+++ plato iv group notes +++ general interest notes 1975 notes beginning oct 1, 1975 file onotes37 printed at 3:49 am on june 12, 1976 ---------- note 0 musgen 10/01 00.17 nate iumusic Finally! The first version of MUS-GEN is currently running in lesson iumus1. This is routine allows people that need the music staff displayed, and notes plotted on it to do so easily. Upon completion, it will store the necessary tutor code to display what was typed in (at the location typed in) into permanent common, available for copying into into your own lesson and converting it to source blocks. This is a bare-bones version of the program. There are more features coming. I am aware that the help-pages are at best, cryptic. Will work on that. Would appreciate knowing any bugs that come about.(one feature that is coming is a -use-able version for people that don't have the room in their lessons for all the screen coordinates needed) Nate Syfrig ---------- response 1 10/02 13.07 nate iumusic Music people: You have just seen a little announcement about the lesson previously...however, since that note was written, the lesson HAS BEEN MOVED to lesson "musgen" (of course, without quotes)...Thanks! Nate ---------- note 4 systemword 10/01 09.51 tamar cerlcc The system's new defined words 'comp' and 'sign' are used in many lessons of mine and of the mathcc group. Can someone of the system describe what exactly each word is used for and when so I'll know what wasn't collected right. I also want to ask if it is possible to change the new syst. words to all start with z or x or something strange like this so it won't interfere with regular defines. (is it still possible to change the two new system words or are they already used in many places?) ---------- response 1 10/01 10.07 warner iu I'm not a sysperson, but I know what the problem is. comp and sign are both new functions. comp(x) returns the bitwise complement of x, so that 0000000000012345677 comes out 0777777777765432100. sign(x) returns -1 if x<0, 0 if x=0, 1 if x>0. If system functions are redefined, the system functions become unavailable and the user defines take over. A warning message is shown. Changing the name of the defined function will fix the problem. Adding "x" as you suggest will do it, except possibly in the case of student defines used at an arrow. ---------- response 2 10/01 10.35 mike b cornell Whether or not sysvars are used widely in lessons (as they indeed are) wouldn't matter if Systems decided to implement the convention you suggest. They would simply have to run a conversion routine that would change all references in lessons to the new names. That would cost overhead, however, and its really much easier for _you_ to change _your_ variable names by adding a "z" or "x". M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 3 10/01 16.05 cberpriller arizona However, the point is that something that is written today may conflict with a new sysvar or sysfunction that is implemented tomorrow. The suggestion to use some naming convention for these sys words would make matters much easier for authors. In this manner, an author could just simply not use any names that fall into the sys word convention. This kind of a convention is important if PLATO is expected to expand its software, and yet have lessons which will survive software changes, such as the adding of sysvars and sysfunctions. We cannot expect lessons to survive if a new version of the software conflicts with old lesson code. If lessons do not survive, the PLATO cannot survive. The suggestion of naming conventions is extremely reasonable and probably desirable. Systems comment??? dave ---------- response 4 10/01 16.32 woolley p Remember that a define command takes precedence over system definitions. There is therefore no danger that a new system function will cause existing lessons to stop working. (Although they will get a condense warning.) ---------- note 11 identify 10/01 12.46 meers wright I think the signon procedure might be simplified for beginning Plato students (1ˆsˆt or 2ˆnˆd time) if each of three sign-in pages were labeled. Labels appearing near the bottom of the page such as N A M E C O U R S E P A S S W O R D would be seen much easier than the word 'course' such as is hidden within the second page. Students often do not read the instructions because they are too busy trying to figure out what to do.. These labels would enable an instructor to say 'Type in ***** on the course page' and students would get some grasp of what the course page really is. ---------- response 1 10/01 15.05 friedman csa Interesting but apparently true: that at least some people are least likely to read instructions, just when they have the most need to read them. ---------- response 2 10/01 16.05 bruce iehl mtc Some people read the instructions tooo carefully. When visitors see the instruction "type your name" they type theirs in, then find out they don't have a course or aren't registered. It seems like "type your registered name" would be more accurate. Maybe this is why most people don't bother with instructions? ---------- response 3 10/01 18.34 wegner phar I think that this feature would make the process at least somewhat similar to other systems and hence make the process of logging on feel a little more 'natural' Not to mention that prompts like NAME etc are a little more direct and simplistic looking. ---------- response 4 10/02 08.56 bonetti ced We have found here at the med center that most students are confused by the word "course". They have no problems with entering there name but when they see "Type the name of your course..." they enter things such as "biochemistry" or "anatomy" or whatever it is they came in to study. It might be better if the wording was changed to "Type the name of your PLATO course.." although I'm sure some student will say to me, "But I didn't register for a course in PLATO. I want to learn biochemistry." Sigh. ---------- response 5 10/02 15.46 wood siu I tend to agree. Alot of confusion results here as SIU when a new student (or just a passerby) comes in and wonders if he should put in his full name. Ray Wood ---------- response 6 10/03 10.05 rader s Instructions, as someone here commented, are indeed least useful to those who need them most--they are often too dis-oriented to make sense out of them. The cueing suggested in this note appears to have some merit. The largest benefit is probably the simplicity with which one can then give instructions to students about how to sign in. It will always remain the responsibility and task of the instructor to introduce students to the terminal, however-- no system of cueing can succeed on its own for all students. ---------- response 7 10/04 15.22 gilpin peer Last winter when a new signon procedure was being designed, I put up a simulation whose features included greatly simplified displays and the phrasings "PLATO name" and "PLATO course". The simulation was shouted down by users mostly on grounds that "the displays are YUCK!". This note and its responses suggests that the concepts may nevertheless have merit. ---------- note 13 routersecs 10/01 14.09 roper siu Since we are trying to be good neighbors down here at SIU, we wanted to know about the ECS charge for routers. Is the ECS charge for the system router 50 words? Do individual course routers shared by more than one student carve up the total ECS between all students running on the router, or does each student get charged for the whole router? We were wondering since ECS seems to be getting crunched again. Thanks, Quetzal ---------- response 1 10/01 14.29 golden s Yes the current charge for the system router is 50 words per student, but it may have to go up some. Other routers are like ordinary lessons, they are charged to a site once for any number of users. Any storage a router may use, and the router variables, are charged to each student. ---------- note 17 plato? 10/01 15.36 olson ced Just out of curiosity....what does the word Plato stand for? At first I thought it was from the real Plato of many moons ago but now someone told me that its a word made up from other words. Anyone know? Thanks ---------- response 1 10/01 15.42 golden s It really is Plato, the Greek, but having chosen the name, a bunch of not too meaningful words were then chosen so that it would be an acronym. Acronyms were very popular in 1959. I am pleased that their popularity is falling. ---------- response 2 10/01 16.10 oberpriller arizona Programmed Logic for Automatic Teaching Operations ---------- response 3 10/01 16.11 bruce iehl mtc But old acronyms never die, we still have it on the blackboard; never erased since written there 3 years ago: Programmed Logic for Automatic Teaching Operations. ---------- response 4 10/01 22.29 lh nawrocki mtc 1. Acronyms will always be with us (unfortunately). Most of the time people think of the acronym first and then find words to "fill it out", which means there is no surprise that the "naive" can- not translate. 2. A previous respone tells what PLATO "stands for" (2?), but what it really stands for is a a group of dedicated and believing people, who, with extraordinary energy, have sold what people ought to buy without being sold - a d--m good concept backed by a d---ed good means for attaining it. Too bad so much time has to be wasted selling people what they already need. ---------- response 5 10/02 14.11 gilpin peer Besides PLATO, there was once on the Illinois campus a: System to Organize Content, Review And Teach Educational Subjects It was designed by an educational psychologist rather than an engineer; it had a short life. I also dimly recall an ARISTOTLE somewhere, but I don't remember the expanded title that went with it. ---------- response 6 10/03 02.51 blomme s Sorry, I must object! The SOCRATES programming system was designed by Scott Krueger, myself, Jan Schultz, and Jim White. The hardware was extremely primitive (only a film advance display device and about a 15 key keyset), but it was well over a year after Scott and I came to to the PLATO project before many of the programming features (like being able to sign on and off and be a person instead of a station number!) were finally implemented on the PLATO III system. (This was in the pre- and beginning TUTOR days.) ---------- response 7 10/04 16.09 gilpin peer It was the hardware configuration of SOCRATES that I was referring to, Rick. It was indeed the case that the software that you, Scott, et al provided for SOCRATES was in some respects very elegant compared to the PLATO software of the same era. But it is also true that SOCRATES died and you came to work at PLATO. The point of my incidental remark was that the complaints one sometimes hears about the final decisions at PLATO being made by engineers are know-nothing complaints. The landscape is littered with the bones of systems where the final decisions were made by educators/psychologists. ---------- note 26 course rec 10/01 18.41 oberpriller arizona How About Dep't: It would be nice to have a feature in course records which would allow a course director to delete all students who have not signed on in the past xx days (xx specified by the course director). Lacking this, it would be useful to be able to delete a student by HELP1 when looking at his records. Either of these would alleviate having to go thru the records name-by-name, writing the names of the students to delete, then deleting them. Comments, anyone? How about it, System People? dave ---------- response 1 10/01 22.17 baker me Sounds good to me!! Fred Baker ---------- response 2 10/03 08.08 roper siu It might be safest to do this as a blanket delete in much the same way that new messages are now written... i.e., the system would scan for people not having signed on in xx days, present the name of the first person who fulfills the condition and allows Shift-HELP to delete or Shift-NEXT to leave him around. This would allow you to inspect the names before deletion in case there is someone who has been off for some legitimate reason and intends to return. Quetzal ---------- response 3 10/03 09.32 hinton ssu I would hope that the course director would check with the instructor first: in several courses here, instructors are using Plato materials at widely spaced times during the semester, and if the students were deleted, they would have to be re-entered a few weeks later. ---------- note 27 vocabs err 10/01 19.43 brant ames Using vocabs, I have been getting the condense message: system problem (error no. 1) This, in my case, was caused by failure to have the 'endings' commands I was using with the vocabs before the vocabs command. Perhaps more appropriate diagnostic messages should be written in this case. George Brant ---------- response 1 10/02 09.19 k mast p Is it repeatable? If so, could we have the lesson name and sequence used to produce the error? Thanks for reporting. ---------- note 28 linechar 10/01 20.24 david hebrew Lessons "lineset" and "olineset" will be changed to lessons "linechar" and "olinechar" in the next few days. E. ---------- note 29 subcomitee 10/01 20.40 kh barr mtc The PLATO Users' Advisory Subcommittee on Peripherals for PLATO Terminals invites relevant inquiries and inputs via lesson "peripheral" to its continuing discussion of the issues and problems associated with microfiche, audio de- vices, printers, peripheral interconnects, and the other equipment that attaches to a PLATO terminal. ---------- note 30 and now... 10/01 21.45 fritz ames ¬↑ˆ ANNOUNCING↓ For Use by the General Public (or anyone else)↓ THE U L T I M A T E CHARACTER GENERATOR!!! Now, in lesson "van", the answer to all your huge-char dreams! This lesson will allow you to edit, format in common (or unformat from common), 24 characters at a time! Other features include the ability to: Shift or Rotate any size block of characters Fill, Clear, Reverse, or Inspect any number of characters Move, Copy, or Swap characters NOTE: This lesson has been tested thoroughly, BUT it is NOT guaranteed to be bug-free or perfect. I have been working on it so long I may not see the forest for the trees, and want feedback as to possible clarifications, improvements, etc. A notesfile has been attached to hold your comments. ↓(cont. ¬D) ---------- response 1 10/01 21.45 fritz ames Thanx to: parrello/uimatha Help section, shift ¬+ rotate options bowery/comm inspirational suggestions and ideas (and the lesson space!) daleske/ames Many, many helpful suggestions brant/ames and criticisms We hope you like it! fritz/ames parrello/uimatha bowery/comm ---------- response 2 10/06 18.52 bowery comm I have been informed that I apparently had no right to use lesson "van" for this purpose even though the person for whom it was intended gave me permission to use it as a work space. Thus, the character generator will soon be moved to another more permenant lesson assuming it isn't wiped out before the lesson can be obtained through normal channels. ---------- note 34 policy 10/01 23.34 levinson cerl I am the student representive to the PLATO Policy Committee for the 1975-76 academic year. I would appreciate any comments, criticisms, and or suggestions relating to these three policy questions: 1. What criteria should be used for the allocation of PLATO treminals on the Urbana-Champaign campus? 2. When the PLATO project becomes a major device for delivering instruction, should it be moved from the Computer-based Education Research Laboratory to another administrative location? 3. What resources are required to make the maximun effective use of this system? Please sent all comments, suggestions, and or criticisms via p-notes or via general notes. Thankyou, James levinson ---------- response 1 10/02 08.48 jim g reading Please define what you mean by "allocation" of terminals. Would you mind listing the other members of this group, so that we can understand the composition and structure. ---------- response 2 10/02 08.50 berger mfl 1. What is the PLATO policy committee?↓ 2. Whom do you represent?↓ 3. What other groups are represented?↓ 4. What is the status of the committee? Advisory, or otherwise? ---------- response 3 10/02 10.31 b sherwood phys I think this must be a committee chaired by Vice-Chancellor for Academic Affairs Weir. He formed the committee a couple years ago to give him a forum for planning related to PLATO. I may miss a few, but members include Don Bitzer (director, CERL), Ralph Simmons (head, Physics), George Badger (assoc. director, CSO), Bob Davis (Curriculum Lab, and assoc. director, CERL), Harold Hake (psychology), and Bruce Sherwood (physics, and asst. director, CERL). There are several more -- maybe someone will jog my memory. The committee meets 2-3 times per year to discuss broad issues related to PLATO. The policy questions listed by Levinson are to be emphasized this year. ---------- response 4 10/02 11.43 kh barr mtc You can find a list of this committee in Part 2, Block d of lesson "usched", which also contains recent deliberations of the PLATO Users' Advisory Committee. ---------- response 5 10/06 08.13 mont csa Feedback from our students indicates that the least liked aspect of using PLATO is room 165 ERL. It's too far from other classrooms for daytime work, and many students are afraid to walk up there at night. Clearly terminals should be in more convenient locations. Also, rooms with terminals should be designed for them, with more light, more comfor- table chairs, sound absorbing carrolls, more space between terminals, etc. ---------- response 6 10/11 16.27 char mathw more light? ..... you must be kidding .... of course, if the light is directed, or the terminal positioned, in such a way that the screen glare we usually experience in 165 is minimized, then great ... i, too, would like to see something along the lines of the classroom at FLB, here at the U of I ....however, that type of endeavor takes some financing, and where are we to lay hands on floor space and funding for such a facility set-up that would incorp- orate such acceptable and desirable features? ---------- note 35 sys error 10/02 00.44 galcher uimc To whom this may concern: At 12:30 AM this morning, I made some minor changes to my lesson and pressed STOP1 to recondense. Instead of seeing the familiar now condensing blah I was greeted with a quite unfamiliar message, which said the following: - Call your Instructor - -- Illegal Error Code -- Unfortunately, it was non-repeatable. Good morning. ---------- response 1 10/02 04.38 little t research I just got the same thing when condensing another lesson right after the backout at 4:35 AM. Todd ---------- response 2 10/02 09.46 hinton ssu I had the same message about 12:15 a.m. Unfortunately, it WAS repeatable (twice), but now it doesn't happen when I try the same condense. (I can furnish lesson name in a pnote, but since it is a test required of all our under- graduates, I would rather not list it here.) ndh ---------- response 3 10/02 11.41 rick mfl I also got the same thing last night, after the system reload for the non-prime-time version. ---------- response 4 10/02 15.11 kawell 0 I got the same message Tuesday night. Of course, on the second condense, it worked ok. Len ---------- response 5 10/02 20.00 clark lawyer perhaps a systems person could tell us all what this message means???? ---------- response 6 10/05 17.03 iezek ames System response please? ---------- response 7 10/06 18.34 bowery comm Obviously the argument for the -writec- they use for that 'call your instructor' page was out of range for the arguments because someone screwed up on the systems staff. ---------- note 43 position 10/02 09.46 sharon matha The education placement service called this morning with the following message. They asked that I pass it on. There is a full-time PLATO programmer position open at Parkland -- available immediately. Contact Mrs. Hood, 351-2220 Qualifications required: 3 references and 3 PLATO lessons you have programmed. ---------- note 53 -day- 10/02 15.47 ed w reading -day- command gives wrong result in AIDS after 12 noon.. please, please change it back again to at least ¬0t,time,4.1¬1 if not ¬0t,time,4.2¬1 ---------- response 1 10/02 16.07 jim pso changed ---------- note 55 char flag 10/02 19.46 mckeown com Relatively minor bug (in terms of effect on me):↓ If I have a particular charset loaded in my terminal when I monitor someone else, and they load a charset while I am monitoring, the loadable memory in my terminal receives the same charset the monitoree loads, BUT the charset flag is not changed in my terminal so that when I go into a lesson which does a load of the charset I had previously, I do not get a load. ---------- response 1 10/03 08.28 r lacoe mtc See AIDS command "chartst" ---------- response 2 10/03 09.15 friedman csa That's no help! ---------- response 3 10/03 09.36 olson ced Sure it is if he is looking at the -charset- commmand instead of -chartst-.. The -chartst- command checks to see if the flag is set and if not reloads the charset. ---------- response 4 10/03 09.41 halvorsen forestry The point is that the flag that -chartst- tests is not getting set to indicate that another charset has been loaded. So when he goes back into his lesson, his -chartst- will indicate that his charset is still loaded, when in fact his terminal now contains the charset of the monitoree. ---------- response 5 10/03 13.07 tenczar s this is one of those "bugs" that will probably never get fixed!...sorry ---------- note 63 term-step 10/03 09.39 mike b cornell I seem to recall that a while ago there was some talk about changes being made to -TERM- "step". These were to include, as I remember, allowing one to see common variables. Is this feature to be expected any time soon? I could certainly make use of it. Also, since continued -calc-s are now autobreakable, why is it still impossible to see embedded -branch-es. Being able to see the course of execution of a continued -calc- would be a real boon. