+++ plato iv group notes +++

general interest notes 1975

notes beginning nov 18, 1975

file onotes40 printed at 9:13 am on june 12, 1976

---------- note 0 Charpower
  11/18     12.49     bowery       comm

  About 8 months ago I suggested a feature of TUTOR that
would take care of several badly needed functions plus
supliment existing ones quite easily as effectively. I was
told to bring it up again in a few months so here goes:
  How about a command that would allow switching the path
taken by internal codes generated by -write-s -writec-s
-show-s etc... from output processing to a set of variables:

zero    n6,2
outvar  on,n6,1
writec  flag, negative,zero,positive
write   ↓    $$cr
show    flag
outvar  off *zreturn or whatever giving ¬$ of codes outvared

In this case if flag is, -1 then n6=016050701241126057146
and n7= 034000000000000000000 with zreturn=11.
The implications of a command like this would be widespread
and consistant with existing string processing in TUTOR.↓Comments?

---------- response 1
  11/18     12.57     koning       csstaff

Nice... But I would not like to have zreturn count char-
acters here... (Maybe wcount a¬q la jcount?)

---------- response 2
  11/18     13.56     warner       iu

         There are problems with this idea: it works for
writes and shows, but what about draws, chars, and all the
other little niceties that make PLATO what it is today?
         I myself would like to see some user-accessible
variable giving the size of the contents of the TUTOR
output buffer, so that I can decide how long screen displays
might be broken or controlled during the lesson. This would
be especially handy for applications involving precise
timing, such as music-synthesizer lessons and animation.

---------- response 3
  11/18     14.12     bowery       comm

The only "problem" Silas points out is that he wants a
completely different function from the one I described.





  In fact it doesn't work with -write-s and -show-s in
the way he suggested. What you would like, Silas, would be
the key codes stored (which are the ones sent to the
terminal) rather than 6-bit internal codes used in
"internal" or software manipulations.

  This option might even used to do the inverse
of the internal-to-key-code conversion via -plot-.

Point well taken, koning, except -jcount- is used in
answer continjency.

Could a system's person versed in the feasibility of this
type of function give a response to the point at hand

---------- response 4
  11/18     14.35     frye       mfl

I personally like the idea. The write/writec/showx mach-
inery is, in its current structure, an excellent way to
conditionally generate strings -- provided you want to those
strings to show up on the screen! A method by which those
strings can be stored, altered, and re-displayed would be
a powerful addition to TUTOr.

Dave

---------- response 5
  11/18     15.17     rader       s

As we have said before, we certainly intend to provide such
a facility. Whether it is one command that is a cross-breed
of the -write- and -pack- commands (and -writec-), or a
separated buffer and -write- command, as proposed here, is
not yet fiexed. It will be done....

---------- response 6
  11/18     15.38     bowery       comm

Sorry to bring it up again but I could not locate the
note in old gen. notes where this was discussed. I searched
for about an hour.

Hopefully this will allow us access to the power of
the different formats of -show-s.
Beyond the -itoa- command.

---------- note 2 RED
  11/18     13.10     mosley       cstate

Lesson network is a good demo lesson, and shows a
list of all the terminal sites all over the united
states and Europe, but I feel it should be revised
soon to show all the new sites that have been com-
ing up recently. I saw yesterday that Norway has
been added to the PLATO network. This made me won-





der how many new sites have come up recently that
are not listed in "network". When ever I give a
deminstration I just give the people a figure and
am not sure if it is right. Can anyone give me
some info on this? It would be appreaciated....

---------- response 1
  11/18     13.14     golden       s

Lesson network is your best source. It lists all sites.
  You don't find Norway listed because it is a temporary
site. I don't know why people seem so unwilling to trust
network. In recent months (probably all this year), it has
been carefully updated very frequently.

---------- response 2
  11/18     15.09     mosley       cstate

Maybe someone could explain to me the site system.
I was not aware of temporary sites, or that lesson
network had been carefully brought up to date. I al-
ways thoought that sites were permant. It's not that
I don't trust "network", but I was just curious to see
why some of the sites that I saw added onto the system
were not in "network". I thought there were more les-
sons that were being shown in the lesson..............

---------- response 3
  11/18     17.40     berger       mfl

You may be using the term "site" wrong:

Any location that contains a terminal is a physical
"site" and in the cases that the terminal is not
expected to remain at that location for an extended
length of time, that site is temporary.

Now that terminal use has stablized somewhat, network





is pretty good.

---------- note 3 arpa/plato
  11/18     13.12     tenczar       s

I have a series of three final reports concerning the ARPA
Plasma Terminal: "The APT project was undertaken by the
UCSB Computer Systems Laboratory to determine whether the
Illinois Plasma terminal could be operated with the PLATO
system at the University of Illinois by way of the "packet-
switch" ARPANET and, alternatively, if the same terminal
could be used on the Network as a standard ASCII terminal
with graphics display capability.! They are available for
your eyeballs on the extra desk in my office--470 ERL.

They are:
ARPA Plasma Terminal Network Study and Conclusions*
   Report CSL-55
ARPA Plasma Terminal Hardware Description
   Report CSL-56
ARPA Plasma Terminal User's Information
   Report CSL-57

The principle Investigator was Roland F. Bryan
*cont.

---------- response 1
  11/18     13.17     tenczar       s

* the conclusion from report 55...
"Once a stand-alone minicomputer host, such as PDP-11, can
be dedicated to interconnecting of a multi_ported pLATO
Terminal Interface Unit to the ARPANET, the problems of
ICP's, multiple terminal operation, buffer sizes, and flow
control can be eliminaated. Further, since the machine
would be used for one purpose, programming, program changes,
and experimentation, could be readily carried on.
With a large number of test hours using PLATO CAI over the
Network we discovered that our single terminal was very
suitable for use in any lesson we chose. We did, however,
avoid lessons that required the student to react in a
certain amount of time and which effectively measured his
response time. These lessons make up a small portion of
the entire repertoire and the user who requires these must
go directly to PLATO. *cont*

---------- response 2
  11/18     13.21     tenczar       s

*cont*
"This will continue to be the case unless, through exper-
imentation and higher bandwidth on the Network, a way is
found to provide this "anticipatory" requirement.
With response time eliminated as a factor in the bulk of
lessons, or in other useable features such as graphics and
conferencing, there is no doubt that a finite set of users
or conferees could operate very well on PLATO through the
Network. They would also be able to make use of both
PLATO graphics and TENEX graphics (when it exists) in order





to confer.
Twelve production APTs have been delivered to USC-ISI. It
is hoped that their use for Network conferencing and a need
to bring the PLATO system onto the Net as an additional
resource, will lead to the improvements suggested in this
 document."

---------- response 3
  11/18     15.40     carter       comm

I think Paul is being diplomatic in not evaluating the
conclusions drawn. Packet-switching might be a good
way to transfer lesson material off-line between plato
systems. It is almost certainly a disaster when applied
on-line, between the plato user and the central computer,
for reasons that are obvious (2#50k/1200))=¬$of plato
terminals that would saturate ARPA lines,in the general
case. The only thing extra communications processors
and memory can do for you is slow down response time.
I hope potential buyers of this terminal are given a
demo under actual use (arpa) conditions, not plato
conditions(which are far superior).

---------- response 4
  11/18     21.42     carter       comm

This note is an example of a trend in NOTES of what
appears to me to be excessive politeness. If computer
based communication systems are ever going to be taken
seriously, people are going to have to feel free to say
what they think. Since there appears to be a natural
human instinct shy away from controversy, due perhaps
to mistaken notions about the purpose of advocacy, maybe
PLATO should consider means of encouraging free discussion.
One possibility would be to inhibit name and course
designations(on notes) from all readers except those
with a need to know(s,p,pso,e,a, etc). I haven't decided
myself whether this is better or worse, but I do think
it would encourage greater frankness and decrease the
occasional abusive comments (since name-calling without
names is impossible).

---------- response 5
  11/18     21.54     carter       comm

These anonyomous or "delphi" notes could have the following
advantages:

1) Would teach people to deal with ideas rather than
   personalities. Appeals to reason would increase,
   appeals to authority would decrease.

2) Would promote free discussion in cases where one's
   job supervisor or superior also used plato--if one
   was inhibited for reasons of job security.

3) Would promote free discussion in cases where one
   was psychologically inhibited due to a lack of
   confidence to present a position in the proper





   style. In short, hopefully substantive comments
   would increase, stylistic ones decrease.

---------- response 6
  11/18     23.18     michael       english

I'm afraid I have to disagree, George. Enough groups have
tried using anonymous notesfiles -- with sometimes disas-
trous results -- that it seems fairly well established that
anonymity does not encourage responsible discourse, at
least not in the PLATO environment. And the idea of keeping
names, but only showing them to systems personnel, would
tend to increase the resentment some people already have
towards system reserved powers. Perhaps something should
be done to increase such openness -- but I'm still burning
from the last time I expressed myself in NOTES in somewhat
less than temperate language.

---------- response 7
  11/19     08.36     mike b       cornell

        It seems to me that this suggestion is a two-edged
sword at best. For, while anonymity might encourage some to
speak more freely, it would simply encourage others to speak
more irresponsibly. And since, as michael/english pointed
out, name/course information would have to be eschewed alto-
gether, there would not be the inhibitions against abusive-
ness that there is now. In general, I think that the cur-
rent policy works quite well. And if, at times, people are
hesitant to say what they feel, that is more than counter-
balanced by the ease "signed" notes makes possible in con-
tacting other users.

    M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB

---------- response 8
  11/19     08.45     hanoka       ed

          But the fact still remains that if one wanted
          to speak out strongly on an issue that was
          highly controversial without actually using
          abusive language, he/she would still be looked
          down on/reprimanded by his superiors or by
          the people by which he is employed. One such
          reasoning for the employers to get upset is that
          they might not get the lesson spaces that they
          desire, or the certain system features that they
          desire if they had a person in their course that
          wrote controversial notes. They say that the
          they will not like such a person in their course
          because of the bad name that it gives the course
          or the project underway at the time.
          I think that those views are of people that are
          TOO closed minded. Notes should be as open to
          any view as it can.... mike

---------- response 9
  11/19     10.07     guerra       uimc





Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I read a note entitled
"arpa/plato", I expect to read a discussion about ARPA
and PLATO. Oh well...

---------- response 10
  11/19     14.10     tenczar       s

Carter may know some things...but he sure doesn't know
much about me. Me shy?!!!! I wish I was a bit shy!

---------- note 7 new report
  11/18     13.47     e avner       pso

New CERL report available:

"Auxiliary Mass Storage System" by Paul Tucker,
$4.80 per copy

Please see "aids" DATA-publications for information
on ordering publications.

     Elaine Avner

---------- note 13 grid
  11/18     15.24     gorun       skill

     How about a grid sheet on-line in edit mode?
Since I display text on various parts of the screen
it would be helpful if I could maybe term grid while
edition without leaving the block. It would give a
better perspective on how text is displayed.
 e.gorun

---------- response 1
  11/18     15.44     jim g       reading

Have you heard of -TERM- "cursor" or the ID and SD options
in the editor? ID and SD are explained on the editor help
pages.

---------- response 2
  11/18     18.45     anderer       ee

     Granted, that will accomplish the job. However, in many
cases in my experience, the grid suggested would have been
much easier. I know it can't have too high a priority,
but...???

       dg





---------- response 3
  11/18     18.54     michael       english

Since the position of a line on the line display page has
no relationship to where that same line will be displayed
on the screen when condensed, I fail to see how such a grid
could do anything put confuse new authors as to the true
screen location of the text.

---------- response 4
  11/18     19.01     anderep       ee

   Yea, now that I reread the original note, you're right.
What I would like is a grid that could be plotted thru
a -term- in student mode, or in ID and SD. There are
applications where this would be more convienent than
using the cursor.

           dg

---------- response 5
  11/18     19.13     k mast       p

        Sounds like a good (and simple to implement) idea.
Could you give me a copy of the grid you have in mind?

---------- response 6
  11/18     21.14     anderer       ee

  Answered via p-note.

---------- response 7
  11/19     15.23     gutfreund       cs196

i think it would be especially helpful in centering text
although i realize if everyone starts doing this it would
lead to more burnt out plasma panels....

---------- note 14 ¬0m...¬1
  11/18     15.31     rader       s

I am interested in trying to rationalize an ancient holdover
in the "embedded" commands--the embedded "mode" command.

As many authors have learned, the embedded "mode" command
only appears to be an embedded -mode- command: it really
talks directly to the formatter (via the well-known, but
not officially released keypresses) to change the mode of
the current character string. Since it is not a -mode-
command, it does not change the system's internal status
as to what "mode" you are writing in--your subsequent -show-
does not follow the mode you just thought you chose!

I propose that we simply install a true embedded -mode- --





and the question of course, is, to what extent are there
lessons that depend on the current definition?

---------- response 1
  11/18     18.06     curly       iu

   How about instead having both options
Have ¬0m,e¬1,¬0m,w¬1,¬0m,r¬1 work like they do now and have

   ¬0m,E¬1,¬0m,W¬1,¬0m,R¬1 perform a true mode change

I find the temporary effects of the embedded mode quite
useful in places. I also think it would be a great help
to have a embedded size that had but a temporary effect.

   Although I'm sure i could do it either way without too
much fuss.

             curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑^↑^↑^curly

---------- response 2
  11/18     18.28     michael       english

I have never yet found the current implementation of the
embedded mode command useful, although I have cursed often
because a true embedded mode was not available.

---------- response 3
  11/18     19.10     midden       p

Dear Michael,
   Ever done the following:
at      someplace
mode    erase
write   +
mode    write
at      someplace else
write   +

Its simple to use the following:

at      someplace
write   ¬0m,e¬1 +
at      someplace else
write   +

Perhaps I optimize execution speed too much, but the second
option works much faster.
       Marshall Midden

---------- response 4
  11/18     19.32     michael       english

I never know who to believe anymore, Marshall.....

*******  11/13     14.20     midden       p





Seriously, I discourage embedded commands whenever possible.
(unless its answer contiguent writing!) They are much slower
executing, and take more condense code, and are MUCH, MUCH
harder to understand....
      
           Marshall Midden

---------- response 5
  11/18     21.42     fortner       p

I have used :

write ¬0m,e¬1+

very very extensively...... besically cause it takes a heck
of a lot less time to type. If the action of this was
changed. i can think of 5 lessons right off that wouldnt
work anymore...

---------- response 6
  11/18     22.17     alan       reading

one "vote" for the ¬0m,E¬1..... idea

---------- response 7
  11/18     22.59     midden       p

*******  11/18     15.31     rader       s

As many authors have learned, the embedded "mode" command
only appears to be an embedded -mode- command: it really
talks directly to the formatter (via the well-known, but
not officially released keypresses) to change the mode of
the current character string. Since it is not a -mode-
command, it does not change the system's internal status
as to what "mode" you are writing in--your subsequent -show-
does not follow the mode you just thought you chose!
*
*
++++
Yes, since it isn't really a mode command.

Agreed it is one of those "always/never" errors.
But I do not really think of embedded mode as a command.

Next question: what other things that look like commands
aren't commands? cstop, cstop*, cstart, uh...

---------- response 8
  11/19     00.55     john r       reading

Aw c'mon Marshall. When you're caught with your own quote
you should at least be able to grin about it!

Besides, it isn't altogether clear to the non-systems person
that embedded modes execute faster/slower and generate





more/less code than their command counterparts.

The concept of ¬0m,e¬1 and ¬0m,E¬1 appeals to me as a
programmer, but the differences will certainly not be easy
explain to many people.

---------- response 9
  11/19     05.09     midden       p

Yes, I was grinning... of course I had to reply...

Right, the embedded mode command didn't appear obvious
as faster, etc until I extensive timing tests while
writing a cursor routine. (guess what for?)
      Marshall Midden
A≤B≤T≤O≤X≤C≤U≤V

---------- response 10
  11/19     08.10     parrello       uimatha

If you people take away SHIFT-'‎' '4' I'll kill myself...

---------- response 11
  11/19     09.38     rader       s

I do prefer keeping the use of the "mode --" keypresses
visible in TUTOr code--and to make such code independent
of the actual key values (not released...though known by
everybody!). So at worst we will convert ¬0m,e¬1 to ¬0?,e¬1.

---------- response 12
  11/19     11.06     friedman       csa

"?" seems like a good name for what the present so-called
embedded mode does.

---------- response 13
  11/19     11.53     j wilson       unidel

I like the idea of having a "temporary" embedded mode,
for reasons similar to Marshall's example. For me, an
ideal fix would be to have it last throughout the -write-,
regardless of other embeds (except other ¬0m¬1), although I
realize this would be difficult to implement, and, for
consistency, should apply to embedded -size- at well, which
would be more likely to disturb existing programs.

Having two types of embedded mode, as well as the real
-mode-, seems like unnecessary clutter and would be
difficult to explain.

---------- response 14
  11/19     12.48     fritz       ames

Ok, time to show my ignorance.





  Is the embedded mode faster (even tho embeds are slower
[!?!?]) because they don't "really" put the terminal
in mode xx? (Ie, does the shift ‎ x actually send the
appropriate parcel to the terminal?) If the shift ‎ x
DOES send the same parcel, I don't see how it can be
faster, and if it doesn't, how does it change the
terminal's mode? Is this coherent?

