn't be possible when one is editing with the 'm' option or known as the character string editor that there be an option to just be able to just change the tag rather then the command . ---------- response 1 07/01 20.34 ian conn or how about a way using the 'm' option to have it replace all occurences, without having to hit 'M' at each one manually. phantom ---------- response 2 07/07 11.44 todsen cerl The problem with replacing all occurences at once is that you might screw up something important just because it wasn't in the 30 or so lines displayed...besides, i often DON'T want all occurences replaced! It just seems safer the way it is. ---------- note 21 pnotes 06/30 11.39 mailman ustaf Has anyone evr thought/requested/tried to add a feature to pnotes so that the author of a note could edit or delete a note that he/she has written, if it has not been read yet? This would save space if authors of notes didn't have to send notes that say "Ignore the previous note" or "Please ignore my note in which I asked you to ignore the previous note." ---------- response 1 06/30 11.51 mg smith mtc Yes, I think it has been brought up twice. I can't remember when the discussion was brought up, and I ain't about to go searching through the old notes today; I'm still trying to figure out why the stuff I mentioned in the note 2 notes previous to this happened. Boggles the mind because now everything is working right!! Maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. OHHHHHH, I know. Today is monday!!!! a "must-have-woken-up-on-the-wrong-side-of-the-bed-today- plus-the-fact-that-today-is-monday-SCHMUCKer!" ---------- response 2 06/30 14.20 meers wright As a mailman you should know that once a letter has been mailed it goes speedily to the addressee and can't usually be taken back by the addressor ---------- response 3 06/30 21.42 alan reading As someone who works with a computer you should know that retrieving a pnote before the addressee recieves it is trivial. ---------- response 4 06/30 23.08 fumento pso As someone who works with a computer you should know that reading someone else's pnotes is trivial, but... ---------- response 5 06/30 23.53 parrello uimatha Ignoring the insult game for the time being, it has been mentioned before that pnotes is written so that once a note has been sent, there is no real way for the sender to find it again. Sorry if this response isn't snide enough, guys, but I'm in one of those foul moods tonight. Blasted humans... ---------- response 6 07/01 11.54 tenczar s and the intention is to leave -pnotes- this way...we believe the current scheme causes a note-writer to think before he sends a note...thus eliminating a lot of "junk" notes...it is similar to the US mail...if you drop it in the mailbox...you have to make a federal case out of stopping it from getting to its destination...one can only imagine how much poison-pen letters are stopped by the fact that the author can't change his mind once it is dropped in the mailbox. (It must be obvious to all computer types that writing the software to "retrieve" a -pnote- before it is read is trivial) ---------- response 7 07/01 17.25 gilpin peer Pnotes is very nice just the way it is...but does take some getting used to. One technique that has its uses is to write a draft of a note and send it to oneself. One can revise and re-send as often as necessary and, when time permits, take a fresh look after waiting a while. This not only protects somewhat from keyset-in-mouth disease, but is also some protection against system crashes--which can be very handy writing notes after 10pm. ---------- note 33 nonrouter 06/30 13.28 warner iu I would like to see a flag added to students using the system router, which would enable these students to (almost) ignore the router. When a student whose flag is set enters the system router, he is jumped out to "rstartl,rstartu" regardless of the action of the router at the moment. Suuch an "ignored" student would be valuable in many academic courses where it is desirable to test lessons using routed students, but not modify the system router to allow all students into the course. ---------- response 1 06/30 13.40 chabay s If I understand what you want, you can do this with the "individual curriculum" options available through course records. ---------- note 38 no-helpop 06/30 13.57 bereiter matha It would certainly be more consistent with other features of the TUTOR language if at a -pause keys=all- with -helpop- commands in effect, pressing a help key activated the helpop unit. ---------- response 1 06/30 15.38 white p We plan to implement this soon. ---------- note 43 anseraseu 06/30 14.11 p cohen med ↓ I think it would be a good idea if executing↓an -eraseu- command automatically implied an -inhibit anserase-, since one usually wants to do his/her own↓answer-contingent erasing without delays caused by the systems erasing routine. But then I've always had lots↓of good ideas...which...were...never...even...¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ--paul ---------- response 1 07/01 11.55 tenczar s thanks for your idea...we will keep it in mind. ---------- response 2 07/01 15.38 campanini mfl Please No!!! By-passing automatic features (when necessary) is already enough of a problem without combining these two features. Eraseu units can have various functions that don't necessarily involve the anserase opeartion. ---------- note 46 jumpout 06/30 14.32 brand matha jumpout lesson,_mode_dit jumpout lesson,_where_ab jumpout lesson,_size_gork All of these jumpouts give a condense error of ambigious expression, and variable. I do NOT have 'dit', 'ab', 'gork', or anything else defined. The jumpout was the only command in the lesson (besides the unit command). Please, please, can this be fixed? P.S. I would prefer not to have responses on how to get around this. ---------- response 1 07/01 11.56 tenczar s this is an "error" that Bruce Sherwood said he would try to think through and fix...when he returns from Europe in August. ---------- response 2 07/01 12.52 brand matha Thanks ---------- note 53 boxes 06/30 23.08 carter comm For many years, there have been two principal suppliers of high quality cardboard boxes to the student/staff community in Urbana. I am refering of course to the Computing Services routing room and local booze stores. The first of these has recently declined drastically in quality in that the operators now tear the tops of the boxes off. When one uses the latter source, one runs the risk of either being hassled externally or internally into buying something which usually results in calling some friends over for a party, to help consume the brew purchased in order to get the free box. I have nothing against parties, but perhaps PLATO could improve the campus box situation. What is done with plato paper boxes? Could they be placed in an easily accessible place, maybe the lounge or a lower stairwell for removal by box users? ---------- response 1 06/30 23.47 frankel p We dont have that many extra boxes; we throw our used paper into them after we are done looking at it, and then they go to the recycling place. ---------- response 2 07/01 01.49 midden uimc Thanks Dave. I always wondered where those full boxes went to. humm, sometimes I have a one track mind... ---------- response 3 07/01 09.34 hody med are printouts recycleable? * if so, where can we "deposit" ours? * has the problem of security for programs been considered? ---------- response 4 07/01 10.07 glynn matha Has the problem of security for Hody been considered? ---------- response 5 07/01 13.26 char mathw ..... amen ....... ......... paranoia reigns ......when it reigns, it----! ---------- response 6 07/01 15.34 friedman csa Yes, computer cards and printouts are recyclable. I'm not sure who to see, but CSO and other users of the recycling service could tell you. I think it's a matter of having sufficient volume to make a trip to your building worthwhile. ---------- response 7 07/01 19.51 railing iu If you still want boxes, why don't you try your campus library, acqusitions dept., if they are anything like the one I work in, they have many, many boxes that they would be glad to get rid of. If you can't get any there, come over to where I work and you can have a mess of them. Malkin ---------- response 8 07/01 21.13 fuller uimc To append... I have had moderate success with physical plant, although I must admit I had a friend who worked there... Might give it a try... df ---------- note 57 bulletin 06/30 23.55 s stone iu Why is it that the new additions to dataset commands and operations hasn't been mentioned in the bulletin board? Is this slowly being phased out? ---------- response 1 07/01 00.21 shirer s Those as have put them in have been too busy a-fixen 'em to bulletinize you. I'll remind them. ---------- response 2 07/02 07.51 bruce iehl mtc To answer your question more fully: the bulletin board is slowly being phased in! ---------- note 59 find bug 07/01 00.45 tamar cerlcc The commands find and findall give an execution error in the case where the length of variables to search is less than the increment number. as: find obj,start,length,return,increment and increment is 6 and length is a variable that takes 200 words of the common at a time, and may have a remainder of less than 6. It took me a long checking time to find what I couldn't believe from what I know about all the do loops that I've seen before. Why can't it work as all others do loops? After finding this, someone told me that there was a note about it several month ago. I wonder why it wasn't fixed or at least advertised better.(and not only for findall) ---------- response 1 07/01 10.40 jmk pso Kim Mast told me (I wrote the other note) that he would fix the problem. He is gone for the summer.↑ˇ.↑ˇ..↑ˇ.↑ˇ.↑ˇ↑ˇ. ---------- response 2 07/01 11.00 tanar cerlcc Thank you Jim. ---------- note 61 editor 07/01 04.09 s stone iu In the editor, at the top of the page when it says 'BLOCK f = common', would it be possible to say which part you are in?.. 'BLOCK 2f = common'.. steve stone ---------- response 1 07/01 13.40 frankel p Well, the editor is already kinda slow, as we all know, and I hate to add more stuff to slow it down, but maybe we can work this in. ---------- note 62 pack 07/01 06.11 s stone iu I know this has been mentioned before, but: I think it would be very helpful in quite a few situations to have the -pact- command also take this: pack n1,Hi there,¬0a,name¬1 Steve Stone ---------- response 1 07/01 11.59 tenczar s thanks for your idea...we will keep it in mind ---------- note 63 ext keys 07/01 08.00 walter physio An input from the external jack at a -pause keys=all- does not break the pause. A -touch- key does break a pause of this type. Further a -touch- input does break the -pause keys=touch- as expected but an -external- key does not. The explanation in aids states that the touch key accepts keys > 256 which should include inputs from the external channel as well. It seems that three repairs are needed: 1. Fix keys=all to accept all keys. 2. Set a keys=ext to allow external input specifically. 3. Correct documentation in aids so at least the operation of the system is described until the above changes can be made. Currently only the blank pause will accept an external key. This puts all function key processing back to the user. David Walter ---------- note 64 gen notes 07/01 08.17 mont csa What happened to the general notes from June 17 to June 30, 1975? ---------- response 1 07/01 11.12 woolley p Available soon. ---------- note 65 July 4,5 07/01 09.31 golden s REMINDER: PLATO will be running, but there will be no prime-time on July 4 and 5. ---------- note 69 sitetroubl 07/01 10.44 hody med it is extremely easy to accidentally lock out all regular courses on a logical site by simply invoking the temporary course restriction list without making sure that the site lesson also looks at the permanent list. * several features of "site" make this extremely easy to do inadvertently... * i have proposed specific suggestions for the improvement of "site" with respect to this problem but the systems staff has not been too eager to pursue it so i suspect that there may not be too many instances of problems with this --system-wide! * the symptom of the illness is that courses normally allowed are restricted out... * are there enough occurences of this kind to warrant detailing some suggested changes? this is a request for anecdotes and votes... ---------- response 1 07/01 11.20 tom s reading It never happened to me. It seems pretty clear when you invoke the temporary list what is going on, you even have to press extra keys to turn off the permanent list... ---------- response 2 07/01 11.47 chabay s I did promise to fix it --- just haven't gotten there yet. ---------- response 3 07/01 12.19 hody med sorry, ruth c. nobody told me it was on your schedule! ---------- note 80 branchkeys 07/01 12.48 fuller uimc Study the following code: zero n1 unit here at 1010 writec n1=1¬,didn't make it¬,made it pause jump there $$ it would appear to the programmer * $$ that upon entering unit there, unit there $$ and a subsequesnt press of BACK, back n1=1,where,here $$ that -where- would always be at 1010 $$ encountered, because n1=1, write there $$ returning you to -here- with n1=0. calc n1→1 $$ such is not the case, however, as * $$ a press of BACK will take you to unit where $$ -here- exactly 1 out of 2 times. zero n1 $$ the explanation for such behavior, jump here $$ as traced by Bill Galcher and me * last night lies in that the expression of the BACK * (cont) ---------- response 1 07/01 12.56 fuller uimc * apparently is evaluated on encountering it, and * since n1=0 upon entry to the unit, and n1=1 LATER * in the unit, the BACK assumes the value 0, and you * flash on to -here- instead of -where-... and since * you are in -here-, and n1=1, re-entry to -there- * sets the pointer properly, and you go to -where-, * zeroing n1, and the whole sheebang starts over... * * Just a word to the wary... * * df ---------- response 2 07/01 13.44 shirer s Nothing should confuse you...it is working exactly the way it should. The -back- command is encountered BEFORE the variable is reset. It executes with the CURRENT value of the variable. ---------- response 3 07/01 13.45 frankel p This is CLEARLY documented in the second page of the AIDS write-up on the NEXT, BACK, etc. commands...maybe you should check there before spending a lot of time tracing such troubles. ---------- response 4 07/01 13.50 fuller uimc Yes, yes, yes, no, maybe, yes, I looked at AIDS, but it slipped right through. No, tis not a complaint, yes, I know it's my problem, but fans, I have talked to 5 people who I consider are good programmers, and they admitted to having BACK act like this and having to program around it. I just wanted to share my experiences in the hopes that it might save some poor person some grief some day. df ---------- response 5 07/01 18.50 blomme s Well, if "good" = "old" I might understand the possibility for confusion, since on older versions of TUTOR the back command was sort of searched for and executed when the key was pressed (and likewise for other keys of same ilk)...this mode of operation was changed long ago now so that those commands are executed when encountered--which makes a FAR easier and logical thing to explain. It also makes for the following simple rule: if you want to change the "back" unit because of a specific answer or completion of some operation or whatever, THEN (at the time you have made a new choice) execute a back command. ---------- note 91 common 07/01 14.26 s stone iu Will it ever be that we can attach to a variable common block? And multiple common blocks? ---------- response 1 07/01 15.09 chabay s I assume you mean you want to be able to use several different commons in the same lesson. Not in the forseeable future. ---------- response 2 07/01 16.21 white p I assume you mean you want your lesson to be able to have its common start at other than the first block of the common on disk, and to have more than one block of common used by the lesson. If you reread the aids writeup on common, you will find that the common your lesson uses can only start with the first block of the common on disk. and you can use more than one block of common. ---------- response 3 07/01 16.27 white p I assume you want to be able to "reserve" or "release" more than one block of common, similar to the way you can reserve or release more than one block of a dataset. The answer it NO. However, if necessary, we might add more than one common reserve flag, but it wouldn't be block by block. A note of programming practice: Commons are nice clean features in that they are not dependant on the length of a tutor block. The lesson specifies how much common it needs, and Plato gives him that much of the common from disk. Datasets are not clean, they depend on the tutor block length, which may change. You would not want us to add an unclean common block reserve/release feature to an otherwise clean feature, would you? ---------- response 4 07/01 17.03 s stone iu I guess not.. ---------- response 5 07/02 11.23 glish itv I'm not sure that common is all that clean of a feature. For instance, ask for ' common common1,10' and look at how much common space you are charged with - it turns out that no matter how much common you specify it is charged to your lesson in block units. Many, many times I only need and ask for 10 or 20 words of common but am always charged with 347 words (or one full block). I can partially condense the blocks I want to reduce ECS usage, and I can 'stop' and 'strat' within a block to further reduce ECS charged against my lesson, so why oh why can't I specifiy 10 words of common and only be charged for 10! If we get hit with another ECS crunch like the one that hit us last year, and get socked with a 1500 word ECS practical prime-time limit, every word counts. Even now it doesn't seem fair to be charged for something we don't ask for. ---------- note 92 holiday 07/01 14.48 linhares arizona to all people happy fourth of july ARIZONA ---------- response 1 07/01 15.04 mailman ustaf Happy 1st of July. ---------- response 2 07/01 19.21 telson arizona especially Tucson, Arizona whcih is celebrating its 200th birthday (thats right folks..there were people here back then!) ---------- response 3 07/01 20.16 berger mfl What is it that's there now? ---------- response 4 07/07 11.53 todsen cerl sun, fun, and Del Webb (AKA Sun City, AKA ....) ---------- note 95 comedit 07/01 15.23 s stone iu Would it be possible in the near future to make the ability to copy from a dataset to a common part of the common editor options? This is pretty esential to something I and a few others are currently working on and I see few ways to get around it. Steve Stone ---------- response 1 07/01 16.32 white p In editcom I put the features most often needed by the few users who need a common editor. What you suggest might be added if enough users say they need it. I wonder what you are working on that would make it "fairly essential" that this be in editcom, and not in a utility routine in your own lesson. ---------- response 2 07/01 17.45 bowery rhrc I too could use this. As to 'utility routines': that is exactly what editcom is supposed to be. It IS in a utility