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 1 10/03 11.26 galcher uimatha I don't see the relation between auto-breakable -calc-s and being able to look at embedded -branch-es. But possibly this will clear things up a bit. When you are in step mode, you are NOT looking at the actual code in your lesson, but a complied form of that code called a binary. It just so happens that a -branch- (same with -doto-)is compiled the same way as a -calc- statement (more or less) so PLATO only knows that it is somewhere in a -calc- when it actually is executing a TUTOR -branch-. But it would be nice to be able to see which LABEL (if any) you are currently at in the same manner you can see the current base and main units. Bill ---------- note 67 last edit 10/03 11.54 michael english The SHIFT/NEXT and SHIFT/BACK options in the editor confuse the last block edited pointer; edit A, SHIFT/NEXT to B, edit B, press BACK causes A to be listed as last block edited. ---------- response 1 10/03 12.38 midden p Are you sure about this? Seems to work alright for me. Marshall Midden ---------- response 2 10/03 12.58 michael english Last block edited, not last block entered. Error occurs consistently on SHIFT/NEXT block skipping, not at all on SHIFT/BACK. ---------- response 3 10/03 13.52 midden p Oh, I thought there was something wrong! That option works on the last edited time of the blocks. As that is only stored to the minute, and -next1-/-back1- can be done in much less than a minute... that is why it does as it does. If you go into block a and edit something, press -back- then go into block b, edit something and exit from the block, the same thing will happen...(unless your minute runs out first)... Marshall Midden ---------- response 4 10/03 14.28 michael english Thanks for explanation, Marshall. ---------- note 74 mrouter er 10/03 14.39 oberpriller arizona hmmmm... a student (on mrouter) tried to get into a lesson, and there was not enough ecs. he got the usual page, and when i cleared the space for him in ecs, he "press NEXT to try again". THAT SIGNED HIM OFF!!!! i tried it again, and it was repeatable!!! gorp!! dave ---------- note 75 job 10/03 16.34 siegel peer CAI Specialist: Computer-based Education Research Laboratory. To design ¬+ evaluate a computerized education system for adult inmates. Qualifications: Extensive experience in curriculum design; adult basic education; anthropological, sociolog- ical, or political sci. field work; programmed instruction; direct experience in classroom instruction; administrative ability; and experience with the PLATO system. Start immediately; 3/4 time position; application cut-off is Oct. 11th. Contact Martin Siegel, CERL for more details (siegel/peer via p-note). Minority candidates are especially welcomed! ---------- response 1 10/04 00.21 fay o "...shall not discriminate against applicant on the basis of race, religion or sex..." Doesn't sound to me as though you intend to treat _all_ applicants equally. If you were, there would be no need to worry about the applicants' membership in some "minority" group! ---------- response 2 10/04 11.48 siegel peer In fact, it is the university's policy to actively recruit minority candidates. ---------- response 3 10/04 14.42 white uimatha Probably only till the required ratios are reached. ---------- response 4 10/04 16.59 parrello uimatha At which point we will be able to furnish proof that we don't discriminate. ---------- response 5 10/05 01.08 fay 0 (a) My first response was not, of course, directed at Marty of PEER but at the policies they must practice which are imposed by others. (b) Until the required ratios are reached and "it can be proven that discrimination no longer exists" what is the result? That is, is there not (ugh) "reverse" discrimination? (c) If two equally qualified candidates are tied for the job, and one is a member of a "minority" by what criteria will the choice be made? A coin toss would obviously be the fairset way. (d) Then again, I happen to think bussing is about the worst way the gov't could have attempted to end discrimination in the schools, so maybe you shouldn't pay any attention to my rantings. ---------- response 6 10/05 16.42 lombardo ed All things being equal, there isn't any equal. Why bother, in the end the people that are hired to any position are so hired because of some bias, either good or bad. There ain't no such animal as objective hiring. Sometimes I wish I had been born a mixture of every minority then maybe I could find a decent job...probably wouldn't have to be qualified either, I could be a multi-purpose minority, maybe even certified by the Feds to satisfy more than one persons position, could qualify for a whole bunch... ---------- note 76 print use 10/04 00.15 rick mfl Until the recent modification to the -use- command, it was possible to see the name of the lesson referred to if a -use- command appeared in the lesson. Since the change, the lesson name does not appear in the source code, and no method is provided for seeing the name of the lesson -use-d. It would be very handy if the -use-d lesson's name would appear somewhere on the printout. ---------- response 1 10/04 01.11 al mfl *list info ---------- response 2 10/04 10.55 rick mfl *list info gives the following information: Lesson name Starting date Last edited on (date) at (time) by (name) of course (course) at site (site), station (station) Author name Department Telephone number Discipline Grade level Description of lesson The above is straight off of a printout I got yesterday evening. (Notice the lack of a -use- reference.) While we're on the subject, how about changing "discipline" to "subject matter" and "grade level" to "intended audience" so that the print will match the lesson's data page? ---------- response 3 10/04 12.15 friedman csa Someone needs to update the *list program to match the recent changes to the data page....the two have not been kept "in step". ---------- response 4 10/04 19.43 blomme s True--thanks for the notes, we will try to get the print of the into (all of it) back in step with the system. ---------- note 79 nova 10/04 10.19 staatse park Where can I find info on the NOVA microcomputer. I need both hardware and software information, perferably a lesson if there is one,and its current role in upper air observation. thanks ---------- response 1 10/04 22.14 al mflu Lesson micronotes is a general notes file for those people interested in microcomputers. ---------- response 2 10/05 05.51 oberpriller arizona The Steward Observatory, associated with the U of Arizona, is using several NOVA's as immediate data storage and reduction computers right at the telescope. The data is stored on punch tape for late analysis on one of the university computers, while the NOVA allows the working astronomer to see some preliminary results while he is still working. I am not familiar with the hardware or the software, however, several friends of mine are deeply involved in the NOVA project. If you would like any more info, or would like to be put in touch with someone here who is working on the project, contact me in p-notes. dave ---------- response 3 10/06 08.05 deiss phar You're best bet is to call a sales rep. from Data General Corp. There is probably one in Chicago. ---------- note 83 retn com 10/04 13.53 michael english Is there any hope of being able to cause common to be re- turned to disk under program control? The checkpoint feature is insufficient because I don't want to return it to disk every eight minutes, only after certain critical points in the program. ---------- note 86 tnx 10/04 15.40 michael english Being able to go from the condense error page to the first "not found" unit reference is much appreciated. Thanks. ---------- response 1 10/04 15.42 fritz ames Indeed it is! ---------- note 94 infinit cc 10/05 16.25 r swallow hum Would it be possible to calculate ¬p to the 20th digit using the systems calculator? Is there a way I can recieve any answer in more than ten digits? It certainly would be helpful if a person could denote one variable to be able to hold more than 10 digits. Here is an example of what I want to do: calc v1‎sqrt2 But I want to calculate it to the 50th digit. Would it be possible to set up a command called denote? The denote command would cram all the variables in part of the tag into one single variable e.g.,denote v1‎v2,v3,v4,v5 This would allow you to calculate something then bring it to the 50th digit. (since v1 is really v1,2,3,4,and 5 thanks to the denote command) By doing this, you would be able to calculate ¬p to as much as the 100th digit, Personally, I think that there are many authors that would like to be able to do this. Doug. ---------- response 1 10/05 17.06 kawell 0 Hmmmmm. You really should learn exactly how computers store numbers. Look into the calculational section of AIDS, under a topic called " Bits and Bytes". What you suggest is nearly impossible on this machine. Len ---------- response 2 10/05 22.00 al mflu Get a hold of an IBM 1401. Numbers on that machine could be of any length. Everything was in decimal. Alan ---------- response 3 10/06 05.51 koning csstaff Why is this note in Help notes as well as General notes???? ---------- response 4 10/06 08.19 avner s Also, some of the answers to this question are less than helpful (in fact, erroneous). 48-bit precision is far in excess of the needs of most CBE applications. Hence, we have no standard procedure for multiple-precision. However, the baisc calc features are more than sufficient for anyone desiring to add them to their own code for special purposes. Al Avner ---------- response 5 10/06 08.51 schreiner csa Our BASIC compiler/interpreter actually blocks out the last 12 bits of each data item (i.e., of a 60 bit CDC word, we use only the first 48 bits, of those then the last 36 are the fractional part), and that is adaequate for numerical applications in calculus. ---------- response 6 10/06 09.33 b sherwood s PLEASE, "Doug", get your own sign-on record. Do not sign in under the well-known name of Ron Swallow. I had been puzzled in the past by questions asked by "r swallow", since the questions did not seem the kind of questions he would ask. Now I understand that he was not the person asking the questions. ---------- note 98 angry 10/05 20.12 lekas cs196 Tonight a friend of mine and I were doing serious work in 165 CERL when we were asked to leave to make room for students. After I signed off I noticed that there were two students sitting at adjacent terminals on calculus interterminal communication. The site directer should check for anyone on "game" lessons before kicking people off who are doing serious work. ---------- response 1 10/05 20.23 k gorey research Ahem. Students have first priority on this system, and if you have a complaint about the calculus talk, then you should get in touch with the head of uimatha. If these students are in a bonified game, then the operator usually deletes them first. How about taking this one up with the operator personally, since he can explain this much better than I can. Kevin ---------- response 2 10/06 05.54 koning csstaff How about changing the priority rule to: 1) Students working 2) Authors working 3) Students playing 4) Authors playing That would be more reasonable, at least if the current situation has ¬$2 and 3 reversed, as the previous note seems to indicate... ¬↑ˇP¬≤↑ˇK ---------- response 3 10/06 09.04 schreiner csa I have somewhat 'encouraged' a more business-oriented use of 'calctalk'. Please, do not classify it as a game at this point. ---------- response 4 10/06 09.41 michael english Personally, if an instructor has reserved a block of time and terminals for his students, I would think that it is nobody else's business (except possibly the department's) what lessons he allows his students to use. ---------- response 5 10/06 11.01 harkrader o Last night, a strange problem arose... The Accounting students have a test very soon, therefore they wanted to get in some time on PLATO. It seems that the air-conditioning at FLB was on the blink, and they all came to CERL. Fine. But, since it was Dad's day and all, there were very few open terminals. So, the operator sent the usual message: NO games. Then, he went thru the site and told all gamers to leave. Still, there weren't enough terminals. So, he asked authors if they would yield their terminals. The accy students had time reserved at FLB, so, in my view, it was only fitting that they be allowed to complete their work. It is unfortunate that some working authors had to leave, but students do have priority. ALL gamers, authors/students/multiples, were asked to leave. Please, talk to the operator if you are in need of a terminal for work. Thanks... ---------- note 109 policy 10/06 09.39 olson ced Has there been any policy stated about putting small items for sale in these general notes? Thanks much.... ---------- response 1 10/06 09.43 michael english Please don't do it in GENERAL (=ARCHIVAL) notes. HELP notes, maybe..... ---------- response 2 10/06 10.41 zark cornell god forbid! help notes are bad enough as it is, please put things like want ads in 'pad' if you must put them in at all... ---------- response 3 10/07 09.56 judy pso My one-and-only ad in "pad" brought excellent results! ---------- response 4 10/07 09.59 olson ced I got into -pad- but it doesn't say how to write a note. I tried everything I could think of without success. Any help...... ---------- response 5 10/07 12.23 zark cornell try pressing the HELP key when you get into the lesson... everything is explained there. ---------- note 112 labels 10/06 10.20 little buddy matha editing options to go forward and backward to the nearest statement label would be very nice. LB ---------- response 1 10/06 11.35 warner iu Forward, try typing "C1"... the "c" option looks only at as much of the commmand field as you type in, i.e. typing "Cdo" gets you all do, dot, doto, etc. commands. Thus if you remember the number with which your label begins (1 in most cases) "C1" will get you to any label that starts with 1. ---------- response 2 10/06 17.05 michael cornell But the whole point is that he wants to go to the next statement label WHATEVER it starts with (right?)