---------- response 15
  11/19     13.12     frye       mfl

No. The terminal is actually put in whatever mode you
specify (of course!), but is placed BACK into whatever mode
you were in before. It's not a question of what parcels
are sent to the terminal.....

Personally, I prefer the current form of the embedded mode.
I use the -mode- command for cases when the terminal is
"semi-permanently" in a particular mode, and the embedded
version for VERY temporary mode changes. It seems to me
that that's the way it should be.

Dave

---------- response 16
  11/19     18.00     fritz       ames

  Um, thanks Dave, but that still doesn't explain how the
slower-excecuting embeds can work faster in the case of
mode changes...

---------- response 17
  11/20     01.44     david       reading

It seems that ¬0m,e¬1 should designate a true mode change, but
that users have also found the current form quite useful.

How about running a conversion to change all existing
occurrences of ¬0m,e¬1 to something like ¬0tm,e¬1 (for temporary
mode) and then allowing the old form to designate that
true embedded mode change?

The embedded ¬0tm,e¬1 could be used for cursor routines or
whatever, and the ¬0tm,e¬1 / ¬0m,e¬1 distinction seems more
clear than between ¬0m,e¬1 / ¬0m,E¬1.

---------- response 18
  11/20     02.31     midden       p

The ¬0m, ¬1 is basically changed to the keys that people
use for animation. Thus there is no tutor command overhead.
only framatting time which you'd be charged for anyways.

---------- response 19
  11/20     09.18     gilpin       peer

The present embedded mode definitions apparently have





their uses, and the proposed new definitions clearly
would also. I think that there would not really be
serious difficulties explaining the differences between
the two...for the reason that the new definitions would
be easy to explain. and it would not be necessary to
explain the old ones to new authors. The difficulties
with new authors exist NOW, because the present embedded
mode definitions are strangely different from the other
embedded command definitions. An implementation like
that proposed by david/reading sounds good to me.

---------- response 20
  11/20     12.40     rader       s

Yes, the suggestion of david/reading looks like the
candidate for implementation. Thanks to all for the
discussion.

---------- note 19 linesetid
  11/18     16.03     bowery       comm

Could a lineset option be made active in ID?

---------- response 1
  11/18     16.48     midden       p

Question: you mean like SD a lineset command and then
a size command and then maybe some write statements?

Such will be available in the upcoming version.
(may saints preserve me and keep the bug ratio low)
     Marshall Midden

---------- response 2
  11/18     19.16     k mast       p

Notice Marshall said 'ratio', and didnt mention what he
was ratiating it too.

---------- response 3
  11/19     11.13     friedman       csa

I have also felt the need for a lineset in ID/SD, such that
I could "load" a lineset like a charset or micro is loaded,
and have the display in ID/SD act accordingly.

---------- note 22 Aids copy
  11/18     17.22     koning       csstaff

I can see why you want to discourage people from making
copies of pages of Aids (as discussed in notes before),
but I think it is too much to simply make it impossible
for a poor programmer who does not know all the keycodes
by hart and does not have his trusty Tutor manual handy,
to be unable to make a copy of the Aids page on that
subject, simply to avoid having to look at it (editor





Qkeycodes) 10 times because of not having a photographic
memory. I would suggest that the message be considered a
warning message and that those who copy Aids pages in
spite of it will be able to do so, without trouble if it
is for the reason stated, or with if it is for the purpose
of making unlawful copies.

---------- response 1
  11/18     17.35     marty smith       orl

well, send the police down and haul me away, pso group.

i personally have copied all the info concerning -reader-,
-dataset-. system defined variables, and keycodes.

who's paying the pso group's wages, anyways?

---------- response 2
  11/18     18.26     golden       s

To a considerable extent, the people of the State of
Illinois--but that isn't relevant!

An author has rights to his work no matter who pays him. He
may be forced to assign the financial rewards to someone
else, but the praise, blame, and other returns remain his.

It will never be morally acceptable to copy a creative work
without permission from and credit to its creator! At least
for now, it isn't legal either.

---------- response 3
  11/18     18.54     jim       pso

as i stated in a previous note (general note ¬$79, resp ¬$3):

          many users have requested permission to copy
          displays from AIDS for various reasons. _no_
          request has ever been denied.

--please see the above response for further discussion--

---------- response 4
  11/18     19.08     hody       med

ok-- let's agree pso has the right to withold copying
rights-- why on earth do they?!
*
if the copies become rapidly out of date, that is skin
off the copiers' noses --not ps0's! it is absolutely
incomprehensible to me why any and all the useful
displays in aids are not available in any form to anyone
anytime... and without special dispensation from the 
popes.
*





(i do agree that publication of same in scholarly
journals should be done only with proper credits and
permission-- but copies for personal use?! why in heck
not?!)
*
bear in mind that some people have limited access to a
terminal or line and need to study hard copy off line!

---------- response 5
  11/18     19.56     koning       csstaff

The reason for my note was not that I am disgusted about
the fact that pso wants to keep everyone from copying
everything in Aids, because I am not: that is their good
right. It is not because I can't get the information,
because it is available. It is just that it would be
convenient (and no more than that) to have a machine
handy that can in seconds provide me with a printed
copy of a useful page like the keycodes. The alternative
for a user is to (a) go to pso if anyone is in,
(b) to write it down from the display,
(c) to switch back¬+forth 10 times between editor and
Aids in 5 minutes, (d) to tie up 2 terminals.

---------- response 6
  11/18     20.16     jim       pso

a)    --- there are PSO staff members are CERL at least
          60 hrs / week
b)    --- 2 minutes of your time to decide what you want
c)    --- entering AIDS 10 times in 5 minutes is no problem,
          its done on a regular basis
d)    --- you would only use the varian terminal, not 2.

---------- response 7
  11/18     20.56     john r       reading

There is an interesting question here. If PSO is
restricting print ability out of pure cussedness, shame on
them.But if they know something the rest of us don't
(e.g. that to protect copyright in some possible future
legal battle, they must show that a strong effort was made
to restrict distribution), the rest of us should probably
take a page from their book (with due credit of course)
and put course/name/station restrictions on all our lessons
to keep them from being copied at will by potential
copyright thieves.

---------- response 8
  11/18     21.08     woolley       p

Why don't we make it easier and just put a check in the
system software to prevent the varian terminal from
entering any lessons at all?

----------- response 9
  11/18     22.19     alan       reading





one "vote" for Woolley's idea

---------- response 10
  11/19     08.47     hanoka       ed

          In that respect, why not put a check on every
          terminal from going into any lesson so someone
          cant snap of  35mm photos of the screen?

          mike

---------- response 11
  11/19     09.30     john r       reading

There is a difference. Letting people copy your stuff on
the Varian right in the heart of CERL is analogous
to a publisher handing you a new book and leaving you with
his company's Xerox machine.

---------- response 12
  11/19     10.22     lombardo       ed

what's the difference between leaving you with his company
xerox machine and giving you the book and saying there is
a xerox next door, use it. I'm with Hody, if we need the
stuff let's have at it, it is there for our benefit anyway,
and as long as no one tries to pirate the stuff for profit
who cares. There is a distinct difference between allowing
access for personal use and allowing people to copy it for
monetary (or whatever) reprinting.

---------- response 13
  11/19     11.43     john r       reading

Is that a firmly grounded legal opinion? If so, there is
a whole regimant of lawmakers who could use your advice.

The point of many recent discussions of copyright has been
that the exact consequences of being relaxed about
copying are not known since the old copyright laws don't
deal well with modern technology and the new copyright laws
haven't been written. In such an atmosphere a very conser-
vative stance is more likely to preserve legal rights than
a give-away-the-store stance.

---------- response 14
  11/19     12.32     hody       med

having read carefully the excellent discussions by
maggs and others on the subject of copyrights. i can
see no conflict between going through the steps necessary
to protect "aids" against theft by outside interest and
permitting plato users to copy without individual permis-
sion sections of aids that they need.
*





that right, peter m.?

---------- response 15
  11/19     13.03     jones       mcl

I worked for a timesharing firm (Com Hsare inc) that had
what is probably the most conservitive possible
interpretation of the copyright laws, and also probably
the most defensable should any question ever arise about
rights to some material.

Any translation of material from one medium to another
was considered to be an instance of publication, even if
one of the media was transient, such as orange dots or
green glow on a crt, as well as less transient things
such as teletype (or terminet) printout.

To support this view, they had a royalty system that could
be attached to any user program that would make an automatic
per use charge. Any user with copyrighted material who
wanted to make it pubic could ask that this royalty
mechanism be attached to his program, and specify the use
charge to be made (Title or introduction pages were
encouraged to contain notice of this).

---------- response 16
  11/19     13.07     frye       mfl

I must admit that I'm just a little baffled at all the flak
over a copying problem. What's the problem with contacting
a PSO person, and asking her or his permission to COPY (i.e.
varian, photograph) pages of Aids? And you can _a__l__w__a__y__s_ write
down the simpler stuff, like keycodes, etc....there's no law
against that!

This is really a waste of NOTES space...

Dave

---------- response 17
  11/19     13.56     hody       med

wait a darn minute- what is the philosophical or ethical
difference between using a paper and pencil to make a copy
and having a high speed machine do it? and it is a total
absurdity to hunt down a pso person everytime you
need a personal copy of a page or two of aids to use
offline--
*
as for that accounting system jones outlined--
** shudder **

---------- response 18
  11/19     15.32     celia       pso

I can't believe that finding aids authors to ask permission
is that much of a problem. Every weekday we are here from
8:00 am to 6:00 pm, and very frequently at nights and on





weekends. If we are not on-line, we are near the phone,
3-cerl. A p-note can reach us within 24 hours.

As Jim has said, no requests to copy aids have ever
been denied. If you need copies, please ask.

---------- response 19
  11/19     15.58     jim g       reading

Well, to liven up the discussion here is a relevant quote.
" leave it to the PLATO turkeys to come up with something"
This wisdom mouthed by an operator as he realized someone
(we won't mention names) was beating the terminal 9-7
lockout by using monitor mode.

---------- response 20
  11/20     09.09     bruce iehl       mtc

My first critique of the whole thing is that the
programming is very sloppy. I mean, not only does it not
prohibit making copies, it makes it harder to _use_ aids
if you happen to be sitting at that terminal. If you can't
write a better program that that -- don't write any!

---------- response 21
  11/20     15.47     fay       o

?

---------- note 41 sturgecs2
  11/18     20.16     marty smith       mtc

Are we EVER going to be able to access/write student
records into a course??!! The reason I ask is this:

As it stands now, I have alot of information being stored
in student variables, and from that information, i would
like to store other information in their variables.

I know you all are going to cry that it would involve a
disc access or two, but to get around the inadequacies
of this system. i have a lesson which stores information
in a dataset. The author (instructor) goes into this
lesson, checks to see what is/isn't there, puts it in,
sets a flag in the index block. the student signs in,
a disk access is done to check the flag, the info is
transferred, etc.

This procedure takes 2 or 3 disc accesses, but if we
could access student records directly, accessing time
could be avoided/lessened.↓ ↓PLEASE?

---------- response 1
  11/18     21.10     k mast       p

         Yes, you will someday be able to write student





records back to the disk. When and how has yet to be
resolved.

---------- response 2
  11/19     10.04     marty smith       mtc

thanks, finally, for a response.

---------- note 42 return ll
  11/18     20.24     jim       pso

            please ---- please

put some way to RETURN the LESLIST to the disk. changes
made about 15 minutes before the last crash were never
returned to the disk. about 20 changes were made to a
long -leslist- which is freqently in ECS. after these
changes were made and in use in AIDS, the system failed.

fortunately i had most of the edits written down on a
piece of paper. changes were made with the system leslist
editor.

---------- response 1
  11/19     12.34     curly       iu

  Good Idea!......

           curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑^↑^↑^curly

---------- response 2
  11/22     09.49     levy       mcl

Another vote in favor or the idea! MCL had the same
problem (probably at time of same crash), with same
npleasant consequences.

---------- note 54 user type
  11/18     23.12     david       reading

Is there any reason why one cannot just type "a", "s",
"m", or "i" at the user type arrow in course records?

---------- response 1
  11/19     10.17     nate       iumusic

  Do I detect a note of lazyness here? However, it sure
would be nice.

               a lazy plato-user.

---------- note 64 site rest
  11/19     09.51     berger       mfl

In the "site" restriction lists, can we have some





way to toggle user type flags, in case one is set
accidentally?

Currently, one has to back out from "enter" mode
and use the "change" directive.

---------- response 1
  11/19     18.03     b sherwood       s

Is that really so hard to do? Toggling would presumably
be done by hitting the key again, as in partialling blocks?

---------- note 71 firsterase
  11/19     11.36     john r       reading

unit    a
arrow   810
enable
long    1
force   firsterase
exact
write   ho
judge   no
touch
write   hi
judge   no

-force firsterase- does not work for touch inputs, nor for
other forms of input that leave jcount set to 0. is this
a known bug, a new feature, or a longstanding feature?

---------- response 1
  11/19     12.01     white       p

This is a long standing oversight that should
be easy to fix.

---------- note 72 10^6 hours
  11/19     11.41     avner       s

At 11:18 today (19 November) we went over 1,000,000
terminal hours for the year (counting both prime and
non-prime usage since 1 January). Al Avner

---------- response 1
  11/20     08.16     maggs       law

How does that compare to other CAI systems?

---------- response 2
  11/20     08.49     avner       s

Comparisons would have to be in terms of orders of
magnitude. There are simply no other systems running
this many terminals in a true CAI mode.





---------- response 3
  11/20     11.38     hody       med

well... that was said at adcis and a guy from ibm 
promptly flew to his feet screaming that an "in house"
ibm system which uses the (** ugh **) coursewriter 
language, runs over 650 terminals simultaneoulsy.
*
he could not be pinned to a literature reference or
to a definition of simultaneously (except that perhaps
the response time was usually less than a second)...
the system is used for in house cai.
*
obviously that system is not comparable to plato 
--capability-wise... however perhaps it does run
a lot of hours economically-- who can tell?
*

---------- response 4
  11/20     17.08     golden       s

We have never heard of any system that could run 650
terminals in coursewriter simultaneously.
But, the real question is how much is it used whatever its
capacity. I don't think any other system approaches a
million hours per year.

The 18,000 hours per year on the Health Education Network
is far more typical of a "big" CAI effort.

---------- response 5
  11/20     22.08     hody       med

as has been pointed out by golden and others, the
health education network (formerly the listerhill
network) is successful only if not used too much--
if too many users try to run, most get busy signals.

---------- response 6
  11/21     08.31     avner       s

IBM has for years also claimed many hundreds of hours of
in-house CAI lessons (again with no documentation or
further information given out to anyone outside IBM as
to precisely what the material is like, where it runs, or
where it was developed). I am perfectly willing to believe
them but if it is all that secret and they are not
releasing any information on lessons learned in supporting
such a large network why do they continue making these
public claims?

---------- note 73 holiday
  11/19     11.42     kolinsky       e459

To whoever writes those wonderful Halloween and Mickey
Mouse's Birthday notes, THANK YOU! You really make my
day! Muriel





---------- response 1
  11/19     12.24     k mast       p

  Thanks for your comments, the PSDC (Plato Special
Display Committee) is always happy to hear compliments on
their displays.

  A variety of people have done the work -- the
Halloween display was designed and implemented by Bonnie
Anderson and Marshall Midden. The Mickey Mouse Clock was
designed by Mickey Mouse.

  We welcome displays for any special occasions,
please contact me if you have a display you would like
implemented.

---------- note 83 keytops
  11/19     13.09     friedman       csa

Authors who find charset keytops from lesson cslibrary
useful may be interested in looking into lesson keytops,
where an incomplete version of lineset keytops resides
TEMPORARILY. When complete, this lineset will have both
a straight copy of the charset, and also a single-keypress-
per-keytop version. It will then be copied into lesson
cslibrary, and lesson keytops will be discarded.↓
In making this conversion, I had to make consecutive
characters connect properly. For the benefit of other
lineset designers, let me point out that the problem of
connectivity between linechars was solved by putting all
the key outline into a single linechar, and all of any
individual letter into a single linechar; the result is
full connection in all sizes, although some linechars are
outside the "standard" 8#16 grid for a single character.
Thanks to Sellers for the basic suggestion. Works fine.

---------- response 1
  11/19     14.18     fortner       p

Notice that another way to solve the connecting problem
is to use the ending position template option (option 2,
second page ). If this is set to 7,0 ( one dot less than
normal (8,0) then there is an overlap of one dot and it
connects in most cases.

---------- response 2
  11/20     12.23     friedman       csa

see note ¬$133.

---------- note 85 binaries
  11/19     13.18     dave fuller       uimc

  Regarding lesson binaries -- I made some changes
to a lesson last night, apparently while binaries were not





being collected. Naturally, through the course of the
testing. I recondensed the lesson, and left thinking that
all my changes would be in effect for today. It looks as
if we are relying on binaries that are somewhat ancient,
and the copy of the lesson I get reflects the version of
the lesson _before_ I changed it last night.
      While my particular instance was non-critical. it
could be disasterous in some situations.
      Systems, operators?