routine in my lesson just as a common editor would be if the system did not provide one to save on man hour resources in software development. ---------- note 102 defines 07/01 16.40 s stone iu What _exactly_ are legal characters in a variable name? I couldn't get much out of aids exept for a few helpful hints and the fact the somehow I SHOULD KNOW. ---------- response 1 07/01 17.23 cross p Brief tests show that: The follwoing characters are ILLEGAL in defines. + - ≠ / ( ) $ = , ≡ ][ : * → < > ; -backspace- -font- -access- -sup- -cr- It would appear that -space- IS a legal character in a define table if it is embeded in the word, but I never use it. ---------- response 2 07/01 18.08 steve cornell Hmmm...."sup" is illegal, but as some of us remember from a while back, "sub" is valid, Any particular reason for this? Steve Lionel ---------- response 3 07/01 18.33 parrello uimatha define graph x=v1,y=v2,xˇ0=v3,yˇ0=v4 ---------- response 4 07/01 18.34 mg smith mtc I would guess that it's because a "sup" would be exponent- tating something, as far as the computer is concerned. And "sub has yet to be used for something. ---------- response 5 07/01 18.38 parrello uimatha Also, access IS legal. For example, the statement define a¬=n1 defines the string "a" ACCESS as "n1". ---------- response 6 07/01 20.14 cross p I stand corrected. ---------- response 7 07/01 22.55 midden uimc Some people just can't spel. ---------- response 8 07/02 16.43 dave fuller uimc What did that have to do with anything? ---------- response 9 07/02 20.47 midden uimc (I was there when he typed -sub- and got -sup-.) Oh well, I sometimes think I'm just a little vague for most people. ---------- response 10 07/03 17.08 gilpin peer I thought you were alluding to "follwoing". ---------- note 112 NAMES 07/01 18.41 meinschein iu I am a new author who would like to find out the names for various lessons in Plato.... If you would be so kind as to list various directory lessons (like eliza) where there are lists of the names I would appreciate it VERY MUCH Thank You CLERIC ---------- response 1 07/01 20.22 berger mfl There have been many discussions on this subject. I'm sorry that I can't refer you specifically to the proper notes, but briefly, such a feature is an invasion of an author's privacy. I sincerely doubt that you will find a list of "index" lessons in general notes. If you have a real need for specific types of lessons, contact tebby of pso for names of authors in fields re- lated to your needs. ---------- response 2 07/01 20.30 m williams uni Since some authors might not like me exploiting their lessons, i have one suggestion! Do like i did,and just look around ,every once in awhile finding a new lesson and putting in your own list.Ask your friends about their own lessons and if you look around the place you are at, and find a new lesson on somebody elses terminal,ask the person if he would mind telling you what lesson it is. Its just like coin collecting. Happy Hunting! galloop galloop galloop GALLOOP GALLOOPGALLOOP THE KING IS A FINK!!!!!! GALLOOPGALLOOP GALLOOP GALLOOP galloop galloop The Wizard of Id ---------- response 3 07/01 22.54 hody med start with "sample" ---------- response 4 07/02 08.20 berger mfl Ok, George.... People might mention one or two in general notes... ---------- response 5 07/02 10.26 friedman csa I'll mention cslessons ans csguide, which will get you around in the Computer Science library of lessons. ---------- response 6 07/02 18.21 thomasson mus1 Chess is a nice lesson.↓ Jim Thomasson ---------- note 115 Gauss 07/01 19.37 locascio arizona I'm looking for a routine that does Gauss-Jordan elimination...anyone come across this lately???? ---------- response 1 07/01 19.46 white uimatha try "calc3" or "calc21".. one is an instructional lesson, the other a matrix calculator (authored by the [in]famous Red Sweater). ---------- response 2 07/02 09.48 jmk pso also block "matinv" in lesson genstat (designed to be "use"ed) Lesson multvar contains applications. ---------- response 3 07/03 09.10 stout iu Contact wheeler of iu, or myself, for lessons and utility routines to do exact Gauss-Jordan algorithm on matrices with rational entries. ---------- note 126 lost files 07/02 00.39 rader s All files which suffered in Sunday's disk disaster have now been recovered. Contact me, Maureen Hoffman, or Bill Golden if this concerns you. ---------- note 127 datasets 07/02 01.08 rader s The new versions of the dataset commands and reserve/release for datasets will now be running on the prime time versions of plato. See announcements in system features. ---------- response 1 07/02 09.42 sinder ee Ok, they are _NOW_ on the prime time version of plato. BUT, will they REMAIN in plato. This sort of announcement appeared in notes saturday morning. Also, the flag in system notes, "NOT available in prime time", was removed. A few hours later, the new command formats stoped working, in system notes reappeared!!!!!!!!!! (All this AFTER I had converted a couple of lessons.) Now, can I convert my lessons without fear of these command formats disappearing again? Please don't get the impression that I am upset with you systems people, I am NOT. I just want to know if the new formats are really here to stay! ---------- response 2 07/02 12.20 chabay s We think so! Sorry about the inconvenience. ---------- response 3 07/02 12.51 sinder ee Thanx. ---------- note 132 odd conden 07/02 10.01 sam martin ve I condensed a lesson which was missing two units. I got the normal condense errors. When I entered the index of the lesson, some of the flags were improperly set. So I displayed all my student variables w/ data1 from step mode. Low and behold I not only had the condense error warning, but I had also what was apparently someone elses p-notes and some tutor code. This was repeatable although I got different p-notes each time. Is this normal to have odd bits of junk dumped into the student variables after a condense error? ---------- response 1 07/02 10.53 white p Currently yes, but this will be fixed soon. ---------- response 2 07/02 23.19 s stone iu You should see what happens SOMETIMES when using storage. I have had bits of my block directory shown when displaying my storage. Strange but true! ---------- note 133 SS?sos 07/02 10.26 me smithy mtc While fumbling thru the SS option today it was noticed that SS is very picky about what it will except as far as the display of code..like(unit,size,rotate,do..ect). While SD is very kind to let you skip over that which it will not display and go on to any code following that will display. ? Could the option in SD mode be available for SS also.? I know at this time of trials and tribulations it is not exactly a priority for programers. . . but in the futrue could this little goodie be added ? ---------- response 1 07/02 11.15 frankel p Yes, the SD/SS stuff will probably be combined/rewritten to be a whole bunch nicer. ---------- response 2 07/02 13.21 me smithy mtc Don't hurry yourself . Thanks for your response .. O≤ˆO≤¬p≤ˆˆ*≤ˆˆ↑ˇ≤¬≤ˆ>ˆ< There's a bug in this machine........ˇ. ---------- response 3 07/02 18.13 midden uimc Humm, yes, someone will be rewritting/combining/throwing stuff out/and saying the usual things when things don't work as expected. But till he gets hired, things will be as they are presently. Oh well... so much for red tape. Marshall Midden ---------- note 136 ignore _ 07/02 11.12 tom reading1 Say, folks, so far today every -ignore- command I've come across flags as a condense error. This could ruin some of our lessons using ignore to stop unexpected inputs! Could someone look into it? ---------- response 1 07/02 11.21 frankel p sorry...will try to fix soon. ---------- response 2 07/02 11.35 frankel p OK, should be fixed now... ---------- response 3 07/02 12.43 tom s reading Thank you very much. ---------- note 145 next 07/02 15.27 brand matha do gork(3) $$ works jump gork(3) $$ works next gork(3) $$ (or back or lab) gives condense error ?? ---------- response 1 07/02 15.34 frankel p The argument stuff is "interpreted" when it is encountered. When you jump to gork(3), right then and there PLATO figures out what the 3 is, and remembers it while it jumps to unit gork...then it sticks the 3 in the variable specified in the unit...having it work with the next/back commands would mean saving the arguments when the next or back or whatever command is encountered, then, when the key is hit, going back and figuring out where the arguments were saved, and so on...messy. ---------- response 2 07/02 15.55 darlene pso AIDS states that only four commands are able to pass arguments and they are: join, do, goto, and jump no others. (described in the command descriptions and in passing arguments) ---------- response 3 07/02 16.41 warner iu Could another one be added...to wit, nextnow? ---------- response 4 07/02 21.36 jones mcl 'nother vote for nextnow, but in the meanwhile you may use next $$blank tag to disarm any active $$next command in this unit pause keys=next jump unitname( ..parameters... ) The fact that this is equivalent to nextnow in every respect that I can find is the justification for allowing parameter passing on it. In no way does it involve the problems associated with key arming (next command, etc) that were previously mentioned. jones ---------- response 5 07/02 21.45 hody med will a command that normally passes arguments do so when used in a conditional format: do (zonk>zap),gork(21,n4),sparkle(26,n9) ?????? * i know it is easy to test but i was not able to find it in aids easily and perhaps it should be there and anyhow i haven't stuck my neck way out in such a long time....... ---------- response 6 07/03 09.17 p cohen med ↓ Yes , conditional forms for passing arguments are↓all right. Incidentally, I presume that -nextnow- also sets a pointer just as -next- does, except it makes NEXT the only active key, and thus argument passing would run into the↓same problem. Also, I think in jones' example that the -next (blank)- to disarm the next pointer is a redun- dant tactic, since -pause keys=next- is only "broken" by the NEXT key, and -jump-ing then changes the main unit.≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ--paul ---------- response 7 07/03 09.36 jones mcl Dr. Hody: yes you can pass parameters on a conditional do join jump or goto. Paul Cohen: if the -next- key behaved like any of the other function keys, the -next (blank tag)- would be needed to avoid an automatic jump as soon as the pause is satisfied, before the explicit jump is encountered. You may be right that it is not required for the -next- key. ---------- response 8 07/03 22.49 brant ames Although messy it would still be nice to have arguments passed to units with the function keys. In particular I have needed something like: next i,diddle(9),diddle(3410),etc. Yes I got around not having the command, but that was a little messy too. George Brant ---------- note 150 out 07/02 17.02 baldoni ssu There is a small bug in lesson 'introtutor' in the section on branching the student. The branching drill is erratic. Sometimes it asks one question sometimes more. ???? thanks ---------- response 1 07/02 21.21 jim pso the number of questions asked depends on the past history of the student. this is just one feature we have using computer-based education. ---------- note 151 chars? 07/02 17.05 wagle iu where can one find a charset with ALL of the default charactors? ---------- response 1 07/02 17.57 white p try "charsets", "new" ---------- response 2 07/02 19.56 wagle iu about exactly what i wanted! thanx! ---------- note 156 touchstore 07/02 20.26 sam martin ve unit test $$ this code works ok, if either the * $$ store or touch are successful * some code * arrow somewhere * more code specs nookno showz anscnt pause jump test $$but if both the touch ¬+ store touch a $$fail, then anscnt = 3???? touch b $$Why is that? touch c store n1 : I can get around this by following the store w/ -judge formok,x,ignore- but I am wondering why anscnt is set to three Condense or inspect lesson 'respire' block 'touchstore' for a littie more info. ---------- response 1 07/02 20.58 telson arizona see aids on this.. but there were 3 unmatched -touch- commands.. so anscnt = 3. ---------- response 2 07/02 21.11 sam martin ve Well, anscnt is the number of certain judging commands encoutered before finding one that matches. : A -store- failure should set anscnt to 0 No matches should set it to -1 : I don't see how having three unmatched touch commands would set anscnt to 3. ---------- note 159 new lesson 07/02 21.03 kelso lawyer Interested in law school? Lesson "laws" now contains the first lesson in a mini-course designed to provide guidance to persons who wonder whether they might like or do well in law school and/or the practice of law. Because it teaches as well as tests, the mini-course may also be of value to law students and to others interested in legal problems. The format of "laws" will include simulations of the LSAT test, law classes, courtroom advocacy, and client interviewing and counseling. Your comments would be appreciated. Please send them to: kelso of lawyer via a p-note. ---------- note 167 new aids 07/03 01.04 jim pso there may be some incorrect branching within AIDS, please report all strange things to "jim" of "pso" via p-notes. thanks ---------- note 169 vertsegbug 07/03 08.45 fritz ames define segment,vertical,zork=nc1,58,3 .≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ.≤↑ˇ. randu zork,7 makes the condenser barf. If this isn't gonna work (and why doesn't it?) why isn't it in AIDS?? ---------- response 1 07/03 09.01 andersen s This will work eventually.. I just keep forgetting to fix -randu- ---------- response 2 07/03 09.27 fay rtv362 I also had to find out the hard why yesterday that segments do not work currently with randu. ---------- note 170 bad averge 07/03 08.49 spence m BONUS, I walked into room 165 this morning to discover that 29 out of 47 terminals had there slide selector lights on! That is a pretty bad average, most slide selector bulbs have a average life of 25 hours. that adds up quick. The last time anything was mentioned about this problem it was suggested that there might be acommand sent to every inactive terminal about every 10 minutes or so to turn off the light, excellent idea, but we heard nothing from the system and now the suggestion is filed away with the rest of the old notes. Well......one more time how about it????? Kim "Spence"r Hartman ---------- response 1 07/30 09.21 wells cerl one vote for... ( I know this isnt a democracy..) . ...AZOG... ---------- response 2 07/03 09.46 teeters cstate Again - I vote in favor of the idea!!!! Bill Teeters ---------- response 3 07/03 09.52 stan smith chem There is the additional problem that when you want the bulb to come on it is VERY often burned out because of having been on so long when not needed. ---------- response 4 07/03 09.53 meers wright I just checked, and we have 6 working bulbs on 24 terminals with 2 spares... ---------- response 5 07/03 10.15 david hebrew Howzabout the following: When they reload the system, they send everybody a Press-NEXT-to-begin, right? Just send a couple of those nifty 21-bit packets down the line to turn off the slide projector/shutter/etc. If the problem happens mainly when a terminal is turned on, why not send the 21-bit packets out with the "turn-on" sequence. Possible? ---------- response 6 07/03 10.21 errol kka We have the same problem with slide-selector bulbs being on. ---------- response 7 07/03 10.31 dave fuller uimc Well, we have the problem occurring randomly here at SSU/Springfield, too... I would guess that so: of the time I come in after the terminals have been left un-attended, the selectors are on, not to mention the abuse those ]:]:][] "Plato Down" tapes give the selectors... D. Fuller ---------- response 8 07/03 11.29 tenczar s One of the -s- staff has volunteered to work on the problem. ---------- response 9 07/03 12.55 frankel p I thought a member of the -p- staff was going to help... they never let me do anything around here. ---------- response 10 07/03 13.38 fuller uimc *** snide remark deleted *** ---------- response 11 07/03 15.06 wells cerl ***doubly snide remark deleted*** ---------- response 12 07/03 16.27 rader s We do indeed plan to a) turn off the slide projectors with the initial "press next to begin" message, b) turn off the slide projectors as a terminal is signed in or out. c) attempt to turn off the slide projectors while the "plato down" tapes are running. I would appreciate hearing whether "a" and "b" are expected to solve most of your problems--and I am concerned about whether we can afford to run the "plato down" tapes if they are turning all the slide projectors on and off! ---------- response 13 07/03 18.11 lieber m a and b will help. It seems that the tape could send a lamp off command as well as anything else but that alas would require re-doing the tapes. The main problem is with lamps turning on when terminals are inactive but powered up. This most often occurs at night at remote sites (the longer the phone lines the more errors) although I'm sure it happens at CU also. This would be helped by sending the proper word at some interval to inactive stations.≤≤_≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤_ dick ---------- response 14 07/03 19.39 fuller uimc Somehow, in view of how cruddy the tapes work, I wonder if a slidecff would accomplish anything, considering that all I've ever seen is a blank screen, or perhaps a few characters now and then... And the scanners clicking on and off madly once in a while, interspersed with errors... If you hold the button down, you might be able to read something every minute or so... df ---------- response 15 07/03 13.03 curly iu Would it work any better if you just sent the lines of text, and forgot about all the fancy displays? After all, it's the message that I want to see, I dont care a bit about the displays. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 16 07/04 15.22 rader s No, there is no reason for us to think that would work better. ---------- response 17 07/05 10.33 kawell cerl Regarding the down tapes: It amazes me that, connected to millions of dollars of electronic gear, is a cheesey little Norelco cassette player that is used to send the down message. I can't help but believe that a slightly better tape machine could only help the down messages. As am operator I know that even cleaning the heads on that Norelco doesn't help much I mean, couldn't a few bucks be scrounged-up to but a new player? Always willing to spend other's money, Len Kawell ---------- response 18 07/15 21.14 iezek ames No wonder the tapes are so bad.. all I kept getting the last time were blinking red error lights and and obscure message every 2 mins about " plato vice jsfrwfWf≥-adf Wpect PL sdf jsi mins. (this is a record) And yes... they do turn the slide projector on and off... Mark Iezek ---------- note 183 vector 07/03 11.04 walter physio Another note in the -It would be nice if- category. It would be nice if the vector command had a continued from using the ; as in draw or gdraw commands. example: Convert vector xˇ1,yˇ1,xˇ2,yˇ2 vector xˇ2,yˇ2,xˇ3,yˇ3 to vector xˇ1,yˇ1,xˇ2,yˇ2 vector ;xˇ3,yˇ3 Additional extensions of this type could allow for series of vectors performed as in the draw commands using semi- colons. Example: vector xˇ1,yˇ1,xˇ2,yˇ2;yˇ3,yˇ3;xˇ4,yˇ4.... I am sure you get the idea. Well, if other people think it is a reasonable idea, is there any chance for implementation in the near future? David Walter ---------- response 1 07/03 15.10 shirer s 1) You are right, it WOULD be nice... 2) No chance of immediate implementation 3) I will put it on the "it would be nice IF" list Note: far easier suggested than done, since would have to completely rewrite both the condense and execution routines...note that cannot use the draw stuff, because -vector- has an additional argument, the vector arrowhead size, which you perhaps forgot. Thanks for suggestion, though,it was a good one. ---------- response 2 07/03 16.02 walter physio I am glad you approve of the suggestion. No, I did not forget the arrowhead size parameter, although I did forget to include it in the example. My thoughts were that for a continued arrow, the size would only be entered for the first arrowhead and would be assumed constant for those which followed. This addition will (someday) also add consistency from the TUTOR author's viewpoint. Can you give any hints about the other things on your job board? These sort of tid-bits are very much appreciated. ---------- note 186 optics 07/03 13.03 wheeler mflu here's one for "phys phreaks" given: a parabolic mirror with a focal length of 90.9 cm. object distance (from vertex of mirror) is 1.495≠10ˆ8 km. object height is 1.39≠10ˆ6 km. find: image height (can you identify the physical situation described? hint: the object is a disk.) does anyone know a good reference covering the optics of the parabola? wheeler of mflu ---------- response 1 07/03 16.15 walter physio The text "Optics" by Klein has more than you will probably ever want to know. More elementary texts include those by Longhurst or Weidner and Sells. Did you look in any physics text before writing your note (which probably doesn't belong here in the first place)? ---------- response 2 07/03 17.01 wheeler mflu thank you walter of physio yes,I have consulted math texts about the parabola but most (all) physics books I have looked at treat only the spherical mirror case (using those formulas the answer for the above problem looks unrealistic) I probably should have gone to the library on this but I thought I'd let my fingers do the walking thanks again, wheeler of mflu ---------- note 188 save buff 07/13 13.51 s stone iu Where exactly is the authors save buffer? I would like to know if it would be possible to be able to store things from regular lessons into it? It would be very advantageous to utility packages to have this feature implemented. I don't neccesarily mean being able to extract what is in the save buffer, but to be able to store into it. So that he might IS in the editor.. Steve Stone ---------- response 1 07/03 14.30 warner iu Steve, I checked into this. The author save buffer begins at storage location 323 and continues for up to 322 words. The catch is≤≤≤≤≤≤_≤≤≤_ _____ __ that the editor contains built-in precautions against crazy authors trying to jump into systems lessons with odd things stored in their storage. So for any route you might take into the editor, except from another systems lesson such as notes, the entire storage is zeroed. Also any route you take out of the editor, except for the LAB1 key during editing, zeroes the storage. I am sure that the systems people are working on ways to stop up the exception. ---------- response 2 07/03 14.31 midden uimc (right, only it starts at 645...) Also the neato condense error page uses it. ---------- response 3 07/03 14.58 s stone iu ugh! Don't we get ANY freedom to play around? ---------- response 4 07/03 15.16 parrello uimatha I think that filling the save buffer would be more of an extravagance than a freedom, really.... ---------- response 5 07/03 15.49 s stone iu I should think that if one of more users can benefit from a feature, then it should have merit to all. In this case, I am sure that ANYONE writing a code generating routine could benefit immeasurably from such a feature. Since all it is is loading it into storage, why not take out all of the checks that the editor does so that this would be possible. I am sure that other good reasons could be found. Is there any NOT to implement this? Steve Stone ---------- response 6 07/03 16.22 ian conn I agree with steve. If i understand this, that would mean that authors could construct their own personalized ID and even SD if it worked the other way. Seems it would make individual authoring a lot easier. Ian ---------- response 7 07/03 17.14 s stone iu Very true.. There could very well develope in someones lesson scheme a need for a rather personalized display technique which he himself would have to design. If this feature were implemented, alot of pains could be diminished greatly! After talking to Dave Frankle this morning, I realize the problems with this idea, but I should think that there should be some comprimise possible. ---------- note 191 keyjumpout 07/03 14.57 s stone iu WHY IS IT THAT *KEY* DOESN'T WORK FOR STUDENT JUMPOUTS?? THIS IS THE MOST FRUSTRAING THING IN THE WORLD!!!! I THOUGHT *KEY* WAS SUPPOSED TO WORK FOR US!!!! If you want more details, just contact me.. Try doing this: pause keys=1,2 jumpout key="1",lesson1,lesson2 for both authors and students. The author records will work fine, but the student records will always go to the second lesson..!!!!!!"M!"?!"?!"?!")*(_*' UPSETTING. And from what I understand it has been this way for quite some time.. ---------- response 1 07/03 15.14 frankel p odd....works just peachy for me, excpet that I use semi-colons in my jumpouts to avoid condense errors. My test follows: unit unit at 1010 write test pause keys=1.2 jumpout key="1";art;rose stop* And it worked just fine for both my author records and a student record I sent to my lesson. ---------- response 2 07/03 15.20 s stone iu hmmmm... Did you do it in a router? That might have had something to do with it..It worked fine for me when I did this: calc i→key jumpout i="1";lesson1;lesson2 ---------- response 3 07/03 15.34 frankel p I just changed my lesson to a router and it worked just fine...how about a lesson name? ---------- response 4 07/03 15.37 white p If all you want to know is why, here it is: in the execution of the jumpout command, before evaluating the expression in the tag, a one second pause is done if the student is in his own router. Of course, the one second pause changes key to timeup. ---------- response 5 07/03 15.42 s stone iu Hokay.. How I know.... ---------- response 6 07/03 15.45 frankel p Right...right. right. Larry is right. S Stone is right. But alas, I am right too. We are alright! ---------- response 7 07/03 15.48 berger mfl Just as a matter of interest, Parrello documented this "problem" about 6 months ago. ---------- response 8 07/03 15.59 s stone iu I knew I'd seen around somewhere before..That is why I wondered why it hadn't ben fixed! ---------- response 9 07/03 16.01 parrello uimatha datain complaint,about,bug calcs complainer='parrello',priority→low,high end explanation ---------- response 10 07/03 18.36 far rtv362 branch key=lab1,x,1end calc n1→007220501240000000000 n2→022052320171623050000 n3→023270501240522705700 at 105 showa n1 at where+1 showa n2 at where+2 showa n3 iend * ---------- response 11 07/03 22.19 sellers arizona Jesus! ---------- response 12 07/04 13.24 hinton ssu 0252305 031172522 0700301204011116 0701511041611071024 02211160756 02305141405222357 After all ,it is a holiday.... ndh ---------- response 13 07/04 13.50 ian conn thank god for shift term calc! ---------- response 14 07/05 18.30 curly iu term=shift ans shift term= A non-existant key. I cant stand it. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 15 07/07 08.06 fritz ames No, no, curly, SHIFT-TERM is accessed by holding the SHIFT1 key (which in turn is accessed by pressing the SHIFT key while holding down the other SHIFT key) and pressing ANS. Who knows, maybe someday they'll find a use for it... ---------- note 211 circlevote 07/03 16.58 shirer s Recent discussions about -circle- and -gcircle- have led to the following suggestion. Please consider it and reply either here or in p-notes if it affects you in any way. It has been proposed that -circle- (and -circleb-) which now has the form circle R,X,Y[,startarc,endarc] be split into two parts... at X,Y circle R [,startarc,endarc] R is in dots This has the advantage of being easier to remember, being able to put circles at the ends of drawn lines, being able to put circles on graphs via -locate x,y- -circle R-, plus several other not so obvious advantages. It has the disadvantages of using an extra word or two in the code, requiring an automatic lesson conversion, and a small possibility that a poorly-written lesson might not convert correctly... (Continued...please press LAB) ---------- response 1 07/03 17.07 shirer s ...circle vote continued Specifically, the conversion to the -at- -circle- intro- duces a new margin setting, so anyone who depended on a previous margin setting by beginning a new -write- after a -circle- without an accompanying -at- would find the next line beginning under the center of the circle. This is bad programming and problably would not affect you (since you write GOOD programs, right?) This would make possible a later -gcircle- which would draw a circle with a radius scaled to the current x,y scales (and yes, it would draw ellipses if scales are different!) We will NOT implement the above feature without a clearcut approval from the Plato community. If you (plural) reject this idea, -gcircles- may not be possible. If you accept it, it could be done within a month and your lessons would be converted automatically. Comments? ---------- response 2 07/03 17.18 s stone iu Sounds good to me, but I can think of alot of things I'd rather see the systems staff concentrate on than this for a while.. ---------- response 3 07/03 17.45 gilpin peer Do it. ---------- response 4 07/03 18.19 iezek ames One vote for.... Mark Iezek ---------- response 5 07/03 18.39 carter comm Vote for gcircle format. Vote against new circle format, Hope these are technically compatible votes. ---------- response 6 07/03 19.25 blomme s I've always been in favor of positioning via at, with circle command must specifying radius (with possible addition of arc parameters). ---------- response 7 07/03 19.52 bowery rhrc Sounds good to me. ---------- response 8 07/03 20.02 golden s I have long favored this change. ---------- response 9 07/03 21.06 williams ed I also think that this change would be a good deal easier to write and remember. It also would be more consistant with current system trends such as -at- -erase- etc. steve williams ---------- response 10 07/03 21.23 fuller uimc We may finally win the -at- fight yet, Rick... One more strong vote of approval. Dave Fuller ---------- response 11 07/03 21.40 hody med seems logical to me... one vote for ---------- response 12 07/03 22.28 sellers arizona Will there someday be an rcircle as well? Then one could size, rotate, and position whole line drawn pictures containing both circle arcs and straight lines with ease! I vote for the present suggestion as long as it doesn't exclude the possibility of one day having an rcircle. ---------- response 13 07/03 22.59 wells cerl well since I write GOOD programs I vote for it.... ...AZOG... ---------- response 14 07/03 23.05 brant ames I vote yes. It seems like a good improvement. George Brant ---------- response 15 07/04 12.13 cat cu one more "aye". ---------- response 16 07/04 13.30 hinton ssu I have yet to use a circle, or even to want to use a circle, but the suggestion seems very rational and easy to follow. Aye. ndh ---------- response 17 07/04 14.00 ian conn sounds good to me, but what will happen to where, wherex and wherey after the circle is draw; identical to the at? ---------- response 18 07/04 22.41 shirer s No...just as now, wherex, wherey will be set to last point drawn (which for complete circle is point due east of center, or for non-cartophiles, to right of center), The " where" variables reflect current screen position, not margin position. ---------- response 19 07/05 08/19 maggs law do it ---------- response 20 07/06 18.22 michael english 1 for. ---------- response 21 07/06 20.01 sinder ee Well, I must again bring up the topic of help note 400. ( at with an off screen tag.) What is going to happen to a line of code that looks like this? circle 489,-429,172,3,-13 $$ a line of code from one of my lessons A conversion to: at -429,172 circle 489,3,-13 Will not draw the same arc as the original code since wherex and wherey are only 9 bits. (PLEASE do NOT agian tell me that this is a mistake and that I don't really want to do what the original code says!) I really do want to draw an arc with an off screen center. Continued..... ---------- response 22 07/06 20.14 sinder ee _IF_ wherex and wherey can be fixed to allow an off screen center, then I am all for the At- -circle- combination. But please do not remove the capability of arcs with off screen centers. Such a conversion would destroy the operation of any lesson which has circles with off screen centers. (NOTE: It is very easy to create such an arc in the ID option of the editor and never really realize that you have used a circle whose center is off srceen.) So, I must cast a vote against. (Unless wherex and wherey can be fixed.) ---------- response 23 07/06 23.12 shirer s Hmmm...thanks for pointing out something I overlooked. ---------- response 24 07/07 08.10 fritz ames Yo! go to it, Don ---------- response 25 07/07 08.57 jim g reading I like the idea, but have the same problem sinder has! ---------- response 26 07/07 11.12 r gooch matha GOOD programs..... BAD programming..... Wow! I didn't know these things existed under the eyes of plato! ---------- response 27 07/07 14.04 railing iu Yeah, do it, and also do the rcircle to, I could use circles and arcs in rdraws for my graphics. Malkin ---------- response 28 07/08 01.18 shirer s OK.. lets call off the balloting...getting too hard to page thru 27 responses! Will do it as soon as I figure out how to take care of off-screen circle centers! Thanks for your comments. ---------- response 29 07/08 08.53 me smithy mtc I'm for it ...thats if you make pretty *$;$; sure that it will work. WITHOUT TO MANY COMPLICATIONS! rcircle sounds better tho....hint ---------- note 219 X-search 07/03 18.18 iezek ames Would it be possible to allow the X-option to work if one only has the inspect code to a lesson? This would be easier than many separate X-searches. Mark Iezek ---------- response 1 07/03 18.26 fay rtv362 Please see the following OLD GENERAL NOTES: *gnote ¬$302 (4/22/75) *gnote ¬$177 (6/19/75 This does not mean this discussion is closed. Who knows? If people keep bringing up the question and are dissatisfied with the answer, maybe what you suggest will be implemented. ---------- response 2 07/05 06.00 iezek ames After having read the general notes in the previous response, I would like a little clarification. First of all, if "attachment" only occurs when the b and d options are used, why can't the a and c options be made to work with the inspect code only? Also, why is the policy on this the same as it is on printouts? Anything that can be done in an X-search can be done in the editor X-option (although more slowly) and this is available to anyone who can inspect a lesson. As was mentioned earlier, such an option would make use of some "system" lessons (such as catalog) easier and more convienient. Mark Iezek ---------- response 3 07/05 10.09 fay o Hmmmm.... I just did a two terminal test and discovered that the file is not attached w/choice "a", as you said. I suppose one should explore old notes to find out what " the same policy as for prints" REALLY means. ---------- response 4 07/05 17.35 fumento pso Only one file is attached in options (b) and (d) and that is the file which contains your list of lessons to be searched. Lessons are not attached when they are being searched. One of the reasons why the X-option is restricted to those who have the change code is that it produces a sufficient amount of disk overhead on the system. Requiring only the inspect code for a search also opens up the possibility of a great malicious use of the system. I can imagine some "author" making a little fun for himself by searching for some character string through 320 lessons (in his own list) which do not have inspect codes. A few records running like this could easily hamper disc accessing for other users. ---------- response 5 07/05 18.59 iezek ames But, if the inspect code were sufficient for the a and c options only, that would make a maximum of 20 lessons that could be searched at one time. Mark Iezek ---------- response 6 07/07 08.12 fritz ames Still, Mark, the X search takes an AWFUL lot of disk accesses, and they're getting a little tight as it is... ---------- response 7 07/12 06.31 emrath cs491 I often want to look through a single lesson (or maybe two) that I am 'using', but only have inspect privileges. Since the X-option wont let me, I must use the editor. I think the ¬$ of disk accesses excuse is a poor one for two reasons: i) I'm going to do the I/O anyways (from the editor), 2) The X-option can easily keep track (I would think) of how much I/O I'm doing, and slow me down if it is too much. I'd like to see a SLOW X-option that uses the inspect code. This way I could twiddle my thumbs and avoid mistakes rather than have to think and type (I too, am lazy) ! ---------- note 229 to chicago 07/03 21.19 jim texas this is jim of texas.....im in champaign and i would like to know if there is someone around that would be driving to chicago next weekend on July 11 or 12.s if so..leave me a note in jim of texas.... i need a ride very desperately and i will share any of the expenses and/or driving... i would like to go to the north side of the city..but i would like to just be able to get to the CTA in the city... someone please help me in this matter... ---------- note 243 random 07/04 14.49 white p The new "Random execution errors" previously announced are finally in the non-prime time version. Also on this version, segmented variables should work for return values, and -randu n1- should return a zero or one. If you can find anything wrong with these commands, send me a p-note. Thanks. ---------- response 1 07/05 12.08 friedman csa Just what Plato needs: random execution errors!