! ---------- response 3 10/07 12.44 little buddy matha you bet LB ---------- note 113 dset thnx 10/06 10.30 berger mfl Thanks for fixing the codeword problem with datasets - this will save many hours of fruitless lesson debugging for me! ---------- note 117 available 10/06 12.57 obrien uicc Part Time Consultant Available: Plato experience since Plato III, very familiar with TUTOR and the vagaries of the system. Acted as professional consultant with UICC site for two years. Competent in physics and math, have done consultations on medical uses of Plato. Respond by pnote to "obrien" of "uicc". ---------- note 118 *endlesson 10/06 13.40 ld francis mtc how can one have a student leave a lesson and return to the system router without (a) marking the lesson as completed or (b) giving the student the message--confusing to him---that he hasnt completed the lesson and he can return to it. 1. end lesson, jumpouts to router all satisfy (b) but not (a) 2. press stop1 is good for (a) but not (b). If there is not a clean way to do this, do others suffer from the lack of this facility? ---------- response 1 10/06 14.11 jmk pso Have you investigated the effect of a "lesson no end" command? ---------- response 2 10/06 14.20 chabay chem lesson noend (lesson will be marked with a "+" on the router index page.) ---------- response 3 10/06 15.46 halvorsen forestry I have a "lesson noend" in the ieu of one of my lessons. Any way I exit from the lesson back to the system router, (via jumpout q or end lesson) I _cannot_ get the "+" to appear next to the lesson on the router index. Why doesn't this work? ---------- response 4 10/06 18.23 chabay chem Which system router are you using? (The "+" only appears in "mrouter".) ---------- note 119 ecs delete 10/06 13.46 fritz ames I have been deleted from my lessons several times today. While I understand ECS is tight and authors are liable to get deleted, etc, shouldn't there be a message of some sort to tell you that ECS is tight and you are being deleted? I would think it would be quite unsettling to someone unfamiliar to the system to suddenly be bounced to the author mode page with no indication as to what happened. ---------- response 1 10/06 13.55 silver ve I guess that people became so accustomed to this kind of thing last year that no explanation was considered necessary. Adding such an explanation would, in theory, add to the size of the system and lesson the amount of room available for lessons, too. ---------- response 2 10/06 13.59 fritz ames But you must remember there are a lot of people on now that weren't around for the fun and games last year... ---------- response 3 10/06 14.01 hinton ssu I don't think it takes _too_ long to get accustomed to it, though the first time is is very disconcerting. However, I think the message to _students_, when they can't get in be- cause of ECS, is not very clear to most of them, and it would save a lot of explaining if something could be con- cocted which used no jargon and just told them that there was too much going on... ndh ---------- response 4 10/06 14.13 silver ve The latter should be handled by one's router, not the sys- tem, because the same message won't work with all ages of user. I don't know what the system router does. I do know that no matter what the message is, it will baffle some of your students. The only good solution is NO student deletions! Or offer each deleted student a free (root?) beer courtesy of your site director... ---------- response 5 10/06 17.14 battenberg css could we have a systems responce??? thanks---- rex-- also this is the jist of the answer i want to help note 507 responce 6 thanksrex---the king of hearts ---------- response 6 10/07 03.25 koning csstaff As far as the suggestion of using up too much space with a feature like this: wouldn't it simply involve the out- putting of one or two lines of text (preceded by full erase) which would take (my layman's guess, of course) about 10 words for the text and another 5 or so for the call to the system I/O routine? I don't think that is too much, consi- dering how big Plato itself is... ¬↑ˇP¬≤↑ˇK ---------- note 127 *stactive* 10/06 16.56 kimble ustaf I suspect that this request has been made before, but I'll make it again: Access to a system variable such as *stactive* that would be the number of active terminals on a logical site would be quite useful. This variable, in conjunction with *muse* and *mallot*, would allow a better picture of terminal usage at a site than is now possible. It seems likely that this information is there somewhere already; could it be made available to users? ---------- response 1 10/06 17.00 michael english It would be useless unless you also had a variable that told you how many terminals were physically connected to a logical site. ---------- response 2 10/06 18.18 mark d csa So have an 'sallot' and an 'suse' command... There must be something like this at the system level for statistics, why not make it available to users. ---------- response 3 10/07 08.04 kimble ustaf Yes, that would be even more flexible. But even just *stactive* (or whatever) would still be useful, since I would already know how many terminals are included in the logical sites that I'm concerned with. ---------- note 137 staff ‎ + 10/07 08.51 deiss phar Thanks to those who implemented the file manipulation scheme for site directors. ---------- note 138 csolink0 10/07 09.26 pgl research A preliminary link between PLATO and CSO's IBM 360/75 has been established at the Illinois Street Residence halls. Those individuals interested in using this facility should contact Paul Lamprinos at: Room 365 C.E.R.L., phone= 3-6500 or 3-6501 Special thanks should go to the College of Pharmacy (course UIMC) for contibuting the necessary equipment. ---------- note 141 microwave 10/07 10.43 stan smith chem With the loss of the microwave link to classrooms, students, with good reason, left. However, when the microwave was turned on again, the terminals were, of course, still signed on under the records of the students who had long since left. ---------- response 1 10/07 12.44 berger mfl We called CERL from the language lab and had someone back out our entire site - perhaps each microwave site should have a dial-up or hard-wired terminal. ---------- note 142 eras/where 10/07 12.03 john r reading -where- no longer seems to be reset after an -erase n- until the timeslice. several people agree that this is a new and undocumented 'feature'. naturally, it will wreak havoc with code of the form. erase 10 at where-10 write something I don't have much occasion to use such code, so maybe the feature isn't new. systems? ---------- response 1 10/07 12.09 b sherwood s I think that it has always been that way, which does not however justify it. Shouldn't it be changed? Also, it has been pointed out that a full-screen erase sets the terminal mode to "write" but does not change system variable "mode". Shouldn't a full-screen erase restore whatever mode was current before the erase? Comments? ---------- response 2 10/07 12.12 michael english 1 vote yes on both counts. ---------- response 3 10/07 13.01 jones mcl As the person who started this mess in help notes: The new interaction of erase and unit with mode seems best to me: Whenever the screen is fully erased, you are returned to mode write (mode erase won't show up, and mode rewrite being the same as write in that case). On the other hand, after an erase with a tag, in which case only part of the screen is erased, the mode stays the same, as it is still useful. One vote to leave the erase/mode interaction the same!!!!! On the other hand, I have never seen much logic in the interaction of erase and unit with where. It might make good sense to have where go to some fixed location after a full screen erase, like 510, so that for long text sequences, no ats would be needed. after an erase with a tag, the current scheme of leaving where at the left end of the erased block is the best, it is useful this way. ---------- response 4 10/07 13.12 john r reading Bruce: At least the following people believe that -where- has traditionally been updated immediately after a selective erase: John Risken Celia Davis Jim Kraatz Bob Yeager Gary Michael AIDS states that -where- is updated at the end of each line of code. -showa- has always been talked about as being the only real anomaly in the updating of where. If all this changed, when did it change? ---------- response 5 10/07 15.14 midden p 1) Full screen erases probably should keep the last mode. Example for full screen erase and mode: unit that does some animation for example in mode write, using full screen erases. Person changes to mode erase. It would be rediculous for the unit to plot the same thing in mode erase as in mode write. (does make sense doesn't it?) 2) Should where be updated after erase n? Seems to be the best cleanup. (also it has always worked as is now) Example for erase n: at 1010 write TEXT= showa n123,n99 pause at 1010 erase 5 erase n99 Marshall Midden ---------- response 6 10/07 20.14 blomme s Those interested could see OLD HELP NOTE 281 of 9/23 labeled "no erase" for a previous discussion of this. The system variable "where" is not updated by as -erase- command; it seems to me that it SHOULD be, but of course the possible impact on existing lessons must be considered. As regards a full screen erase, that has generally been regarded as a point of re- starting things, which would naturally mean being in write mode--changing this now would seem likely to have quite a variety of repercussions. ---------- response 7 10/08 21.26 j wilson unidel Over two years ago, Bruce Sherwood and I observed that erase was not updating where, and he wrote a general note saying that this would be fixed unless he heard objections regarding existing lessons. To the best of my recollection, the change was then made. ---------- note 148 no ecs 10/07 13.00 berger mfl Just now - we were 20,000 words under our BASE allotment, 110,000 words under our current allotment, and got the following message: "You are within your site allotment, but there is no ECS available..." ---------- response 1 10/07 13.01 pete faa We couldn't have had better timing.....see the next note. Pete ---------- note 149 site ecs 10/07 13.00 pete faa Would someone please tell me why the system goes through the wasted effort of supplying site ECS availability vs. ECS being used. I have been trying to condense a lesson with 1400 words for the past 10 minutes and I keep getting told I am within site allocations but there isn't any ECS available. Every time I check our site we have >235k allotted and are using <157k. What gives???? Pete ---------- response 1 10/07 13.06 golden s The site ECS above the base allotment is a fiction! It works when not all ECS is consumed, but not when we are really out. ---------- response 2 10/07 13.08 parrello mfl Yeah, but even when we're under the base allotment we can't get in. Just happened to me again: 10,000 words under the BASE allotment and got the "no ecs" message. ---------- response 3 10/07 13.10 berger mfl In fact - we couldn't even condense a lesson under 100 words. ---------- response 4 10/07 13.24 pete faa Where do we find the BASE allottment figure? Pete ---------- response 5 10/07 13.39 kaufman uimc The base ECS allotment is only available to people with the site codeword to lesson site. Bill Golden, This is the first time I ever heard that the ECS allocation is a fiction and that only the base figure counts. If, in fact, only the base figure counts, why not make that figure available thru the E option and destroy that other number. Joe Kaufman ---------- response 6 10/07 13.43 guerra uimc The least you could do is not count these "aborted" condenses as part of my day's condenses in the condense- priority algorithm, because I keep "trying again", as the message suggests, but I keep going down in condense priority, even though I haven't actually "condensed" anything. ---------- response 7 10/07 13.49 volpe mfl Is anyone checking on why we can't condense ANYTHING over here (is it just here [FLB], or is it everywhere)? tom volpe ---------- response 8 10/07 14.26 whisenhunt siu EVERYWHERE! I looked at the ECS page for site 0 and found that all the authors were using only 1500 words of ECS, so nobody is condensing anything. GW ---------- response 9 10/07 16.24 meers wright Just as a rule of thumb, the base allotment is about 1375 words per terminal at the logical site. ---------- response 10 10/07 17.35 kaufman uimc I just checked our base allotment. It is 18,000 words for 12 terminals or 1,500 words/terminal. Joe Kaufman ---------- response 11 10/08 13.06 meers wright Which is why I said 'about'... Our base was only 33000 for 24 terminals when I checked... ---------- note 156 branching 10/07 13.23 bl abbott mtc It would be helpful, if when branching to have as an added option to -branch- a tag to allow skipping the next n commands, i.e. branch *+4 $$would branch ahead 4 commands branch *-2 $$would branch back 2 commands branch i=1,*+2,x $$would branch ahead 2 commands at where $$ to the -arrow- if i equaled 1 erase 5 $$and erase if not arrow 1812 This would be helpful and more convient than sticking in little branching flags all over the program. I hope you give it some consideration. ---------- response 1 10/07 13.33 brand matha what would happen if you forget bout the branch and stuck another command in there? Or there was a system conversion to get rid of the *gork* command? Or making one small change turns out to be major cause you have to change 10 to the nth branches? Or just changing a *write* for that matter? ---------- response 2 10/07 14.05 whisenhunt siu How about a 'branchs' command that would skip one line of code, if the condition was met. Example: branchs n1=8 zero n1 at 1010 show n1 Any thoughts? GW ---------- response 3 10/07 14.24 jim g reading This is similar to the "skip" command which was proposed a long time ago (after someone saw an HP demo). Most of the arguments against it then were just reiterated by Brand. Rick Blomme had a couple more which had to do with execution of the "skip" by the system. Besides the aforementioned arguments I would like to add, "What about the poor person who has to try to decipher "skip coding" after you are gone?" ---------- response 4 10/07 16.39 b sherwood s Amen. Relative addressing of this kind makes for all kinds of trouble. A different way to get the same thing, but without these bad side effects, is the IF...THEN...ELSE kinds of constructions in many languages. So far we have not spent a lot of effort thinking how to mesh such constructions with TUTOR, which presently does not have indentation of lines, a feature almost essential for such constructions to be really useful. ---------- response 5 10/07 16.52 jones mcl AMENˆ2 Tutor is not supposed to develop into an assembler language. All of the above arguments have been covered many times in years past with programmer efficiency studies and such, and in general, the results favor the use of symbolic labels over relative addresses, and IF THEN ELSE constructs over labels. jones ---------- response 6 10/07 18.28 p mast p The closest thing TUTOR has to an IF-THEN-ELSE is perhaps the construction that is implied by the simplest forms of sentence judging. Thus, the tutor code: answer dog write Very good! answer cat write Excellent! has the implied form: IF studentans='dog' THEN write Very good! judge ok ELSE IF studentans='cat' THEN write Excellent! judge ok ELSE judge no An explicit IF-THEN-ELSE might have made judging more comprehensible for a few special (complex) examples, but TUTOR's implicit way is superior in most cases. ---------- response 7 10/08 03.14 koning csstaff Even in assembly language programming relative adressing is considered undesirable!!! Why put them in Tutor then? ---------- response 8 10/08 08.03 mont csa re response 6 I agree that TUTOR's way is superior as long as one of the programmer's goals is to write incomprehensible code. Others tend to think that code should be understandable and selfdocumenting without the reader having to understand a few hundred TUTOR conventions. ---------- response 9 10/08 08.25 schreiner csa AMENˆ3. And rumor has it that code of the form branch condition,1then,1else 1then THEN part branch 1fi 1else ELSE part 1fi has actually been written. Which reminds me of the question 'What would a certain Dutch programmer do if stranded on an island together with a FORTRAN compiler?' Answer: he would still practice structured programming, but he would no longer create structured programs... I.e., one can even write clean code in TUTOR, but one is certainly not encouraged by the language... ---------- response 10 10/08 17.43 embley csa Schreiner's comments are good, but why not make it easier to write structured code in TUTOR? I suggest the following syntax: if [ then ] . . (TUTOR statements in _then_ part) else . . (TUTOR statements in _else_ part) . endif The _else_ part is optional. ---------- note 166 ECS 10/07 15.36 b sherwood s We are aware as you are that there are some severe problems with ECS. We are experiencing large swings in ECS usage patterns, and we are seeing more terminals running in the afternoon. The basic problem is that we are trying to "give out more ECS than we have", in the sense that the sum of the individual site allocations is more than the total amount of ECS available. (The !base" allocations DO total to the amount available, but the instantaneous allotments can be higher.) As first aid, we are running essentially at the base allocations when there are large numbers of terminals running. We are studying possible improvements. ---------- response 1 10/07 16.08 deiss phar I was trying to explain what was happening to someone at our site, and it seems to me that if I am right it bears repeat- ing given the widespread confusion. If the ecs load for the whole system is under 100:, then the system allows people to use more ecs at their sites than they are actually guaranteed. Since the system does not know who is going to jump in and try to use the unused ecs first, it increases everyones site allotment so that they all get a shot at it. This works fine if (as Bruce stated) there are no drastic and rapid swings in the ecs load. If that does happen, the following occurs... ---------- response 2 10/07 16.18 deiss phar For example if all of a sudden 200 students sit down and start running lessons to take up the slack in their site's temporarily large allotment, they quickly take up not only the ecs their site was guaranteed but the temporary excess they were allowed as a result of overall system underload. If a latecomer walks in and signs onto a site that is not using all of its ecs, he can't delete students from the ecs they have taken over. Since they were taking the ecs he was not using in the first place, he may not even be able to get what he was guaranteed. The only reasonable solution to the whole dilemma would seem to be to improve the algorithm that determines when to and how much ecs to "reallocate" to users above their base allotments. That's what they are attempting now. ---------- response 3 10/07 16.24 fritz ames Is this what causes deletions from such lessons as syslib and edit?? I was talking to a friend a while ago. He was describing how he had entered AIDS from the editor, pressed NEXT1, and gotten deleted THERE! Twice while we were talking, zammo. End of talk. I suppose it's possible we could have bumped STOP1 or BACK1 whilst we were talking, but I doubt it.. especially the second time! Isn't syslib supposed to be a non- deletable lesson? ---------- response 4 10/07 16.28 deiss phar I'm not sure but I think that is a whole nother can o worms. ---------- response 5 10/07 17.07 sherman mcl In any case, how do you explain authors receiving the "no ecs" message upon condensing lessons less than 1500 words. I thought we were guarenteed at least 1500 words of ecs as an author (or 1350 at least). I even got the message when i tried condensing a lesson with no code at all in it (empty first block, no other blocks)!! Larry Sherman ---------- response 6 10/07 17.32 bruce iehl mtc Would a whole 30 terminal site signing-out for a break produce the kinds of fluctuations that are causing problems?