---------- response 1
  11/19     14.11     rader       s

This indeed can happen; we have not yet worked out a
solution to this proglem.

---------- response 2
  11/19     14.43     dave fuller       uimc

      Thanks...

---------- response 3
  11/19     22.50     bonnie       matha

...and thanks, Dave, for the warning!

---------- note 86 arrow loca
  11/19     13.29     david       reading

How about a system's response to the often repeated request
for a user available reserved word containing the location
of the current arrow. Isn't it already stored somewhere
anyway?

---------- note 94 lineset
  11/19     15.40     steinberg       mathw

Are you going to put an option on the author mode page to
let you inspect a lineset like you can currently inspect
a charset?

---------- response 1
  11/19     16.32     harkrader       o

Try using lesson 'lineset'.

---------- response 2
  11/20     07.38     steinberg       mathw

thanks

---------- note 95 cond n/a
  11/19     15.45     berger       mfl





condensEr not available again...

---------- note 97 x-search
  11/19     16.01     hinton       ssu

Would it be possible to have the X-search routine take you
to the first instance of a string in the lesson. as the
Condense Error routine will take you to the error ≤, if you
want to go there ?

ndh

---------- response 1
  11/19     17.32     sherman       mcl

try using the regular X string search directive
and pressing shift next. (on the internal listings
pages)

---------- response 2
  11/19     20.41     hinton       ssu

Well. I know about the X-search within a block, and also
about the new expanded internal X-search. I meant that it
would be useful to be able to go from the lesson-wide X-
search, off the block listing page, to the first instance
of the string that is found by the search, rather than
exiting from the X-search mechanism to the block listing
page. As it works now, you find the block listing of the
string,then go to the block and do an X-search (or a c-
search,as the case may be) all over again. I'm not com-
plaining about the feature: far from it. Just thinking of
making it handier.

---------- note 104 comconvert
  11/20     00.36     koning       csstaff

It would save a lot of grief if the "convert common to
source" feature would automatically remove the comman from
ecs (or give an error if it is in use). This would avoid
problems like converting a common to source, editing the
source, then using the common again without an error
message, because the common is still in ecs although there
is no longer a common block in the lesson it came from.

By the way, what happens at present when the system tries
to write the common in ecs back to disk? Does it discover
that the common block in the lesson is no longer a common
block and abort the update, or does it wipe out my source,
or what?

---------- response 1
  11/20     07.56     david       hebrew

The update is not done (since the common is all dressed
up with no place to go); your source remains intact (small
consolation since you wanted the updated results anyway).





There is apparently some type of error that can be detected
on the system level; if you try and return a common
that no longer exists when you hit _R_ on the author mode
page. it says "Error in returning common"

---------- note 111 Slave
  11/20     09.02     nichols       pfw

I was wondering is it possible to slave more than one
terminal? I give alot of demos and its hard if you have a
large group of people to get them all around one or two
terminals. Currently i use just two terminals and slave
one using talk options.
 If such a thing is not available now,will it ever be?
It sure would help when giving demos.

thanx
Richard Nichols II

---------- response 1
  11/20     09.38     perry       uw

   I have heard that the Foreign Language Building has
such a thing. I think they do it by connecting several
terminals to one port of their modem.

   You might contact someon from course mfl for the
details.

---------- response 2
  11/20     11.06     mcneil a       uicc

Send a pnote to mcdaniel - uimc. He has such a device
to slave 4 terminals. AL9000

---------- response 3
  11/20     12.19     golden       s

I'm not sure about the newest terminals, but the older
ones could be slaved by simply connecting the input
terminals with a pair of wires. Two pairs of terminals
could be connected that way, then one pair could monitor the
other for a total of four terminals with common output.

---------- response 4
  11/20     12.45     copeland       pfw

I'm impressed nuckles

---------- response 5
  11/20     13.00     ebeling       research

      The best way to slave terminals together is to
use one line and buffer it before sending it to the
other terminals. The 3rd floor lab built the unit





that McDaniels is using now. It can support up to
8 extra terminals. If you would like such a box
contact either myself or Roger Johnson at CERL and
it could be made (cost is about $50).
    I might add that if others have questions
concerning add on 'boxes' I will be happy to answer
the questions and supply possible sources. Also
lesson -peripheral- has ideas and answers on some
of these devices.
FRED

---------- response 6
  11/20     14.52     kaufman       uimc

Two comments about the box that Fred Ebling built.

1) After we got it, the terminals needed to be adjusted
(balanced?) before the box worked.

2) After this adjustment was made, the box was run
for two days. Near the of the second day, the
box broke. The box was taken away for repair. It has
not be seen since that day (sometime last June.)

     Joe Kaufman

---------- response 7
  11/21     16.25     payne       e

We have a printed circuit board layout for a slaving
device, as well as drawings for a self-contained box which
can operate a master and 5 slaves. At FLB we have
permanently installed a device using three boards, giving
us the ability to operate 3 simultaneous slaved groups
or larger groups of 10 or 15 terminals. If interested,
leave a p-note for payne of e.

---------- note 112 Thanks
  11/20     09.07     olson       ced

I have written an Instructional Resources Catalog which
contains all of our available material from Audio Cassettes,
to Video Tapes. It is comprised of eight, two-part lessons
which roughly contain 13,000 computer words of space.
The reason for saying all this:? I would like to get
down on my knees and thank any and all concerned for the
new X-search lesson. When someone says to me, do you have
anything on Cancer of the Lungs. I type Cancer on the
object to be searched, and, well, you know the rest.
Thanks again for a job well done.

      Dennis Olson

---------- response 1
  11/20     11.28     maggs       law

This is the sort of use that is going to get our X-search
taken away from us.





---------- response 2
  11/20     11.36     olson       ced

For ...... sakes, Please explain

---------- response 3
  11/20     12.08     friedman       csa

It depends on how often he does it....

---------- response 4
  11/20     13.01     berger       mfl

But for an explanation: every time the X search must
go past block boundaries, it does a disk access.

The system can only support a limited number of disk
accesses for each user in a given period of time.

If it is found that the X search is consuming a large
number of disk accesses, it will be taken away.

On the other hand, doing the same lesson with datasets
might consume the same number of disk accesses anyway.

---------- response 5
  11/20     13.07     olson       ced

I know where Cancer should be located in one of the eight
lessons. I do not search all eight lessons, only the one
in which I believe what I'm looking for is located.
If this still causes problems, then maybe I'm premature in
my thanks.

DˇO

P.S. It's very hard to get a kind word out of anyone on
the Plato system. Everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon
with critizism and no one takes time to thank anyone for
anything. It's really too bad, Plato has tremendous
possibilities.

---------- response 6
  11/20     13.37     gilpin       peer

It only seems that way...I see no bandwagon here: maggs'
response was mild and cautionary, pointing to a possible
drawback of you suggested kind of use. I do not read
either the freidman or the berger response as especially
critical. Consider your experience in this case along
side that of the recent introduction of linesets, which
was met with a torrent of suggestions/complaints/quibbles/
demands. It _is_ a little hard to get used to, but that is
the way the system progresses. If maggs' comment does
apply, you should be glad to find it out now rather than
later, when you have an even larger investment in your





method. // I do agree with you that kind words are rarer
on the system than they might be, and I notice that the
purpose of your original note was to express appreciation.
You're right, there could be more of that.

---------- response 7
  11/20     13.44     judy       pso

If Olson must frequently answer questions of the type,
"What is there about lung cancer?", it would probably be
worthwhile to invest the time needed to make a vocabs and
concept lesson which would answer. It could be very
primitive....
concept  cancer
write    Cancer materials
                 lung:  lesson 8, block1
                 lymph:  lesson2, blocks 3 ¬+ 4
                         lesson3, block 12
                 skin:  lesson 8, block 2

or very elegant ....
concept lung cancer
write   Lung Cancer
          Slides: "title" ¬+ location
          Pamphlets: "title" ¬+ location
          Related Topics:   ........
        and so on.
If the questions are not frequent. then X-search seems ok.

---------- response 8
  11/20     14.11     olson       ced

Some misunderstanding seems apparent.

Physicians and students will call us on the telephone and
ask, what do you have on "medical ethics" or "hangnails"
This envolves a long, page by page search through a hard-
cover catalog. Using Plato to search for us thgough the
catalog I've written, takes only a minute or so and we
can often put the person on hold while we search. I mean
no disrespect with regard to people who critize, its their
right, I mean only that they are quick to do so without
finding out the problem. Judy/pso solution isn't practical.
I took the X-search lesson to be used for what I'm using it
for and saw no warnings as to disc access, CPU etc....
What I don't know seems to hurt me in this case.

DˇO

---------- response 9
  11/20     15.36     golden       s

The suggestion by Judy (pso) would reduce the search time
from tens of seconds to milliseconds and put virtually no
load on the system. It would also allow any number of users
to consult the database at once and could easily be used
by the students or instructors themselves. Of course it
would require some more work on your part to enter the data.
Since you have already entered the data once, it is under-





standable if you are reluctant to change now....but it
is something to think about for the future.

Getting back to your original note, we do appreciate the
words of thanks from users. It is possible to tell that
a new feature is liked from the extent to which is used, but
a few words also helps.

---------- response 10
  11/20     19.34     jones       mcl

Most text editing systems that I have had much contact
with, from the PLATO editor to TECO on the PDP-10, or QED,
the grandaddy of many interactive editors, have evolved
to the point where they make reasonable data base managers.
They may even be the best for some light applications, but
are rarely efficient for large scale systems.↑ˇ↑ˇ
On the other hand. the concept scheme, with the data base
embodied in the lesson text, though it is fast, is not
very flexible. If this is to become a prodoction system,
with frequent updates and retrieval requests, some dataset
based system would proobably be best, using the
vocab/concept mechanism for the indexing. This would
require only 1 disc access per info. request.↑ˇ↑ˇ
Such a scheme might even make a valuable system resource,
many thigs such as a current index of all public lessons
could be managed automaticly, thus freeing time now spent
by pso.

---------- note 114  lineset
  11/20     09.12     silver       ve

Could an option to display a microfiche slide be added to
the large character display in -lineset-? This would enable
a user to trace a microfiche drawing. I have also found
it convenient to turn the light on when tracing a drawing
from a plastic sheet placed on the plasma panel. Otherwise,
it is almost impossible to see the lines on the plastic,
against the black of the panel.

---------- response 1
  11/20     09.13     olson       ced

Good idea

---------- response 2
  11/21     05.34     al       mflu

Unless I misunderstand the purpose of them, lineset were
meant to solve the problem of sized fonted characters, not
to replace draw and rdraw.

---------- note 116 last editr
  11/20     09.18     friedman       csa

In lesson "accounts", the new option to change security
codes changes the last-edited-by information. Could it





therefore display this information, so that we could see
who had edited last before the code word is changed?
This can be important information. (There is plenty of
room on the screen to display it.)

---------- response 1
  11/20     10.08     andersen       s

Good idea.

---------- response 2
  11/20     10.40     michael       english

One other minor thing about accounts. Since most of it
is simply administrative stuff, and I at least use the
Varian quite frequently to save pages of it, could all
pages in the accounts lesson give the current date and
possible even time?

---------- response 3
  11/20     11.30     maggs       law

How about a term like term calc that can be accessed any-
where -- term date.

---------- response 4
  11/20     12.04     koning       csstaff

Or make T on author mode page give the day also.

---------- response 5
  11/20     12.10     friedman       csa

That last would not help identify Varian-ed pages, but
is a good idea in itself.

---------- response 6
  11/20     13.02     berger       mfl

Or how about a "printout" option for many of the pages
in "accounts?"

---------- note 119 touch paws
  11/20     09.39     cnb       faa

If possible I would like to see provision made to specify a
list of touch areas in the -pause keys= machinery (which
includes -group- command). At this time -pause .75, keys=a-
will pause the full .75 sec unless "a" is pressed; I would
like to see -pause .75,keys=o436- be able to pause the
full time unless the specific area is touched.

Any chance of something along these lines getting
implemented in the near future?





Thanks, Craig Burson

---------- response 1
  11/20     10.08     andersen       s

Something like this is planned and may be available soon.

---------- response 2
  11/20     12.06     warner       iu

How about -ext- keys, too? Can we someday have them
includable with group names?

---------- note 122 reminder
  11/20     10.18     golden       s

Reminder: No prime-time Thanksgiving day and the Friday
and Saturday following.

---------- response 1
  11/20     11.53     rader       s

And some further details:
We expect to close the PLATO classroom (rm 165) and the
operator's office Thanksgiving day, and Friday 0000-0800.

---------- note 132 keytops
  11/20     12.07     friedman       csa

Authors who find charset keytops from lesson cslibrary
useful may be interested in looking into lesson keytops,
where two lineset versions of keytops reside
TEMPORARILY.↓
There is a writeup in block a of the lesson explaining
the lineset blocks "keytops" and "keytops2".↓
One or both of these linesets will be copied soon into
lesson cslibrary, and lesson keytops will be discarded.↓

---------- note 146 ecs graph
  11/20     14.50     jim g       reading

Yes folks you too can watch a graph of must/mallot for
your site for the astonishing low price of 137 words ECS
and 2.6 TIPS. The graph plots for 7 long minutes and gives
you graphical information every second. It also cleans the
screen (without harmful solvents) every 7 minutes to give
you a brand new electronic computor readout. For more
details on this generous offer see file "perc32".
This PERC product is better than "rash" by at least
2 TIPS and untold amounts of valuable ECS. The manufacturer
does not guarantee the accuracy of the systems variables
"must" and "mallot" used by the computor program. This
offer void in states where such offers are prohibited by
law!





---------- response 1
  11/20     16.46     nate       iumusic

   What is the gift-tax on such a feature as this?
Does this come with a one-year guarantee? Has Ralph
Nader approved this lesson yet? Are your claims accurate?

temporarily representing the
consumers movement,
Nate

---------- response 2
  11/20     17.30     rich       cs196

    I prefer "ghetto" myself...

---------- response 3
  11/20     19.05     ian       conn

"untold amounts of ECS"?

192 vs. 137 isn't that much!

(i will give you the valuable TIPS, though)

ian

---------- response 4
  11/20     23.04     sherman       mcl

try lesson "medstatus" for an alternative. it graphs
muse vs. mallot and you can set the time axis to whatever
timescale you want.

---------- note 150 stnd micro
  11/20     16.33     jim       pso

there use to be a "standard" micro table in lesson "micro".
a -micro micro,standard- would load the standard table.

where did that standard micro table go to?

showing my chars (H option) gives me ¬D≤¬,a↑≡≤↑≠¬D≤¬,. pressing FONT
a MICRO FONT is judged "no", but FONT a SHIFT-SQUARE FONT is
"ok". i assigned SHIFT-SQUARE to MICRO in a micro table,
but that doesn't fix it. i just need to load the standard
micro table or assign SHIFT-SQUARE to MICRO. how is that
done?

        refer to lesson characters, block 2-f.

---------- response 1
  11/20     16.37     dave fuller       uimc





      Is "standard" in lesson microtable what you need?

---------- response 2
  11/20     16.53     white       p

I thought that particular documentation in AIDS was
quite interesting:

"To load the standard micro table, load micro,standard."

Which works because when you try to load any non-existant
micro table, you get the standard one. Was there ever
a "micro,standard"?

I don't see why you use your own (strange) micro
table in that example. Why can't you use the
standard micro table?

---------- response 3
  11/20     19.12     jim       pso

yes --- micro microtable,standard is what i wanted.

also the default of the standard microtable is fine, but
wouldn't a more consistant method be a -micro- with no
tag......

thanks --- changed AIDS to read lesson
microtable instead of micro. is a "catalogue"
of micro tables needed? this could be in AIDS.

comments?

---------- response 4
  11/20     20.09     blomme       s

   Just a note with regard to potential problems:
the "standard" table that is in lesson microtable is
NOT the one used by the system when it provides a
standard table by default. I have no idea just how
many entries are different, but I note that the system
micro table was last edited a few days ago and the
"standard" one was last edited over a year ago. The
changes have been small in number and should not have
a dire impact on anyone, but we should try to straighten
this out in the near future.

---------- response 5
  11/20     21.30     dave fuller       uimc

        It would seem a 5 minute change and related
documentation would be handy. Unfortunately, since





the micro feature is the most untapped resource on
the system, they don't get the attention of the
better supported charsets/linesets, etc. A pity.
        A micro library would be appreciated, AIDS
people. Any hope of a useful micro editor being im-
plemented eventually?

---------- response 6
  11/20     21.58     david       reading

It would be nice if the micro library (yes, we need one)
contained a micro that mapped all keys to themselves.
As a template, it could save a lot of time.

---------- response 7
  11/21     11.52     gilpin       peer

when/if there are resources available to spend on key-
related work, a means for restricting the keys that will
work at an -arrow- (there are means available for similar
restriction at a -pause-), would be extremely helpful.
this can be accomplished now, but only at the cost of a
microtable block for each different restriction desired.

---------- response 8
  11/21     12.15     john r       reading

What's wrong with

arrow  1010
ok
judge  key=not-the-one-i-want,ignore,continue

It's not as elegant as a keylocked arrrow, but it would
certainly be less cumbersome than a one-entry microtable.