↓ [Sorry, Larry, couldn't resist.] ---------- note 251 more dset 07/05 14.47 alan reading A reserved word containing the name of the dataset currently attached would be a nice finishing touch to the new dataset stuff (which incidently is great). ---------- response 1 07/07 11.18 rader s Will think about it. Thanks for the suggestion. ---------- note 252 syserror 07/05 14.48 whisenhunt siu Of intrest.. Today while running a series of jumpouts, I got caught in a condense queue for an extremely long time... Not that there wasn't enough ECS... there were only a few users on at that time. After waiting for a couple of minutes I went to another terminal and tried to kick myself off... It said one moment please... then it said "systems error- call a systems programmer" After talking to the operator, I returned to find that I had finally got through......Any comments? whise ---------- response 1 07/05 15.01 chabay s We've been testing new versions of the condensor -- it probably was unavailable for a while. ---------- response 2 07/05 15.41 alan reading ....and you were already too deep to be exitted with keypresses, If the routine that kicks records off is not successful within a reasonable amount of time you get the call a sysprog message. ---------- response 3 07/07 15.13 meers wright you were probably using a student record which for some inane reason cannot be stop1'ed off when in the condense queue. ---------- note 253 echo 07/05 14.59 s stone iu I know that this was brought out a long time ago, but I am using the -echo- command in one of my lessons to control branching after an author leaves the lesson and would like to see it stay around OR give an alternate to it. I would like to reopen the discussion on whether or not to delete the echo command completely. Steve Stone ---------- response 1 07/05 15.03 wells cerl one vote for leaving it in........ ...AZOG... ---------- response 2 07/05 15.08 frankel p How about telling us what it is you're doing with it? "controlling branching after an author leaves the lesson" sounds suspicious. ---------- response 3 07/07 14.10 railing iu It might be that he wants to send an author into the lesson, say in inspect mode, after he finishes the lesson as a student. Tho why we would want to do this I have no idea. Writing another version of "library" maybe. malkin ---------- response 4 07/11 11.59 bowery rhrc maybe he wants to do it to speed the demize of the -echo- command. ---------- note 259 aidsbug? 07/05 18.22 kravitz cerl If section -f- is selected from the main -aids- index, then -f- is selected again in the "≤ font, ≤ character≤, index, you are supposed to go to a practice section in using font characters....instead, you end up at the " font, character" index again. It seems you can only access the " practice" by stepping into it from a previous section. R¬≤ˇD ---------- response 1 07/05 23.13 fumento pso Fixed. Thanks for reporting. ---------- note 263 new type 07/05 22.31 jm pdg For all those who are interested, another alphabet has been added to lesson "typeface." This one is a redesign of the present characters, using a ten dot height instead of the present eight. -John Mendenhall ---------- note 265 shift-I 07/06 04.17 frankel p Pressing shift-I from the Author Mode display (or choosing "i" from the "menu" from Author Mode) will get you the "records info" display available in " user". ---------- response 1 07/06 04.46 alan heading It sure will! Nice!! ---------- response 2 07/06 10.27 david hebrew Thanks Dave. ---------- response 3 07/06 16.00 s stone iu Tremendous! ---------- response 4 07/06 16.17 char mathw .... amen ...... ---------- response 5 07/06 22.13 little buddy matha aww, come on, its not _tremendous_ i mean really ... LB ---------- response 6 07/07 08/17 fritz ames Outstanding! Now, if you would just document the shift- letter things somewhere (since I can't find them anywhere).. Also, why isn't the time option) (I on the author page) available on the DATA1 page? Is it just located to fit on the author page and wouldn't look pretty on the DATA1 page or what? ---------- note 268 LOGIC 07/06 14.13 fay o Logic: WANTED.... Lesson(s) dealing with logic, logical thought processes, reasoning, and/or symbolic reasoning (like for people, not machines). Have uncovered catalog reference 260e " logical thought processes" by "Vojacek, j", Anyone who has info, _please_ call Don Tunnell at either 333-0654 or 367-0709 (ac 217). Thanks ---------- response 1 07/06 15.43 fay o If it is more convenient, you can leave me a pnote and I will contact him. ---------- note 269 open index 07/06 14.59 wegner phar Would it be possible to have a lesson where authors could put the name of a lesson and check off a list of areas to which the lesson applies. So that people could have a simple index under perhaps 10 different areas of lessons which authors are willing to put up for public viewing. I personally dont have any special objections about people looking over my lessons. As a matter of fact i would find it helpful if they did. The feedback is most helpful. Comments, votes of interest, suggestions. Please. WEG ---------- response 1 07/06 15.06 frankel p The published lesson catalog discussed in previous notes will have capabilities including something like what you describe... lessons will be organized by, among other things, subject areas. ---------- response 2 07/06 15.19 wegner phar When will this be avaible and will it be in the form of a lesson. Also will the author be able to insert his lesson into the index lesson directly (that would eliminate a lot of hassel for both author and sys, not to mention better updating of the index) What are the numbers of the previous notes which further describe the index. WEG ---------- response 3 07/06 15.36 frankel p This should be available in a month or two...it will be in the form of a lesson... I'm afriad I don't recall the numbers of the previous notes. ---------- response 4 07/06 16.42 bowery rhrc A property of 'published lessons' which might make a major point in this suggestion awkward is the fact that once published a lesson may not be modified. The idea behind his suggestion is to recieve feedback about the lesson. In order to allow a complete loop one would have to have a backup of every lesson one publishes which one would like to alter according to this feedback. ---------- response 5 07/07 07.57 maggs law I have been a party to a number of discussions of published lessons. The idea has always been that they would be lessons which had been tried and tested with students, so that they would be unlikely to need immediate modification. Even so it was assumed that the author would keep a backup for making gradual improvements, and once a year or so come out with a " new edition." Published lessons may not satisfy what is wanted here-- the desire to get quick feedback on a newly finished but untested lesson which is sure to need changes. ---------- response 6 07/07 08.04 avner s Yes, this request is for something other than what published lessons were intended for. The most effective approach used in the past seems to be contacting authors with similar interests (via HELP notes if you can't find anyone listed in the various publications and index files). AIDS has the most recent details on such references. The helpful inputs tend to be from those who have struggled with similar problems. Al Avner ---------- response 7 07/07 10.30 cat cu perhaps " sample" and " catalog" should be retained to enable people to keep up to date on never material and the " published" (ie, thoroughly tested) lessons could be in a separate lesson called "library" (or some such...) i see a need for both types of listings. charlene ---------- response 8 07/07 15.47 tebby pso "sample" will not be retained after the "catalog of pub- lished lessons" becomes available. However, "catalog" will be retained as it contains all lessons in process as well as finished. We are in the process of putting the regular "catalog" into the student mode and you will be able to search it for sub- juct area and author which will be much more convenient for the users. By the way, an author who wishes to put his lesson into the "catalog of published lessons" will be asked to input the information on-line himself and one will be able to look at the lesson in question immediately. Tebby Lyman ---------- note 276 dset blues 07/06 16.39 bruce research It seems that whenever one attaches a dataset through the dataset command, and not using a reserve command, the dataset itself is unable to be edited from the author mode page for as long as the dataset is attached. Likewise, if someone is editing a dataset, and you try to attach it through the dataset command, the attach fails, zreturn = 2, which indicates disk error. Is this bug? Kevin ---------- response 1 07/06 17.01 galcher uimc And in some other simple tests, it seems that you can attach a dataset (codeword dependent of course) from any number of lessons running concurrently and be successful in these attempts but once you try to go into the dataset itself from the author mode page, it will not let you and gives you two displays, the first of which telling you that your dataset is being currently edited at site 31, station 31 (this flashes by your eyes very quickly) and then you are brought to a page which says that some or all of the blocks in the dataset are being reserved and you will not be allowed to enter the dataset except under -INSPECT ONLY- privledges. And, no, I do not have any -reserve- commands in my lessons, and yes, I tried this with my own dataset workspace so I know that no one else is trying to play tricks on me. Yessir, a game the whole family can play... ---------- response 2 07/07 11.35 rader s a) There is only way to attach a dataset, and that is through the -dataset- command. I don't understand your reference to attaching a dataset through a -reserve- command. b) Yes, datasets are currently marked as "attached" with a code that the editor interprets as site 31 station 31, to provide a system interlock on accessing the file-- if we want to move it, for example. It also interlocks changing of codewords--you can't change them while the file is in use. The message that says that some blocks are reserved may or may not be accurate--it means that the editor is not going to permit you " change" access because somebody is using the file, and might indeed want to reserve some blocks. ---------- response 3 07/07 14.09 bruce research The point that I was trying to make in my original note is that merely by attaching the dataset.. dataset newdset the editor informs the user upon entering his dataset from the author mode page that he has 'reserved' it, and cannot edit it. Likewise, if I am editing my dataset, and try to attach it thusly dataset newdset show zreturn zreturn will be shown =2, which is listed as a disk error. It would seem that by merely attaching a dataset I have not reserved it, and should not be locked out from editing. Perhaps I am wrong.. Kevin ---------- response 4 07/07 17.40 rader s You are wrong. "Reserving" is a different operation from attaching; the editor is set up to permit single editor operation--datasets are set up to permit multiple editor operation. The two do not mix. As I said before, the message may be inaccurate--perhaps we can improve the message. ---------- note 279 No Abort 07/06 17.35 bowery rhrc Could there be some way to do a full screen erase and not abort the output? Generally a full screen erase does and should abort output but in high speed animation the only way to keep it from being jerky is to introduce an -ext- or -slide- which slows the effect down. ---------- response 1 07/07 16.59 john r reading How about a -delay-? ---------- response 2 07/07 18.13 bowery rhrc A delay may also be aborted. Its not even as effective as the -ext- I mentioned. Besides: A delay just generates more output. That is what I am trying to minimize. ---------- note 280 functions 07/06 18.10 stone iulatin Does anyone remember that note a while back with about 20 responses concerning functions that they would like to see added to TUTOR? If you can remember anything concerning this note, please do tell me. Thanks, Steve Stone ---------- response 1 07/06 21.23 galcher uimatha There is a very helpful lesson in which you might find this information. Go to the author mode page and type "notes".When you get that lesson's main index, press "f". Then choose a time period in which you think the note may have been written. There are only a finite number of locations where this note could've occurred, so just look for some notes which have a high number of responses. I'm sure you will find it with no difficulty. ---------- response 2 07/07 04.41 iezek ames The idea of guessing time periods and searching back through several thousand old general notes with obscure titles is not my idea of a "very helpful lesson" Hopefully the new version of notes that is coming(?) will improve on this. By the way.. the note you seek is part 3, note 14 Mark Iezek ---------- note 282 no echo 07/06 18.52 frankel p -echo- command users... See "New System Features" notes. ---------- note 286 size 1¬=0 07/06 21.312 warner iu The following characters, v,o,N and V, differ in size 1 from their versions in size 0. To test this, write these chars in size 1 and erase them in size 0.You will see that there are several dots left, clustered around the diagonal lines in the characters. The main purpose of changing these chars to show slanted lines is so that their sized counterparts could be simpler. From this test it appears that the sized counterparts to the simple letters are not only simpler, but different. This could be critical in drawings where captions are written in size 1 for emphasis. ---------- response 1 07/06 22.05 midden uimc A while ago it was mentioned that these characters were indeed different. This is so they look ok in size ¬= 1. Rick, explain please... The words do not come easy in this matter. Marshall Midden. ---------- response 2 07/06 22.54 blomme s We worked on revising the size 1 line drawn characters for probably a week in order to make as many as possible identical to the wired in (size 0) characters (and to make it so ALL the wired in characters could be sized). The " size chars" editor let us compare the line drawn chars with the wired- in ones and also see the newly designed chars in various sizes. In order for some chars to look at all decent in larger sizes one must give up on following every crook in the character so size 1 matches size 0. Some of the problem also traces to imperfections in the hardware algorithm for drawing lines! No claim is made to "bestness" of the current line drawings--but an attempt was made to match as best as possible size 1 with size 0 (with thought given also to appearance in larger sizes). ---------- note 291 file error 07/06 23.37 little buddy matha i may have missed this, but . . . what does a 'file error' on a datain signify? LB ---------- response 1 07/07 11.38 rader s One possibility is that you haven't done a -dataset- command. ---------- note 292 nice echo 07/07 01.14 bowery rhrc We used to be able to do fairly accurate timings of output via the -echo- command. Could there be an -echo- implimented with _no tag_ which would allow the echoing of some innocuos key that doesn't allow users to control branching after exit form a lesson? Timings of output via -catchup- don't work because there is no feedback. In case this point is not clear, it is a fact that -catchup-s computes a 'good' estimate of the amount of pending output and stops processing for that long. This results in a measurement that is very poor relative to the -echo- type of absolute feedback. ---------- response 1 07/07 02.21 frankel p Sounds reasonable...will look into it. ---------- note 295 Dvorak 07/07 05.43 gustafson ed Since plato is becoming multinational, (Been to Japan lately Don?) the keyset tops and their internal meanings are growing numerous. It would seem to be a minor chore to include the Dvorak keyset as a "termable" option. This would be benificial since people learn typing faster on a Dvorak keyset. Tsfo; kofptw Cat Uf;kay;sl ---------- response 1 07/07 05.47 bowry rhrc Well this would require umm N words of central memory where N is the number of pressable keys. CM is kinda scarce these days from what I hear. But I too think that if the space could be made available that such a 'flag' like the user or talk flags could change which table one would reference in key input. ---------- response 2 07/07 08.03 maggs law A few years ago I saw a report on an extensive taxpayer-funded study which showed that Dvorak users typed no faster than non-Dvorak users. DOD took some new employees who couldn't type at all and taught half of them regular typing and half Dvorak. After a year or so it tested them and found no difference in speed. The report didn't say, what the Dvorak typists put down on their resmues for typing speed when they went to look for their next job. ---------- response 3 07/07 08.13 avner s The basic claim is for faster learning rather than faster typing speed. One might also consider that, since this learning speed is partly due to use of "favored" fingers for the most frequently used letters, the standard configuration is beneficial in giving needed exercise to otherwise underutilized digits. ---------- response 4 07/07 09.04 krauklis rtv362 I certainly hope that the use of Dvorak (or whatever) remains PURELY optional. I learned to touch type about ten years ago, and do very nicely on a good old _standard_ keyset, thank you. ---------- response 5 07/07 10.23 gustafson ed Thank you al. Yes, by all means, OPTIONAL. As optional as the keysets for Russian, or Hindi. Use force font if you must, or load a micro. Oh, let them eat cake, I dont care" Try picking up the discussion in lesson dasve3. (Its not mine but the author gave me permission to mention it, personally, and I know for a fact he works here, whoever it may concern) You may also look at lesson dvorak. (ditto¬W) (snicker) Physical culture faddists are asked to do 100 "pinky ups" before breakfast. fr tsfo ls;d mfogld Uffvw, js;d lamd ;japp pg.d ---------- response 6 07/07 12.50 auld mflu Right now I can barely touch type..... if dvorak is added I for one would want it to be optional... otherwise I'd have to learn to type again. warren ---------- response 7 07/07 13.09 hinton ssu Whom≤ _≤_ever it may concern... ndh ---------- response 8 07/07 13.22 fuller uimc Why not make the conversion at the keyset? ---------- response 9 07/07 14.16 bruce iehl mtc Great suggestion fuller, as I now have controlling stock in the keyboard manufacturing co. Git yer standard keyboards. Right here folks, at post- inflationary prices.... ---------- response 10 07/08 09.48 white uimatha Bruce Iehl, Are you the one responsible for the new-new, poorly made, keysets? Larry White ---------- response 11 07/09 10.14 gustafson ed Nobody would take responsibility for those. They stink! ---------- note 305 rtresignon 07/07 08.34 fritz ames Thank you, Ruth, for -route resignon-!! When the student STOP1's out of the lesson, and presses NEXT (or whatever) to return to the router, is the router's IEU excecuted? It is a 'still-signed- on' return, but you said it's just like the student had signed off. Also, I take it the command only works with student records and/or if a router is attached? ---------- response 1 07/07 10.41 friedman csa After the student presses stop1, when is the -route finish- I have a similar questin:↓ After the student presses stop1, when is the -route finish- unit executed? Is it executed _before_ the student sees the page giving him the resignon option? I.e., if he chooses to re-sign-on, and enters the router at the -route resignon- unit, has the -route finish- unit already been executed? ---------- response 2 07/07 10.37 friedman csa Also, what about a "multiple"? Will he still have the student and router variables he had when he pressed stop1, or will the record be the same as if a new copy of the same multiple had been read from the disk? ---------- response 3 07/07 11.41 chabay s It is EXACTLY as if the student had signed all the way off the system, executing the route finish unit, etc.; then signed back on the system, going through the router ieu... The number of sessions on is incremented, multiple records have their variables cleared, student records have been returned to disk. Just think of it as a way of saving the student the trouble of typing his name, course, and password again. (In answer to the other question -- the -route- command works only in a router.) ---------- response 4 07/07 12.02 friedman csa I just realized I had misunderstood a significant detail: I thought the -route resignon- specified a unit in the router to enter if the student elected to stay on. It seems that NO unit is specified; the student reenters at the beginning of the router, or not at all. Hmmmmmmm.... ---------- response 5 07/07 12.26 michael english This would seem to be an argument for adding a new return value to *backout* -- or via some other way -- so that a router can tell if a student is re-entering via the resignon feature or not. This would allow a router to branch around its"Welcome to this session" routine. Having such a flag seems essential if people are going to use the resignon feature meaningfully. ---------- response 6 07/07 13.46 chabay s How about just keeping your own flag (like last day/time student was on)? ---------- note 306 unit dupl 07/07 08.50 david hebrew Would it be much effort to indicate when a unit name is a duplicate? It confused one of our students learning TUTOR (and one fairly experienced author) who had no idea of why it underlined everything but the last character in the unit name. (Since they weren't too long...) Yes, I know about the -HELP- from the condense error page, but it is experimental, and not many beginning authors know about it. ---------- response 1 07/07 10.43 celia pso In the new condense error HELP, which should be available within a month, we intend to say something like duplicate unit name, referenced in unit (name of unit) Will this help? ---------- note 309 resignon? 