(40k-60k) Would it help our situation if we stager breaks or leave terminals signed-in? ---------- response 7 10/07 17.59 golden s We really do not have any idea what caused the problem. Yesterday we ran 500 terminals with little trouble. Today 370 terminals ate up all the ECS and we couldn't recover until the allotments were manually reduced. I don't think the people at Chanute caused it. ---------- note 172 van moved 10/07 16.29 fritz ames The Ultimate Character Generator formerly in lesson "van" has been moved to lesson "bigchar". All comments and/or suggestions should go to parrello/uimatha, bowery/comm, or fritz/ames. ---------- note 174 california 10/07 16.51 crooks siu Could someone please tell me where 'california' went? I found it useful for some workspace. ---------- response 1 10/07 16.59 charlie mathw See note ¬$569 in old help notes. ---------- note 180 antimatter 10/07 17.57 johnston ssu Any lesson saround about antimatter? ---------- response 1 10/07 18.07 michael english I've seen a lot of non-material lessons..... ---------- response 2 10/07 19.50 dave fuller uimc Doesn't this belong in HELP notes? ---------- response 3 10/07 20.26 johnston ssu Got me...I've never seen any policy distinguishing the two. I'd always thought help notes were more for finding out about exec errors, TUTOR code and things like that. Nevertheless, it is here, and I would like an answer to it rather than criticisms as to knowing the place of things. ---------- response 4 10/07 20.39 dave fuller uimc Briefly, general notes are archival, and are kept virtually forever. If you think that your comment would be of use to someone in the near/far future, save it here. If you are inquiring about something that might not be of interest past a month or so, put it in help notes so the space can be recycled. True, the names are extremely misleading, but work is supposed to be in progress to relieve the present situation. To refer to your original question, I don't know offhand of any lessons fitting your request. You might query Bruce Sherwood (b sherwood of phys) to obtain any possible leads to such a lesson/set of lessons. D. Fuller ---------- response 5 10/07 21.39 johnston ssu Much appreciated. I thought that _both_ help and general notes were permanently stored. ---------- response 6 10/07 21.57 fumento pso Information regarding the definition of HELP and GENERAL notes may be found by reading the help pages accessed from the main index of this notes lesson. ---------- response 7 10/09 11.41 shirer s I have a lesson on sub-nuclear particles which includes anti-particles. If you are interested, send me a personal note....I am not on the system regularly so don't expect a rush answer. don shirer ---------- note 190 zdswpb 10/08 01.51 tamar cerlcc The defines in 'qadump' gave an error after the conversion of the system word 'zdswpb' to 'zdswpr'. It got fixed with a system programer's help by changing it back to the old word with the promise to run another conversion after the problem will be solved. It worked alright for 1 day. On the version now (see below) the old word was found as an error again and it looks like someone that used the program destroyed all his data. The system version is: assembled completly 10/7/75 21.34.55 last change 10/7/75 21.34.55 ---------- response 1 10/08 13.46 rader s I see there should have been more discussion of what you were doing with the lesson. We were, of course, first interested in finding out how there was a system problem. My apologies--I hope that a file backup will help your user. See me if you are still having problems with the program. The system problem was rather devious, and has undoubtedly caused peculiar condense errors for a long time. We appreciated the problem being brought to our attention. ---------- response 2 10/08 17.19 tamar cerlcc I want to add that the last error wasn't in prime time so it is realy the user responsibility to look at condence errors. (I am waiting for the good times when we will have a flag set to tell that there are condence errors...) ---------- note 191 skipping 10/08 03.10 warrens uw Was in OLD GEN NOTES number 338 9/25. I went from response 4 straight to the index grid via the LAB key, (this also did not display response number 5, which was listed as existing on the grid page.) Was repeatable. Thanks RW ---------- response 1 10/08 08.38 jones mcl this happened to me from general notes a couple times yesterday. I thought that I might have been hitting back instead of lab, but one time it happened, I (following traditional bad typing practice) looked at my fingers when it happened. Seems to be a not uncommon fluke in the current NOTES. ---------- response 2 10/08 14.03 koning csstaff One possibility is a bad keyset which generates multiple characters for a single keypress...≤≤≤¬↑ˇP¬≤↑ˇK ---------- response 3 10/08 14.36 perry uw I doubt it, as I use the same keyset during the day. ---------- note 193 fixes 10/08 03.23 blomme s In case no one has noticed, the positioning and length of the answer mark-up (like underlining of mis-spelled words) has been fixed so that it should be done correctly in almost all cases, including cases where -bump-s and -put-s have been used. Also, the info available via the print directive: *list info has been updated so that it includes info recently added and so that its format and wording corresponds to that currently used in the editor. (This new version of the printer may not be in normal use for a few days yet, however.) ---------- response 1 10/08 09.08 friedman csa Thanks for mentioning the answer markup fix! I've got some judging that has a -specs nomark- in it now; maybe I can take it out. Both the fix and the announcement are much apprreciated. ---------- response 2 10/08 10.22 maggs law The new marking is really nice. It fixes my Russian language lessons which do all sorts of strange things with fonts. ---------- response 3 10/08 11.38 berger mfl Rick, that's an enormous help to the language lab. ---------- note 198 error 10/08 09.30 wv gage mtc While inserting text in ID mode received. Execution Error in lesson edit 2 station output buffer full. ---------- note 199 change 10/08 10.21 maggs law When commands are changed by the system, for instance, the change of start to cstart, no changes are made to change commands, thus change start to xyz is not changed. Shouldn't change command tags be changed in future system command changes? Second point: I am now left with a change for a command "ansva." I can't find from aids what that has been replaced by. If you don't change change commands, you should leave the old command in aids with a reference to the new ones. Third: I realize that one uses change commands at one's own risk so I may be asking too much. ---------- response 1 10/08 10.37 golden s -asnva- became -exactv-. The changes are listed in system features note 74. But, we should try to change the change command tags as well as the *list cases. ---------- response 2 10/08 10.40 jim pso the references remain in AIDS eor ¬; a month. then the old names go away. i assumed (maybe incorrectly) during that time everyone should read new system feature NOTES and have made ¬+ tested lessons which are affected by such changes to TUTOR. ---------- response 3 10/08 10.46 chabay chem Would it be appropriate for AIDS to maintain a list of all old-new command pairs in some dark, cobwebby corner? ---------- response 4 10/08 11.17 maggs law It seems to me that either aids should have some method of getting to the commands, or that the long promised index to new systems features notes should be finally be delivered. Meanwhile, it should not be surprising that authors rely on the statement in new system features that a system conversion has been done and do not check their "finished" lessons. Pending the development of a fool-proof system change mechanism, perhaps new systems features notes or aids should list those instances in which system command changes fail. ---------- response 5 10/08 17.50 blomme s Use of the -change- command is probably likely to remain something of a risk to the user when various system modifications and conversions are made. We will try to account for some of the simple cases (like just a command name change) in the future. ---------- response 6 10/15 09.52 jim schuyler nuc One month is too short a time. What happens when somebody at FSU or Georgia runs across an ANSVA command in an old lesson, and tries to look it up on U of I AIDS? There are loads of "old" lessons out there... It would be best to keep notes on old commands and what they've been changed to for at least a year! ---------- note 205 did u know 10/08 11.36 elise and steve skill Elise: Steve, did you read note ¬$76? Steve: Yes. Do you know anything about Cerl's recruitment and hiring policy? Elise: The U of I's policy is to "recruit" minorities. However, hiring seems to be another story. During my 3-4 yr affiliation with CERL, I have never seen nor met any Blacks that were hired at the lab. Steve: Yeah, me either. How many paid Black authors, admin- istrators, repairmen, system engineers, clerks, consultants, etc. at CERL? Elise: I give . How many? continued in first response...... ---------- response 1 10/08 11.38 elise and steve skill Steve: I don't know! But, look at CERL's Community College Project as an example of recruiting vs hiring. Elise: And to think the majority of the students the Comm. College group serves are indeed minorities. Steve: Well you know the 'ole saying: "Just 'cause we have to≤≤≤≤≤≤ recruit 'em we don't gotta hire 'em"!!!! Elise: Sigh! Elise Gorun Steve Robinson Site Directors, Chicago Urban Skills Institute Chicago City Colleges p.s. there's a special note for you,"multi-purpose" lombardo. ---------- response 2 10/08 13.50 berger mfl OF course, elise and steve, if you think there has been discrimination because of race, color, creed, or national orgin, you can bring a suit against the violator. ---------- response 3 10/08 15.46 b parrello med But it's much more fun to throw out insults. ---------- response 4 10/08 16.01 hinton ssu What particularly gets me is the series of implications, which leave a specific impression about CERL's hiring policy without citing a single fact. This subject is too important for such rhetorical trickery. If these persons have facts, they should make them known : and in the way and place which will be useful, not in some cutesy dialog. And even if they have any accurate employment statistics, do they have any access to documentation on 'good faith search' for personnel ? The whole question is too legally and morally important for game-playing. ndh ---------- response 5 10/08 20.55 golden pso The University administration and the administration of this lab are very sincere in their desire to find female and minority staff members. Of course not all directors and department heads are equally devoted to reducing the disproportionate share of good jobs held by white males, but the general feeling is one with which you should be comfortable. We don't know how to reach minorities! Our efforts have regularly failed. Any help you can provide will be more than welcome. This university has been threatened with the loss of very large sums of money if the problem isn't solved. Even if you don't trust our intentions, (I think you should.). you can be sure that we will be trying to save those absolutely necessary Federal funds. ---------- response 6 10/08 22.44 loitz acoustic Just for curiosity about two weeks ago an operator job was open. Could Mr. Rader give any specifics as to the number of 'minorities that applied for it? I think this information will back up Mr. Golden's last comment about the difficult task involved here. I would guess very few of these minorities applied. ---------- response 7 10/09 14.00 elise and steve skill of the responses received via talk, most stated¬D why should persons(females and minorities) without experience be hired ....transmitting the feeling that if you are a minority you are without experience or skills. they always referred to tutor experience. how about the jobs that require little or no knowledge of tutor: subj. matter specialists, test and measurement specialists, statistical specialists, coordinators of some cerl groups, ...or jobs (full or pt time) where the time necessary to train is minimal (mostly OJT): coder ,operator,etc. most never referred to these..only to authors,progs,systs,etc. ---------- response 8 10/09 14.05 elise and steve skill the dialog was a fair reproduction of our exchange after reading the responses of note ¬$76. it indicates that a trip around the lab could(if you wanted to give it a thought) bring up questions about cerl/u of i and minorities. if one assumes that plato is neutral factor, then the credit,responsibility or blame lies not only with those responsible for recruitment, but also those responsible for hiring,administrating,coordinating,working for and with cerl/u of i. we did not intent to insult nor place the blame. we wanted to point out an observation and wondered....... will respond to bill golden via p-note ---------- response 9 10/09 15.30 bator kka This is probably a response to a response to several responses. Here's mine: It always intrigues me that those who get uptight about even casual observations of racism or sexism obfuscate by 1. chewing on fringes or irrelevancies, e.g. "cutesy dialogue" or "bussing" (sic). or 2. personalizing (why pick on me or what is wrong with you?) Shelve the defenses which are temporarily soothing but do not solve problems. ---------- response 10 10/09 16.59 tenczar s In my 8 years at PLATO, there has never been a minority applicant for the -s- system software staff...or even more amazing, for the -p- junior programmer staff! ---------- response 11 10/09 19.46 hinton ssu No, I don't get uptight about charges of racism/sexism: I've been fighting those evils for much of my life. I get uptight about innuendos, veiled hints, slurs, implications, and dodges that obscure the facts. In the note that started this series, I cannot find any data at all. There is one reference to a book: no mention of what the book (or report) is, no reason giving for mentioning it, not even any re- port on what the book says. If someone has documentation of deliberate exclusion of minorities from CERL, let's have it--otherwise, let's cut out the trash. ndh ---------- response 12 10/12 18.32 hody med while i was recruiting for positions for the medical author group-- many positions requiring no previous TUTOR experience, to the best of my recollection there was not one black applicant== * at the federation (of american societies for exp biology) meetings in 1974, i interviewed about 30 applicants for content specialist positions-- despite clear invitation in our published ads, not one black individual applied. we offered trips to u/c for follow up interviews to 2 female candidates, both declined in favor of other positions. ---------- response 13 10/12 23.12 lombardo ed It would appear that the point here is minorities should be hired on the basis of thier being minorities and not on the basis of thier being competitive for the job. This seems to be indicated in the response that there are OJT positions etc. Even OJT positions should be filled on the basis of competitive selection which SHOULD NOT be influenced by any other factor but the individuals ability and desire to work. Reverse discrimination is just as bad as the original discrimination and it is sad that the attitude of "we got the short end before so now its your turn" is so commonly accepted. I wish people would stop writing these hate letters with no basis but emotionalism. There are a very few jobs open on PLATO and it is insane to feel that the employers should go out door to door looking for minorities to fill them rather than take applicants who show enough initiative as ---------- response 14 10/12 23.16 lombardo ed walking through the door would indicate. When will people learn that you don't get something for nothing, regardless of who you are. It is poor judgement for leaders of any group to make sweeping unfounded statements because it can only serve to alienate the members for thier own group when they are proven wrong, and also the people external to the group when they hear some group spokesperson who obviously has not researched the problem. ---------- note 208 no concept 10/08 12.42 bonetti ced Why isn't there a complement to the -concept- command? What I mean is that the complement of -ok- is -no- and the complement of -answer- is -wrong-. But I can't find any complement to -concept- in aids. Therefore if I want to use a large vocabulary and respond with a no to a -concept- I have to stick in a -judge no-. Am I over looking a command somewhere or is the -judge no- route the only way to have a wrong concept sort of command? ---------- response 1 10/08 12.52 fay rtv362 You will indeed have to use either a conditional judging format [eg, judge anscnt,no.no,ok,no,ok,no,no,ok] or limit your wrong judgments to words or phrases included in the tag of a wrong command. It would appear that the concept machinery is set up only to allow you to categorize complex student responses; the judging is then left up to you. I agree that a complement (like -wrongc-) would be nicer. ---------- response 2 10/08 14.24 p cohen med Bill, I wrote a note with the same idea several nonths ago. At that time, I proposed -misconc- (for "misconception") as a possible command name. --paul ---------- response 3 10/09 17.05 tenczar s yes indeed, this is on the list of software jobs needing to be done... we are also exploring the possibility that all the answer command names exist in "positive" form only and that the addition of something like "-" modify it to the "NO" form. e.g.: answer cat answer- dog concept car concept- boat that way, the user need not learn as many TUTOR command names... any comments??? ---------- response 4 10/09 17.57 celia pso I think that learning a name for something whose function is already familiar is a very easy task. New authors that I have worked with see immediately that -wrong- and -answer- have the same properties. Different names for the positive and negative of a pair make for easy reading of code and encourage logical organi- zation of units. ---------- response 5 10/10 22.45 johnston ssu Also, the instructional an discussional material relating to answer- would look like -answer-- which wouls lead to problems. ---------- note 214 d crunch 10/08 14.11 capek m siu What happened to the 'Lesson Deleted' page when an author gets canned from his lesson by the current ECS crunch? ---------- response 1 10/08 14.41 warner iu I don't mourn it in the least!↓↓ When a lesson is deleted, the whole code is gone. The system now tries to press STOP1 on all users before deleting the lesson. This gives a chance to execute finish units. ↓↓Perhaps a message could be inserted on the STOP1 page somewhere, though, if the STOP1 was a system keypress done prior to deletion. Something on the order of "Too much!" just below where the ECS would be displayed. ---------- response 2 10/08 16.43 boggs biocc Can we count on this type of deletion from now on (finish unit executed) and trust that, except in the case of a recondense, the more abrupt type will not occur? ---------- note 218 condensor 10/08 15.03 volpe mfl I get the message " condensor not available" for most esl lessons. What's wrong??????????????? tom volpe ---------- response 1 10/08 15.10 dave fuller uimc Condensor is back up. ---------- note 221 site restr 10/08 15.54 berger mfl Due to the ECS crunch that we have been experiencing, it has been necessary to activate our temporary course restriction list. Some courses have the first few characters the same, but end in a section number. To save space, would it be possible to put in an option that allows you to specify that all courses beginning with the same N letters be restricted? ie: one could restrict all the accounting courses by restricting everyting beginning with "accy".. Can this option be implemented? ---------- response 1 10/08 18.31 oberpriller arizona that would be helpful for us here at arizona, too, since almost all of our courses begin with 'ua....'