---------- response 9
  11/21     14.31     gilpin       peer

the problem is to have an -arrow- that has all the usual
powers with respect to answer judging, but which accepts
only designated keys while ignoring others altogether.
when the response to be accepted is of arbitrary type (when,
say, it is a sentence), the suggested structure using
-judge- becomes unwieldy.

---------- response 10
  11/21     19.05     b parrello       med

Microtable "normal" in lesson "news" has all the keys mapped
to themselves. Please contact me via pnotes if you wish
to have a copy.

---------- note 156 red tape
  11/20     17.49     wegner       phar





it sure would be nice if one could get a hold of lessons
in a particular area without going through all kinds of
red tape. Its kind of nice when someone askes if there
is a lesson in an area to be able to find one quickly.
personally i dont think that, that many of the authors dont
want it to be that difficult to find out the name of their
lesson so people can look at it. With the addition of a
"condense code" which would be left OPEN TO ALL when the
felt it was ready for public viewing and a password when
the lesson was being repaired. It also could be used to
limit the scope of users at the same time if desired.
WEG

---------- response 1
  11/20     21.21     clegg       ames

Interesting--I was just giving this some thought not
more than an hour ago. From my reading of the literature
one of the major problems facing CAI is the production
and dissemination of quality learning materials (just
happen to have one reference right here with me: Anastasio,
Ernest and Morgan, Judith. Factors Inhibiting the Use of
Computers in Instruction. EDUCOM, l972).
It would seem that PLATO has a tremendous advantage for
easy distribution of lessons. My question is: Is anyone
doing a study to see how much cross-utilization there is
between sites? Are we duplicating efforts, or are authors
evaluating, revising, and improving what has already
been done?
Janet Clegg

---------- response 2
  11/20     21.38     mike       cornell

At Cornell we use a large catalog of lesson names to solve
this problem partially. We can first make a cursory search
with this, before bothering anybody else. Also, by looking
at whatever does exist, we might find out who knows exactly
what has been done. Again, unfortunately, this is only a
partial solution.

Mike Huybensz

---------- response 3
  11/20     22.17     john r       reading

And it's not peculiar to computer-based materials. The
card catalog of any large library is persuasive evidence
that man is a creature who loves loves loves redundancy or
that each individual man thinks he can do the job better
than it's ever been done before.

It is surprising, by the way, how good a refernce resource
lesson -topics- is.

---------- response 4
  11/21     00.05     hody       med

the major problems with cai are the cost and difficult





of producing quality materials and then presenting
them to students at reasonable cost on a realistic
schedule. the acceptance of cai by faculty and
administrations as a viable learning medium is also
a severe problem and finally, it is difficult to
get people to share materials, particularly between
systems.
*
cataloging is certainly an important issue, but let's
keep it in perspective!

---------- response 5
  11/21     08.42     avner       s

This is the problem that the idea of "published" lessons
is trying to solve. However, until legal arrangements are
complete, CERL has a moral obligation to protect the
interests of those who have prepared lesson materials (CERL
because any other organization would have a great deal of
difficulty in providing a complete catalog of PLATO
material). Another consideration is that much of the
material is now in a final (or earlier) draft stage rather
than in a finished and polished state. With any medium,
draft materials are used only with direct permission of
the author--hence the listings like "topics" which allow
access to names of who is doing what rather than access to
the lessons themselves.

---------- response 6
  11/22     23.20     lombardo       ed

This problem of accessability to the neophyte has been one
that I have really been interested in. I attempted to
write an aviation index and have it listed in a lesson
to be named "aviation" which would be the logical naive
guess for someone who is trying to see if there are any
such lessons on the system. It met with positive response
on the part of the authors concerned but with negative
response on the part of CERL people. I was told that I
could give up my own lesson space for it but none would
be supplied. Understand the lack of space creates
problems and I am undoubtably overemphasizing the need for
such an index but being very concerned about the vast
potential for plato and the naive subject I wish space could
be made available for such general topic indexes. Authors
not wanting thier lessons listed would not have to have them
listed.

---------- response 7
  11/23     01.00     avner       s

The "negative response" is simply a function of the
limited resources we have. Many individuals do in fact
maintain special subject-area indexes and communications
files as services to independent author groups in a
specific area. Since such a file is a private venture
(in the sense that it is not maintained by CERL) it must
come out of the resources of an individual. Generally
an individual with a strong committment in a subject area





has sufficient file space (from extended efforts in the
production of lessons in that area) that such is feasible.

---------- response 8
  11/24     12.34     lombardo       ed

But an individual with a strong committment in a subject
area trying to START in Plato is strongly penalized for
not having an affiliation with a benevolent department.
It does not really matter how good the person may be, or
how valuable his contribution might be.

---------- note 165 keys=other
  11/20     22.00     czwornog       mflu

I am sure this has been brought up before, but.....

Why can't there be a system defined key group for all
the keys that aren't included in the other groups.
This would include keys like punctuation,shifted-numeric,
space,etc.
Maybe something like: keys=other
or
keys=wierd
Or possibly allow the pause command to be written:
pause keys¬=funct
or
pause keys=all-(term,edit,stop)

Something like this doesn't seem like it would be too
difficult to implement.

---------- response 1
  11/21     11.37     b sherwood       s

The problem with "other" is that it would choke off
future improvements, since some keys which are
presently "other" might some day fall into some nice
classification.

---------- response 2
  11/21     14.45     czwornog       mflu

How about this:

keys=punct
and
keys=numeric1
and
keys=arith(metic operators)

---------- note 170 keys lost
  11/21     00.19     dave fuller       uimc

        Systems -- in view of the present plight of keys
being lost in great quantities, including "timing" keys,
as in disk I/O and jumpouts, are you interested in doc-





umentation about circumstaces that reliably produce
failures, or do you have a handle on the problem already?

Dave Fuller

---------- response 1
  11/21     08.52     avner       s

All documentation of reliable failures is appreciated.
Particularly appreciated is documentation which includes
examples which have been boiled down to the minimum code
necessary to cause the failure (this is far easier to
interpret and far more likely to get fast response than
an indication that "unit nrnd of lesson sqrawd loses keys".
Given the option of trying to dig the essential elements
out of existing code as opposed to trying to guess what
is going wrong, it is frequently more efficient for the
systems staff to do the latter. As you can well imagine,
the latter may be rather inefficient in absolute terms. It
is not a matter of not caring or not being interested but
rather a matter of trying to do the most good with minimal
resources).

---------- response 2
  11/21     15.42     dave fuller       uimc

       I kin dig it. Will see what can be done.

---------- note 171 hooray!
  11/21     00.35     curly       iu

  Marvelous.....the news that variable jumpouts are
back has made my week!.....Now i can do the same thing
with one block of common with less trouble than with
a two block leslist.

Yippee.

curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly

---------- response 1
  11/21     08.39     friedman       csa

Hooray....no more 3 warning messages from cslibrary's
"standard" blocks!

---------- response 2
  11/21     11.57     koning       csstaff

I am somewhat puzzled by the restriction mentioned that
variable jumpouts will not be permitted in published
lessons. After all, if variable jumpouts are used in the
manner that the cs lessons use them (to return to the
calling lesson independent of jumpouts occurring during
execution of the lesson) there is no reason to make this
restriction.





---------- response 3
  11/21     14.41     czwornog       mflu

Great...
  Thanks for putting this feature back....

Now how about the 1-argument -from- ?

---------- note 172 speech
  11/21     00.48     oppy       research

        The hardware research group has developed a speech
recognition system for use on PLATO. It is designed to
recognize individual words inputed through a headset
microphone. A demonstration of this system will be given on
Tuesday, December 2 at 3:00 pm in Room 351 of Cerl.

        The voice input hardware is attached to the terminal
ext jacks. Vocabularies are stored in common with each entry
utilizing 8 words. Vocabulary entries are formed by training
the system with actual utterences. A (non system) 'hear'
command has been developed that allows easy integration of
spoken responces into lesson material. This command allows
the specification of small subsets of a larger vocabulary
that are eligible for recognition in particular situations.

cont'd

---------- response 1
  11/21     00.51     oppy       research

        Unfortunately, due to the complexity of speech
recognition and the restrictions of PLATO's I/O structure
the recognition system has a number of serious limitations.

        The first is that the recognition software uses
a good deal of processing time. Tests indicate an average
of 11.5 ms of processing per eligible vocabulary entry.
This may lead to frequent 'automatic interupts' (autobreak-
ing) and will limit the number of simultaneous users of the
speech input system. The high CPU usage and the time needed
to transmit the keys generated results in a significant
delay between the uttering and the recognition of an
utterence.

cont'd

--------- response 2
  11/21     00.53     oppy       research

        An additional drawback is that the reliabilty of
proper recognition is somewhat low (although this is very
dependent on the size and nature of the vocabulary). For
a vocabulary consisting of the 10 digits,we obtained between





70: and 93: correct responce, depending on the speaker.
The use of one set of vocabulary enteries by many speakers
reduced the recognition reliability considerably indicating
the desireability of training a vocabulary for each user).

        Dispite these limitations, it is hoped that this
system can play a role in special purpose applications.
(such as allowing handicapped students to use PLATO or
using voice input when users need their hands for a related
task).

cont'd

---------- response 3
  11/21     00.57     oppy       research

        We are interested in receiving user reactions to
this system and in hearing from people who feel they have
applications for it. Comments, questions and requests for
futher demos should be directed to oppy of course research.

Jim Oppenheimer

---------- response 4
  11/21     12.03     shirer       s

"to input" is an irregular verb
with past tense and participle = "input"

i.e. "the data were input to the system"

but the best procedure is to avoid such uses
(including such abominations as "inputed, inputted" etc)
as much as possible.

Committee of Grammar Which Has Exceeded Epostulary Life
(COGWHEEL) D. Shirer, archivist.

(seriously...congratulations on your achievement!)

---------- response 5
  11/21     12.39     volpe       mfl

I'm waiting for someone to develope a system that can sense
odors (i.e., tell the difference between a rose and an
onion). What about it all you EE and CS jocks? Think about
that one for awhile.
tom volpe

---------- response 6
  11/21     14.12     holle       uimatha

Will more detailed information on how the
device works internally be available soon online?

And volpe...everybody nose your suggestion stinks!





---------- response 7
  11/21     17.40     gilpin       peer

Speech recognition is so difficult a problem that an
announcement of progress is of great interest. // If
the program learns from training, and performs with
different reliability for different speakers, does it
follow that using synthetic speech for input would
provide an upper bound on reliability? And that that
upper bound would approximate 100:? // A reliability of
70-93: is about what I seem to experience from the touch
panels I work with...

---------- response 8
  11/21     18.41     oppy       research

        More information on the internal workings of the
voice input device and the speech recognition system can
be found in PLATO's annual report for ARPA (Jan - Dec 1794).

        Synthesized speech may provide the upper bound for
recognition reliability but I doubt this bound approaches
100: since the input system can only extract a limited
amount of information from a speech signal. The speech
information lost would prevent perfect recognition even
if utterences were spoken in an ideal manner.

---------- response 9
  11/22     15.44     artman       uimatha

As a side question, could the speech input system be
used to particularly identify the speech of just one
person, comparing the input to a stored copy?

I am thinking of a "voice fingerprinted" password instead
of a "secretely typed" one. No, I'm not paranoid, but I
think it might curtail "incorrect" uses of signons.
I also see the 8 words/entry problem, and I'm sure there
are many others. I'm just asking if they're prohibitive.

thanks,

eric artman

---------- response 10
  11/22     22.09     oppy       research

        Since the voice input transmits a very limited
amount of information (about 250 bits to represent an
utterence that may contain 12000 bits of information),only

a rough approximation of a word is received. Too rough
an approxiation to allow for voice identification.





        I haven't received many responces discussing
possible immediate applications of this system. Any ideas??

---------- response 11
  11/24     07.49     maggs       law

What does your input gadget cost? I am very eager to
use anything that gets away from typed input.

---------- response 12
  11/26     11.59     warner       iu

        The IU Speech ¬+ Hearing clinic is showing some
interest in the gadget for treatment of speech disorders.
Is there enough sensitivity to distinguish between a
number of different formations of the same consonant
(as in labial and lingual ˇ↑≠¬≤f)?
        Also, I didn't know PLATO even existed in
Jan-Dec. 1794! Not to mention the NSF!

---------- note 176 Xsearch
  11/21     03.10     haefeli       block

        why can't an Xsearch (shift-NEXT) be made
on a string located on the first line of that page?

---------- response 1
  11/21     07.47     frankel       p

Suppose:

I say Xhello NEXT1 and am taken to the first occurance.
At the top of my screen, I see

write hello there, pal

I decide I want a different occurance, so I hit NEXT. Now,
do you want to see the top line again? I want to go on to
the next occurance.

---------- response 2
  11/21     08.43     friedman       csa

Holy cow, this thing works the way it ALWAYS has.↓
Why are people suddenly deciding this is a problem?

---------- response 3
  11/21     11.35     p cohen       med

        Now wait a second! I don't know if haefeli
meant this, but whole-lesson searches sometimes _do_
fail to find an occurrence if it is the first line
of a block! Is this a known problem, systems?
(Examples upon request!)

--paul





---------- response 4
  11/22     03.18     sellers       arizona

Just for my personal curiosity. One example please.
(consider this a request as per your offer)
Perhaps there is something going on here that is not
obvious in the notes?

---------- note 186 -notouch-
  11/21     11.40     jan       park

i wonder if plans are already being formulated to solve
one of the troublesome situations encountered by those
who take on the task of touch panal programming.

i'm referring to the absence of a "notouch" or "touchno"
command that would render a NO judgement when a specified
touch point was touched. as things are, one has to
always include a -judge no- following any -touch xyz-
command that the programmer wants to be judged no...

is someone planning to provide us with such a command
to solve the problem as was done to solve the same type
of situation that existed with concept? (miscon)

(or is there a better way?)

---------- response 1
  11/21     12.02     b sherwood       s

There are various things afoot, I think, now that touch
panels are getting prevalent. Thanks for the suggestion.

Let me take the opportunity to point out that in such
situations one should really use "judge wrong", not
"judge no". "judge wrong" sets the judgement to
"anticipated incorrect answer", whereas "judge no" merely
sets the judgement to "unanticipated incorrect answer".
The two judgements affect -area- summaries (and the
associated system variables) and datafile entries.

---------- response 2
  11/21     14.52     jim       faa

How about increasing the number of grid lines in the
touch panel? The way it is now, you can touch the
screen without getting a response due to the large
separation between grids.

---------- response 3
  11/21     14.58     stone       research

        the spacing of the grid lines is a function of
the touch panel hardware and therefore not likely to change
soon on a system wide scale. research is being done on





higher resolution touch panels. contact paul van arsdall
(jon of research) for more details.

maureen stone

---------- response 4
  11/21     15.24     larry north       p

The touchno is simple to implement and will be available
very soon.

---------- note 188 graph marg
  11/21     11.53     b sherwood       s

Just discovered that the -graph- command does not set
margins (unlike -locate- and -at-), with the result that
a character string with backspaces in it will not
get -graph-ed properly if the left margin happens to be
to the right of the graphing position.

Any objection to the -graph- command setting the left
margin?

---------- note 189 erase at
  11/21     11.57     b sherwood       s

Every so often someone points out the present inconsistency
in the -erase- command relative to "wherex,wherey".

at    1512
erase 20
show  where $$ the number 1512 appears at location 1532!

This sequence demonstrates that we are setting "where"
back to the preceding position (1512 in this case), yet
we are not informing the terminal of this position reset.
Any objection to sending the "at 1512" to the terminal
after the -erase- command? (This IS done if size¬=0.)

---------- response 1
  11/21     12.07     john r       reading

I'm in favor. Such a change would eliminate an -at-
from the following frequently used code.

at    1512
erase 10
at    1512
write a new line

---------- response 2
  11/21     12.35     cnb       faa

Yes, please change.

---------- response 3
  11/21     12.46     broadus       css





one more aye.

---------- response 4
  11/21     13.12     marty smith       mtc

all for it.

---------- response 5
  11/21     13.34     frye       mfl

Finally....

---------- response 6
  11/21     13.37     hinton       ssu

Aye.

---------- response 7
  11/21     14.16     berger       mfl

Would be awfully nice...

---------- response 8
  11/21     14.29     rader       s

I presume it is in effect an -atnm- to the current "where"
that you will send after the erase?

---------- response 9
  11/21     14.44     b sherwood       s

Yes, I guess you're right -- it would be an -atnm-,
not an -at-. Good point.

---------- response 10
  11/21     14.55     jim       faa

Hallelujah, there is still hope. One more aye vote.

---------- response 11
  11/21     15.40     dave fuller       uimc

Norman said it so eloquantly...

*******  11/21     13.37     hinton       ssu

Aye.

---------- response 12
  11/21     16.44     hinton       ssu





Gee whiz, Dave...

ndh

---------- response 13
  11/21     18.10     jones       mcl

thanks (as one of the complainers about this inconsistancy)

---------- response 14
  11/22     03.23     sellers       arizona

My as well join the crowd:

********  11/21     15.40     dave fuller       uimc

Norman said it so eloquantly...

*******  11/21     13.37     hinton       ssu

Aye.
********

---------- response 15
  11/22     10.01     nate       iumusic

and let's not forget us down here at Indiana University.
   one more DEFINATE aye!!