07/07 09.31 michael english What are the effects of -route resignon- on the following: route finish $$ done before resignon page? initial lesson $$ done if last student reenters? initial common $$ router still in ECS? reserve common $$ when is common released? in stain $$ return value of student on page? abort record $$ no effect, I assume? *usersin* $$ when subtracted from router total? Can the router be condensed out from under the student while on the resignon page? If the student is the last person to leave the router, does sitting on the resignon page hold up updating the datafile? Does the system press STOP1 after a student has sat an inordinate amount of time on that page? ---------- response 1 07/07 10.24 friedman csa Very good questions. Please see also note ¬$306. ---------- response 2 07/07 11.00 david hebrew Tests show that a student is NOT "in" the router when he is on the system page provided by route resignon. ---------- response 3 07/07 11.46 chabay s Right -- the student isn't really anywhere when he is on the resignon page -- he has effectively been signed off the system (if he does nothing for 3 minutes he will be thrown to "Press NEXT to begin".) ---------- note 339 counsellin 07/07 17.49 tebby pso There have been several inquiries recently about a project on "Career Counselling for Adults" which was supposed to have been implemented on PLATO. It is not being done on PLATO after all, but on the DEC-10 system at the U of I. For information, please contact Dr. Helen Farmer, Dept. of Educational Psychology, 188 Educ. Bldg., U. of Ill., Urbana, Ill. 61801 (217-333-2550). ---------- note 341 resignon? 07/07 19.14 tracht ced Is pressing 'shift-stop' from a router supposed to take you to a press 'data or shift-stop' page? Because if it does I feel that the format should be altered to be consistent with the author page and take one to the 'press next to begin' page? (I am asking because I have been using the 'rnr' 'mednet' router which takes one to the press 'data or shit-stop' page or the program's title page depending on your postition in the router.) ---------- response 1 07/07 20.09 berger mfl route resignon takes one to the "DATA or STOP1" choice page only from a routed lesson, according to the write- up. Tests confirm this. It takes one to "press next to begin" from the router. ---------- response 2 07/08 10.09 warner iu (the "press data or WHAT-stop page"??) ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ↓Tsk, ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ↓↓¬↑ˆ¬↑ˆ tsk, ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ↓↓¬↑ˆ¬↑ˆ tsk! ---------- note 347 dest edit 07/08 12.11 alan reading Is a seperate editor for datasets in the works that will reserve the block one is currently editting instead of locking up the whole dataset? ---------- response 1 07/08 13.07 frankel p We are planning ways to allow you to use the normal TUTOR editor to edit datasets -- it will reserve individual blocks, rather than the whole file, when we implement it, probably. ---------- response 2 07/08 13.22 fumento pso You can also use lesson -datasets- for editing datasets. ---------- note 348 exec err 07/08 12.28 s stone iu I don't know whether or not this is feasible.. It probably isn't, but in the event of an execution error, would it be possible to branch the author to approximatly the guilty line of code from the exectution error page? ---------- response 1 07/08 13.58 warner iu Have you tried pushing HELP on the exec-error page recently? It branches you through aids, and in the event that the editor knows about where the exec error is, pressing NEXT1 returns you to the vicinity of the error. This minor programming miracle is being brought to you by Darlene Chirolas (darlene of pso). ---------- response 2 07/08 14.11 s stone iu Everytime I've tried, I get the block directory. ---------- response 3 07/08 15.24 darlene pso Thanks for the credit on the execution error helps, but the thanks go to ceila (davis) and jim (ghesquiere) of pso. ---------- response 4 07/09 15.56 sellers arizona I thought this was just done on condense errors and not execution errors. ---------- note 349 help notes 07/08 12.52 railing iu I just got a warning that HELP NOTES are almost full. Looks like it is about time to change them again. The always HELPful: Malkin ---------- response 1 07/08 13.43 chabay s OK, thanks. ---------- notes 353 plato off 07/08 13.49 frankel p PLATO will be off Sunday, July 13, from 7 to 11 AM for computer work. ---------- response 1 07/08 13.52 railing iu How long, from what times, etc. We would like to know, you know. Malkin ---------- response 2 07/08 14.20 frankel p Sorry... ---------- response 3 07/08 14.39 chabay s From 7 to 11 AM sounds pretty informative to me..... ---------- response 4 07/08 15.11 baillie batch The original note was edited after the first response was written. (I thought you couldn't do that sort of thing...???) ---------- response 5 07/08 15.26 frankel p Well, ya know.... ---------- response 6 07/09 15.59 sellers arizona If the first note WAS edited after a response I dont think it should have been. This would be a misleading and unethical practice. ---------- response 7 07/09 19.59 clarkson iu yea...it does make railing look rather dim. ---------- response 8 07/13 00.45 ian conn speaking of dim, i couldn't tell if the light was hitting me funny or what!!! ---------- note 359 rotate 07/08 14.55 errol kka Why is sized writing that is rotated much more difficult to read? The characters seem to be drawn differently. It's not just a case of the usual sized writing put on a slant. ---------- response 1 07/08 17.29 obrien uicc Chalk that one up to the method the terminal uses to figure out which dots have to be turned on to draw lines. Since the dots in the panel are straight-up-and-down-and-sideways, if you want to draw lines at funny angels then a funny zig-zag pattern of dots has to be drawn to approximate a line in that direction. ---------- response 2 07/08 17.33 warner iu The characters aren't actually drawn differently. It's just that the PLATO screen has its dots in a square array. That means that a line that appears (magnified ) in horizontal form as this ↓ oooooooooooooo↓↓ might look like this when rotated 30¬0: ↓ oo↑ˆoo↑ˆoo↑ˆoo↑ˆoo↑ˆoo↓↓↓↓ which just naturally looks sloppier than the "straight" line. You probably notice this effect in a small way with small circles. Because characters are smaller, they tend to look even sloppier. Also remember that the rotated values for the lines must be rounded off to integers before PLATO will accept them! ---------- note 363 SS 1.5 07/08 15.53 me smithy mtc Question for the systems people. Why is it that SS doesn't except " size 1.5 " ? It will however except 2,3,4 ect...... was this feature overlooked? This was noted while going into the SS from the author page. <≤^<≤^*≤*≤^^*≤^^↑ˇ≤¬≤^>^< the BUGGER ---------- response 1 07/08 16.39 midden uimc Yes, at this time service only accepts integers. Why? At the time it was written size only took integers. Will this be fixed? No. Why not? Because service is now considered obsolete. Huh? I will be rewriting SS, SD ID later...sometime... Marshall Midden ---------- response 2 07/09 10.10 gustafson ed Oh, Yippy! I know you will do a good job, Marshal. Uh, now, lets see, hmmmm. How bout touch panel deletion of single words, with remaining words "rotated up" into nice even margins, on both sides. And selective erasing commands. And, oh well, theres no sense in going on and on. Besides, "the system" thought of it first anyway, right? No sense "spilling the beans" when the copyright thing isnt too awfully clear yet. Were behind you 1000:. Good luck! Guuk ---------- note 365 name chng 07/08 16.46 steve cornell If anyone is using my one-block common editor which was in lesson "cur", it is now resident in lesson "action". The editor will soon become available replete with documentation in "library". Steve Lionel ---------- response 1 07/08 16.51 hinton ssu Can you get to the common editor through "action" ? I wanted to look at it, but all I see there is the LOA game, and the lesson is not open for inspection. ndh ---------- response 2 07/08 17.19 steve cornell There is a copy in lesson "lithp", no inspect code. The first line of the block (commedit) tells where the g-note with the instructions are. Steve Lionel ---------- note 370 talk off 07/08 19.18 bonnie matha When's the last time you tried to term talk a new author who didn't know his talk option was initialized "off"? When's the last time you temporarily turned off your talk option, then forgot to turn it on until someone sent you a p-note about it several days later? (rhetorical questions. Please don't give dates and times in your responses.) Would it be possible to show the status of an author's talk options when he signs in? (along with the Last Time Signed In information at the bottom of the author mode page?) Or i there another solution to this? Thank you. ---------- response 1 07/08 20.57 williams ed As far as the term -talk— for the nEW author, it might be safe to assume that he did not know about them, and therfore would not know what to do in the event of a paging. I, however, agree with your idea on displaying the status of the talk options on initial entry to the system. steve williams ---------- response 2 07/08 21.39 char mathw ........ ditto ... char ---------- response 3 07/09 03.35 mg smith mtc it sounds great: at least show the status of your options the next sign—on after a sign—on which you changed them. ---------- response 4 07/09 09.34 cat cu sounds good....like the "NOTES" tag when a new pnote has been sent to you. --------------response 5 07/09 09.50 wells cerl I agree..... ---------- response 6 07/09 10.26 bc seager mtc a SHIFT I, and then —back—, is not all that difficult, from the author mode page... plus gives you the info on your records! ---------- response 7 07/09 13.04 auld mflu In addition to displaying the status of the option when an author signs on how about setting initally setting a new authors talks options on? warren ---------- response 8 07/09 13.15 fay rtv362 I think it would suffice to have a feature for new user records similar to that for new lesson files. That is, until the new user goes "I" (or LAB from "user") he/she will be taken right past the author mode page to his/her record data (-talk-, -ext-, etc). This would insure initialization, or at least awareness, especially for new authors. After that point, the author is on his/her own to be aware of the status or these options. Personally, i don't like the idea of having to wait the extra half second or so for all this proposed new stuff to plot on the author mode page. ---------- response 9 07/09 13.35 berger mflu Warren, surely you remember the discussions about the default talk options on. New authors probably wouldn't be capable of answering a talk. Experienced authors know enough to check it on a brand new set of records. ---------- response 10 07/09 17.48 gilpin peer and please DONT force new authors through the talk options stuff...like passwords and security codes, these are both confusing and peripheral, and people handling new authors should arrange (as by setting passwords and filling out data pages ahead of time) to postpone such things until the new author has progressed to the point where a) he is securely oriented to basic, important stuff (like how the editor works), and b) he has some need for peripheral things (as when, for example, he needs to know about securi- ty codes because he is to the point of creating code he feels is worth protecting). ---------- response 11 07/10 09.14 p cohen med ↓ As for an experienced author knowing enough to↓initialize a new set of records, it just ain't so! I think that, since the average author rarely thinks about↓such stuff as talk options, he is more than likely to for- get about it. (Happened to me! Someone had to tell me↓they couldn't page me.) ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ--paul ---------- response 12 07/11 18.49 morgan uicc I don't think it is a major problem. After all if he is a new author he is probably better off not having you confuse him. Also there is a tendency for new authors like myself who learn all the short cuts and not hard core programming. That is the more expierienced author shows too much so he doesn't learn it from plato. Also if the guy can't figure it out he is probably better off exploring plato on his own. I however think a change such as this would produce a bunch of neurotic authors with little to do but turn off their talk option..... ---------- note 379 helpop? 07/09 10.37 bc seager mtc have just discovered the fact that -helpop-, when requested by the student, does not record in the data file as a satisfied help, found! sort of makes data analysis useless, unless it can be assumed that all of the "u-no" entries in the data file indicate where -help- was pressed, and student did in fact receive a help-on-page. understand this has been mentioned before, but i seem to have missed it. any time frame for a fix? and if not, any suggestions on a temporary fix? -helpop- feature is just great, but would like to be able to collect meaningful data. thanks in advance ---------- note 382 weather 07/09 13.30 sanders ed Does anyone know if there are any lessons on PLATO that deal with the topic of weather forcasting? If there are such lessons what are their names? You can leave me a pnote under sanders of ed. Thanks. ---------- response 1 07/09 16.34 tebby pso Answered in pnote. ---------- note 384 datafile 07/09 13.49 petak ed Problem in printing datafiles... All numbers greater than 9,999.99 do not print properly. The number printed is different than the number in the datafile (at least with the output command) and is prefaced by a *. Classically, this would indicate some error in format. I have a great deal of printed data now that does not mean anything. Is this just a problem for me or is it a recognized difficulty? ---------- response 1 07/10 14.36 rader s Everybody has that problem. No immediate solution, as there is no one to work on it. Eventually we will present you with a rational scheme for getting your output formatted. ---------- note 385 frmtimluck 07/09 15.35 mg smith mtc HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HEAR YE! I have just received communication from former author "tim luck/mtc" who is now at Florida State University in ¬≤Tallahassee,¬≤ Florida ¬≤(home ¬≤of ¬≤the ¬≤"other" ¬≤plato) ¬≤further pursuing his graduate school education. He has asked me to leave his address in General Notes, so that all the ¬≤other ¬≤talko-nuts ¬≤with ¬≤whom ¬≤he ¬≤has ¬≤shared ¬≤many ¬≤hours ¬≤of conversation may continue their never-ending dialogue. Tim Luck 434 West Jefferson Collegewood Apts. ¬$307 Tallahassee, Florida (no zip given) He ¬≤also ¬≤spoke ¬≤of ¬≤the ¬≤plato system they have. To avoid any slander on my part. all I can say is that he has stated that most of the lessons seem to be "borrowed". your—news—relaying—sCHMUCK! ---------- response 1 07/09 18.08 steve summers ufdent Just wanted to comment on the remark about the borrowed lessons. As i understand it the purpose of PLATO is not only provide CAT but to make the material available to all schools thus providing a network; thus by this sharing of lessons eliminate the duplication of efforts in the same areas and thus developing a curriculum sooner by the pooling of resourses of the various schools. Also allowing the expertise that might be availible at another school be availible to others via the pLATO system. I would think that with the tight budgets the education has currently that we would all be willing to share inorder to provide the best possible educational system. sincerly yours stephen summers ---------- response 2 07/09 21.13 hinton ssu I don't think that is what was meant by the original note: the question of "borrowing"seems to be a vexed one in computer work, from what I have been hearing. Making materials available to the general public is one thing: text book writers do that, and they get paid for it, too, and the book belongs to them, and they are paid when material from it is used. One would expect the same to be eventually true in cAT! ---------- response 3 07/09 21.27 parrello uimatha Actually, I think his use of "borrowed" referred to the rather, um, unorthodox ways in which some of us obtained our lesson spaces... --------- response 4 07/09 23.06 mg smith mtc the actual meaning was that the "borrowed" lessons may have been without individual author's consent. a "setting–the-meaning-straight-sCHMUCK!" ---------- response 5 07/11 16.40 hinton ssu I was trying to let your meaning emerge there.... a-helpful-of-intent-but-not-so-clear-as-SCHMUCK!-ndh ---------- note 386 pack 07/09 15.53 s stone iu Would it be possible in the future to extend the -pack- command to use a variable delimeter? Also, as was mentioned previously, it would be very nice to be able to have something like: pack n50¬,¬0a,name¬1, you are doing well!