. perhaps the use of a "wild character" like $ could be implemented to allow this sort of thing. dave ---------- response 2 10/08 19.27 al mfl Wild card char $ to replace chars on a one to one basis. * to replace a groupe of chars. hebrew$ would match any course starting with 'hebrew' and having one more char. accy* would match any course starting with accy x*yz would match any course starting with an x having some number of ignored chars and ending with yz ---------- response 3 10/08 22.49 warner iu Ohboy, would we love that last suggestion. (SNOBOL4 comes to PLATO!) Howevr, on a realistic basis, the idea of matching only n characters of a course would do very well for us at iu as well. This scheme is already used for our notefile and other goodies. ---------- response 4 10/09 15.28 meers wright I would fully support such a scheme. Our permanent site restriction list is full, and with only 21 courses on the temporary restriction list, we get the message after trying to add a course stating: 'There is not enough room for your list It will not be updated' Anyone know what the problem might be? A scheme permitting all courses starting with the same characters to be allowed in would certainly take care of the problem. ---------- response 5 10/09 19.32 b sherwood s This is being worked on at present. ---------- note 223 note 35 10/08 16.02 levinson cerl I would appreciate comments on note 35. Thankyou. ---------- response 1 10/09 13.08 ostuni iu it is interesting that notes of this genre seldom get expected results... ---------- response 2 10/13 10.47 paulm uimatha Probably because it takes too much effort to back out, back up, read, and reply to the note... Hopefully the new notes package will make this easier. ---------- note 224 *zds* prob 10/08 16.37 boggs biocc Regarding Gen. Note 191, Has the problem mentioned been fixed? Will there be another conversion done before the old forms of those reserved words are made inoperable? Thanks. Steve B. (For information: the problem occurred when *zdswpr* was used in the simple define: stomax(x)=zdswpr*x ) ---------- response 1 10/09 11.58 rader s The problem had nothing to do, actually, with the particular reserved word--it has undoubtedly hit many reserved words in previous weeks. Just shows that a lot of reserved words don't get much use... The solution is in place, and will be running in prime time with the next version of plato. ---------- note 226 les. ozzie 10/08 17.13 simons cs196 at 5 p.m i got a note at the bottom of the screen that read: make your contibution-----lesson '0zzie' does anybody know what this is for ? the lesson looks useless.....just some chars moving across the screen. the message just flashed at the bottom of the screen, and then left, as misteriously as it came. ---------- response 1 10/08 17.52 halvorsen forestry Hmmm.. I think you should talk to the person who sent that message (ozzie of cerl). This note should have been put in the cs196 notesfile and _not_ here. Tim ---------- response 2 10/08 18.04 fritz ames If you'd watch the pattern of the flashing chars, you'd notice it's a binary counter, left side least significant. Figuring there were approximately 185 flashes in 15 seconds, it would only take 2ˆ6ˆ0 ≡ 12.333 bits/sec ≡ 60 sec/min ≡ 60 min/hr ≡ 24 hr/day or 1.082≠10ˆ1ˆ2 days, which is only about 2,962,286,376 YEARS of collective sitting in that lesson to turn the whole thing over to zero again. PS: For an added thrill, check your TIPS rating when you STOP1 out of there. I got 50+ TIPS several times... ---------- response 3 10/08 18.59 frankel p You're right, it's thrilling. ---------- response 4 10/08 19.20 fay o ZZZzzzzz.... ---------- response 5 10/08 19.29 al mfl Doesn't this qualify as one of the abusive lessons we were having such a fight over last year? Alan ---------- response 6 10/08 21.56 clark lawyer what happened to it???? I cant get in now!!! I wanted to watch the thing work!! ---------- response 7 10/09 00.05 ozzie cerl 1) In response to the original note: NO, I DID NOT send the course a Message. 2) Yes, it is thrilling. Just as thrilling as "system" lessons like "move the cursor" and "monotony"... 3) Lesson '0zzie' was given to me for a specific purpose. The majority of work that has been done in it has been for that purpose. I, as many others, sometimes get a bit tired of doing straight work and do things for my own enjoyment. This happened to be one of them. Until a few days ago, I didn't feel a need to put a jumpout at the beginning to prevent people from wandering in. But if people are going to accuse me of being a "system abuser" because I write high cpu ( it was running backgnd ) "boring" routines, then I indeed shall. Raymond Ozzie ---------- response 8 10/09 13.07 ostuni iu Abusive? ---------- response 9 10/09 15.48 berger mfl Yes. Read new system feature note number 21. One of the lessons in question used less processing time than "ozzie". yet it disappeared, mainly for that reason. ---------- note 227 new aids 10/08 17.15 jim pso The system defined variable section of AIDS has been revised by Celia Davis. Use the key phrase "system defined variable" or enter any of the ¬; 75 system defined variables. ---------- note 232 example 10/08 17.57 wegner phar Would it be possible to the branch example in aids changed to something like branch var1,neg1,zero,one or whatever the convention is. Sometimes i forget what the convention is and have to resort to digging throuth aids tring to find it in some inconspicous place or the good old trial and error method. God help the new author who has to figure it out himself. WEG ---------- response 1 10/09 08.48 jim pso all conditional commands in TUTOR (except -match-, -from- and -keytype-) use the same format.... command expression,negative,zero,plus1,plus2,plus3,etc... for a list of conditional commands, enter the key word "conditional commands". more detail is available from that display. -match-, -from-, ¬+ -keytype- use the following format... command expression,zero,plus1,plus2,plus3,etc... if the object is not located, a -1 is returned with -from-, -match-, ¬+ -keytype- ghesquiere ---------- note 233 STOP1 10/08 18.04 wegner phar i always feel like i am playing russian roulette when gettin out of monitor mode. Its like whoever hits stop1 first gets to stay on the system and the other guy gets bumped off Even a small thing telling the one the parties that he is the one expected to stop1 would help. Or would it be possib to use help1 or anything but the stop1. Why use such a dynamite key to end monitor mode!! WEG ---------- response 1 10/08 18.54 frankel p Try BACK1. ---------- response 2 10/08 19.25 wegner phar thanks..... WEG ---------- note 245 arrow at 10/08 21.49 mckeown com It would be quite convenient if there was a quick way of respecifying the location where responses to wrong answers would begin without having to either put an at in each wrong group or put in an *ok*,*at*,*judge continue* set. I am thinking about something like an optional 2nd argument in the tag of the arrow command. This sort of thing would be extremely helpful to those of us who attempt to pick up as many specific wrong answers as possible. It would probably encourage more specific wrongs to be put in and would save quite a bit of lesson space (both source and condensed) through elimination of a lot of *at*s as well as making it more convenient to use do*ne units to give similar responses to wrong answers to different arrows. ( know this can be done now by preceding the *do* with an *at* each place it is used, but it would be easier to know the *at* was going to be set with a default.) ---------- response 1 10/09 00.13 john r reading An -imain- that contains an -iarrow- as in the example below would have the desired screen effect, make the programing less tedious, and reduce ECS load. But it would certainly retain all the CPU overhead of what you already do. imain imain * unit b arrow 810 ok write that's good * unit setwhere ok at where-200 judge continue * unit imain iarrow setwhere --------- response 2 10/09 11.14 b sherwood s Or just do this: arrow 1215 join at (3203) answer dog unit at(loc) ok at loc judge continue ---------- response 3 10/09 17.00 judy pso If you're going to be -do-ing the answer comments, then passing the address with the unit is very easy: do comment (place) * * unit comment (temp) at temp write comments ---------- note 251 outflow 10/09 00.25 john r reading exec error in perc186 for a student at 12:46 Wednesday. unit line 0 reg post arrow station outflow Unless this is supposed to indicate that he was attempting to steal a terminal after PLATO shafted him, I don't know what could have caused it. ---------- response 1 10/09 10.34 white p His phone line probably sent in garbage that happened to look like our key for "station output buffer overflow". I will see what I can do about redefining this key to be one that can't come in accidently from the phone line. (It might take a while, since it probably requires rewriting some of the plato-formatter interface.) ---------- response 2 10/09 11.43 john r reading Thanks. ---------- note 252 ECS 10/09 08.18 mont csa I think I have some slight idea of what has caused some of our ECS problems. This is what happened in 165 ERL yesterday morning. At 9:00 when some students are arriving to take a makeup exam, I check ECS and find over 100,000 words. So, even though I know that the exam consists of several large lessons, I don't cahase out the few miscel- laneous ( sp? ) students from other courses. However, at about 9:15 a student gets deleted from his exam. I check the ECS and find that the allocation is down to 77,000 words, so I chase out everyone except cs103 students, and everything is fine. Around 9:45, the ECS limit for the site starts increasing again, so that by about 10:00 it's near 100,000 again. Although I think I understand the algorithm, I'm suggesting that the ECS limit shouldn't be quite so responsive to temporary changes in use. ---------- response 1 10/09 08.29 golden s No, that isn't the reason. The increase was do to manual intervention (mine) but it is adjusted automatically, we find that the sites do not experience serious difficulties if we gave you a virtually stable allotment it would have to be near the base allotment, and few would accept that as an improvement. ---------- response 2 10/10 08.40 mont csa I'm not arguing for having only a base allotment. Perhaps what this is leading me to is a suggestion to include the base allotement in the site ECS display. Then when I see use approaching the base allotment, I could start chasing people out. ˇˇˇrˇˇˇ iˇˇˇcˇˇˇh ---------- note 256 records 10/09 11.06 b sherwood s We want to reorganize the course records editor to make it more transparent, PARTICULARLY to instructors. While we would like records also to be easy for authors, our main concern is another attempt to make it possible for novices to perform basic records mainpulations. A first cut is in lesson "baswk6" -- please look at it and comment. In a second stage we would like to make it possible to specify which options appear for instructors in the course, so that other options would not appear and would not confuse the instructor. PLEASE for now comment ONLY on the displays of "baswk6", NOT on possible additional records options. The reason for "change password" coming first is that this is reported as the single option which must be used in a great hurry by a harried teacher in the classroom. ---------- response 1 10/09 12.53 mckeown com On the option page for option 2 from main page, why not have the options reached by mnemonic keys (a for add, i for individual, m for message, etc.)? The option page from 4 would probably be better organized that way too, but it is not as likely to be used by an instructor.↓ I know you asked us to comment only on the displalys in there, but you don't have most displays which appear to cause problems for my people there so it is really difficult to enter an opinion (or test) which is easier. The critical displays are message and individual student. ---------- response 2 10/09 14.04 b sherwood s We do intend to clean up the individual student page, too. I should have mentioned that. Dunno about message options. There are serious disagreements among different people about how a menu should be laid out. But there are particularly serious complaints about non-contiguous letters (r for roster, a for add, etc.). These things MAY be ok for the skilled user, but they require close reading on the part of the occasional reader. ---------- response 3 10/09 14.39 cnb faa From what I have observed out here in the "real world" (students, instructors) a menu format using numbers is the least cumbersome....They are most easily found by the h-p-c typists (hunt-peck-cuss) of which we have many. ---------- response 4 10/09 16.08 friedman csa While looking at the record of a single student, will the options there be similar to those available now (data options, student vars, router vars, etc.)? If so, I suggest that it be possible to advance from the current student to the next one in the roster by simply pressing next1 on any of these pages (rather than having to go back to the main student display).↓ I'm not real sure whether this sample reorganization would make much difference, except that a few critical options would now be available with fewer keypresses.↓ I would favor mnemonic choice of option selection keys. ---------- response 5 10/09 16.08 warner iu I am in disagreement with at least one point of the new displays. I realize that it is often important to change a student's password, but it is just as important often to change that student's name or lesson, and to delete the student from the course. I would suggest a direct transfer from the first page to the individual student data records, rather than a transfer from the second page. Thus I would strongly suggest altering the "Change a student's password" option to a "Change a student's record" option, with provisions to change name, password, lesson, and even to delete the record and back out the student. ---------- response 6 10/09 17.00 bonnie matha This new display looks a lot less intimidating to a new instructor! Could the headings for the 2nd page displays be different from the main options page ("Plato course phys") like "Special Options for Plato course phys" and "Information about Students in Plato course phys" ? This would help us remember where we are. Also, could there be a message about pressing BACK for the main option page? I hope that the "Delete a Student" page will emphasize that this is a permanent deletion from the class roster, rather than a back-out. ---------- response 7 10/09 17.10 jimw english I like the new course pages and would like to throw in a few comments. 1. I like the way the number of choices on the pages, especially the first, are pared down. I'd like to see the first page cleaned out even further by removing the last section on special options. Most teachers I've worked with will gradually make use of many of the options but in the beginning are concerned mainly with adding students, changing passwords, and designing curricula. 2. Bury the course data page if you even let instructors see it all. Only a very competent instructor should be allowed near that page. 3. Teachers seem to pick up the pattern of letters of functions fairly rapidly, I'd rather not see that changed to numbers or alphabet. Thanks ---------- response 8 10/09 17.13 jimw english One more thing, going along with Bonnie's note, put titles on each page, as close to describing the function and/or purpose of that page as possible. ---------- response 9 10/09 18.32 dave fuller uimc I like the new format a lot. A new - type person liked the format much better (and got around within it easier) than in the present setup. I vote no for mnemonic key names - practice has shown with a lot of people that use options heavily that a menu - type format is easier to use if it's used a lot, and a 0-9 / a-z format is certainly no hardship on some- one who is only an occasional user. There are many of us out here who have much trouble with mnemonic options pages. (like me) D. Fuller ---------- response 10 10/09 19.42 b sherwood s To Warner: I would think that changing a student's name would be uncommon, and certainly not so time-critical as clearing a password. Changing a lesson name is VERY far from what an instructor can do. We intend to bury that option rather deeply. One of the problems of the present records editor is the ease with which, by a mistaken key- press, one can clobber the lesson name in a student's record. It is an interesting comment to say that numbers should be used rather than letters. Should they all be numbers? There can then be a problem with hitting a number twice and jumping too fast to the wrong display. What do you think? ---------- response 11 10/09 22.21 john r reading Now that's interesting. What if the menu pages alteranted between numbers and letters. You could never double key yourself into limbo that way. I also am opposed to mnemonic selectors: there are too many things that have the same name (i=inidivual or info, c=change name or copy record, etc.). Serial selectors force one's attention to the menu page rather than to one's memory of an option name that might mean something different than expected on the current page. ---------- response 12 10/10 09.11 friedman csa I realize that the purpose of this is to make things convenient for instructors, but please, let's not make them TOO inconvenient for experienced users, too. For example, I frequently have to switch from one datafile to another, making the same switch for each of _17_ (count em) courses. It's already a pain; if the data page is buried any deeper than it is now....!!!!!↓ Could you either (1) have two records editors, one for instructors, another for experienced users; or (2) have some way of making changes like this (data options would be another, less important (to me) example) in some bulk way rather than course-by-course. ---------- response 13 10/10 10.01 b sherwood s Notice that the data page is accessible by pressing DATA, just as in a lesson. Try it in baswk6! ---------- note 264 cnd nt avl 10/09 13.13 john r reading 'condensor not available' time=1323 ---------- response 1 10/09 13.42 white p Yes, someone's lesson kept crashing the condensor (about 6 times in a row). I have it set up now so that if they crash it one more time, we will find out whodoneit, then we can fix it. ---------- note 268 del. page 10/09 14.04 nate iumusic It seems like we have the "lesson deleted" page again, as I just got it. (no, there was no way that the author could have recondensed it, since I am the author) Question: Does that mean stop1 is NOT being pressed anymore? (I sure hope not, as I have a vital finish unit) ---------- response 1 10/09 15.05 hinton ssu I sure wish someone would speak to this...I raised it in HELPNotes and again in a response to another note...We are going to have people complaining that they did not flunk a test, and we will have no way to check it out, if ECS deletions do not either (a) allow a -finish- unit or (b) return backout-=0 in some way that lets us record it..... ndh ---------- response 2 10/09 16.51 mckeown com It would seem that not executing a finish unit would be a sure indication that stop1 was not pressed so that those who must know whether deletion or stop1 occurred should probably be asking for no finish unit execution on deletion.↓ (Obviously a better solution is for the finish unit to be able to tell the difference through some system variable. I haven't had to deal with critical questions on deletions of students since I have never seen a student deleted from a lesson, but my recollection is that there is a special value of errtype for unsuccessful jumpout due to lack of ECS.) ---------- response 3 10/09 17.28 michael english Whenever anyone is deleted without passing through my finish units it screws up some vital counters. True, I'd like to know if the system or the student pressed STOP1, but not having it pressed at all is far far worse. --------- response 4 10/10 14.42 rusty pdg I, on the other hand, am happy that deletion does not activate the finish unit, since the finish unit does irrevocable things to the storage (specifically in the dungeon program). If you plan to change this, please provide two different forms of finish unit...one should work upon deletion, the other only on STOP1. Rusty R. ---------- response 5 10/11 09.54 koning csstaff How about a 'finish' and 'dfinish' unit?