********  11/22     03.23     sellers       arizona

My as well join the crowd:

********  11/21     15.40     dave fuller       uimc

Norman said it so eloquantly...

*******  11/21     13.37     hinton       ssu

Aye.
********
********

---------- response 16
  11/22     19.56     hinton       ssu

Gee whiz, EVERYBODY !!!
ndh

---------- response 17
  11/29     14.36     fritz       ames





  Hmmm... I wonder if such... ummm... input(?) is subject
to the same "join sequence" restrictions as TUTOR?

---------- note 207 deleted
  11/21     14.22     durkin       siu

Why oh why is it that I can never stay in my lesson
for more than 1 minute before I get kicked out?
I realize that at 2:00 p.m. it is prime time, but it
only uses 2400 words of ecs, and on the ecs use page
I see students using 9000 words!!
-groan-, -sigh-, will this deletion never cease?!?

disheartened

---------- response 1
  11/21     15.29     fay       o

From the tone of your note, I gather you already know
roughly how the system selects who to bump off and who will
stay. So, all I can say in response is that you either

a) have to get a student record with which to execute
   lessons if you want "guaranteed" ecs, or
b) wait til the day when > 1500 words of ecs can be
   promised per terminal.

I'm inclined to say that in the latter case the proverbial
snowball in a very hot place stands a better chance.

---------- note 216 long notes
  11/21     15.06     warner       iu

        A short question about this notefile:
Does each note require a space of fixed length in the
storage space, or does it only require the number of words
in the note plus some overhead?
        I am wondering if the kind of replies seen two
notes back, mostly saying "Aye" or "Yes" with no further
wording, take up as much space as a note with its text
filled up.

---------- response 1
  11/21     15.08     woolley       p

A note only takes up as much space as it needs + a few
words for the header.

---------- response 2
  11/22     03.29     sellers       arizona

There is external evidence of this if you go into edit
a general note that has been long enough for the extra
space to be recycled. You will not have the full 100 words,
but will only have the length of the pre-edit version of the
note available to you.





---------- note 222 lineset
  11/21     15.57     steinberg       mathw

When you inspect lineset characters by pressing -LAB-, you
should be able to rotate them.

---------- note 229 c ¬= *
  11/21     21.53     zweig       iu

Why does aids say the "c" at the front of a line is the
same as "*" at the front of a line in the editor?
        The aren't...

This gave me a condense error:
c= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

While this did NOT:
*= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
[The above were used to divide sections of a unit]
Dan

---------- response 1
  11/21     22.05     warner       iu

A comment line starting with c must have _only_ c in the
command field. Otherwise there would be bloody marrow
to pay when the condensor hit commands like _c_alc, or _c_har,
or _c_ourse. However, no command begins with *. So anything
that begins with * is a comment, both command and tag.

---------- response 2
  11/21     22.43     kent       arizona

Actually, you may put other characters in the command field
following 'c', but the second character of the line must be
a blank space.
Try;

c = = = = = = = = = = = =

Jonathan Kent

---------- response 3
  11/21     23.33     zweig       studio

Back to you, Silas....
        What about *list...how are those "detected"?

---------- response 4
  11/21     23.37     berger       mfl

They don't condense... the print program looks especially
for *list commands.

---------- response 5





  11/22     16.34     tenczar       s

by the way...a $ sign in the first character position also
denotes a comment line

---------- response 6
  11/22     22.43     buchin       iu

only "$"??

i thought it was "$$"....

red bush

---------- response 7
  11/23     00.49     avner       s

That is in the tag field (but it won't hurt in the command
field as well).

---------- note 232 note save
  11/21     22.53     woolley       p

The Save option in notes has been changed to be much more
flexible. You no longer need to go directly to the editor
after saving a note -- you may go on reading notes, and
put the note in your lesson (or in another note) when
you're done.

---------- response 1
  11/22     03.34     sellers       arizona

I noticed that tonight when I went to save a note from
general notes which I thought I had lost. The facility
warned me that I already had some information in the save
buffer and it gave me the option of changeing my mind about
the current save.

Very nice!!

---------- response 2
  11/22     09.39     levy       mcl

Pretty neat addition. Thanks

---------- response 3
  11/23     17.38     whisenhunt       siu

Could there be any way to append more than one note?

Gary Whisenhunt

---------- response 4
  11/24     21.50     k mast       p





Afraid not. It requires everyone carrying around too much
storage.

---------- note 243 new feat?
  11/22     12.30     warrens       uw

A suggestion for the lineset editor:

I see it could be implemented in one of two ways...
*** The problem...I don't see how one can translate _and_
rotate a part (0 to 100:) of a linechar
while creating it.

         (1) In the editor, be able to specify which part
             of the lchar that you want at another angle
             from a specific base or focal point. Also,
             be able to translate this segment to a differ-
             ent point at a specific angle of rotation.

*** This is the suggestion that I prefer since I see more
    versatility in its use.******
        (2) The creation in the editor of a very temporary
             buffer character space. This is to be used
             only as a "drawing board" of segments of lchars.
              a) Can edit as in the usual way, and the
------continued in resp.----

---------- response 1
  11/22     12.40     warrens       uw

-----cont.-----
               the results may be transmitted (at a
               specified angle) to one or more lchars.
              b)Also, either a whole lchar (or a part?)
                of one already created may be loaded into
                this temporary space and transformed in some
                way... then distributed to any or all lchars.
             c) *examples-- a good example is the -*-, or
                something to be created in its family. You
                want to design something that is a rotated
                copy of one unit (though more complicated
                then the -*-.)
                *another one might be, say you want to make
                a crown with the same "stone" on all five
                points of it, well first make the stone
                and store it in lchar-1. make the base of
                crown in lchar-2. Put the stone in buffer,
--cont.-

---------- response 2
  11/22     12.50     warrens       uw

---cont.--
                from the buffer designate which lchar it is
                to go in and then place it at the correct
                positions on the crown's points.
                *Also, it would help if the lchars are very
                similar but only minor differences. One





             could construct the basic feature and then
             the variances separately and have control
             over where it is placed on the new lchar,
              and in more then one place and/or rotation.

Any cooments....maybe this can already be done, but I
haven't found it. Also, I think that most of these things
are close to existing (though for other functions.) already
in the editor( you can copy lchars from one place to another
etc.)!
Thanks for any comments.... Randy
P.S. I know that you could do all this by placing each piece
and do it all by separate plots.

---------- response 3
  11/22     15.09     jones       mcl

good idea, I have had this problem myself

  -in the large grid display, I needed to move the
   origin because the character had to be able to
   overplot another character already finished.

however, I am not convinced that rotation is as easy
as is indicated. I suspect that unless rotation is
limited to the making of reflections and rotations
about the two axes, the results would be crummy.

1 vote (if this is a democracy) for being able to
at least insert from one linechar to some place in another
without destroying what is already in the other.

---------- response 4
  11/26     20.20     fortner       p

The option to translate or rotate a specific linechar
is on the 'for a rainy day' jobboard...

---------- note 260 outime
  11/22     17.14     bowery       comm

  For applications in which a precise prediction of output
time is needed it can be demonstrated that the high
level manipulations of output in TUTOR are quite
indeterminant in time and content and therefore ineffective.

  A solution to this problem would be to make the -codeout-
command offer functions of the terminal beyond the
uncover code and special function chars.

ie:
codeout ldm,full $$ LDM with full screen erase
codeout ldm,dot,write,full
*sec/60 LDM setting to dot ¬+ write mode and erasing screen
codeout lde $$ LDE echoing a key that can break a pause
codeout ldy,exp $$ LDC to terminal y register‎exp
codeout exp $$ sends out a data word containing exp

The system could keep tabs on the state of the terminal





and mimumize the possibility of abuse.

---------- response 1
  11/23     23.02     stone       research

define 'precise prediciton of output time'. do you mean
when it gets to the terminal? the only way to do that
(as has been done over at psych) is to put a harware
patch on the terminal and monitor a few control lines.
maureen

---------- note 261 science
  11/22     17.49     b sherwood       s

You might enjoy reading an article to be submitted to
Science magazine by Stan Smith and me. It is in file
"sarticle", with no inspect code.

---------- response 1
  11/22     17.52     hody       med

      ** here's hoping for prompt acceptance **

---------- response 2
  11/22     19.45     golden       s

Watch out, Bruce, _Science_ only accepts unpublished articles.

You may have given the game away, just minutes after finish-
ing all that work. I won't tell.

---------- response 3
  11/23     22.21     carter       comm

The article is a good one in most respects and I hope it
is accepted. The main criticism which the Science
reviewers might take issue with is the "failure" to
make it explicitly clear how PLATO relates to other
work in the field. With a general summary article like
this one, such a possible criticism really misses the
mark since a review of the literature in addition to
a description of PLATO is too long for a Science article.
I hope the lack of reference to related work doesn't
cause this paper any political problems. While PLATO's
contribution to the state-of-the-art may not be clear
to the average Science reader, it should certainly be
clear to those involved in interactive computer systems.

---------- response 4
  11/23     23.00     carter       comm

Incidently, this set of notes is an excellent example of
the primitive state of development of PLATO's potential
as a communications medium. The last time I was intensely
involved with conferencing on plato, datasets were not
available for general use. Their current availability makes





it possible for the smith-sherwood article (text and
graphics) to be stored in a dataset along with reader
comments keyed (threaded) to the text. Rather than
saying 'Bruce, I think you should rephrase the ambigiouity
in line 5, block Q, part 10', the conferencing program
would take care of the text flagging and access to the
reader comment. Also, it would be just as easy to make
reference to a graph or line drawing. Non-plato authors
could use such a system. Commenting on papers is only
one of many applications for conferencing facilities.

---------- response 5
  11/23     23.24     carter       comm

Well, I could go on for ever on this topic, but I think I
will cut it short. I just wanted to emphasize that there
are many exciting possibilities beyond 'talk' and 'notes'.
Someday graduate students may use plato to participate
in current scientific debates or perhaps "meet" with a
geographically dispersed prelim committee. Stan and
Bruce might submit their paper to Science with merely
a -SHIFT- -NEXT-, and receive the referee's comments
a few days later. I'm sorry I don't have all of this
working yet. The large demands such conferencing
facilities would place on ecs suggests that a
system-level effort would be required to make such
activities truly viable.

---------- note 273 line-arcs
  11/23     00.42     elston       rhrc

In experimenting with linesets it becomes apparent that
lines are not always enough to represent certain figures
that would greatly benefit from sizing and rotation.
Circles and arcs are also necessary for some chars. Would
it be possible to add these as options. I realize that the
driving machinery may not allow this. Perhaps with the
advent of an -rcircle- command the code would be possible.

I know that the various figures that I need may be done with
the use of "rcircle" units and such, but it would be much
more useful if they could be done in linesets.

Any possibility?

2c≤/

---------- response 1
  11/23     01.30     fortner       p

There is no possibility of such a thing ever being put
into linesets. However, I believe something exactly what
you want is in the works....

---------- response 2
  11/23     18.48     rich       cs196

   Why can't it be done in linesets and what is in





the works?

---------- note 276 chess4p2
  11/23     01.16     lekas       cs196

      When will chess4p2 be available?

---------- response 1
  11/23     13.03     white       p

Maybe before Christmas, maybe before summer, maybe never.

Chess4p2 is NOT supported by the software staff, and
is merely tolerated at times.

---------- note 280 data pages
  11/23     13.12     tebby       pso

Will Account Directors please insist that authors fill out
the DATA pages of their lessons, datafiles, and datasets,
PLEASE!!!! The "cataloging" department wastes hours tracking
down the unwritten information.

Tebby Lyman

---------- response 1
  11/23     15.45     midden       p

Perhaps the new "fill out the data page" page for new
lessons will encourage more complete data pages.
(I hope so!)
M. Midden

---------- response 2
  11/23     17.34     michael       english

It'd help if the account director could see the data pages
in order to identify incompletely described files.....

---------- response 3
  11/24     08.53     avner       s

Remember that in addition to providing information to the
cataloging staff (for description of your materials to
outsiders or interested PLATO people), the DATA display
also allows the system staff to contact you in emergency
situations (as when some failure has wiped out a portion
of a file and there is an option to replace it with a
back-up copy or warn you in time to repair it by hand).
Most can ultimately be tracked down but one tends to
assume that the ones with "cute" content or usage
descriptions and an indication that "the phantom" is the
responsible individual are not serious and can be left
until time is available from more important things.





---------- response 4
  11/24     10.33     gilpin       peer

Certainly Tebby and her helpers should not have to bear
the costs of incomplete data pages. Perhaps the catalogers
should be given the power to change all the codes on a
lesson to some special code that will prevent anyone from
changing, inspecting, etc until the special code is cleared.
This would both turn up the owners of such lessons and also
distribute the costs of the original carelessness more
appropriately.

---------- response 5
  11/24     14.20     little buddy       matha

what would be desirable is to set up a template
within the accounts lesson to be used for the data page
of new lessons . . . .

LB

---------- note 281 Library
  11/23     13.49     stephanidis       iumed

How come it thereis no information in the library

on Plato any more.......It puzzles me

---------- response 1
  11/23     14.33     tebby       pso

What library?

---------- response 2
  11/23     14.56     stephanidis       iumed

In the IU main Library there is an Plato index card

with no information in it...apparently someone has taken

all the information out of it......I was just courious

to see what would be written on the system, unless there

is another way of finding out such information....

---------- response 3
  11/23     18.53     curly       iu

    You might try asking someone at our site before
writing a note in here about things like that.
curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˆ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˇcurly

---------- response 4
  11/24     12.29     warner       iu





Actually, the library media center is supposed to have a few
introtutor manuals, the Educational Materials Center has a
set of instructional manuals, and there are some general
manuals in Silas Warner's office.

---------- note 286 continued
  11/23     15.58     sellers       arizona

The pnote facility is an excellent facility, but I find it
very hard to send a continued note in my note file as a
continued note.

e.g.
1) Find the first part of note to be sent
2) data1 to get the send note option
3) type in name of person to whom the note is to be sent
4) lab to edit the note
5) lab1 to send this part as a continued note
6) back to get note editor in insert mode
7) back to get out of insert mode
8) back1 to not send this section of the note
9) next to see the second part of the note you want to send
10)data1 to get the send note option again
11)type in the person's name again
12)next1 to send the second part of the note. (gasp)

Priority: 7 on a scale of 100 where 100 is top priority.

---------- response 1
  11/23     18.21     blomme       s

  Conciseness in notes is a blessing to all.

---------- note 298 restored?
  11/24     00.53     mckeown       com

Just discovered an interesting 'restoration' feature in
course records: I entered course records (with correct
change code), added some students, returned to main
choice page, pressed shift-data by accident and was asked
to enter my course change code, entered code, returned to
main choice page to find that the students i had added were
not included in the count (they were in the count before
I pressed data1). It appears that the entry of the correct
change code caused a read of the course directory from
disk--destroying my copy of the directory.↓
This is repeatable, 'works' with delete, and from either
addition page (roster or directly from main choice page).

---------- response 1
  11/24     12.29     b sherwood       s

Thanks for pointing this out.

---------- note 301 conderror
  11/24     09.06     whisenhunt       siu





Error in the condense error display:

Press -BACK- from the display without entering a
number and it takes you to the block last edited
not the block listing display.

Gary W

---------- response 1
  11/24     21.24     midden       p

I need more information. This can't happen. Repeatable?

---------- response 2
  11/25     10.37     whisenhunt       siu

It was repeatable.. several times... I think it
might just be the block that I was in last. But
BACK still should take you to the block listing.
 went through a different block and then condensed
again. And it took me to the block I was in last.

Gary w

---------- note 303 subject?
  11/24     10.54     bartlett       propman

I have been curious for some time as to what all the new
course names stand for i.e. what type of course is it and
what kind of programs are they writing, subject area
mostly. Would it be an invasion of the course's privacy
and rights to have some kind of list that tells what
each course is and the subject area it pertains to?

---------- response 1
  11/24     15.53      bruce iehl       mtc

Well, the word course is not too accurate in this case,
as most should be thought of merely as rosters. But
your suggestion of this type of a list of current activities
is a good one, if you can figure out some incentive to cause
the many varied organizations that use Plato to contribute
meaningful information. (besides getting someone to create
and maintain it)

---------- response 2
  11/24     16.10     tebby       pso

Since there are almost 900 courses and many "courses" are
simply groups of people in which each might be doing some-
thing different and since such information is not static,
it would be too time-consuming to compile such a list.
Watching "catalog" and "topics" should keep you pretty well
informed as to what work is going on on the system.

Tebby Lyman





---------- response 3
  11/24     18.55     bartlett       propman

what I mean Tebby is not a catalog of lessons, but a
catalog of which people work in what area, such as who
works on cs lessons besides the obvious cs196,cs etc.
If authors who are writing lessons knew of courses in
different areas of the country who are writing lessons
in the same area or who have access to plato for the use
of lessons of a certain type it would make it a lot easier.
What I want is a guide to all those abbreviations that
all those courses out there are called. I.e. mfl,mflu,ctco,
nuc,etc. This is what I find confusing, what do all
those letters mean?
Not a long explanation of the course just a short 3 or 4
word name that is made up of plain English words!
(I know what these particular letters mean but there are
lots I dont know)

---------- response 4
  11/24     19.00     john r       reading

Read Tebby's note carefully. She answers your question
exactly by pointing out that the course a person is in
bears no necessary (or even probable) relation to what
he/she is working on.