¬, $$or something similar... Steve Stone ---------- response 1 07/09 23.14 rader s Well, the summer has become very short; there are a lot of things to be done along these lines, but I don't see them getting done until at least the fall. ---------- note 389 half bit 07/09 16.28 keith s matha What is the current status of development of the half bit? Will the implementation be hardware or software? ---------- response 1 07/09 16.54 warner iu The half bit is currently in limbo, owing to the unusability of half bit buckets. (the half bits kept falling out...) ---------- response 2 07/09 17.00 berger mflu Implementation of the half bit won't occur for some time because of the difficulty involved: I hear that it's a real byte! ---------- response 3 07/09 17.01 kaufman mfl inside word has it that the half bit was abandoned because if it were implemented, users would demand a half byte also, and once you give someone a half byte, the next thing you know they want the whole word... ---------- response 4 07/09 17.01 berger cerlcc And that's the last word on that, Keith! ---------- response 5 07/09 17.58 bowery rhrc answered via pnote... ---------- response 6 07/10 09.18 john r reading There used to be a bit-split function in -library-. It was -bitsplt- and could be used to double the informa- tion storage capacity of a word. One could refer to the -bitsplt(x)-, and since the function was recursive, one could quadruple the storage capacity of a particular bit by referring to the -bitsplt(bitsplt(x))-. The only problem with the function was that there were no right- and left-handed versions of it, and one had to address both halves of the bit with the same function. This led to ambiguous storage and retrieval results, and the function was eventually removed from -library-. (For further information contact j__ of pso.) ---------- response 7 07/10 11.17 jmk pso Your basic bit is a tough little devil and the CDC hardware tended to wear excessively when the bitsplitter was in service. The newer model Shannon-Weaver diamond toothed logic unit provides harder hardware, but its design also makes the software harder. Hot bits split somewhat easier and the Ashby-Wiener roaster has been used with some success to provide a soft bit which can then then be split with the usual soft hardware or with hard software, in the event you happen to have one of the above mentioned SWDT logic units. Cooked bits have a severely reduced vitamin content however, and are suspected to cause cancer in rats. ---------- response 8 07/10 15.51 parrello uimatha They also have a disastrous effect on the ozone layer. ---------- response 9 07/10 19.18 steve cornell I was wondering if any hardware had been built with the new Signetics 25120 Write Only Memory. I noticed from the spec sheet that it served admirably as a bit bucket, a first-in-never-out queue (great for the condensor), and other such useful stuff. Maybe if they make it in a dual version (a la Signetics 556), half could be used for a half bit bucket. Comments? ---------- response 10 07/10 20.29 john r reading I suspect that if we substitute "w" for "b" throughout this discussion, everything will be clearer. ---------- response 11 07/11 00.49 davidson css Actually, half bits can only be used for doing arithmetic in base one. SD ---------- note 395 -remove- 07/09 17.17 stan smith chem Lessons that have been in use for several years and have been used for thousands of hours each by as many as 4≠10ˆ3 users this year alone without error do not run today because of fatal errors with the -remove- command. ---------- response 1 07/10 01.15 tenczar s Is anyone else having trouble with the -remove- command? It might help us to find the problem. ---------- response 2 07/10 08.51 silver ve No problems noted. What specifically is happening, Stan? ---------- note 396 next1 07/09 17.22 speel csa When one hits SHIFT-NEXT from the Author's Mode page, one is supposed to get to the last block one changed. But this feature does not seem to work if you have been editing the lesson of someone else, even if you have the security code that allows you to change. Is there any special reason for this? Speelpenning ---------- response 1 07/09 17.30 frankel p No special reason; we just think its important that you know who last changed the lesson. ---------- response 2 07/10 08.42 fay o NEXT1 _does_ work in the case where last author=someone else. NOT from the author mode page, however, but from the page which says "last changed by so and so". ---------- note 398 editcom 07/09 17.34 bereiter matha Would it be possible to allow the copy key to function in the common editor in the inspect/change option. If, for example, you wanted to change the last few bits, it would be convenient to press COPY and then just erase the last few digits. This should also be implemented in the dataset editor. ---------- response 1 07/09 20.17 tracht ced Second that idea.... ---------- response 2 07/10 09.50 white p It will be implemented as soon as I complete some other stuff I am working on. ---------- note 404 help! 07/09 20.36 lewandowski css Does anyone know the name of the lesson written by M. Saltarelli that contains the 'private language' of the Italains. I've got a freind who is interested so I checked in catalog but it only gives a discription. be reached. thanx. ↑ˆ ---------- response 1 07/09 20.41 lewandowski css In my note a line was left out for some reason. It said that unfortuately Prof. Saltarelli is in Italy and cannot be reached. thanx again. ---------- note 408 overwrite 07/09 22.07 hinton ssu Is it just the way it seems, or is there quite a lot of overwriting going on these days? I have noticed it in Notes, in the editor, and various other places round and about....just wondering if some bug has come along, or if it is the result of working after prime time, or just an unsubstantiated feeling ? (Tonight it happened on the signin page, at the next terminal). ---------- response 1 07/09 22.58 fritz ames If you mean writing coming up in all kinds of strange locations, then it's been happening to me too. -where- seems to be getting messed up a lot lately. ---------- response 2 07/10 00.02 hinton ssu Not only in strange places, but one "page" appearing on top of the page that's already displayed, when I press NEXT, and writing over the page I was trying to leave..... But also strange -where-s, as you point out ndh ---------- response 3 07/10 08.00 fay rtv362 I have had the same problem of late. Incidentally, when I have noticed it I have been working at CERL, not a distant remote location. Are the terminals themselves going bananas, or is software getting softer? ---------- response 4 07/10 08.53 silver ve Maybe the terminals are just hotter and/or moister? Overwrites seems to correlate with times when our. site is fairly busy, and fairly hot. ---------- response 5 07/10 09.26 errol kka We have been having overwrites, too, at kennedy-king. It has not necessarily occurred when plato usage was high; temperature of the room has not been a factor either. ---------- response 6 07/10 09.30 deiss phar I have also noticed this on different terminals at different times. I don't think its hardware unless its in the comm. network which is unlikely. ---------- response 7 07/10 09.55 kaufman uimc I thought it was line error problems with specific terminals since it seems to happen with only selected terminals at our site. ---------- response 8 07/10 10.15 hinton ssu I've had over-writing during the say, when it gets fairly warm in here, and at night, when the room feels like an icebox, and had it on each of our four terminals.... ndh ---------- response 9 07/10 10.31 fay rtv362 I have not noticed that the problem is confined to certain terminals, either. ---------- response 10 07/10 15.57 parrello uimatha It's been happening to me off and on for a little over a year now, at CERL, FLB, the med sites here at Urbana, and at all times of day regardless of usage. I'll just be going along minding my own business and a full screen erase just kinda fails to occur... ---------- response 11 07/11 15.46 hinton ssu I wish someone from Systems would say whether this is something that could be dealt with, or not..(sigh).. ---------- response 12 07/14 17.16 kaplan mfl I too would like to hear why this has been occurring. ---------- note 413 slide sel 07/10 00.22 rader s Concerning the slide selectors: We are now turning off all slide selectors when PLATO begins execution--I would like to hear if this has helped the problem of slide selectors being left on. ---------- response 1 07/10 08.35 spence m THANK YOU!!! I think that it will help a hole lot. ---------- response 2 07/10 09.32 deiss phar Thanks for us too. ---------- response 3 07/10 11.42 bradely iu Why?,what did _you_ do? ---------- note 415 sys error 07/10 02.38 weikart research system error: at about 235, 7/10/75, while editing pdpsrcb, I got: OUT-ERROR 0 0 Weikart/research ---------- response 1 07/10 10.59 white p Thanks. ---------- note 433 scheduling 07/10 12.07 deiss phar I want to renew an old request that the signon control lesson be modified so that time periods can be specified for what course can autosignon a terminal. For example, so that one can specify that terminal xxx autosignons to course A from 9 to 5 on MWF and to course B after 5....etc. Second, there should be an option such that the site directors can eliminate the escape from the autosignon during those periods. Otherwise the news spreads fast that you can press shift-stop and get on anyway. This would greatly facilitate classroom scheduling and help control cafeteria usage. Even if you tell people when and when not to use the terminals, they inevitably take all they can get. I have never met an author yet who felt good about telling them to go away. Students are usually to timid to ask others to get off also. Signup sheets help, but a little enforcement would be better. ---------- response 1 07/10 13.11 berger mfl It seems that the course restriction options will serve for you. The purpose of autosignon is NOT to restrict terminals to one particular signon or course. ---------- response 2 07/10 15.55 deiss phar The course restriction options wont give me what I'm after either. It doesn't matter where it goes to me - just that its there. ---------- note 436 wipeout 07/10 14.58 ladonna vienna what are the chances for an override at all remote sites allowing for replot of the screen when a line error wipes it out? often (average 3 times/day) a student will be in a lesson and a line error will erase the entire screen it is then left to the student to try to remember everything that was on the screen any hope??? moore-vienna- ---------- response 1 07/10 15.21 fritz ames About the only possibility would be to provide a key (DATA is a popular "replot" key) which replots the screen. This is a drawback (and a great advantage) of the plasma screens, since nothing has to "remember" what is on the screen. This way, the computer does not have to bother with constantly refreshing the screen, taking enormous amounts of computer time (which is short enough already!). Once the plasma screen is turned on, it stays on until turned off. However, this also means that it has no idea what to replot unless you specifically tell it. ---------- response 2 07/10 16.48 shirer s No hope. The computer "remembers" only enough data to retransmit the last few words in case of a single parity error. Evidently your line is bad enough to cause double- bit errors which are unrecoverable. I sympathize with you since my (usual) remote site also has a mickey-mouse telephone company which often has the red light flashing like the advertisement for a bawdy house. You might provide a key in each of your units which goes to that same unit. ---------- response 3 07/10 18.14 berger cerlcc I don't think you understand the problem, ladonna. The screen erase is _not_ the result of line errors. No one seems to be sure exactly what does cause this frequently-occuring problem, but it doesn't seem to be caused by line errors. ---------- response 4 07/10 18.20 parrello uimatha Maybe it's sending them to the wrong station! (see general note "overwrite") ---------- response 5 07/10 18.32 thomasson mus1 You wouldn't laugh very much if this turned out to be a software bug.¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇJim Thomasson 7/10/75 ---------- response 6 07/10 18.40 bowery rhrc There is a 1 in 2ˆ6 chance of an error being the type that will cause a full screen erase. (this is double parity only) If you have millions of errors, 2-3 erases a day is reasonable. In this case the DATA key suggested in each new main unit is wise. ---------- response 7 07/10 22.09 carter comm A reduction in line errors requires either better phone lines or better modems or coding schemes. Replacing 2000 modems a this stage seems impossible. For manufacturing reasons I don't understand, significant problems that were obvious at an early stage(100 terminals), such as the panel tilt and insufficient error correction capability, could not be corrected for the first 1000 terminals. ---------- note 349 3dshapes 07/10 15.41 brown uicc Are there any programs which will display 3-D shapes with arbitrary rotations ? ---------- response 1 07/10 16.27 kirn uicc See the response to your help note. ---------- response 2 07/10 17.07 celia pso Also look in the library section of aids, under Graphics. ---------- response 3 07/11 13.51 wegner phar lesson pfw3 might be what you want. check it out. Use the help key to learn about all the options. Leave me a pnote if you have any questions about it. WEG ---------- note 445 lesn param 07/10 16.48 friedman csa I have recently implemented a feature of the Computer Science router which I suggest would be generally applicable in many situations, and therefore, might be useful as a general Plato feature.↓ The basic problem is that sometimes, a lesson ought to be varied slightly depending on some information best known only to the instructor. In other words, when setting up a lesson sequence, the instructor might wish to say something like "use lesson zork, modification 2", where "zork" understands "modification 2" to specify a certain variation in the presentation of the material, such as the type of examples used. (In our case, it might be a variation in the dialect of FORTRAN being taught.)↓ [More in first response] ---------- response 1 07/10 17.02 friedman csa In other words, it ought to be possible for the instructor, in the curriculum options, to specify a "parameter" for a lesson. The lesson would then interpret that parameter; the meanings of various parameter values would have to be explained somewhere, perhaps within the lesson but shown only to authors or instructors.↓ This could probably be implemented the way -score- is implemented: a command to be executed by the router to set the parameter value before jumping to the lesson; and a system variable to carry the value, which would be read by the instructional lesson. The operational difference with -score- is that the parameter value would not be developed by the lesson; it would be specified by the instructor and stored as a property of the lesson in a particular sequence.↓ [more in next response] ---------- response 2 07/10 17.04 friedman csa The C.S. implementation passes the parameter chosen by the instructor in n-variables, of course. We have more or less arbitrarily limited the parameter to 5 bits, just because that much space happened to be available. For more on this implementation, see lessons c5notes and cslibrary (block passinfo) in author mode.↓ What do people think? Who else could use this? ---------- response 3 07/10 18.25 parrello uimatha I could use it. The foreign language department is using the system router and there are some lessons which we have to enter at different points. (Say, run through six lessons, go to drill 1 of review lesson, run through six more lessons, go to drill 2 of review lesson, and so forth.) Currently, we have to utilize a buffer lesson and reserve some bits of a very crowded student bank. ---------- response 4 07/11 07.58 fay rtv362 Give up. I think between myself and the systems people, we have generated a hundred pages of discussion on this very feature. It would be GREAT!!!! (make no mistake about _that_.) Anymore, I just dawdle along using the system router, wishing I could do something more flexible, yet conceding that it is a LOT easier than writing one's own router. Every now and again, I'll say "hey, sys person, given any more thought to allowing more flexibility in the system router?! However, Ruth Chabay is reported to be working on a spectac- ular NEW version of the system router to be released in the next month or so. A light at the end of the tunnel? ---------- response 5 07/11 09.13 bruce iehl mtc This capability would be a necessity for the success of the proposed "published lessons", but with the further extension that the using instructor be able to not only specify that the lesson be modified, but that he (with his team of programmers) be able to actually provide the modifications. I cannot imagine that the author of a lesson will be able to specify in advance all the customizing features for the future users of the published lesson. And it is quite common for teachers to specify additions, corrections, or selections when using a textbook, for example. ---------- response 6 07/11 10.05 friedman csa I can't imagine how the suggestion I made could possibly lead to the degree of flexibility requested in the previous response. What that really takes is a customized version of a lesson. What I have in mind is more along the lines of the parameter accepted by Warner's lesson "help", for example--the coded numbers he expects in n30. It can't really be all that complicated. I've already implemented the idea, going as far as a non-system feature can go. Ruth Chabay, would you care to comment? ---------- response 7 07/11 11.06 fay rtv362 I just found out that Ruth is out of town for a while, as is Bruce Sherwood (who also has had a lot to say about the system router in the past). Any other systems people care to comment? ---------- response 8 07/11 16.16 rader s Ruth will be back in a month; Bruce slightly earlier. Comment: how about entering the lesson at a different unit depending on what version (option) you want to set up? ---------- response 9 07/11 16.32 friedman csa Not really a viable suggestion. Consider a lesson with 3 different two-possibility modifications. A 3-bit parameter will do the job, but it would take _8_ different entry units to do it as Rader suggests. More important, the jumpout code would then have to be open or have to match; that just won't do in the general case. ---------- response 10 07/11 21.36 gustafson ed Is this more or less "calling" a lesson like a "subroutine"? If so, im for it! Guuk ---------- response 11 07/11 22.37 michael english If you ever do it, implement argumented jumpouts at the same time. It'd solve all such problems. ---------- note 449 exists? 