¬↑ˇ P¬≤ˇK ---------- note 270 "RED" 10/09 14.12 mosley cstate Frustrated Does anybody know whats wrong with this scree up sys....te.m ≥jomv IvieICDFRNAQWeKFVHKOYLJ ???? Everytime I try to do s om? work ........some‎thing≥LH jm strang≥H happens, I g; t knocked off the system cons--- tatnlyyyyyy in the midd=eof lessons/ I got knocked off five tim≥W s -s wile+ trying to write this note....... whats wrong≥/ ---------- response 1 10/09 15.28 olson ced There's no way in the world I could read what you just typed in your note... There were bits and pieces of characters thrown in everywhere... ---------- response 2 10/09 15.54 blair m looks like you may have either a terminal or a phone line problem. please enter it in lesson repair(if the terminal will cooperate long enough, or you have another terminal) or call us at 217-333-7466 and we will enter it for you. ---------- response 3 10/09 15.58 lieber m Since he is in the Chicago area he can call 312-996-5157. ---------- response 4 10/09 19.44 berger mfl I can't imagine that you got "knocked off" five times while in notes, though. ---------- response 5 10/09 20.04 koning csstaff How about a phone line screwup that generates STOP1's? ---------- response 6 10/10 14.14 ostuni iu This is clearly a joke, and a well perpetrated one. I salute you! ---------- note 290 discount 10/09 17.51 b parrello med As of this moment, the med site is using far more ECS than is listed as its "current ECS allotment". Counting only 3 students who happen to have different eCS figures (i.e. they are definitely in different lessons) and excluding the router charge, I get almost 20,000 as opposed to the 14,000 we are using. This happens every time I look at the shift-E option for this site: about once every after- noon between 4:00 and 6:00. Also, the langlab site is using 16,392 words of ECS and is billed as using 11,754. ---------- response 1 10/10 13.05 mckeown com I am not questioning that there might be a 'discount' occurring, but even students who have different ECS figures might be using the same router and common (which would only be counted once for the site). ---------- response 2 10/10 15.05 parrello uimatha No, the shift-E option distinguishes the router, and the lessons the med routers use each have their own private common for data collection. ---------- note 297 more rec 10/09 20.03 b sherwood s Try "baswk6" again to see whether you prefer "choose a number". I made two changes: all numbers (no letters), and different heading (instead of Press To). Also made different titles on the different pages. ---------- response 1 10/09 20.46 dave fuller uimc Very nice. If an option has not been activated by entry on the "data" page, will it be shown as an option anyway? (Such as curriculum, datafile, etc options) I personally have no preference. A good explanation to the person might be just as well as making the option invisible when not available. Discussion? ---------- response 2 10/09 21.21 michael english Invisible, please. In particular, we need the ability to turn off almost everything on the "template" page for an instructor. The people who use non-system routers have different needs for course records, needs which can easily be accommodated for with simple changes to the records editor. Please keep us in mind if you are going to redesign it. ---------- response 3 10/09 21.42 hinton ssu I like the material better than the current Instructor page--I suppose this isn't included in the discussion, but I wonder if an Instructor _ought_ to be able to initial the catalog or delete all records: some ***** did that to one of our courses once, and what a mess ! But the pages are cleaner in appearance, and easier to understand. ≤ I hope the explanation of "template" will be rewritten: I find the one now in use a trifle obscure, and the currrent key-press routines sometimes confusing. ndh ---------- response 4 10/09 21.55 b sherwood s Yes, it is intended that course directors be able to turn on and off whatever options are desired. Disabled options would not appear on the choice pages. ---------- response 5 10/09 22.00 hinton ssu I forgot---I do not find the number/letter arrangement difficult. But after one has worked on the system a while, he finds so many different conventions that almost any directions get followed. I suspect you need to get some new people in to try to follow the key-press directions... ndh ps. hooray for turning off options ! ---------- response 6 10/09 22.21 dave fuller uimc The terminology "press back to leave" could be confusing -- perhaps a "press back to return to" phrase might be more appropriate. Hoorah for selectable options! ---------- response 7 10/10 00.43 koning csstaff When I last tried it, BACK did nothing on the entry page and got me back two pages after message options and some other one I forgot. Just simple bugs, but I figured I'd mention them... ¬↑ˇPaul ---------- response 8 10/10 09.28 schreiner csa (1) why does BACK return from the message options to the 'main' page, and not the 'student info' page? (2) why does BACK not get one out of the lesson? (3) I like HGF's idea of two editors - one for the uninitiated and one for old hands. BUT: how about enabling us to write user-exits to the super- editor? Things like a special router-variable manipulation page, returning the nr's as n's, etc. If this is well thought out (and many IBM utilities operate well this way), a very flexible system would result, allowing HGF's write-course without direct access to a course file, etc. ---------- response 9 10/10 10.10 b sherwood s More minor changes in response to these comments and to received pnotes comments. Numbers alternate with letters on the menus, to avoid problems with inadvertant multiple- key inputs. BACK messages changed. Order of options on first page changed to make the system-router associated feature (design a curriculum) last on the menu. ---------- response 10 10/12 15.32 weible fl I'd like to see the 'copy a record from another course' on the same page with 'add a student' and 'delete a student'. An inexperienced TA might well think that the only way to move a student's record from one course to another was to delete the original record and create a new one. (It has happened here.) Also, some spelling out of the fact that deletion of the record does indeed mean that all record of what the student has done will be lost and that he, if he is to continue, will have to start from scratch would be helpful. It should be as plain as a pikestaff, but experience has shown that such is not always the case. D. Weible ---------- response 11 10/13 11.35 b sherwood s I do intend to make the deletion difficult and obvious. Dunno 8out the copy option..... ---------- note 304 no passwrd 10/09 22.09 b sherwood s Minor change to sign-on procedures: if a password is "none", the second person in cannot knock the first user out from the other terminal. This was requested by teachers who noticed "thrashing" in this case. ---------- note 313 new logic 10/10 10.37 delong phys3 can anybody tell me where I can get more information about the 'new type of logic' as mentioned in the Engineering Outlook? I am very interested. ---------- response 1 10/13 17.18 whansen csa See Prof. Michalski in Computer Science Dept. ---------- note 316 pass pause 10/10 14.40 judy pso Using the code below: 1. press STOP before the charset finishes loading 2. you will see "this is mine" 3. WAIT!! in about 5-10 seconds, you will pass the pause and see "more mine" without ever touching another key. at 1515 write Patience, loading charset charset espo10,espo10 * unit mine at 2020 write this is unit mine pause write more mine ---------- response 1 10/10 15.15 olson ced Judy... According to your instructions: I was unable to duplicate your error. The charset loaded ok, and the pause worked ok....pressing STOP before charset was loaded did nothing..message--patience etc..stayed on screen. ---------- response 2 10/10 15.43 clark lawyer ahhh...but if you press STOP and then press next to break through the next unit, the error occurs readily... ALSO: If you omit the unit command, the same thing happens; after about 10 secs, the pause falls apart! Ah well.... ---------- response 3 10/10 16.23 galcher uimatha And if you try to find a relation between the time when the pause fails and when the charset would have actually finished loading, you find that those times are about the same!↓↓Now try this code: unit one calc v2‎clock $$ for timing at 1010 write There is a charset loading here. charset espo10,espo10 at 1210 write Time so far = ¬0s,(clock-v2)¬1 at 1410 write Here is a pause statement pause at 1510 write After the pause. Total time = ¬0s,(clock-v2)¬1 * Notice the fact that if you have more than one write (-at- and -write- actually) that it does NOT fail! ---------- response 4 10/10 16.39 clark lawyer Also, and this might not be too surprizing, if you insert a catchup or return command in unit mine, the pause works as it should! ---------- response 5 10/10 20.07 little t research After trying to do things the brute force way with the pdp11 program we have to take apart output from the plato line and display it, I tried using a little sense(?). So I thought lets show the value of the infamous variable key. 0226 right after the stop and not so strangely enough 0235 after the pause was broken. So I remembered what a famous sysprog once said about the problem of aborting output from a full screen erase while loading chars. It nicely tosses in a catchup key so as not to lose the chars. Therefore the catchup key comes through after the rest of the output is aborted. Todd PS the reason for using the 11 program was to check for the echo that I was sure being sent after the stop key. ---------- note 321 policy 10/10 16.05 levinson cerl i would appreciate comments on note number 35. Thankyou ---------- response 1 10/11 15.14 ostuni iu Hey come on all you Mr.Importants out there, give this guy some assistance and answer his note. This is the second time he's asked ya, and I'm tired of being the only one to respond to this author's notes. Indifferent but still a humanist, G.O'Vanni O'Stuvwxyz ---------- response 2 10/12 23.31 lombardo ed Okay, here is my two cents worth. I for one would like to see more sites available for authors. I have a sign-on with Ed at the U of I, but the room and building for that matter close before I can get to it. I am only a part-time author which sort of makes me lowly on the priority scale particularly since I have an affiliation with a college. So I find it next to impossible to get any work done for the crowds in 165 CERL (priorities aside the noise level is to high to think most of the time). I also can't seem to convince anyone that I could use access to the second floor author room since I am affiliated with ed and they have thier own site. More author only rooms so we can work too. Secondly, I agree that the physical plant is very important to working with PLATO. The cubicles similar to those used ---------- response 3 10/12 23.37 lombardo ed in language labs would be very useful with PLATO. Additionally better lighting would help relieve eye strain and the headache which results from to much PLATO. These cubicles would serve to soundproof as well as separate individuals which would be more conducive to work. I also think that there should be sites located at the residence halls, and I don't even live in one. This would provide local availability to maximize the use of PLATO 24 hours a day. I don't blame anyone without a car for not wanting to come to CERL at night, I wouldn't! This forces the individual to make time during the day (usually prime time) or to not get the work done at all. This would also help free up the sites now so heavily in use at CERL. Additionally (wouldn't it be nice to have all this money?) Uni should have its own site to take care of all of its ---------- response 4 10/12 23.40 lombardo ed students, and they should be restricted to that site. This would certainly cut down on the game playing at CERL, particularly on weekend afternoons. ---------- response 5 10/13 21.41 michael english It seems rather contradictory to want open author sites for all and then say "uni" authors shouldn't be able to use them. The criteria for who can use what terminals has got be a little clearer than that, Lombardo. Don't confuse misuse of author records with legitimate authoring. ---------- response 6 10/13 23.07 lambardo ed Aha! Note please I did not say that uni AUTHORS could not use an author room! I just don't believe that 15 to 20 teenage game players can all be university of illinois authors working on lessons. The game playing itself has no mental strain on me, but it does tend to get noisy in 165 on weekends and after having taught high school I feel I can distinguish between high school students goofing around and high school students devoted to the furtherance of thier work. Really, I'm not down on Uni, I just commented on a real problem that does exist and a possible way to get around it (provided someone dies and leaves PLATO a million bucks). ---------- note 324 SD-full 10/10 17.55 zweig iu Was this brought up before, and if not, what is he general reaction to this: Situation: I've been in SD mode and just completed drawing the Taj Mahal to scale...then suddenly: (shudder) SORRY, BLOCK FULL!! It has been my experience that a portion of the code is lost if not all, am I correct? If this is so, would it be possible to have an indicator down at the lower left somewhere to show how much space remains? It might perhaps replot along with the screen locations. Dan ---------- response 1 10/10 18.50 midden p Sorry, but in SD mode the code is not lost. There has been mention of an extend option that will allow one to continue but who knows about it. (SS now sure will lose extra code!) Marshall Midden ---------- response 2 10/11 11.33 schreiner csa but who knows about it??? ---------- response 3 10/11 12.24 zweig iu Thanks for the info so far, Marshall, but do you or anyone else see a need for the amount of words left to be displayed. It just seems to me that it would help a lot, although I can't think of an example right now... --Dan ---------- response 4 10/11 21.58 midden p Yes, "who knows aboutˇ¬Xit." Translation: I haven't been able to figure a good way to do it. Marshall Midden ---------- note 327 char lines 10/10 21.01 fisher conn I was just wondering what the purpose of the lines over any chars in a charset with a number > 64. Is there any system reason for these lines, if so, why did it suddenly change from DOTS below the character to LINES above the character? Is there any way that they can be removed? I don't know about other authors, but any capital letters that I make are completely ruined by the lines or dots. Either above or below. your greatful fishswine ---------- response 1 10/10 21.12 clark lawyer what are you talking about?????? I have never noticed any lines or dots either above or below any char that I have ever created.... ---------- response 2 10/10 21.25 fisher conn If the character has a number above 64, i.e. you need TWO char blocks to store your chars, there are SOMETIMES lines either above, or dots below the chars. I have no idea what causes them to be there, or why they are there sometimes and not others (they were there an hour ago, but not now!), but they are very agravating. Anyone know why they are there, and if they can be removed? ---------- response 3 10/10 21.37 oberpriller arizona sounds like you might be having problems with the terminal's R/W memory. we are having a similar problem with a few terminals here-- they are displaying '=' thru altfont chars. we have traced it to a bad R/W memory. dave ---------- response 4 10/10 23.14 fisher conn thanx. fishswine ---------- response 5 10/11 01.58 parrello uimatha *sigh* It's DREADFULLY annoying to have to wait for those all-blank notes to plot. ---------- response 6 10/11 04.41 bonnie matha I have a similar problem with the charset loaded in -ants-. Memory slots 64(space used for animation),74,75,82,83,94, and probably others have extra dots. I see this on the -ants- title page (the ant leaves little droppings as he moves). However, if I inspect the charset (charcric in file -cricket-) the dots are there until I pick option 4 (multiple character design) and select these 6 characters. The actual characters in the lower right corner still show the extra dots, but the big grid does not. When I press "i" now, the characters in the corner DON'T have the dots! And when I go into -ants- again, the ant droppings are gone. This is why I don't think it's a problem with my terminal. No other charset does this to me. (It is an old charset, now 1 block but originally 2 blocks in the old days.) Hope this helps. ---------- response 7 10/11 10.06 koning csstaff I have no problems with any charset, ants included. ---------- response 8 10/11 11.07 little t research As was said previously the problem IS in your R/W characrter memory. The reason those dots don't appear in the charset editor is that the i option actually goes and creates those dots from your unformatted char. Hence the dots are not in the charset otherwise they would appear there and in the large grid which is created the same way. Todd PS For those of you having problems, you should contact the person who repairs your terminals. PPS testor contains a program to test the R/W chars. ---------- response 9 10/11 11.18 frankel p Lesson charset DOES load the character into the R/W memory and plots it from there. I can't think why you would get different results (normal charset command vs. charset editor); maybe your R/W memory is very unstable. ---------- response 10 10/11 11.22 berger mfl Does it load in into the correct r/w memory slot, dave, of a different one? It very definitely sounds like a hardware problem. ---------- response 11 10/11 13.02 frankel p It loads into the "correct" slot. ---------- response 12 10/12 15.58 sellers arizona Then what is the problem? ---------- response 13 10/13 08.32 judy pso "hardware" problem means a problem with the physical equipment. The extra dots are a common problem. They are blamed on the R/W memory of the terminal and sometimes they come and go. ---------- note 349 atno 10/11 13.54 george martin ve Is there a reason why -atno- can not be used in an embeded form. ---------- response 1 10/11 16.32 char mathw .... could very well be -atno- simply hasn't been set up in the embed software at this point. (this note could go in help notes, too) ---------- response 2 10/11 18.11 rader s Atno has indeed not been set up in the embed software. Will look at it. ---------- note 355 condense 10/12 14.44 auld mflu Just tryed to condense my lesson and got Call your instructor -- Condensor Failure (1) What does it mean? warren ---------- response 1 10/12 15.09 avner s Thanks..the (1) is an error trace See help note replies for current details on this. ---------- note 357 orange 10/12 15.23 mikpeg tie ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? What the hell is the matter with the -color orange- command ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? mike ---------- response 1 10/12 15.54 crooks siu Last I knew it worked