--------- response 5
  11/24     23.27     rich       cs196

      True, I don't work on cs lessons at all!!!

---------- note 304 course res
  11/24     11.05     kaufman       uimc

I put 6 courses into the permanent course restriction
list(including course uimc). I backed out of lesson site.
I returned to the site restriction list and found no courses
listed. I then re-added course uimc. I backed out to the
index page and then again into the list. Now all 6 courses
were listed. Course uimc, which was orginally first, was
now last. I then backed out of the lesson.

Finally, I returned to the list and found only course
uimc listed.

Tebby Lyman was monitoring me when I readded course
uimc.

Is God playing dice with the universe?

       Joe Kaufman

---------- response 1
  11/24     12.25     berger       mfl





For one of your problems:

courses are now alphabetized automatically on that
list when you backed out, thus it is reasonable
that course uimc was listed last.

Good luck with the rest of your problems!

---------- response 2
  11/24     12.33     b sherwood       s

Sure sounds mysterious. Any chance you might have changed
permanent set. then looked at temporary set? You didn't
shift-stop out?

---------- response 3
  11/24     14.19     kaufman       uimc

There is no temporary set of lessons for this site. At
one point, I mistakenly selected the temporary lesson
option, but I did not go to the part where you add
courses to the temporary list.

I do not think I shift-stopped out. But, in any event,
that would not explain how after I put 6 courses into
the list, on the next entry there were no courses but
on the third entry all the courses were there.(i did
this with Tebby monitoring me.)

More strange things. Since I was having so much trouble,
I deleted the list. Unfortunately, I am still plagued
by the list appearing sometimes and sometimes not. This
problem is repeatable.

---------- response 4
  11/24     15.44     tebby       pso

Yes..I saw it happen!
        TL

---------- note 311 pnotes
  11/24     13.49     errol       kka

I was sending a note to various people. For one person
I got the message that she was gone and to forward the
note to another person. I put in the name and course
of that person and then pressed the key which would
allow me to edit the note. When I did this I got into
a note that had been sent to this person by someone else,
not my original note.

---------- response 1
  11/24     15.33     k mast       p

answered via pnote.

---------- note 314 management





  11/24     14.25     tenczar        s

the following recent paper may interest you:

Hardware and Software Considerations in Computer Based
Course Management

by...Stephen M. Alessi, Thomas H. Andersen, and
W. Barry Biddle

University of Illinois Laboratory for Cognitive Studies in
Education...Technical Report No.4...Nov. 1975

ABSTRACT: A computer based course management system
(CAISMS II) was designed to integrate books, computers, and
live teachers in an effective manner. The system is
intended for courses with large numbers of students and
instructors such as introductory courses in community
college, university, or military settings. We here describe
the course management system and its hardware/software
organization as it was developed and implemented on the
PLATO IV computer based instructional system at the U of I.

---------- response 1
  11/24     14.38     hinton       ssu

This paper is not listed in AIDS (I assume since it is not
a CERL publication): could you give price, etc. ?

---------- response 2
  11/24     23.05     alessi     edpsy

        No cost (till we run out), just send your name
and address to:

               University of Illinois
     Laboratory for Cognitive Studies in Education
               236 Education Building
               Urbana, Illinois 61801

---------- note 322 syserror
  11/24     21.03     levinson       cerl

I just experienced a system error, while backing myself
out of another terminal. i signed in another terminal
and the got usual message "records being used at so and
so site. press help1 to kick the other person off."
i pressed help1 and got the message " can not back out
records due to a system error."

---------- response 1
  11/24     23.10     k mast       p

Thanks. Please let us know if it happens again.

---------- response 2





  11/24     23.30     rich       cs196

        This has happened to me several times at
165b CERL when the site controller(I assume) was
not working right...

---------- response 3
  11/25     08.58     berger       mfl

Bad assumption to make. That is not the most likely
cause when this happens.

---------- note 324 archaic
  11/24     21.39     stevens       med

I think that it is unfair to be caught in a long range
tractor beam when one uses a strategy of staying near
a star base to stay alive, especially in the master
category. There is, for all intent and purposes, no way
to arrive at your new destination with any hope of
surviving an attack, especially with the controls
available. Specifically, I am referring to the
impossibility of lowering shields and firing
phasers in one move, or even photon torpedos, before
enough damage is done to make such strategy worthless.
Indeed, had the real Enterprise had such outdated
controls, Engineer Scott would have developed more
modern ones, or the ship would never have lasted
more than one television season.

---------- response 1
  11/24     21.55     k gorey       research

   Mr. Stevens,

   In view of the high price of food, might you not save
everyone a lot of trouble, and offer yourself up as a
Thanksgiving dinner?

---------- response 2
  11/24     21.55     alan       reading

Stevens is right. Can't something be done about this?

---------- response 3
  11/24     23.58     creager       cs317

  If you look in trek notes, you will see there are plans
for a command that will drop shields, fire phasers, and
raise shields again. Three cheers for progress!!!

---------- response 4
  11/25     00.02     hanoka       ed





          Mr. Stevens, why dont you go write notes in
          Health Notes. I'm sure Doc Hody will love to
          read about your quests in star trek!
          Dont ever write anything of this nature
          in hear again ( i dont know how many times this
          has to be said ) because of the permanency of
          this notes file.

---------- response 5
  11/25     08.30     marty smith       mtc

i can't stop this uncontrollable laughing. . .

just think, one day when i'm old and gray, i'll go
through this fit again after reading the original
note.

a supreme sacrifice for the MFL tag team?

---------- response 6
  11/25     09.01     berger       mfl

Mr. Hanoka: 

Remember the (illiterate) advice you just gave to the
med gentleman. Think of it every time you write a
note in here... (remember this? "the idea of a one
block charset is not feasible...")

---------- response 7
  11/25     09.14     jim g       reading

Oh fudge, Berger, you are getting sour in your old age.
Since it is close to Thanksgiving, let us all give thanks
for people like hanoka and stevens who let us have a little
humor while reading notes. The fact that hanoka writes
unfounded, illiterate notes and stevens is lost in space
is something to be thankful for on a gray day in CU.

---------- response 8
  11/25     10.01     guerra       uimc

Mr. Hanoka:
   Thanks for the plug.

        Now all you need is a drain.

---------- response 9
  11/25     12.06     hanoka       ed

         Get down!! Well deserved.





Happy Thanksgiving!

mike

---------- response 10
  11/25     18.46     hody       med

if stevens were as expert at TUTOR as he appears to be
at "trek" perhaps we would have more high quality programs
in his specialty area.

---------- note 328 Friday
  11/24     22.15     rader       s

Preventive Maintenance will be done Friday between 8 am
and 10 am.

---------- note 331 antiques
  11/24     23.18     david       hebrew

Now that linesets have come into being, there is clearly
no further use for lessons "linechar" and "olinechar".

I intend to delete them within the next few days, and
put the space to new and "exciting" uses.

So, if you are using one of these relics, and have some
editing to do on them, you had best do it real soon,
or follow the "in crowd" and create a lineset for yourself.

---------- response 1
  11/25     08.39     judy       pso

Thank you, David, for all the work you did in developing
that first stage of lineset.

---------- response 2
  11/29     14.52     fritz       ames

Yes indeed. JDE deserves a LOT of credit for originating
this fine facility.

---------- note 337 how many?
  11/25     00.12     john r       reading

Idle curiosity:

How many lessons must be condensed before PLATO is fully
up and operational as an authoring tool?

---------- response 1
  11/25     07.46     frankel       p







I believe there are 6, but students often creep in with
a higher priority and the authors have to wait for them.

That number doesn't include notes, records (2 lessons, I
believe), pnotes, data, etc.

---------- note 345 gothic
  11/25     10.32     jones       mcl

Over the past 2 years I have recieved a few requests for
information on how to use the gothic charset in lesson
charsett. Now, with the introduction of linesets, I have
decided that it might be worth a lesson.

Lesson -gothic- now contains information on how to use
both the lineset and charset, both for regular letters and
illuminated capitals, as well as an assortment of examples
of both.

I have made improvements to the gothic charset, and the
new improved version is also in lesson gothic with the
lineset. The improvements include an aditional capital
as well as cleaning up some inconsistancies in the charsett
version that were pointed out over the last 2 years.

douglas jones.

---------- response 1
  11/25     18.46     dave fuller       uimc

        Very nice, indeed. Thank you for cleaning up and
embellishing my previous work with the gothic lineset, which
was essentially a tool for the debugging of linesets. Now
I don't have to worry about trying to fix up caps and such.

---------- note 347 error page
  11/25     10.53     bargen       conn

interesting situation:

enter lesson as a student, where you generate an
        execution error

on error page, press HELP for more information 

on help page, press LAB1 to re-enter lesson

back in lesson, this time perform a -jumpout return-
        and find yourself in AIDS

where you press NEXT1 to _inspect_ your code--even
        if your security codes the lesson change code

while we're on the subject, do you suppose LAB1 could
function on the error page as it does from its help page?





(p.s.: to whom should i have sent a pnote re this?)

---------- response 1
  11/25     13.20     jim       pso

when you press HELP from the execution error display, you
get into part of AIDS --- a -jumpout return- in your
lesson returns you to the lesson you can from (AIDS exec
error lesson). in the i.e.u. of the AIDS exec error lesson,
i look to see if you're from AIDS --- and since you're
not, you goto the beginning of AIDS. the initial HELP key
does not send you to the beginning of AIDS because you are
coming from the exec error display. hope that helps-----

        i don't see a way to get around it. students never
see the exec error display ¬+ you should never be surprised
where a -jumpout return- takes you.

    ghesquiere

---------- response 2
  11/26     05.00     midden       p

Well, I was getting strange reports of strange happenings
in regard to execution errorts. This is most certainly
not a predictable event. For now if you want to fool around
with this, and wish to be in change mode, just make sure
n118 is set to -1.

Also just for the record--(nice to leave this in a response)
Inspect mode is now being kept on returns form aids,
charset editing, lineset editing, vocabediting, and perhaps
others. What did I forget to do...
        Marshall Midden

---------- response 3
  12/01     20.24     midden       p

AHA! fixed!
         M4

---------- note 349 answerv
  11/25     12.31     mcneil a       uicc

Will we ever get -answerv-?? (equivilent to exactv but with
spelling, etc checks?) This is the one feature that I
feel TUTOR really needs.

        If you can't think of a way to do it, how about
a command something like compute that would condense the
answer.

        AL9000

---------- response 1





  11/26     12.24     tenczar       s

thanks for your request...this request has also been made
by the foreign language lab...we will shortly have a list
of everyone's request for public view...with our comments
as to the desirability of these features and the probability
that they will be implemented on PLATO IV.

---------- note 351 linesdata1
  11/25     13.26     s zweig       iumed

Are there plans for linesets to be added to the routines
reached by DATA1 from the author page? Would this be of
any use?
tanx lodes
sz

---------- response 1
  11/25     18.33     fortner       p

err.. 'l' is already used... sigh..

---------- response 2
  11/26     10.29     michael       english

The meaning of "L" is so obscure that the letter ought to
be given to the lineset feature. Let the CPU limit feature
hunt for an obliging letter.

---------- response 3
  11/26     12.24     tenczar       s

I agree with Mr. Michael of English

---------- response 4
  11/26     22.30     judy       cornell

one more vote!!

judy jeska

---------- note 352 pictures
  11/25     13.44     judy       pso

I have been gathering pictures from character sets and
organizing them into (hopefully) logical groups of
pictures. There are hundreds of cute pictures available.

Look at "pictures2" (student mode).

---------- response 1
  11/25     14.46     david       hebrew

Any lesser mortal would have been driven bonkers by





the amount of work which clearly has gone into this lesson.

Thanks very much, Judy--it's very impressive and
useful besides.

---------- response 2
  11/26     09.09     judy       pso

Have you seen me bonking lately? Stop by!

If you have any corrections/additions to "pictures2",
please send me a p-note. (And thanks for the ones I've
already gotten!)

---------- note 353 touchno?
  11/25     14.34     larry north       p

It has been pointed out that the name touchno is misleading
since the command actually does a judge wrong and not a
judge no. So if you can think of a more descriptive command
name, please respond here.

---------- response 1
  11/25     14.45     golden       s

I propose -wtouch-....it is time TUTOR got over its fear
of prefixes.

---------- response 2
  11/25     15.47     hody       med

how about just

-ouch-

???

---------- response 3
  11/25     16.38     ahasic       med

how about:

hndsoff
or 
handsof

---------- response 4
  11/25     18.57     dave fuller       uimc

        I don't see any "fear" of prefixes, only that a
language that is half prefix and half suffix oriented would
look schizophrenic.






---------- response 5
  11/26     00.06     tenczar       s

I guess I am the one with the big hang-up agaist using
prefixes to form a new but similar command to one already
existing. My basic premise is...that there are several
hundred TUTOR commands. We should try to keep commands that
are highly similar similar in name. This is _NOT_ done by
adding prefixes. If someone knows of the -touch- command...
they will probably immediately know what a -touchno- command
does. And they can probably get info about related commands
in AIDS...if the names start alike.
Think of "write/writec" and "answer/answerc"...the basic
idea is that they do writing and answer judging and that
the "c" at the end is an addition to the main features of
these commands. To me, the first part of a command name
holds most importance and should. The minor additions
should be just that...and at the end.

---------- response 6
  11/26     09.11     judy       pso

I don't think we should discriminate against our Polish
friends.....
          What's wrong with -touchw- or -touchwr- ?

---------- response 7
  11/26     12.23     darlene       pso

I second Judy.
Either -touchw- or touchwr- would be fine.
("ouch" aint bad either)

---------- response 8
  11/26     22.23     judy       cornell

-ouch- has my vote
   In the tradition of -color orange-!!!

            judy jeska

---------- response 9
  11/27     13.13     mike b       cornell

        -ouch- has the advantage of being pronounceable--I'd
hate to have to try to pronounce -touchw- or -touchwr-, or
even -wtouch-. Whatever happened to that major benefit of
high-level languages--pronounceable command names?

      Sigh....

M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB

---------- response 10





  11/28     00.02     hody       med

-ouch- was proposed rather lightly... but in the spirit
of adding an international flavor to plato, how about:

-touchie-

for our israeli friends?

---------- response 11
  11/29     14.57     fritz       ames

Ummm...

-touche¬e-?

Oh, I should hate myself for that...

---------- note 356 concpt (n)
  11/25     15.33     dave       infe

        It would be quite convenient for students to be able
to intersperse constants (numbers ¬+ maybe string constants)
in responses to be judged by -concept-. For instance:
given
  vocabs words, <of,and,is,the>
         (operation,sum=1,difference=2,...)

   ¬6 sum of 4 and 56.6 is 60.6
would be matched by

  concept operation (v2) (v3) (v4), n1‎operation

putting 1 into n1, 4 into v2, 56.6 into v3, and so on.

   Thanks.

       Dave

---------- response 1
  11/26     09.13     judy       pso

-storen-?

---------- response 2
  11/26     10.41     dave       infe

        By no means.
        -store- abolishes any information about position
of numbers within the string.

---------- response 3
  11/26     10.47     dave       infe1





Thus,

¬6 the sum of 15 and 20 is 35

would be indistinguishable from

¬6 15 is the sum of 20 and 35

---------- response 4
  11/26     11.16     michael       english

Not true.

The first -storen- sucks out the first number in the input
string, the second -storen- grabs the second number, etc.

---------- response 5
  11/26     12.34     tenczar       s

it is intended to soon implement the main suggestion...
it would look something like...

concept birth rate of country in ¬0sn,n2¬1 , n3‎country

(we would use the embed signs, of course...and "sn" (or
some such) would mean "store numerical")

It is also intended to implement this and the "=" stuff in
answer commands also!
(say, have you been peeking into my brain!)

---------- note 358 trivia
  11/25     16.00     boas       unidel

        Although new to PLATO here at the University of
Delaware, I have not been able to find anyone who can tell
me how, why or what PLATO represents or stands for.
        It seems that all systems must get there name
from something or someone...right?? Can anyone add to
the confusion or clarification?
E↑ˇB

---------- response 1
  11/25     16.03     ken       conn

Well, I'll try.....

PLATO=_P_rogrammed _L_ogic for _A_utomatic _T_eaching
_O_perations

Ok?

---------- response 2





  11/25     16.28     iezek       ames

I always thought it was Programmed Logic for _Automated_
Teaching Operations.....

                 Mark Iezek

---------- response 3
  11/25     16.30     woolley       p

who cares...?

---------- response 4
  11/25     16.46     celia       pso

My vote goes to _P_reposterous _L_essons _A_nd _T_utor _O_bliquities.

---------- response 5
  11/25     16.59     steve       cornell

    Now...what does TUTOR stand for? Any suggestions?