07/10 17.05 clark lawyer Recently, while looking for new lessons, I typed in the word "net" at the author mode page and hit next. I recieved the "type in lesson security code message" and backed out to the author mode page. Thinking that I had found another lesson, I typed it in and hit data. I then recieved a "no does not exist" message. How is this possible? I am at a lost to explain this !! help!! $pig≤≤≤ pig≤≤≤pig≤≤≤ pig≤≤≤ pig≤≤≤ pig≤≤≤ J. Clark Kelso ---------- response 1 07/10 17.08 white p Net is a non-tutor file. As such, one can edit it, but can not execute it. The same thing happens when you type in your course name and hit DATA. ---------- response 2 07/10 18.10 randall lawyer What value does it have then if it cant be executed? Also, what type of material is put into a lesson that makes it non-executable and how does PLATO know when a lesson is non-tutor? ---------- response 3 07/10 18.19 frye mathb It can't be executed as a _TUTOR_ lesson. The code in "net" is COMPASS code which is used to run the PLATO system. It has no value as an "instructional" file, but without it you'd have a dead terminal. Dave ---------- response 4 07/10 18.27 parrello uimatha What value does course "lawyer" have if it can't be executed...? ---------- response 5 07/11 08.21 fritz ames And what were you doing snooping around for other people's lessons anyway? ---------- note 463 REsignon 07/10 23.29 alessi edpsych A couple problems with the new resignon feature. If your are IN the router an 'end lesson' , 'jumpout q' or just finishing the last unit all give you the DATA or STOP1 page, while pressing STOP1 signs you off. It would seem that end lesson and jumpout q in the router should send you to press next to begin. Why else would you have them in a router. At present the only way you can end a session when in the routher is with a "press stop1" command (or pressing stop1 of course). Can this be changed. Second, could a time limit be put on the DATA or STOP1 page, as im sure ill have lots of students leaving that on the terminal thinking they are signed off and other students will be able to get into their records. Thanks ---------- response 1 07/11 08.24 fritz ames According to Ruth Chabay (G.Note -$310, R3) there is a time limit of 3 minutes on the "DATA or STOP1" page. If a student does nothing in this time, he is thrown to the "Press NEXT to Begin" page. ---------- response 2 07/11 09.39 alessi edpsy Your right ....thanks ---------- response 3 07/11 10.06 friedman csa But how about the other problem? ---------- response 4 07/11 13.26 white p We will look into it. It might take a few days since the programmers that put the option in have left for Vacation. ---------- note 473 New block 07/11 11.48 stewart arizona Why it is that when you create a new block, you are not immediately put in Insert mode. This seems to be the most logical thing to do, and it would standardize the notes editor with the lesson editor. I know this isn't a big problem, but I was just wondering why there was the difference. Stewart ---------- response 1 07/11 12.02 holt ve Very often I want to IS into a newly created block (or even use ID). The lesson-editor is different to the notes-editor in that you do have more option than just insert. Therefore, please do not change the lesson editor. elsbeth holt ---------- response 2 07/11 12.13 frankel p Thats just what I said last time somebody asked the same question! ---------- response 3 07/11 13.29 dotson arizona well how about this ............ When the author enters a new block the arrow appears in the upper right hand corner with an "I" already pushed. This would allow the author to press -next- to go into insert mode or press an "s" and then -next- to insert save. And likewise for insert display and etc.. I am not saying that I don't like the way it is, but this is just a suggestion to this note. MAD ---------- resposne 4 07/11 13.41 michael english Talk about lazy...... ---------- resposne 5 07/11 13.41 r crooks medneta Now that is an excellent suggestion....It sure would make things easier. Olorin ---------- resposne 6 07/11 15.16 steve cornell I suppose they should put in some letter which, when pressed, would write your entire lesson for you. Maybe a SHIFT-COPY from the index page could be used. This would sure make lesson writing a whole lot easier ---------- resposne 7 07/11 15.50 bowery rhrc In terms of number of key presses: If one were put into Insert mode to begin with one would eliminate 2 key presses. This is not hte case if one is going into IS or ID. In this case one would press BACK and type in the letters. This would be a waste of 1 key-press. TOTAL SCORE: SUGGESTION 2 STATUS QUO 1 Assuming that each of the above things are done with a 50: probability. Personally, I begin by Insert mode more than 50: of the time however the suggestion would be advantagous down to a 33: probability of beginning in Insert mode. The probability of this is much higher than 33: in my estimation. ---------- response 8 07/11 15.50 hinton ssu Does it really take that long to press i,0 ? Now if they would just cut down the number of presses it takes to edit a common block.... ndh ---------- response 9 07/11 16.15 fumento pso How about having LAB as a jkey at the "enter block name" arrow so that: If NEXT is pressed after yo type in the block name you are put into insert mode. If LAB is pressed after you type in the block name the save buffer is inserted into the new block. ---------- response 10 07/11 16.20 fuller uimc I like the idea about -COPY1- a lot better... ---------- response 11 07/11 16.33 stewart arizona I agree that the COPY1 key would be nice if it would write your lesson for you. However I have always felt that the author should have to do something. Maybe instead of a COPY1 key have the author write the lesson and then insert a command at the beginning or the lesson that tells the condenser to rewrite the code so that it executes the way the author wanted it to, not the way he wrote it. If the system decides to add this command. I suggest that it be called the 'work' command. It would be a great way to get bugs out lessons. Stewart P.S. Once the work command is ready, I suggest that all system lessons use it. ---------- response 12 07/11 20.01 telson arizona perhaps a variation of a previous suggestion.. NEXT to go in normally (after creating a new block) LAB to go right to insert mode. this would solve all your problems (except bruce's laziness)! ---------- response 13 07/11 23.14 r gooch matha Is this all a joke? ---------- response 14 07/12 02.31 williams ed yeah, is it ? (all a joke) ---------- response 15 07/12 03.01 fumento pso My response was serious. ---------- response 16 07/12 10.34 frankel p OK, I've added the following to the editor... After typing the block name, hit NEXT, then I, then NEXT again, and you will automatically be put in Insert Mode. If you want to do something else, hit the appropriate keys at the right time and everything will be peachy. ---------- response 17 07/12 14.36 fuller uimc I wondered how long it would take systems to get into the spirit of things... ---------- response 18 07/12 19.36 wagle iu frankel, what do you mean by "what i have done to hte editor"??? the features you stated were already there...... ---------- response 19 07/13 01.52 ian conn someone seems to be missing the point, or else i think the point is missing...(?) ---------- response 20 07/13 15.02 frye mathb actually, this whole thing is rather pointless..... Dave ---------- response 21 07/13 17.40 stewart arizona After reading 20 response it is very hard to get to the point. But I finally found the point. And here it is..... ¬D^. ---------- response 22 07/13 22.19 p cohen med ↓ Thanks, Dave, for this new systems feature. It ↓will help my editing tremendously. ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ--paul ---------- response 23 07/14 11.54 todsen cerl ...and what a quick response to user suggestions!!! thanks a bunch! L¬≤T ---------- note 478 auth opt 07/11 12.21 s stone iu Did you realize that STOP1 is not active from the help for the author options? ---------- response 1 07/11 12.28 frankel p Now it works. ---------- response 2 07/11 12.56 stone iumusic Thanks, I was worried about that. ---------- note 493 errtype=5 07/11 16.28 friedman csa I just noticed a change in the description of "errtype" in Aids,; It now lists a new value, 5 ¬D stop1 out of condense queue. I'm sure this wasn't listed before. and it doesn't seem to work now: I tried to stop1 out of the condense queue while signed in with student records, but could not get out of the queue. Could anybody explain what is intended here?↓ Being able to stop1 a student out of the condense queue back to the router sounds like a good idea, but my router, for one, will need to have some special code to take this case into account. ---------- response 1 07/11 16.37 white p Ruth Chabay put this in to allow a student to escape from the condense queue if the condensor is not working. He must be in the queue for some time before it will allow him to escape, and under normal circumstances the condense will have been done before he has been in the queue that long. ---------- response 2 07/11 16.55 tenczar s I think I remember Ruth making a 30 second wait required before the student can even attempt to get out of the condense queue. ---------- response 3 07/11 20.35 friedman csa I wish this had been announced. My router creates some additional values for errtype, and 5 means something else to it. I can change it easily enough; I knew when I coded it this way that additional system values might be created some day. BUT HOW CAN I FIX MY ROUTER IF I DON'T KNOW THE PUBLISHED VALUES HAVE BEEN CHANGED? Can't you people at least make an announcement when you change an established feature? pLEASE!!!??? ---------- response 4 07/12 01.06 steve cornell I am sure I saw this announced a while back. I remember looking it up. It's unfortunate that we no longer get the bullet in board on signon, but maybe we should get in the habit of checking it once a day. Steve Lionel ---------- response 5 07/12 16.06 friedman csa If somebody can show me an announcement in new system features notes, I'll apologize all over the place. But I read new features notes almost daily, and I don't remember ever seeing this one. If it was announced on the "bulletin board", and nowhere else, I think that's pretty poor publicity. ---------- response 6 07/12 19.10 little buddy matha i also stumbled on this in AIDS the other day, and remember thinking that i was glad we weren't running right now or the occasional errtype=5 would be looking like errtype=4 , with great confusion accompanying. i don't like to put checks on system variables to make sure they are in range, but it seems that would have been a prudent move . . . just a slight case of summer madness, lets hope LB ---------- note 500 introtutor 07/11 19.08 meinschein iu I was wondering if anyone knew about other good lessons for a new author besides introtutor, introedit, and introplato. I am new at this and would appreciate any Gen Notes or PNotes on the above subject VERY Much! I wouldn't mind anyone who has any suggestions or comments leaving me a PNote either!! CLERIC ---------- response 1 07/14 18.21 kaplan mfl try introplato in lesson "rick". ---------- response 2 07/15 08.20 johnston ssu I very highly recommend lesson 'style'. If every lesson followed the conventions of 'style', there wouldn't be any more wars. ---------- note 503 notes flag 07/11 20.55 petry cstate Would it be better if when you send yourself a note, the NOTES flag doesnt come up? I mean, you send a p-note to yourself, and you have to either look at the NOTES all day or go thru your notes again just to get rid of it...Any comments? ---------- response 1 07/11 21.01 telson arizona no! if i send myself a note to remind me of something (why else would i send one to me?), that NOTES sign does what it is supposed to do-¬≤-remind me that i should look at a note. (mine or someone elses). ¬W¬W¬W¬W¬W spelling? ---------- response 2 07/11 21.35 hinton ssu Yep, that's how you spell it.... Your PlatospelOr (somethingsoon to be announced!) ---------- response 3 07/11 23.47 sellers arizona I would be in trouble on some of my demos if I couldn't turn on my NOTES flag at will. It is a standard part of my demo to send myself a note. ---------- response 4 07/12 12.23 ken conn Sorry, Ted, but I have to agree with Mr. Telson. I occasionally send myself notes, and it really isn't too much trouble to just hit c, and then BACK1. (you only have to enter personal notes to clear your flag..) Besides, it's a handy reminder, and VERY nice for demos. ken ---------- response 5 07/12 20.37 todsen cerl Another vote...PLEASE keep this the way it is.! ---------- response 6 07/13 12.23 layman matha else's ↑ˆ ¬W ---------- response 7 07/13 19.45 hinton ssu Wel, if he'd asked about punctuat_ion....≤≤≤≤_ ---------- note 523 *timleft* 07/13 11.44 michael english Command -timer- is great! It'll make some nice router control features possible, as will -timel-, which I assume is coming soon.↓ In order to help a lesson make an intelligent decision about which way to sequence a routed student, how about a system variable *timleft* which can be used by the route_d_ lesson to know how much time is left before the timed return jumpout is executed? Such information could be used to affect which choices are made available to the student, how many drill items are given, etc. ---------- response 1 07/13 16.02 white p The way -timer- is currently implemented, it would be rather difficult to give you such information, but it could be done if there were sufficient need for it. Are you really asking for a way to tell an instructional lesson to give a short course instead of a everything it has? If so, Dr. Friedman's suggestion of passing a parameter to the lesson might be a better way to do it. Indeed, -timel- is in the works. The only thing to be done before it can be released it to make it do a -helpop- type jump, instead of the current -help- type jump it is doing. This requires that -pause- allow -helpop- type jumps. ---------- response 2 07/14 01.17 parrello uimatha -helpop-s active at a pause?? Maybe life is worth living after all. ---------- response 3 07/14 12.58 berger mfl Even more worth living if one could determine where to let a student go in a lesson on the basis of how much time he has left. ---------- response 4 07/14 15.40 john r reading Why not a reserved word somw¬ewhere, set at the time of the execution of the -timer- command, that contains the floating point Julian day when the timer will go off. People can then compute their own time-left by simple subtraction. ---------- response 5 07/14 15.51 michael english I assume you mean a system reserved word, John? Passing parameters in student or router bank is chancy if you don't control both the router and the lessons, and a pain in the ass even when you do. ---------- note 531 response? 07/14 08.44 bc seager mtc any chance for a response (systems and/or other- wise) to g-note ¬$380? still a "problem" as far as i am concerned. thanks ---------- response 1 07/14 14.22 tenczar s out work force is depleted..the people who can act on this problem are above the arctic circle hiking in the Brooks Range of Alaska (i.e., Ruth Chabay, Dave Andersen) I am sure they will read through all the notes they missed while gone .... ---------- note 532 notecheap 07/14 09.48 wood siu Hey...I was going to send a copy of a note to a few people but I found out that I can't make copies of a note that I had writiten. Of course, I now know I could have sent the note to myself and then copied it, but I am lazy. How about correcting that? Ray Wood ---------- response 1 07/14 10.22 fuller uimc Somehow, I think this is already rectified... Is the -data1- option what you are looking for (while reading a note)? D. Fuller ---------- response 2 07/14 10.37 ken conn If I understand correctly, what you're looking for is already there. When you send a note, you're then returned to the "last note sent..." page, and from here you can type another person's sign-on, and get the option(s) of sending same note, editing same note, or sending new note. It's been there for awhile. ---------- note 535 ?right? 07/14 10.38 me smithy mtc LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY I'm in the forth part of a six part lesson, in block (e) and I hit -BACK- all the sudden I go back to the first part. I didn't intend on going there, but rather to the forth part to work in block (f). Is there a way you can use the -BACK1- for reterning to the first part and -BACK- to the part you where working in? It would be nice and not to difficult. ?rIGHT/ LAZY is the word for it but to an unsuppecting author it's confussion. ---------- response 1 07/14 10.44 steve cornell I can not reproduce your problem. I went to the 6th part of a 12 part lesson, went into block, pressed BACK, and found myself still looking at part 6. Can you reproduce the "error"? Steven Lionel P.S. You also seem too lazy to spell anything correctly. ---------- response 2 07/14 11.51 fritz ames I think your problem is that you have the functions of the keys mixed up. BACK from a block will take you to the block page of the part that block is in, and "-" will move you back one part, "+" forward one part, etc. BACK from the block page will take you to the author page. Pressing a number will take you to that part ¬$. ---------- response 3 07/14 12.55 glish itv To clarify this issue: If you are editing in a charset or common block in any part other than part 1 you _will_ be returned to part 1 when pressing BACK. Although this is a minor problem it would be nice if BACK could return you to the proper block page from charsets and commons as it does from other types of blocks. ---------- response 4 07/14 13.05 berger mfl Jim, The reason that BACK from a charset or common takes you to the first part of the lesson is that the charset editor and common editor lessons do a simple jumpout to return you to your block directory page. I'm not sure that it's worth the trouble to change. ---------- response 5 07/14 13.19 jim g reading Oh You're so right, Berger! It's only confusing as hell to new authors and only drives some of us the wall when editting many charset blocks in multi-part lessons (as well as common blocks). Obviously you are right, it can't be worth the trouble to change, I mean, what the hell, it doesn't bother you so it's not worth the trouble. (Sheesh!) ---------- response 6 07/14 14.51 kaufman mfl it makes it enormously tedious at times to be bounced back to the first part after editing the first, then second, then third, then...etc. block of a bunch of common blocks as I for one am doing a lot at times - it may be the case that it is not considered worth the extra status bits needed to keep track of what part of your lesson you jumpout'd to the common/dataset editor from, especially if such status bits are scarce, but it certainly would be convenient...! ---------- response 7 07/14 15.13 begrer mfl Don't misunderstand me, Jimˇ2. I would like to see the feature too, but surely you're aware of how difficult it is to control such things by passing parameters in a jumpout. ---------- response 8 07/14 15.27 john r reading Berger: Jim is aware. I aw aware. You are aware. Most competent PLATO authors are aware. But since you aren't on the systems staff, why not let THEM comment on the feasibility/importance of such suggestions. ---------- response 9 07/15 08.03 berger mfl John R., 1. My response wasn't the first, so if systems staff passed over this note because there had already been a response, that's not due to _my_ response. 