perfectly.....why not use -mode write- they are the same? magician ---------- response 2 10/13 10.54 broadus css Works fine for me in the form: color orange happy halloween! bob p.s. How old will it be on its birthday on the 31st of this month? ---------- response 3 10/13 12.36 white p Maybe you had an extra blank or a hidden character in the command? color orange instead of color orange ? ---------- response 4 10/13 21.16 bonnie matha The color command will be 3 years old on Oct 31st, I think. Rick Blomme set it up for colors orange and black in 1972. We have been anxiously waiting for the other colors ever since... ---------- note 361 terminal 10/12 16.55 avner s Access to data on site terminal usage has been provided for the past 1 1/2 years in lesson "terminal" as a general service to users. Because of one or more complaints about invasion of individual privacy, all access to individually identified data was withdrawn last week. Unfortunately, this general solution appears to work a gross hardship on many site directors who indicated that they were happy to have their own data public in return for its availability. One of these site directors has suggested that public access be withdrawn only for those who object rather than for all. This solution seems workable. The lesson has been reopened temporarily for general inspection. Site directors who wish identified data from their site not to be shown should contact me via pnotes and access will be withdrawn. ---------- response 1 10/12 17.55 hody med Indeed it must be embarrassing to those who use their terminals 0.0 hours a week to have the fact nationally advertised! ---------- response 2 10/12 23.00 avner s There may be circumstances under which a site will have very low usage (closed down for the summer, terminal problems, or critical but low-rate use) but still be doing valid work. No one but the site director really knows. We would much rather that anyone feeling embarassed by low usage (or simply feeling that their usage was no one's business but theirs) request that their data not be shown rather than feel obligated to inflate their data by keeping empty terminals signed on. At the same time, many site directors have indicated that knowing usage for sites similar to their own is very beneficial in making planning estimates. It is currently a fact of life that some sites with less than 40 (or even 4) hours of use per week are doing significant work. ---------- response 3 10/14 03.15 sellers arizona If the reason that an individual wants to take a terminal off is because of low useage, then he is taking it off for the wrong reasons. Anyone who interperats the low usage as bad without knowing the real situation is not worth bothering about. On the other hand, a person who wants the terminal taken off has a right, in as far as he doesn't deprive others of useful information in regard to their own sites,to do so. The comparison of the various usages is useful information. I use comparisons in demos from time to time. I would like to tell my demoees that the information is complete. If the terminals in question are associated with an individual person I would like to see his personal rights protected. If the terminals belong to an organization, then I think that free access to the information about the terminals would be the safest general policy. ---------- note 362 next1 10/12 17.51 l haken uni It would be nice if, on the execution error page, NEXT1 would get you either to the 'last command' or to the line that is causing the problem.... ---------- response 1 10/12 20.14 warner iu Not possible. The NEXT1 feature from the condense error page works only because the condensor has available the uncondensed source code (with block divisions, continued commands, comments, etc.) and hence can refer you to the proper place in case of error. This information is then thrown away while the lesson executes. Thus, when an exec error takes place, PLATO can tell you the unit, and the approximate position of the command in the unit (barring certain quirks), but cannot find the block the unit is in or the actual line number of the error in the source code. ---------- note 372 aviation 10/13 01.11 lombardo ed This is a plea for all lessons that may be related to aviation either directly or indirectly. I am preparing a lesson index for aviation and would like to hear from authors who have a lesson or lessons that they feel would be applicable. Such lessons might cover weather, general aviation, aviation simulation, regulations, navigation, games, etc, etc. The lesson includes an option where the individual can get a brief description of each lesson without actually going through the lesson. Should you write a lesson in the future, please inform me for inclusion. I may be reached via personal notes. Thank you. ---------- note 377 terminals 10/13 11.54 hubel ed I would appreciate a response from a hardware authority: At our site, we use our terminals heavily during the day, and little during the evenings and weekends. Would it be best to leave them running all night in order to eliminate abusive starting currents, or to turn them off at the end of the day in order to reduce general wear and power consumption? We have lower serial number terminals (older) and have always kept them on in the past. ---------- response 1 10/13 12.00 williams m It doesn't really make much differance. I would shut them off to save energy. m. williams ---------- note 380 sign(x) 10/13 14.07 celia pso The PLATO library contains several sign functions. Now that TUTOR has a sign function, would anyone object if I deleted the ones in the library? ---------- note 381 Condensor 10/13 14.39 czwornog mflu At approximately 2:35 pm Recieved the following message: Call your instructor- Condensor failure (1) ---------- response 1 10/13 17.00 mcneil a fl Just got the same error at 4:57 while condensing 'gvocab3' from block display page. ---------- response 2 10/13 20.57 frankel p Thanks. ---------- note 382 job 10/13 14.43 tym park Monitor and Assistant Programmer Parkland College is in the process of reviewing applicants for a position as monitor and assistant programmer for the nursing project. Call Herb Trenz,personel office..351-2220 The primary function is to assist the Plato Nursing Project in programming materials and handling clerical routines associated with the project. Examples of responsibilities required: Uses beginning level of Plato programming skills in coding nursing lessons designed by authors. Regulates use of terminals by students under the Plato Coordinator's supervision. Monitors Plato room and reserves records Parkland Plato schedules on terminal. Types and files nursing materials relevant to Nursing grant. ---------- response 1 10/14 18.37 pogue cdcc I'm available!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- response 2 10/17 19.01 creager cs317 If I interpet the required skills correctly, I think I qualify under all but the last. ( One of these days I've just _got_ to learn how to type! ) *sigh* LLC ---------- note 383 hp-25 lost 10/13 15.33 fay o Lost: One HP-25 calculator Where: Rms 165 a / 165 b CERL When: Sometime between 3 am and 3 pm Monday (this date) If found the owner would greatly appreciate your turning it in to the operator on duty in room 166. There will be no questions asked. ---------- note 390 chars 10/14 02.39 hadden cs317 How can I insert a character block between two other blocks in a lesson. When I tried the shifted letter of the block after which I wanted to insert it, the character block ended up at the end. -- geo ---------- response 1 10/14 02.44 hanoka ed This process is done also with common blocks. If you want your char block in between some blocks, create the block, and then transfer the other blocks behind it. Kinda -kludge-y, yet it works. mike ---------- response 2 10/14 07.50 frankel p WHY do you want to put the charset block right in the middle of the lesson? ---------- response 3 10/14 08.29 olson ced The charset will work anywhere in your lesson. There really isn't any need to put it in the middle..... ---------- response 4 10/14 09.03 broadus css It helps at times to have the charset block near the code that uses it.¬ If you like it¬ this way(and you have enough extra blocks,) you can create a copy block where you want the charset block, press next(to copy from the lesson you are editing,) and copy the charset block into its new lo- cation. This saves¬ time(and errors)¬ compared to moving all the¬ other¬ blocks behind it. This is also helpful in the case of micro blocks. Naturally you delete the old block after it is copied. Bob ---------- response 5 10/14 10.02 lieber m Why are common and charset blocks put at the end anyway? ---------- response 6 10/14 10.28 friedman csa It's true that commons, charsets, etc. work no matter where they are put in a lesson, but it's also true that a lesson author can have a legitimate need to put them somewhere other than at the end of the lesson. The most annoying example of this is an attempt to keep a library of assorted kinds of blocks (see cslibrary for the one I have in mind). Here, it's important to have blocks which are logically related to each other, close to each other, so that the prospective user discovers them all. I won't tell you how much of a pain it was getting cslibrary's blocks into the order they are in.....↓ How about the editor letting us organize things the way the author wants? You can still put the blocks physically at the end, without insisting they also go logically at the end. PLEASE, Dave? ---------- response 7 10/14 10.29 celia pso amen ---------- response 8 10/14 20.48 char mathw in answer to dpf: ........... because ---------- note 399 cond fail 10/14 10.44 celia pso Condensor failure (1) at 10:40. Lesson name, etc, on request. ---------- note 400 SD"ID 10/14 11.01 me smithy mtc When the new SD and ID or whatever you people have decided on gets put on the system , would it be to much trouble if you could incorperate into the recalc of the f and g keys (used for fine and gross grid coordinates) a shifted F and G key to give coordinates based on your "at" or origin. Would be real handy for use with the rdraw and graphs. The way it stands now if you want to find a given point on a drawing which uses an "at" or origin to plot a display you have to add , subtract and so on which can be a bit of a bother........esp. for those who know modern math only. Is there a nea....or yea systems..? tic . ---------- response 1 10/14 19.20 midden p YEAH, sounds alright... (gotta quick write this down so I don't forget it!) Marshall Midden ---------- response 2 10/14 20.26 al mfl If you want, I'll send you a pnote. ---------- response 3 10/15 07.57 judy pso Very sensible idea! I never have been very good at subtraction..... ---------- note 401 accnt name 10/14 13.13 michael english It would be appreciated if the account to which a file belongs appeared somewhere for courses, datafiles, and datasets rather than just lessons. Possible? ---------- response 1 10/14 14.44 friedman csa Second the motion! ---------- response 2 10/14 15.33 golden s This is one of those things that definitely will be done.... ........sometime. ---------- note 402 condenfail 10/14 13.28 r lacoe mtc Condensor failure (1) time = 1321 CDT Lesson name on request non-repearable ---------- response 1 10/14 15.40 p cohen med Argh! I hope you don't mean "non-repairable"! --paul ---------- note 404 villa 10/14 14.54 volpe mfl What is course "villa?" tom volpe ---------- response 1 10/15 08.34 tebby pso Course "villa" is the course used by persons at Villa Maria College in Erie, Pennsylvania. ---------- note 407 site 10/14 16.06 b sherwood s Minor improvements to site director machinery, particularly in the message options. ---------- response 1 10/14 16.34 silver ve I think that the BACK key should back one out if one has written a message, but decides not to send it. Presently NEXT or BACK cause a message to be sent. I dont't know if the old version worked this way or not. The repeat message feature looks very useful. ---------- response 2 10/15 18.28 b sherwood s Fixed. ---------- note 408 fail again 10/14 16.10 galcher uimatha At 4:05 pm this day, received the following message: Call your instructor -- Condensor Failure (1) Lesson name available via pnotes if needed. Bill ---------- response 1 10/14 17.38 fritz ames Another failure at 17:37 -- info on request. ---------- response 2 10/14 20.36 blomme s Thank you for the information; as I understand it the problem is fixed, but not yet on the prime time version. ---------- note 416 store(n)? 10/14 21.11 fisher conn Is there any reason, when editing a common, why you may not type in something like '35+0135' to get to the 146ˆtˆh word? This type thig is available when in inspect mode, but when in edit mode, you may not do this. This lack of feature is very agavating, as I either have to go to inspect mode to find what word I want, or do a term calc each time. When I have many words to find in this way, it becomes a tedious task. Any options? thanx. your hopefully helpful fishswine ---------- response 1 10/14 21.20 halvorsen forestry If you look at the help pages for -editcom-, you will find that if you include any one of the letters "o,a,i,f" it changes the format of the display to those types. Therefore, the "o" that you typed to indicate octal was instead taken to mean "change to octal display" I guess you'll have to stick with term -calc-.... ---------- response 2 10/14 22.16 white p Now, if you type an expression like that, and hit shift-data, it will forget about the rest of the checks, and take you to that word. Thanks for the suggestion. ---------- response 3 10/15 11.14 gilpin peer One hour and five minutes from time request made to time completed change reported! ---------- response 4 10/16 17.38 fisher conn Thanx muchly. It is appreciated greatly! fishswine ---------- note 422 error 10/15 10.26 deiss phar I just typed in a lesson name on the author page and hit data. It froze there for a minute or so. I could not shift-stop out of it. So I went to another terminal and tried to kick myself off. That terminal froze for about 30 sec. then it informed me that I could not kick myself off the other due to system error that I should report as I now am. Then I went back to the first terminal and played 10,000 monkeys until the lesson I had originally data-d showed up. I then stop1-d out of it. And it took 30 sec. to get me back to the author mode page. This kind of thing has been happening often here. ---------- response 1 10/15 10.32 deiss phar I just got a repeat of the whole sequence when I tried lesson site. ---------- response 2 10/15 10.33 fritz ames I have been noticing the same thing... Bringing new lessons into ECS (only from the author mode page or thru a jumpout, I believe -- STOP1 from the editor seems to be ok) results in waits up to THREE MINUTES and FIFTY-TWO SECONDS! Is our poor overworked condensor having a hernia? ---------- response 3 10/15 13.23 silver ve I guess...I got a 3-4 minute wait on a jumpout, with a student signon. Part of that was condense queue. ---------- response 4 10/15 13.25 hinton ssu We had two freezes at about 10:20-10:45 this morning, approximately 15 minutes apart. ndh ---------- response 5 10/15 13.32 fritz ames My freezes weren't condense queues... It was 3:52 from the time I hit DATA until I ENTERED the queue! It happened several times in succession, I just didn't have enough time to see how many times it would do it. ---------- response 6 10/15 13.49 white uimatha It looks like they finally fixed that fake !Condensor not available" and "Condensor error(1)", however, it seems to require that you occasionally wait a little. Maybe they can put a message up while you are waiting.... like "waiting to roll condensor out and in again". ---------- response 7 10/15 15.12 dave fuller uimc Ridiculous... I just waited around for 2 minutes after pressing DATA. I'm thinking of getting 2 sets of records. ---------- response 8 10/15 16.35 rader s Would that help, Dave? ---------- response 9 10/15 19.24 dave fuller uimc sigh... ---------- note 430 talk/welcm 10/15 14.13 marty smith mtc WOW! I was editing a lesson just now; when lo and behold, the familiar "talk: somebody mtc" appeared on the lower left hand corner as it usually does. I dutifully hit the term key and typed "talk". That's where the fun began!! I pressed next after typing "talk" and all of a sudden, the "Welcome to Plato" page (414 users) flashed on the screen. Not knowing what to do, I finally figured I should type in my name. Nope. Everything I typed was where it appears when you are talking to someone. But, no one was there! I pressed -BACKΔ. Nothing happened. -BACK- again and again. (Didn't want to -STOP1- out: yet). And before I knew it, I was at the Author Mode page! Wot happen?! your-flipped-out-SCHMUCK! ---------- response 1 10/15 14.24 bruce iehl mtc I think I told you this once before: pinch yourself, this is all a dream. ---------- response 2 10/15 14.31 loitz acoustic Not impossible....it happened to me about a year ago. ---------- response 3 10/15 18.19 koning csstaff Maybe you were in monitor mode?...? ---------- response 4 10/15 18.39 marty smith mtc nope, later asked the person what happened; and HE didn't know! ---------- note 435 seminar 10/15 16.47 john r reading WHAT: Seminar WHEN: 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, October 21st WHERE: Room 351e, CERL (I think) WHO: Sharon Hunnicutt↓ Sharon Hunnicutt is working with John Allen at MIT in the development of a synthetic speech system. The group has developed a text-to-speech system which, for a piece of unrestricted text, can decompose words and consult an 11000 entry morph lexicon or else employ a grapheme-to-phoneme and stress production algorithm, and generate synthetic speech. Ms. Hunnicutt will discuss the nature of the group's work and play a demonstration tape. One of the hopes of the group it make the sytem compatible with PLATO so that 'speech' commmands can be sent digitally to an audio synthesizer at the terminal. Y'all come. ---------- response 1 10/15 17.40 fritz ames *sigh*... the pains of a remotee... ---------- response 2 10/15 19.07 carter comm Bell Labs has been doing similar work. Their "algorithm of last resort" (i.e. what it does if it doesn't know how to articulate a word) is interesting-- it simply spells the word out, letter-by-letter. ---------- response 3 10/15 21.59 warner iu That's it... That's IT!!!!!!!!!! When they start making talking PLATO terminals, I will begin looking for that ultimate command... ¬↑ˆ¬↑ˆ-think- ---------- response 4 10/16 08.33 john r reading By the way, Ms. Hunnicutt's expertise is in linguistics. She has promised to bone up on the hardware aspects of things, but doesn't want people TO expect expert oral explanations of highly technical hardware matters. She _will_ be able to discuss hardware to some extent, and will bring reprints of technical articles produced by the group. ---------- response 5 10/16 11.16 davidson css A teacher of mine at MIT was working on this system, and showed it to his class. It is _very_ impressive. ---------- response 6 10/16 14.45 john r reading WHERE is now the CSL auditorium. Everything else is the same. ---------- response 7 10/17 09.45 judy pso Southeast corner of Goodwin and Springfield in Urbana, first floor. Yes? ---------- response 8 