       Steve Lionel

---------- response 6
  11/25     17.29     s zweig       iumed

_T_errificly _U_nderstanding _T_emples _O_f _R_esearch

sz

---------- response 7
  11/25     17.52     tebby       pso

If you are new to the system your course director probably
has copies of the small brown brochures on PLATO which tell
about the system. Inside the front cover of the one entitled
PLATO, you will find the words from which the acronym is
made. The "A" stands for "Automatic".
                 Tebby Lyman

---------- response 8
  11/25     18.05     iezek       ames

I stand corrected....
        Couldn't this be put in an appropriate place in
AIDS, just to satisfy the curiosity of people like this...?
Should only take a couple of minutes and I do think that
I've seen notes like this here before..
     M. Iezek

---------- response 9
  11/25     18.58     john r       reading





I once heard a rumor that PLATO originally stood for
Plato, and that only after many demands was a metaacronym
devised.

If the story is true, I wish whoever gave in had had more
strength.

---------- response 10
  11/25     18.59     dave fuller       uimc

        Down with acronyms. The idea of Platonic teaching
is the real meaning behind it.

---------- response 11
  11/25     19.46     rich       cs196

         And we authors are the TUTORs?

---------- response 12
  11/26     09.16     judy       pso

TUTOR is not an acronym, and I believe the idea was indeed
that authors are "tutor"s.

I think that the name PLATO was chosen for the Platonic
mode of instruction and the acronym made up at the same
time.

---------- response 13
  11/26     09.23     golden       s

The name PLATO was chosen first...of course.... I think it
is best to forget everything else. PLATO is the name!
I always refuse to decode it.

TUTOR is not an acronym...thank goodness!

---------- response 14
  11/26     14.09     errol       kka

According to the information booklets on the PLATO
system put out by CERL, PLATO stands for:
Programmed Logic for Automatic Teaching Operation

There should be no "s" on "Operation."

---------- response 15
  11/26     16.55     yen       uicc

        To add to the absurdities...

        A historical note ... during the early years
of PLATO there was another CBE project at UI called
SOCRATES. There seemed to be something Greek in all the





early doings there.....

---------- response 16
  11/26     19.31     blomme       s

S(ystem) (for) O(rganizing) C(ontent) (to)
R(eview) A(nd) T(each) E(ducational) S(ubjects)!

   This came along sometime after both PLATO I and II
had been developed and had only a 15 key keyset and
a film advance mechanism for a display device (all
PLATO systems since the beginning have used graphics
terminals for display)

---------- response 17
  11/27     13.20     mike b       cornell

        I should point out that the teaching method referred
to in earlier responses as the "Platonic" method is actually
the "Socratic" method. Plato was the formost student of
Socrates, who was famous for teaching by the use of pithy
questions. It is an unfortunate fact of history that none
of Socrates' writings survived the Dark Ages. All we know
of his philosophy comes to us through the works of Plato,
which fortunately _did_ survive.

       And I like "automated" better than "automatic".

            M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB

---------- response 18
  11/28     15.11     deiss       phar

Just to set the record straight: Socrates as interpreted
by Plato thought that all learning is remembering. The
"Socratic" method of dialogue (dialectic) is a device
to help the "learner" remember something he knew all along.
There are few learning theorists today who would seriously
subscribe to such an oversimplification. However, there
is a modern viewpoint which could be construed as a
comtemporary reinterpretation of Socrates. It is the
gestalt theory of learning wherein learing is a "discovery"
of how all the pieces fit together. Thus, under this
new interpretation our job is to provide the proper
environment to help students discover things for themselves
.....hopefully with some enthusiasum as an accompanyment.
I think it was Whitehead who said all Western Philosophy is
footnotes to Plato.

---------- note 360 abort comm
  11/25     16.04     kaufman       uimc

We have repeatedly aborted common and then found the
common was still in ECS. We went into the common block
and hit SHIFT-LAB. Then using the R option from the
Author Mode page, we were able to return the aborted
common to disk, indicating that the common was still in





ECS. (No one was in the lesson at this time.)

Our only guess as to what is happening is that as
long as the lesson is hanging around in ECS. the old
(aborted) copy of the common is still available.

We need to abort the common repeatedly as this is the
only way we can simulate a system crash.

     Joe Kaufman

---------- response 1
  11/25     17.24      kaufman       uimc

Steve/cornell suggested that the common will be aborted
when the ECS copy of the lesson is deleted.

This may be true. If so, we must then wait around
until the lesson goes away or we must force a recondense of
the lesson without the common command.

1) Neither of these solutions is appealing. Could
something better be implemented?

2) If this is the way abort common works, there shouldn't
be a message saying:

   Your common with be aborted when your lesson leaves
   ECS.

         Joe Kaufman

---------- response 2
  11/25     17.44     steve       cornell

     Just to get the record straight..what I said was that
common gets aborted instantly, but the ecs copy sticks
around until forced to leave. I agree that this is not
the way it should be. Any comments?

                 Steve Lionel

---------- response 3
  11/25     19.07     john r       reading

The common stays in ECS until the lessons using are deleted
from ECS either through all users exiting and the space
being needed or through all using lessons being explicitly
recondensed. I believe that any lesson recondensed after
its common is aborted will operate on a new copy of the
common even though other non-recondensed lessons operate on
the old (and invisibly renamed) copy.

I do not agree that this should be changed. Aborted commons
are useful for (1) testing new lessons that manipulate
important common data bases, (2) continuing to run various
lessons though one portion of the common has been damaged
ans should not be returned to disk





Also, consider the system-degrading effects of an -abort-
command in a tight loop if each abort fetched a new common
from disk.

---------- response 4
  11/26     05.08     midden       p

GADS! I think that abort common should stay as it is!
(or perhaps delete all lessons using the common, or
something like that)
I have found it useful to have an abort common as the
first thing in a lesson to make sure that its not written
back to disk (making it read only), but still wishing to
change common while in the lesson. (calc nc1‎nc1+1) type
things, and have it actually not be time slice dependant.
Marshall Midden

p.s. as it is though, it makes a lot of fun. (so to speak)

---------- response 5
  11/26     09.53     kaufman       uimc

Marshall,

I was not talking about the -abort- common command but
rather the abort common option in the common block.

I am not concerned about changing the -abort- command.
Rather, when I exercise the abort option in the lesson's
common block, I would like the common aborted at that time≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤_≤≤_ ____ ____.
If this cannot be done, should not the system display the
warning message I suggested a few notes previous?

Joe Kaufman

---------- response 6
  11/26     10.30     guerra       uimc

Let ME explain: What we want to do is KILL...ANIHILATE...

.....DESTROY the ECS copy of the common. Not only do we
not want it returned to disc, we don't want it, period.
We want to force the system to get a fresh copy of the
common from disk the next time someone enters the lesson,
such that any -initial common- units in the program are
executed. This is no big deal during peak system periods,
when the ECS the aborted common occupies is likely to be
re-allocated within seconds after the last student
leaves the lesson, but last friday night, when our site
alone had 100000 words of ECS allocated, an aborted copy
of common haunted me for hours. All I want is to be able
to blast the varmint out of ECS, so I can get a fresh
copy of the common. I don't care if an engineer has to
pull a handfull of core out of ECS; I just want to disown
the old common.

---------- response 7
  11/26     14.18     white       p





The intention of -abort common- is to allow an author
to keep a messed up copy of a common from being
written back to disk. If you want a fresh copy of
a common from disk, you have to tell the system
it is a different common from that in ECS. To
indicate a different common, all you need to do
is change the name of the common and recondense
the lesson.

When you return an aborted common to disk, it
is not written to disk. However, no error
indication is given.

---------- response 8
  11/27     12.40     john r       reading

You can get a freash copy of the common by aborting the
common and then stop1 recondensing the lesson that used that
common.

---------- response 9
  11/29     13.06     dave fuller       uimc

        Consider the problem from this standpoint, Joe --
you abort the common from ECS (disown it) and, assuming
there is _1_ lesson using the common, all is well. Now, if
there are _2_ lessons using the common, the next time the
common is referenced but the other, still running, lesson,
weird things could happen.
      Somehow I think you're causing more problems than
you solved. I'd rather have a lesson operate on a "doomed"
common for a period that suddenly get given a completely
ancient set of parameters, who may or may not be relevant
to the recent "history" of the running program.

---------- note 364 new report
  11/25     16.45     e avner       pso

New CERL report available:

"Lesson Review" by Larry Francis, Merle Goldstein, and
Eileen Sweeney

A guide to techniques and uses of reviews of PLATO/CAI
lessons, including step-by-step procedures, samples, and
practice reviews.

$5.25 per copy

Please see "aids" DATA-publications for information
on ordering publications.

    Elaine Avner

---------- response 1





  11/25     18.56     hody       med

it seems the price of plato publications is rising at
an alarming rate. if this is true it is extremely regret-
table and should if at all possible be reversed, with
subsidies if necessary.
*
we all agree that plato is so good, what it needs more
than anything else is for the rest of the world to find
out more about it and about its publications.
*
it used to be extremely handy to distribute reprints of
cerl reports when the most costly one was under two
bucks-- now, between the new prices and the added
burden of handling and mailing, i think the distribution
will be less general and thus less helpful to the system
as a whole.
*
ps: are standard (not PLATO) microfiche copies available?

---------- response 2
  11/26     09.13     golden       s

The price is determined mostly by the number of copies one
prints. CERL doesn't have the funds for a large inventory,
so we end up with higher per copy cost.

---------- response 3
  11/26     09.15     tebby       pso

This publication has 154 pages, so it is more expensive
because of length as well as rises in the cost of printing
and the number of copies printed.

---------- response 4
  11/26     09.30     hody       med

thank you

---------- note 373 copycourse
  11/25     18.35     curly       iu

  An interesting thing was discovered by an iu author
the other day....and upon testing I found it to be quite
repeatable. Given the following sequence of events:
1) A is editing a course
2) B using the copy a block option enters the course name
   as the lesson to copy from. He recieves the page
   saying that the course is being edited by A and cannot
   be copied. (shouldnt it check for file type first?)
3) A leaves the course.
4) B inspects the course(he does not have change code and
   enters in inspect mode).
5) A tries to reenter the course. Is told it is being
   edited by B even though B is in inspect only mode.

As sellers would say: 'A priority of 1 out of 10





where 10 is most urgent.'

curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑^↑^↑^curly

---------- response 1
  11/26     17.55     meers       wright

Copy-a-block checks to see if someone is editting the
file before it checks the file type.  I suspect that if
it did the reverse (checked file type first, and then
looked to see if somene was editting) the whole problem
would go away..

---------- note 376 audio
  11/25     18.55     john r       reading

There is a new discussion of PLATO's random access audio
device, the -play- and -record- commands, useful audio
subroutines, and the like available through AIDS.
DATA 'play' or 'record' or 'audio', then NEXT will
take you to the discussion.

Will people with audio concerns please read the discussion
and leave suggestions for additions, deletions, corrections,
etc. in pnotes to me.

---------- note 382 major bug
  11/25     19.12     travers       mxc

On the options page (DATA1 from author mode) pressing t
gives the time followed by 'CDT' rather than 'CST'.

Priority: -1/0 on a scale from 0 to 100.

---------- response 1
  11/26     16.18     blomme       s

Fixed.

---------- response 2
  11/26     18.05     meers       wright

Remember you set your clocks back 1 hour about 4 weeks ago?

        When you did that, you went from CST (Central
Standard Time) to CDT (Central Daylight Time).

        I proudly point you to Old Help Note ¬$241 where
I mentioned the fact that we are now on CDT and that the
clock page wrongly still says CST, but it was Halloween
and no would believe me.

---------- response 3
  11/26     19.35     blomme       s





  For Halloween, it was just another joke; now it is
simply wrong--you have the switch backwards. The system
was changed correctly so that all messages (except the
one noted here) displayed CST instead of CDT.

---------- response 4
  12/01     17.04     meers       wright

gadz

---------- note 384 codewords
  11/25     21.08     jim       pso

entering codewords on courses, datafiles, and new instructor
files still have the "watch as you type" ---- and others
watch as well ---- method of entry. when will this have
the same form as entering a codeword with a lesson?

---------- note 385 -erase-
  11/25     21.23     carstedt       s

  The current -erase- command has the anomalous feature
of inserting a carraige return if the number of spaces
specified extends past the right-hand edge of the screen.
I intend to change this so that extra spaces will be ignored
rather then continued on the next line.

---------- response 1
  11/25     23.44     john r       reading

If you mean that

at     101
erase  128

will erase only line 1, your change will disable numbers
of lessons that either (1) predated the two argument erase
or (2) had only a line and a half of erasing to do and used
an erase with a carefully computed tag instead of a two
argument erase that took extra time to erase empty spaces
on the second line.

---------- response 2
  11/26     08.52     michael       english

Please rethink this one. I can point to a dozen files
that use this method. Before condemning the idea entirely,
though, I'd like to know what advantages the change would
have. If none, why change it?

---------- response 3
  11/26     11.47     warner       iu

The advantage is that at present a command such as
at     n1
erase  40.3





will act very strangely if n1=100x+y¬[1<x<24,y>26¬]
Example, if n1=230, this command will erase
36 chars on 3 alternate≤≤≤≤≤≤__≤_________ lines, and 4 chars on the others.
Perhaps a more convenient way of doing this would be to
change the action after a line of a 2-arg erase command
from a simple CR key to an
at x,y-16 $$ x and y start of last line
I, too, feel that it would be a shame to ignore spaces
which go beyond the end line.

---------- response 4
  11/26     13.51     b sherwood       s

This proposed change is related to implementing "block
erase" on new (intelligent) terminals, where a block is
really a rectangle, not a patchwork of pieces.

It is perhaps understandable that at present the erase
command should wrap around in a strange way, since it is
essentially just a "write spaces" in rewrite mode, but it
doesn't make sense for the future. I think we should
announce that the change will be made after a month or
so, during which time you might search your lessons for
-erase- commands, if you use the present wrap-around
features.

---------- response 5
  11/26     14.10     maggs       law

If this is going to change, I hope the system would
give the poor authors some help in searching out
the potentially affected erase commands. I know that
I have a number of

at     1205  

erase  4≠30

type commands in lessons that antedated the 2 tag
erase, but I haven't the least idea where. As a 
minimum, I would hope that the system would automatically
fix all those erase commands that have no variable
in them such as the above example, and put a warning
on the "last edited by" page of other lessons, or
a temporary condense warning for erases containing
variables.

---------- response 6
  11/27     12.46     john r       reading

Absolutely. Checking all the erase commands of several
hundred lessons by hand is not an easy or a quick job.
I would think an appropriate system fix would, at a minimum,
be a program that does an X search through all the lessons
in an account and lists all erase commands with tags
greater than 63.

---------- response 7
  11/30     23.51     mckeown       com





I agree in general with the previous replies suggesting
that system action is appropriate here. I really see no
reason why a system level conversion could not be done to
ALL situations where an erase command begins at a fixed
screen position and has a fixed tag (regardless of whether
that tag exceeds 63).↓
I would further like to point out that requiring the use
of block erase for multiple line erases is going to make
erasing unknown lengths quite messy. I don't even know how
to do it in one command unless I am willing to set a maximum
and block erase all that every time (quite slow until the
hardware block erase is implemented). Further, trying to do
it in two commands may run afoul of the new non-resetting of
*where* after an erase.↓
I would suggest that the imminence of hardward block erase
does not require the obsolescence of one tag multiple line
erases (at least at this stage).

---------- response 8
  12/01     12.14     shirer       s

Urggg...even an automatic lesson search would not
uncover an erase v1 where v1 is a carefully computed
number-of-spaces-in-a-rectangular-box variable.

Why not leave the -erase v1- action as it is now and
just modify the -erase v1,v2- command? (Yes, you might
need to alter the output list function code) but this
would leave a useful device for non-block-erase
terminals intact.

---------- response 9
  12/01     14.08     b sherwood       s

Very good, Don! We hadn't thought of that. It would
indeed seem that the single-argument form could be
preserved as it is.

---------- response 10
  12/01     15.28     friedman       csa

WHEW!↓
Bruce, I hope you're right!

---------- note 398 datafiles
  11/26     09.28     fay       rtv362

I know this has been discussed before, but I am not aware
of any resolution that may have taken place. In regard to
student performance data:

a) It would be EXTREMELY nice if we had a complement in
   the datafile machinery to the "select students for which
   to see data" which would be "select student(s) for
   which you do NOT want to see data".





b) If there were a systems-level utility lesson for data-
   files which would sort the data by students, then put
   it back in the datafile. Then, when the datafile is
   printed we would be able to view all of the data for a
   given student together w/out having to wade thru dis-
   jointed pieces of data for all students.

Discussion? Comments?

---------- response 1
  12/01     00.18     fay       o

zzzzzzˇzˇˇzˇˇˇˇzˇˇˇˇˇ.ˇˇˇˇˇˇ.

             wha? oh"

Must have dozed off, the response has been so deafening.

---------- note 405 Off hours
  11/26     11.00     rader       s

PLATO will be off 8 am to 4 pm Thursday (Thanksgiving),
and midnight to 10 am Friday morning.

We do not have a backup for the air conditioning for the
disk room, and cannot leave the equipment running
unattended.

---------- response 1
  11/26     13.59     frankel       p

I will be attending from 8 to 4 Thursday; thus, PLATO  should
be up for that period.