2. My response is factual - so I fail to see what jus- tification you have for complaining about it. 3. If it is more pleasing to you, I can fake a "system response" message at the top of the page - that seems to be more important to you than the content of the note. Mike Berger ---------- note 537 bad erase 07/14 11.09 clark lawyer Why is it that lines errors occur most often when something on the screen is being erased? I dont know if this is true of all terminals, but at this one, we get many errors (and not just today) when plato is erasing the screen selectively. Is this due to the nature of the signal or what???? Anyone??? ---------- note 544 notesflag 07/14 14.02 petry cstate In reference to gen note 504, how about an option to enable you to have the NOTES flag show, but then again you can turn it off while still on the author mode page? ---------- response 1 07/14 15.16 berger mfl Isn't this stretching flexibility a little too far? ---------- response 2 07/14 15.19 cnb faa Aw come on now...when you get mail you get it, and when you don't you don't, period. ---------- response 3 07/14 18.30 kaplan mfl I fail to understand...What difference does it make if you have to see NOTES written on the autor mode page every time you get there. Is it really that annoying? (Besides...I kind of get a thrill out of it..... kind of like getting junk mail) ---------- response 4 07/16 12.54 m felty cerl The -NOTES- message was put there to inform you that you have p-notes that you have not looked all the way through yet. If you don't like the message, why don't you just read your notes? If you have so many of them saved that it is a pain ot hit keys to get ot the last one, why don't you save and delete some fot he old ones? Otherwise, why should four or five quick keypresses bother you that much? PLATO is one of the few places I know of where someone does something intended to be helpful, and inevitably someone complains. J. M. Felty ---------- note 545 concept 07/14 14.10 dm iowa I would appreciate anyone who knows of lessons with effective uses of -concept-, -vocabs-, etc. commands in them to tell me of those lessons. Also, Anyone who has such a lesson, I would appreciate being allowed to inspect it. I am trying to write my own lesson using these commands, and am running into difficulties. Turkey (dm of iowa) --------- response 1 07/14 16.29 todsen cerl i sympathize...i had trouble when i first used -concept- in my lesson. How much PLATO programming experience have you had? See "aids" / DATA "dialogues" for a complete writeup of -concept-, -vocabs-, -endings-, flags set, use of phrases, continuation of -concept- for "synonymous" ideas, etc, etc. For example, you might want to use synonymous -concept-s to allow for variations in sentence construction: 'The chicken crossed the road' and 'The road was crossed by the chicken'. i've also found it useful to use a -specs okxvocab,okcap- so that the zillions of possible "ignorable" words don't have to be included in the -vocabs-, and so the student can capitalize the beginning of "important" (vocabulary) words. If "aids" and a test unit or two don't answer your questions, drop me a personal note and I'll try to help. ---------- response 2 07/15 08.31 mont csa You're welcome to execute and inspect lesson fortintro, what I have there seems to work. However, I don't guarantee that I've done everything in the best way! rich montanelli ---------- note 550 use error 07/14 15.16 s stone iu I just got a nonrepeatable -use- error: Not found. ---------- response 1 07/14 15.31 frankel p Thanks... ---------- note 558 conquest 07/14 16.43 dm iowa Yet another request to change the 'feature' of conquest that kicks you out of the universe when you have too much money in reserve. Either raise the limit or take limits out altogether...the amount in reserve is not an accurate indication of overall wealth in any case. Also, the 'z' command should be changed to at least a shift-z. I live in dread of my elbow accidentally knocking the keyboard. Turkey (dm of iowa) ---------- response 1 07/14 16.52 fuller uimc -yawn- ---------- response 2 07/14 17.45 kaufman mfl really ---------- response 3 07/14 18.08 berger mfl "turkey" is accurate. ---------- response 4 07/14 19.06 steve cornell These helpful people are trying to say that you ought to send a p-note to warner/iu. Notes on games are definitely not for general notes. Steve Lionel ---------- note 565 nu feature 07/14 18.39 kaplan mfl What is the possibility of having a message at the bottom of the author mode page saying that there are new system features. This way one would not have to survey the bulliten board every time one signed on. ---------- response 1 07/14 19.26 mg smith mtc uhhhh... awhile back, (I can't remember when. I just spent the last half-hour or so searching for it.) I brought up this suggestion. The result was a "no go!". sorry. neep. norp. ---------- response 2 07/14 19.53 kaplan mfl If I am correct in my memory, it was a "no go" for having an author taken directly to≤≤≤≤≤≤≤__≤________ the bulletin. I was just suggesting a message or signal(ie: a letter such as "B" in the bottom corner) to let one know that there is something new going on. ---------- response 3 07/14 20.24 blomme s Much longer than long ago I suggested that the Bulletin Board feature be made changeable "on-line" and that we use a BULLETIN message like a NOTES message whenever there was a change to it (that hadn't been looked at)... these things are not only possible, but they will be done some day be someone--but when and by whom are obviously still unclear. ---------- note 570 time erase 07/14 20.31 bowery rhrc Suggest that the dot at 0,511 used to keep the pannel from doing a full screen erase be erased with another dot data word in mode erase rather than a space in mode rewrite. This would destroy less information. (and would require less output) ---------- response 1 07/15 00.54 tenczar s well...what we are doing is sending out a period-backspace- space in mode rewrite at 3264. it is done by a special command that transfers writing between terminals (there is a special "non-hardware" terminal whose function is to checkpoint student records, look for terminals needing to have their panels kept alive, etc.). we ain't got a dot sender 'tween terminals! something to do when we get everything else done! ---------- response 2 07/15 09.20 bruce iehl mtc Hey!! Can I get one of these "new look" non-terminals? ---------- response 3 07/15 10.49 berger mfl You wouldn't want one... they're real dummies! ---------- note 571 editor 07/14 20.49 stewart arizona I have a suggestion for a new editor command. This command would allow the author to transfer text from his lesson space to the notes file. This 'insert note' (IN) lesson and bring the code he wants to insert in a note to the top of the page. Then he would type INx, where x is the number of lines he wants to save. Then the editor would go to the notes file. Here the author could insert the saved code in a note with the IS command. This feature would allow and author to save a note, and at a later time insert that note in another note instead of having to refer back to it. Or an author could insert some code that is not acting properly in a note, and see if someone else can find out what is wrong. feel about this?? How do other ahthors feel about this? Stewart ---------- response 1 07/14 21.25 woolley p This option will soon be available for general, help, and personal notes. ---------- response 2 07/14 21.29 mg smith mtc you really know how to make a guy who has been feeling pretty low these past few days feel better, dave. thanks. ---------- response 3 07/14 23.17 telson arizona why not just make the standard "IS" work here? ---------- response 4 07/15 00.05 bowery rhrc Thats right. ---------- response 5 07/15 14.30 s zweig iu An excellent idea. To all the good systems folks, keep up the good work, and......HURRY!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- note 575 PCC 07/14 22.15 steve cornell Some while back, someone asked for the address of the People's Computer Company. I have just run across an ad for them. You can send $1 for a sample copy of their excellent publication to: People's Computer Company P.O. Box 310 Menlo Park, CA 07052 Steve Lionel ---------- response 1 07/15 17.48 obrien uicc Good question whether you're going to get the PCC News- letter (Bob Albrecht) , or the Community Computer Center (the going concern, w. Dave DeLisle). I understand they've come to a parting of the ways out there. ---------- note 577 search 07/14 23.35 wegner phar Is there any particular reason why one has to know the change code just to search the lesson via lesson search. I was looking for all the authors in course usc the other day and had to look at 28 blocks one by one. I would hate to think how long it would take to do the same in lesson catalog which has about 108 blocks for one to look through. Is this inconvenience necessary or just an oversight. Why cant only the inspect code be required for searching lessons via lesson search. WEG ---------- response 1 07/15 08.24 david hebrew See responses to Gen. note ¬$220 (this set) for the answer to your question. Dave Fumento--why don't you put the explanation into the -HELP- pages for X-search (or activate -HELP- when it says to "type in security code"). The number of times this question has been asked makes it quite clear that the subject cries out for clear documentation in the lesson itself. ---------- response 2 07/15 13.35 fumento pso You read my mind. A policy explanation will be in shortly. ---------- note 579 sys error 07/15 00.30 assem research At 0017 on 7/15/75, I was editing the last block of pdpsrcb. I pressed "-1" to go back to the beginning of the block, and then pressed two "#"'s in rapid succession (before waiting for the first 5 lines of the block to be listed). The editor got into an infinite loop, listing the _first_ 5 lines of the block not the lines that should have been reached with the two "#"'s), then pausing ¬;2 seconds, etc. The keyset was locked up (including STOP1), so I turned off the terminal and turned it back on agai., I then found that PLATO was down. Weikart/Research ---------- response 1 07/15 01.31 bowery rhrc This happened to everyone. For some it was less obvious as most did not have a full screen erase resent every 3 seconds or so. ---------- response 2 07/15 02.39 rader s Due to an operator error, plato thought there was a disk error. A curious bug causes us to continue sending you your last output parcels, but plato in fact is sending out messages to the central console asking for a system programmer. The effect of this incident is the same as a PLATO "crash". The repeated output is rather amazing, isn't it! ---------- response 3 07/15 03.11 wegner phar to say the least! ---------- response 4 07/15 09.45 hinton ssu Frightening, in fact ! ---------- note 584 arrays ! 07/15 06.38 shirer s An announcement of the general release of the first batch of Plato ARRAY features has been placed in the new features notes (option d). To forestall a rash of personal notes. let me assure you: 1) These will NOT affect the way indexed or segmented variables are used now. 2) Yes indeed, they are faster than a doto loop if you are doing only a few operations at a time. However the main advantage is not intended to be speed, but the automatic bounds checking and the more powerful -calc- features that this makes available. 3) I am going to work on something else for a while, but the next array features I am thinking of installing will be the array -fill- and some array functions. Have fun with your new toy, matrix fans! ---------- response 1 07/15 08.12 petak ed Just fantastic! Something like this has been needed for a long time. Now all I have to do is rewrite my matrix using lessons to take advantage of it! Thanks muchly, Steve ---------- response 2 07/15 08.49 s stone iu Are segmented arrays coming soon? ---------- response 3 07/15 09.25 carter comm The entire process surrounding these additions-- the request for user input, the discussion of proposed facilities, the implementation of 'higher-level' functions and the complete documentation are examples of PlATO at its best. My compliments. ---------- response 4 07/15 10.49 kaufman mfl poifectly superb (_especially_ when all those functions come up)! what's so bad about APL keywords (though prefer ↑* (A) instead of ¬s) ? ---------- response 5 07/15 11.43 layman matha hip! hip! array! TomL VPS ¬* the display features are real nice! ---------- response 6 07/15 12.47 glish itv A welcome feature, but what's the hangup with segmented arrays? I've been used my own version of segmented arrays now for almost 2 years now with no problems. It sure will be nice to set an array with one command though..and to display them will with one command will be simply great. I know how much work it must have been and believe me there are a lot of people out here who appreciate it all. Thanks....... ---------- response 7 07/15 17.17 bowery rhrc I've been drooling over lesson array for months now. Thanx for this quantum jump in TUTOR. ---------- note 594 id,sd,ss 07/15 10.04 me smithy mtc HOW ABOUT≤T THIs FOLKS...the ultimate author option. While your in SD,SS,ID (what ever mode is best) to add an option to allow one to insert commands like (unit,pause,ect..) by hitting a key-press it asks you what comand and then what flag. AND ALL this while you still remain in SS,SD,ID. NEAT.....right? I know the systems people are going to redo those options so I wanted to suggest this before they started. ---------- response 1 07/15 10.08 fritz ames Sounds reasonable enough, and it would be real easy to implement (unless they have some method for source code generation radically different than the method I use). Could come in very handy! How about it, Marshall? ---------- response 2 07/15 10.50 sam martin ve I would like to see a key press which inhibited the plotting of the grid coordinates when first entering ID or SD. : : I don't believe that an option to insert unit commands into source code while in SD or ID, is very crucially needed. ---------- response 3 07/15 11.09 fritz ames And while we 're at it, how about some key to replot the screen (like BaCK in service)? When you're doing fine drawing, all those o's at endpoints make it about impossible to see what's happening. A replot key would be much nicer than having to back out and re-show it. ---------- response 4 07/15 11.23 silver ve I like the latter idea. Also: one type of none display code which does belong in ID or SS is touch command generation -- one could generate a display, hit a key to begin a touch command, and then touch the display areas to be active. Pressing -back- would end input for that particular touch command. I know this would be a limited with the present touch command, but \since a multiple tag -touch- seems to be in the works... ---------- response 5 07/15 17.32 midden p Growl, mumble, grumble, maybe. (pause will be an active command--both timed and blank) Touch panel...hummm. Will have to think some more. Marshall Midden ---------- note 604 dataset 07/15 13.58 brand matha Executing a dataset command while someone is editing the dataset returns an error (zreturn) of 2. This is listed both in lessons dataset and aids as a disk error. Can the documentation be changed to prevent premature heart attacks by us programmers? ---------- response 1 07/15 14.06 kaufman mfl one vote for - this would/will freak out many people in some of my dataset file editors ---------- response 2 07/15 17.07 rader s Ok. ---------- response 3 07/15 20.23 brand matha Thanks! ---------- note 606 pnotes 07/15 14.07 s stone iu I got a message saying that my pnotes file was 80: full. However, there were only 6 notes there and my file will hold 18. Something very strange.. ---------- response 1 07/15 14.17 sam martin ve Your course pnotes file is 80: full. That does not necessarily mean that your personal space in that file is 80: full. ---------- note 609 Rm.165 07/15 15.15 tebby pso Rooms 165A and 165B in CERL at the U of I will be closed until Thursday, July 17 for air conditioning motor repairs. ---------- response 1 07/15 16.35 pollack ll382 is there any other place on the U of I main campus to work at night during the period that 165 will be out of comission ---------- response 2 07/15 17.20 tebby pso I am afraid not without special permission. You could ask Keith Myers tomorrow about For. Lang. Bldg., but they close at 5 in the summer time usually. ---------- note 616 disk cont 07/15 18.23 obrien uicc Considering that it has always been felt (and stated) that disk accesses are the Big Sticky Problem in implementing so many things, I was wondering why no one ever thought to install more than one disk controller so that more than one disk operation could be in progress at once. Is there no chance of changing the side door adapter to allow for two or more disk-ecs channels to run? ---------- response 1 07/15 18.37 midden p The side door adapter is being done away with in regards to disk accesses. As to more than one disk controller, money is hard to come by. Right now plans are being carried out to get more space for disk drives (A remodeling of the old Plato III computer room). Also if two disk controllers were connected, I wonder how in the hardware one controller could access disks hooked onto the other controller. (i.e. one won't be able to use the others wire connections. Hardware doesn't come like that too often) Marshall Midden ---------- response 2 07/15 23.34 rader s O'Brien is correct that we can multiply our disk accesses by getting more channels/controllers working. We are aware of this. As Marshall says, however, it all does cost money. Now if you were building your own dream machine, you could add another controller or so--you need two ppu's per controller to get your money's worth (1 to 1 interlace)-- and so 2 or 3 controllers might be possible...and if you buy more ppu's, many more. You will obviously find a shortage of cpu eventually, assuming you look at the data. As to the redundancy question that Marshall raises, many of our drives (not to mention our controller) happen to be dual-access--so the hardware work for many things has been done. And we are indeed getting rid of the Side Door Adapter--and getting better error recovery and more versatile operation (and lower lease cost) at the same time. ---------- response 3 07/16 01.08 blomme s To state part of a personal prejudice: the move to "do away with " the side door adapter is also bringing with it the "benefits" of quite a few man months worth of re-programming to do (in complicated fashion) with 2 ppu's what we are already doing with 1 ppu. As to error recovery, I yield to anyone else who has statistics--my own impression is that most of the disk troubles have been due to massive disasters at the disk controller level (or just plain non-functioning drives)...but it is indeed true that having to handle each sector of data individually also makes it possible to utilize some of the fancy error recovery techniques available, which is not possible under the "all-or-nothing" arrangement we have with the side door adapter. We have to have another port to ecs for another computer some day and there has turned out to be little alternative to removing the side door. ---------- response 4 07/16 12.40 fuller uimc Does this mean, then, that the Side Door goes, and AMS stays connected to ECS? Hmmm... *** end of notes ***