10/17 19.05 creager cs317 That's close. Acually it's on Goodwin midway between Spingfield and Green streets. (Is that the auditorium on the third floor?) ---------- note 444 p-notes 10/16 08.35 mont csa I'm going out of town for 3 days, and I don't think it necessary to turn off my notes, but it sure would be nice if I could leave a note that all potential sendees would see before writing me a note. For example: Richard Montanelli will be out of town and off PLATO until Monday morning, October 20ˆtˆh. Press NEXT to leave a note anyway, or BACK to leave. ---------- response 1 10/16 10.33 gilpin peer one solution is to create a temporary second signon, and use the "you cannot send a note to" message from your regular signon to refer people to the temporary signon. ---------- response 2 10/16 11.48 koning csstaff yuck! ---------- response 3 10/16 13.10 carter comm excellent idea ---------- response 4 10/16 13.19 k mast p Interesting, and quite possible to do. (Though I have nightmares about the last time I tried to make such changes to pnotes!) ---------- note 445 more 10/16 08.57 bruce iehl mtc We have a brand new custom built ECS polling routine to give us some long term data on our usage, so it must stay in all day. Well it seems a waste to have this terminal sitting here all day when we could put it to other use. So while the program was running we unplugged the terminal from the site controller and moved it to one of the left-over ports. Now I am using the terminal (now on another station number) for other things, and can even monitor the polling program !! This is essentially the same thing the systems people have with their "non-hardware terminals". Could _we_ have a way to do this without moving the wires around? Of course if people were so inclined they could run their high cpu programs this way, and help run up the number of terminals in use. We would need to discuss the allocation of the extra terminals. ---------- response 1 10/16 09.50 avner s This is really an option available only to about a half dozen users on the system who happen to have more ports than terminals (and a temporary option at that). Such free ports will disappear when the last installment of terminals goes in. If you simply want long term site ecs usage, this is already available to you in lesson "terminal" for your site (and hourly for the system as a whole). ---------- response 2 10/16 10.39 frankel p Hmmm... I think that those wishing to run a "background" terminal should talk to Bill Golden (golden/s). He may be able to set something up for you. You don't need extra ports for this. ---------- response 3 10/16 15.26 bruce iehl mtc By long term I mean compared to something like lesson rash, so we have a graph of a whole days use at a time. It would also be nice not to have to sign the program in after each crash. Will talk to bill. ---------- note 447 -atno- 10/16 10.06 rader s The recently announced -atno- command has not yet been made embeddable. In reviewing this, a strong preference has developed that the name be changed to -atnm-. There are other commands (such as -arrow-) that we might want to treat in the same way--and -arrowno- will not have any reasonable connotations. The "nm" is for "no margin". Our plans would then be to change this command name from -atno- to -atnm-, and make the -atnm- command embeddable. The convertion is a standard type that should cause no trouble (we can even try to take care of change commands). Please register any complaints about this here! ---------- response 1 10/16 10.57 jim pso talking about command names --- there are all kinds of problems remembering the -backgnd- ¬+ -foregnd- command names as well as others. what about these changes: backgnd ¬D bground foregnd ¬D fground findl ¬D findlst (like addlst) removl ¬D removel lname ¬D lesname there are many, many other problems. some can only be solved with a longer command field. i believe it is better to type a longer command name, than to have some abbreviated name only a few people can relate to. why limit the command to only 8 characters? ---------- response 2 10/16 11.00 b sherwood s There are good technical reasons for limiting the command name to 7 characters, except where there is no tag (-endarrow-). I agree with you on favoring long names for readability and rememberability. Since you work on aids all the time, you are in a specially good position to suggest better names. Do you have some to add to the list just given? ---------- response 3 10/16 11.58 friedman csa If you change SOME of the leslist commands (-addl-, et al), please change them ALL in a SYSTEMATIC way; e.g., convert "l" to "lst" in -findl-, -removl-, and any others hanging around (I can't think of any others at this moment). I, for one, would not have any particular objections to the changes Jim G. suggests, except for -removl-, for which I think the ending should be the same as the ending for -addl- and -findl-. Unfortunately, if the new ending is to be "lst", -removlst- is too long. Perhaps either delete the letter "o", or shorten "lst". ---------- response 4 10/16 12.26 celia pso I much prefer -atnm- to -atno-. In addition to the changes suggested by Jim, I propose inhibit blanks ¬D inhibit noanswer because of the similarity in spoken TUTOR (!) between "inhibit blanks" and "inhibit (blank)". ---------- response 5 10/16 12.35 john r reading Changing atno to atnm will eliminate the ambiguity of the two argument atno command which can easily be mistyped aton. aton n1,n2 write You just blew up n2. ---------- response 6 10/16 16.04 kravitz cerl One for the gd rsns dptˆ*: Why must operators be limited to 8 characters ? ˆ*good reasons department ---------- response 7 10/16 17.05 b sherwood s The condensor looks only at the first 8 characters in order to determine the command name. And 8 or more characters also runs into the tag field whose beginning is defined by the TAB key. The reason why the condensor looks only at the first 8 characters is to make condensing go faster. ---------- response 8 10/17 08.37 friedman csa For those worried about disk space, note that 8 characters for the command, plus the two required characters 00000 to mark the end of a line, just fills one word. ---------- response 9 10/17 10.35 rader s Many thanks for the responses--we will see how many of the suggestions we can use; and I take it that -atnm- is acceptable to all. ---------- response 10 10/17 11.18 schreiner csa removl = dellst ?? ---------- response 11 10/17 16.29 brant ames Another candidate for name change might be checkpt, for checkpointing of common. I can never remember which part is abbreviated. George Brant ---------- note 452 exec error 10/16 11.03 bl abbott mtc encountered execution error on error page when condensing my lesson: execution error error occurred in lesson - conderr in unit - findhidc current state - regular (prearrow) last command - calc 6th command Error type - index err Join seq - showerrt 24 errordo 2 standard 9 lesson name available on request. Bart ---------- response 1 10/16 11.14 darlene pso Thank you, will fix soon. darlene ---------- note 457 sign(x) 10/16 12.00 celia pso Re note 381 Last chance to copy the library sign functions! I will delete them on Monday, so if you want any of them, copy now or forever hold your peace. ---------- note 460 miss erase 10/16 12.40 parrello uimatha PLATO has been forgetting to send full screen erases again. This happens: 1)at all times of the day 2)in all lessons (system or otherwise) 3)at all terminals 4)without any red lights. The terminals do NOT freeze up or anything. The screen simply fails to erase. This happens at least five or six times a day, and in some cases is an intolerable incon- venience. ---------- response 1 10/16 14.19 rader s To my knowledge this is always a hardware problem, with the terminal itself--if you try several terminals in the same overheated room, you can easily get the same results. To put it another way, if you press the white "clear" button and the problem goes away, then it is the terminal that is at fault. ---------- response 2 10/16 14.58 al mfl Then what you are saying is that if pressing the white clear button clears the screen then it is a hardware error, or "If the terminal works then the terminal doesn't work." ---------- response 3 10/16 15.59 ian cs425 Of course, it took me two tries to read the first response to this; the first time the terminal dropped a full screen erase! Its pleasant to know its a non-repeatable hardware problem. Apparently the terminals in DCL are suffering from the same disease as the ones in FLB. ---------- response 4 10/17 08.45 friedman csa I fail to see that the fact that the while switch clears the screen proves that the dropped erase is the terminal's fault! (Notice that the problem frequently manifests itself as a SINGLE dropped erase, not a long string of them.) The same symptoms would be observed of it is the fault of the software, i.e., if the erase signal had never been sent to the terminal! It may in fact always be the terminal's fault; I don't know, and I presume that's the purpose of this exchange; but the statement given is faulty logic. Now, I can see the logic of this if the terminal repeatedly fails to erase UNTIL the white switch is pressed; but like I said, that's not always the case-- it frequently is just a single missed erase, after which further erases work fine with no use of the white switch. ---------- response 5 10/17 10.48 rader s It appears that a more precise specification of symptoms is needed--I have never seen the single dropped full screen erase problem, and assumed that the problem of the terminal stopping all full screen erases was being discussed. In that case, my previous comments apply. If the problem is occasional dropping of full screen erases (and only full screen erases), all I can say is that we will have to see the problem before we can fix it. If you think you have a persistent case, or some evidence as to the nature of the problem, please let us know.--Are there some programs in which it is more frequent? Some sites? Some terminals? The statement that it is system wide cannot be true, 'cause I haven't seen it! ---------- note 464 sys conder 10/16 14.23 warner iu I am getting a condense error which is called a "sys error" in condensing a lesson (name on request.) The code is define decomp array,pitchx(12)=n39 mod (x,y)=y≠frac((x-1)≡y)+1 times(x,y)=int((x-1)≡y) note(x)=pitchx(mod(x,12))$ars$times(x,12) ↓This code gives a condense error when the lesson is condensed. The exact form of the error is ↓1. sys error in define (error 32) define note(x)=pitch_x_(mod(x,12)$ars$times(x,12) ---------- response 1 10/16 14.40 midden p One may not have arrays in following defines. define array,A(2)=n1 b=A(1)$mask$1 Will result in a condense error. Marshall Midden ---------- response 2 10/16 16.33 galcher uimatha See HELP note ¬$ 129. ---------- note 475 -writer- 10/16 21.16 rick mflu Has any more consideration been given to a -writer- command which would write a student record onto disk? A true stroy: The Modern Hebrew project uses 50 router variables to keep track of student scores on exercises and tests. These are stored as segmented variables in such a way as to allow for several units. It became apparent tonight (with a student execution error) that the segments need be smaller; however, this is not an easy thing to change. There are Hebrew stu- dents in 10 courses, whose router variables would all have to be changed. A -writer- command would make writing a program to do this conversion trivial; without it, the task is gargantuous. A previous discussion can be found in old general notes, ¬$356--note started on 9/26. ---------- response 1 10/16 22.52 tenczar s Currently their is a controversy within the systems software group over the advisability of a -writer- command. The matter is undecided. ---------- response 2 10/17 08.51 friedman csa Rick, I have a suggestion. I have found that from time to time, I need to change some define in my order variables, without disturbing the proper functioning of a student record that is using the old defines. So I store, in the one never-changed definition (a few bits in nr1) what I call a "version number". Then the router contains code to check the version ¬$, and convert to a new version if an old version is detected. So far, my conversions have involved only a few lines of code, so the size of my router has not increased significantly. This means that when I change my defines, I change my verson number, and put the conversion in the router. The main disadvantage, of course, is that this code stays in the router over a long period of time. ---------- response 3 10/17 15.33 tenczar s freidman's solution has been used by us at the system's level many times in the "evolution" of the user records system...it seems like a good solution (although it does cause a certain amount of nervousness) ---------- response 4 10/17 15.55 michael english I'm afraid that only a -writer- command will allow non-system routers to make it possible for teachers to prescribe individualized curricula for students in much the same way that the system now does. In order to meet these needs, the only practical way of handling it is to be able to alter router bank and the student restart information. The purpose of writing non-system routers is to gain flexibility, not lose it. Elaborate, error-prone procedures involving version updates, override flags and tree structures located in common and datasets have been developed to circumvent the system's failure to simplify an unnecessarily complex problem. What is the controversy about? ---------- response 5 10/18 09.47 friedman csa Please don't anyone get the idea from my earlier response that I don't still feel VERY STRONGLY that a -writer- is needed. Some of the reasons are those Gary mentions in the previous response; other reasons have been discussed by me and others in these notes previously.↓ I hope that the controversy can be solved in the reasonably near future. We NEED THIS COMMAND! ---------- note 477 coarse rec 10/16 23.34 david hebrew Scenes we'd LIKE to see: Joe Shmegeggie goes into course records to fix up Sam P. Mutchkie's octal variables. The finds that the -long- at the "change variable" arrow is just long enough for an "o" and a 20-digit number. (And the COPY key works also.) Then he has to change an alpha variable. He finds that the -long- is exactly 10. In the words of the Beach Boys, "Wouldn't it be nice?" Sorry if this is a bit frivolous, but I'm on vacation and am still slightly giddy. ---------- response 1 10/17 08.52 friedman csa "Would-n't it be loverly!" ---------- note 482 thanks 10/17 08.59 david hebrew Having just caught up with general notes: Thanks for the wildcard construction on -site-. Thanks also VERY much, Rick, for fixing the answer markup with respect to "hidden" characters. This had always been the most annoying "feature" of answer judging for us here at FLB. ---------- note 484 condensing 10/17 10.03 errol kka Is it my imagination or is the condenser going very slowly today for authors? ---------- note 485 pedit5 10/17 10.20 murphy arlc does anyone know who wrote pedit5 I would like to talk to him nuuts ---------- response 1 10/17 10.52 berger mfl I believe that rusty of pdg is responsible. ---------- response 2 10/17 19.09 creager cs317 Yep, et wuz Rusty who done it. ---------- note 490 Confused 10/17 12.46 mosley cstate Does anybody out their know why after the system crashes and an author goes into lesson "crash" to find the cause most of the time he will read something like "UK". The past two days the system has been having a lot of errors and crashes and for the most part this is reallya hasel Why so much trouble? Is their a certain time in the month when the user total gets so high that the ECS can't handle it? And why so many causes ""uK"? Is the system so vast that thay can't locate a problem quickly? Its all very strange to me. And what is worse it's all very strange to the student who gets knocked out of a lesson before he can finish it. This is all very distressing, especially to a new author who is trying to sell PLATO to the student body because thay don't know exist, and to have something like this happen when you finally get them down to try it out! Does anyone haves ideas? ---------- response 1 10/17 13.53 judy pso You have been unfortunate enough to be "new" at a particularly bad time. When there is an error in the system which causes crashes, it is not unusual for the system to crash several times in succession until the error is corrected. Yes, I guess you might say the system is so vast that finding an error takes a lot of time. After all, with thousands of hours of use behind us, most of the "easy" bugs have been found and corrected. Errors which are listed as "unknown" in lesson crash are changed to show the actual reason for the failure when (and if) that reason is discovered. ---------- response 2 10/17 18.41 ian cs425 Just be thankful that people are honest enough to say UK, rather than attributing them all to whatever the current bogeyman happens to be. It would be so easy to have all crashes attributed to, for example, ECS failures, and noone would ever look for the real cause. I have seen systems where there have been persistent errors for periods of over a year, because both the hardware and the software personnel spent more time pointing the finger at the other group than they did trying to fix the errors that were there. Saying a crash is unexplained is at least an indication that someone still has an open mind. ---------- note 491 next5? 10/17 12.48 l haken uni An interesting feature of the M option: (Did you know that shift-shift-b is b?) (now there is not only next and next1, but next2) When replacing "l" by"L", I pressed "M" once too often, and it seemed that it had not done anything. However, I soon noticed that the "l" was alternately "L" and "L". I thought this was strange, until I noticed that after 10 such switches the word count of the line went up by 1. This meant that my innocent little "l" was really shift-shift-shift-shift-shift-shift- shift-shift-shift-shift-l (-l10-). This, of course, is relatively easy to not notice, and might possibly cause some problems. ---------- response 1 10/17 13.03 sellers arizona That is because the pattern which your M option replaces is still in the string you are replacing. A trick you can use this for is to replace "o0" with "o" in char commands. Do this repeatedly until all "o0"s are gone. Then replace all "o," with "0,", and then make sure that the last number in the char is not ",o", if so... edit this to ",0" in replace mode. da da! you now have saved some space in storing this char! ---------- response 2 10/17 13.59 judy pso I can see where the "l" ¬D "L" could cause problems, but I don't see any easy way around it. By the way, not only is shift-shift-l just "l", but similarly access-access-a is just "a" and not "¬a". (MICRO-MICRO-a will be ¬a because the 1st MICRO is ignored, but 0767601 entered either as an octal string or by hitting shift-square will be just "a".) ---------- response 3 10/17 23.46 fritz ames Of course, you can get "l10" in half the time if you use the SHIFT1 key (which is what you press in order to access SHIFT-TERM -- gotten by holding down a shift key and pressing the other shift key.....) I'm sorry, I couldn't resist it. *** end of notes ***