---------- response 2
  11/26     14.26     marty smith       mtc

thanks, dave. i hope i can count on that being a for sure,
as i have umpteen million little corrections to make, and
i was counting on the early morning to do them in (so I
wouldn*t miss the football games)

---------- response 3
  11/26     15.30     david       cerlcc

Indeed, thanks.

---------- response 4
  11/26     16.40     golden       s

It now appears that all of the time will be covered. PLATO 
should be up... Thanks.

---------- response 5
  11/26     17.18     rader       s





Many thanks to the software staff volunteers for covering
these periods!

---------- response 6
  11/27     03.16     hody       med

that's fantastic and very much appreciated-- you
are almost as dedicated as medical doctors!

---------- response 7
  11/27     12.47     john r       reading

More so. Doctors won't make house calls, but the software
people are willing to come to their sick patient.

---------- note 414 accounts
  11/26     13.59     warner       iu

        As a newcomer to accounts, I think several points
in the lesson need some revision. First:
        When the lessons in the account file are listed,
the size of each lesson should be listed somewhere. This
becomes somewhat critical when lesson space becomes tight,
and for some file types, i.e. notes files, the size of the
file is not listed anywhere!
        There also should be a way of accessing the DATA
page of lessons in "INSPECT ONLY" mode. This is especially
necessary in the case of "pirated" lessons, since the last
editor is updated by any account action and the identity
of the "pirate" is lost.
        The last-editor information from "acounts" needs
to be entered in the same format as it is in the editor.
That it is not if proved by changing a codeword through
"accounts", then immediately entering the lesson to be
told "Last edited by" yourself!¬D

---------- note 416 accounts 2
  11/26     14.03     warner       iu

        Finally, a hole exists in the security of "accounts"
which can be resolved by returning the ordinal numbers from
course records. This is how a person with author access to
my course got temporary control of my account (no damage
was done...)
        He changed the _name_ of my signon to garbage. Then
he added a new signon, with my name but his password. When
he entered "accounts" under this signon, the lesson let him
in as if he were me, the account director. Finally, he
destroyed the temporary signon and renamed my signon as me,
leaving no trace of his entry but in the "Log of operations"
of the account.

---------- response 1
  11/26     15.33     michael       english

Perhaps a course peopled by account directors only should





be created and controlled by CERL. It is relatively easy
to guarantee that no one will use my records except by
tampering with them through the system course editor. But
most account directors have signons in courses which are
editable -- legitimately so -- by others. Considering the
extent of powers held by an account director, it would seem
a good idea to plug up this small loophole.

---------- response 2
  11/26     17.21     fay       o

How about just putting a special "lock" on the records
of the director?! Such a "lock" could only be altered
by systems personnel; when set, no one (except the director)
could make any changes to his records. It would, in
effect, be a fifth type of user record.

---------- response 3
  12/01     08.57     berger       mfl

That's an interesting idea... since the account
director is likely to be the site director as well,
such a flag set in course records could be used in
several places.

The only other way around it is to be sure that
ONLY responsible people have your course codeword.

---------- note 423 crse pnote
  11/29     15.46     david       cerlcc

Is there any reason why the personal notes directory in
course records is inaccessible if you are in Inspect mode?

---------- response 1
  11/26     18.13     meers       wright

On one ever wrote Inspect Only machinery.

---------- response 2
  11/26     19.47     galcher       uimatha

I was always under the impression that Inspect Only
machinery was made by the Corning Glass Inc.

---------- response 3
  11/26     22.50     judy       cornell

Nope, no one here knows anything about it...

                         judy jeska

---------- response 4
  11/26     22.56     ye ed       iued





        Besides which, don't mention _that_ factory on the 
products of our hallowed supplier, OˇI!
(We hafta butter them up every now and then or the
panels turn sickly green...)

---------- note 424 touch
  11/26     16.04     j predmore       mtc

        pause keys=keynumber
the above seems to be cumbersome in the use of touch
panels. How about numbering the touch squares i thru 16ˆ2?

Why does the enable have to be used with touch,slide
has been simplified?

Why can't the following be made to work?

        unit   unitname
        touchb square number;square number;12,23;etc
        jump   unit1;unit2;unit3;unit4; etc

have the touch command enable the touch pannel and have
the jump command(or jumpt) disable the touch panel?
   This way, we could eliminate the need for an arrow in
branching. We could throw away the enable and disable
commands completely when the touch panel is used.
  How about a notes file to discuss the future direction and
needs of the touch panel users?

---------- response 1
  11/26     16.17     hody       med

this may be an ignorant comment, but why not have a
touch grid address format for touch locations by row
and column the same way as we have the coarse grid for
character- spaced addressing?
*

---------- response 2
  11/26     16.29     bruce iehl       mtc

What john is trying to say is he is in the process of
writing a lesson that uses the touch panel, and is finding
the existing touch commands quite ...ah...incomplete.
The touch command in particular seems to be aimed at use
with an arrow(¬+ c. grid), but using the touch panel along
with normal key input seems to be a special use -- namely,
we haven't even decided on a numbering scheme for the
grid as yet(yes, we know the x,y components are stored in
"key") Why not decide on a numbering scheme, for example:
numbering 0 to 255(as with the fiche) and the top left
(or should it be bottom left?) is 0 (or 1?). Anyways, I
think you can see that we don't really feel like writing
a lot of touch panel lessons, then later have to go back
and rewrite them all. If you are working on this how about
let's discuss this thing in a notes file somewhere with
(cont.)

---------- response 3





  11/26     16.38     bruce iehl       mtc

some projections as to _when_ ¬+ _what_ types of things will
be available.????? At least we will be better able to
organize our present code to minimize the hassel when the
new stuff is added.

Some more suggestions:
  A Insert Touch and Show Touch addition to the editor,
which could put up the grid, and allow editing of touch
-groups-(coming soon we hope). Here each touch location
named in the group would be filled in with the group name,
and locations could be added or deleted from each group.

 A graphic group command to display which sections of the
grid are active in the lesson, for the students information.

---------- response 4
  12/01     09.00     berger       mfl

Some people use the enable and disable commands to do
exactly as they say - selectively enable and disable
the touch panel.

I don't want to see any commands changed such that
some of them enable, while others disable. I would
lose control over my programmed material.

You can use TERM grid in ID mode to see a touch panel
grid.

---------- note 444 t-commands
  11/26     23.33     michael     english

VARIABLES
*tkey*  $$ coarse grid location of touch
*tkeyx* $$ X-grid coordinate of 16≠16 touch grid
*tkeyy* $$ Y-grid coordinate↓*
NON-EXECUTABLE
tgroup  group;1010,2;1515,6,1 $$ defines touch group↓*
COMMANDS $$ executed only if panel touched
              $$ and touch grid has been enabled
thelp   unit1 $$ does a help type jump
thelpop unit2 $$ does a helpop type jump↓*
The above two would also be able to use the format below.
*
tkey    unit1,405,1;unit2,2817,8,2;unit3,group;unit4,1509,3
*causes jump to named unit if touch in attached area
*
Only one TKEY and one THELP(xor THELPOP) active at a time.
Still, a limit would be needed on the number of unit refer-
ences allowed in -thelp- and -tkey- commands.....5-9 maybe?

---------- response 1
  11/27     00.34     koning       csstaff

Does the notation "1515,3,2" mean the touch area at





1515, 3 touch grid units wide, 2 high? And if so,
do you want 1515 to be the bottom left or the top left
square?

---------- response 2
  11/27     00.59     michael       english

That is in fact the way that -touch- is now implemented --
with coarse grid coordinate specifying lower left for three
argument form, middle of box for two argument form.

---------- response 3
  12/01     09.09     jan       park

to add confusion...

QUOTE from AIDS:
        You can use any coarse grid location in the
        tag of -touch-, but all locations are
        rounded DOWN.

so the afore mentioned location of 1515,3,2...would
presumeably be first rounded to 1413,3,2.
*this feature is "necessary" because of the locations of
*the touch "sensitive" beams of the touch panal...however,
*the changing of the location may cause some problems to
*an unaware programmer who has a tight touch pattern
*in which to work.

plan your touch locations as AIDS suggests.

---------- response 4
  12/01     10.45     bruce iehl       mtc

Can anyone answer this: Why insist on linking the touch
panel grid to the course grid? Why can't we just work
in a touch panel grid (and change the existing -touch-
commands)?

---------- note 453 thanks.
  11/27     13.58     k mast       p

The special Thanksgiving display is courtesy of ozzie of
cerl.

---------- response 1
  11/27     14.25     moy       cs196

what about the 1976 calenders?

---------- response 2
  11/27     14.29     frankel       p

They are courtesy of the people listed at the bottom.
(I printed them out.)





---------- response 3
  11/28     09.19     clark       lawyer

what calendar?

---------- note 459 panzers
  11/29     11.32     friedman       wright

wasnt there a lesson based on the game panzerblitz
called panzer????

---------- response 1
  11/30     21.22     iezek       ames

This could probably go in lesson pad instead of archival
general notes. Sigh.

                        M. Iezek

---------- response 2
  12/01     04.50     rich       cs196

        If you were that concerned about it, you could
have written him a p-note telling him so. He would then
be able to delete this g-note. Now that you have responded
that is impossible...

---------- response 3
  12/01     09.02     berger       mfl

1. He has been told a number of times by a number of 
different authors. I doubt that he would have deleted
the note.

2. The game that you are referring to was mentioned
in pad, by, I believe, derrick ward (ward of rotc).
Leave him a personal note and ask him.

(I thought gnotes meant group notes...)

---------- note 461 power fail
  11/29     13.20     harkrader       o

        This morning at 10:43, we experienced a momentary
loss of power for reasons unknown as yet. Many users may
have noted strange terminal output or complete loss of
communication when this occured. For many U of I campus
buildings, the power was not restored for an hour or more.
We at CERL were more fortunate, but we did lose some equip-
ment for a period of time; such as A/C, cooling and lights.
Microwave service was interrupted for about 2 hours. All
devices appear to be functioning, with the exception of the 
line printer and it seems that it will be out of service 
for a while (perhaps as long as Monday, hopefully not). We
will try to keep you posted on it's recovery.





     Al Harkrader

---------- response 1
  11/29     13.30     stan smith       chem

The chemistry microwave site seems to be running about
normal, i.e. 4 to 5 errors/minute. If you are an
engineer and error rate of 1 part in 10ˆ4 sounds good
enough. Of course, if you are a student, 4 to 5
red lights/minute is a bit annoying.

---------- response 2
  11/29     14.15     fortner       p

Printer now working....

---------- note 467 clear
  11/29     16.29     ian       conn

I would like to see a new system term that would
do a full screen erase. Often the white clear key
has weird side effects. Possible names are:
   "clear" "clean" "erase" "blank"

            Anyone else interested?
                 Ian

---------- response 1
  11/30     04.09     stone       pfw

no...doesnt really seem necessary...

     Scott Stone

---------- response 2
  11/30     09.37     char       mathw

... ditto ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇ¬↑ˇchar arthur

---------- response 3
  11/30     19.30     ian       conn

hmm, i still think that it would be easy enough to
implement. often i have found a need for the white
clear key on the terminal, as i'm sure have others.
also, it seems that too often hitting this button
causes the error light to light up, and occasionally
even throws the terminal into altfont...

perhaps this only occurs out here in the remote sites,
but nevertheless, it is a problem...





i agree that it would be very low on the priority list,
but i still feel it should have a priority.

ian

---------- response 4
  12/01     09.57     judy       pso

You could write your own -term clean- unit and stick it
in all of your lessons. Pressing TERM puts the student
into a special type of sequence, which occasionally
can mess up the intended flow of your lesson. If you
make your own -term clean-, you would be more aware of
possible problems, and better able to fix them should they
arise.

You might want the "clean" unit to reload your charset
at the same time it cleans. I understand that bad
charsets are a problem for remote sites, too.

---------- response 5
  12/01     18.38     fisher       conn

What he is saying is not only for students. Often, authors
have the same problem while editing or using a lesson.
At this site, at least, there are many times when a
line error occurs which messes up the screen, and we press
the clear key. Then the error light goes on, and the
terminal goes into altfont. When in a bad day, this can
become very aggravating, having to take the time every
five minutes to go back to where you can replot the screen;
hitting the clear key messes up the screen more than
the line error did.

I feel that a feature like this, where NO error would
occur while trying to clear the screen, would be a great
help to remote students AND authors.

fishswine

---------- note 469 course rec
  11/29     20.50     david       hebrew

Sometimes we leave all of our students a message via
course records that something is taking place on a 
certain day (like an hour exam on Tuesday, the n↑ˆth↑ˇ of 
November). After that day, we want to delete the message
(which is of no further use.). Could some kindly sysprog
with a few minutes/hours to spare please put in an option
to "delete messages to all students" in course records?

---------- response 1
  11/29     22.13     dowling       ames

        You can send them all a blank message. This will 
remove the old message, so they will no longer see it.





It will not,  unfortunately, save them the stop at the
message page on the way in.  Perhaps a better procedure
(with present facilities) is to leave a message saying
that there is no message at this time.
        Probably the simplest implementation of the desired
function would be to allow  "no message" as an option when
composing the message to be sent.  One would then be able
to review what messages were being deleted (if desired),
and retain any still current. ¬ˇW¬≤↑ˇC¬≤↑ˇD

---------- note 472  talker
  11/30     04.11     stone       pew

  Is there any possibility off adding a 't' option
in general notes to page the author of the note
like the option available in personal notes?

No big problem, im just lazy i guess...

               Scott Stone

---------- response 1
  11/30     10.56     woolley       p

maybe..

---------- note 474  inspect
  11/30     09.38     david wallace        mathg

  The leaving off of Inspect Codes of lessons
is a great thing for new authors.  They can go in and SEE
how a difficult thing is done!  This is probably the
best thing for new authors.  Unless there is something
totally secret in a lesson,  the author would be doing
a great favor for authors who may not be as advanced
as he is.  Of course, if you don't want people to see
something, put an inspect code on it.  But don't just
have one on for the _____ of it!  I commend all advanced
authors who help this way!

---------- response 1
  11/30     13.29     sellers       arizona

Some, like myself put inspect codes on because the vast
amount of patchy coding.  All in all I agree that good
coding should be visible when practical, but a lot of code
is not the shining example it could be.  I wish all good
code had a gold star by it for easy identification.  Maybe
this is a job the tooth fairy can do on her days off.

---------- response 2
  12/01     00.15     fay       o

!Her"?





---------- response 3
  12/01    09.07    berger       mfl

I learned to program in tutor to a great extend by looking
at other people's code. I never copied anything without
permission of the author.

If people leave inspect codes off of their lessons, they
may learn of a bug that they haven't spotted themselves.

Anyone that has an inspect code on their lesson because
of "patchy" code is making a big mistake - you may
learn better way to do something.

At the language lab, we take inspect codes off of
our lessons as soon as we find them (with a few
stubborn exceptions).. No one has yet stolen our
code.

---------- response 4
  12/01     13.58     banks       mfl

How about being able to press data on the page that
says: You do not have the proper codeword...

To find out who was the last editor. rather than tying
up tebby/pso's time?

(Yes, it was brought up before--but it is worth repeating)

---------- note 477 charsetbug
  11/30     14.27     wagle       iu

           Execution Error

       Error occurred in lesson - charset

                    in unit - expand

       Current state - regular (pre-arrow)

       Last command - block
       4th command (not counting comments or continuations)
 
       Error type - bounds err

       Join sequence - fromedit 4

 is repeatable.
 happens right after I press -data- to edit my charset

                               good luck....

---------- response 1
  11/30     15.00     wagle       iu

as this happened while i was overhauling my lesson,





the charset in which this happened is no longer there...
however, this charset was an exact copy of another charset
in the same lesson (same part, same name) which was the
second block preceeding the one which caused the err..

---------- response 2
  12/01     15.37     midden       p

More information? I wish that a copy of the lesson
could have been made before you ceased the error by
-help1-ing.
        Oh well...
        Marshall Midden


---------- note 478 Colorado
  11/30     14.27     slayton       arizona

Does anyone know how many terminals there are at the site(s)
in and around Denver, Colorado and if they are readily
available to the public??

        Dave Slayton


---------- response 1
  12/01     08.54     tebby       pso

See program 'network' for information on terminals in
Colorado. As to their availability to the public, you
will have to contact the site director and ask him that
question. If you need signons of any of the site directors,
I can supply them. Some site directors are not on the
system often, but I can probably find you a contact if
you do not want to use the U.S. Mail! 

           Tebby Lyman (tebby of pso)

---------- note 482 NCC-76
  11/30     23.05     hody       med

    ** National Computer Conference- NCC 76 **

The deadline for submission of completed papers for
NCC-76 is nearing fast: JANUARY 5. Aspirants should
contact Dr. Stanley Winkler, IBM, 18100 Frederick Pike,
Gaithersburg, Md 20760, tel. (301) 840-7384. The
conference will be held June 7-10 in The Big Apple.
(Quips about "core" will not be appreciated)
*
One can hope that there will be sufficiently impartial
referees that PLATO papers, if any, can get a fair trail.
*
Anyone who wants to submit a paper and who can not get
particulars on format, etc, sufficiently fast from
Dr. Winkler, please leave me a p-note for further data.





*** end of notes ***