+++ plato iv group notes +++ Public Notes notes beginning feb 9, 1976 file pbnotes4 printed at 1:54 pm on june 12, 1976 ---------- note 0 file err 02/09/76 01.21 anderer ee On a dataout command, I received a zreturn value of 1, which is a 'file error', according to aids. Ok. But what's a file error? My fault or the systems? dg ---------- response 1 02/09/76 02.55 dave fuller uimc I thought the descriptions in AIDS were a little more clear. The actual error means that you do not have a dataset attached at the time of i/o request. You should ALWAYS check "zreturn" after a file is attached to see if all goes well ("zreturn" < 0) to avoid this error, and make absolutely sure that files are re-attached after a jumpout to another lesson. Perhaps the AIDS descriptions could be made more point blank at the very beginning of the datain/out, and dataset discussions. ---------- note 2 thank you 02/09/76 03.19 dave fuller uimc Whatta plethora of goodies the systems staff has graced us with in the last 2 days: Woolley -- final absolution of group notes unto accounts directors Walker -- packc (hallelujah!) Sherwood-- Temporary common limit extended Blomme -- collect command (with clusters and harrassment award to Todd Little) Andersen-- Author deletion option in site Fixes to pause, touch Thanks, folks! ---------- repsonse 1 02/09/76 08.46 john r reading amen. ---------- response 2 02/09/76 09.48 b sherwood s You are welcome! ---------- response 3 02/09/76 14.02 hinton ssu Another thank you. ndh ---------- note 4 logsite 0 02/09/76 08.44 golden s Now that each director of a logical site can decide if he wants authors deleted in times of short ECS, I should like to divide logical site 0 (network) into two sites. One will have author deletion, one will not. Site directors from site network should let me know which way they want to go. ---------- response 1 02/09/76 19.21 michael english I hope you put the dial-ups on the author non-delete site. ---------- note 6 yawnnnnn 02/09/76 08.50 chen mfl Ok, ok, ok, OK!!!!!! I get the message!!!!!!! (my yawnnnnnnn note) People who want to stay up during owl night, has a good reason to...I guess 16 responses to my 'yawnnnnnn' note looks like that lots of people would like to say 'Good Morning!' yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ---------- response 1 02/09/76 16.51 roberta mfl Sorry about these notes. This sign-on will be deleted as soon as possible. ---------- note 11 less delet 02/09/76 10.40 friedman csa I recently asked for help in interpreting some errtype=2 error returns to my router (note¬$288). As one of the replies, Larry White very nicely tabulated the various things which cause errtype=3 (thanks, Larry). A copy of his response is below:↓↓ *response* 02/06/76 16.44 white p↓ The following "condense" errors have returned errtype=3:↓ No ECS, but still within site allocation Lesson Deleted No room in ECS for common Lesson tables full (unlikely) Site memory allocation exceeded↓ "lesson deleted" is applicable as a "memory" error only for authors, so on the next version of Plato, this will return errtype=2, not 3. This should remove one occurance of incorrect errtype=3 errors.↓↓ (Discussion continued in first response. Press LAB.) ---------- response 1 02/09/76 10.48 friedman csa Now, the point of this note is that **** "lesson deleted" case. I used to give a message in my router that warned the student getting errtype=3 that either there is not enough memory, or the author is working on the lesson. This was confusing, so I took it out. But it would be no more helpful to have to say "either there is something wrong with the lesson, or the author is working on it just now." What I think we really need is a new value of errtype, or some other way of distinguishing this case.↓ Again, I second the suggestion (made in the past on several occasions) that system variable errtype does not return enough information; certainly, it does not return nearly as much information as is available to the system.↓ (Continued in next reply; press LAB.) ---------- response 2 02/09/76 10.51 friedman csa It seems to me that errtype=2 ought to imply that there is something wrong with the lesson and that errtype=3 ought to imply that ECS (in total, or site, or tables, etc.) is short. Otherwise, how does one go about correcting an error, or even deciding whether there is an error to correct? (I -output- the error situation to my datafile just so that I know what my students are getting and so that I can correct errors in lessons.) And how does one give any reasonable message to the student?↓ How about it....please? ---------- response 3 02/09/76 13.01 keith s matha I agree -- the present designations are sufficiently confusing that consultants cannot deal with them. I would also like to see a separate errtype value designated for the case of no problem (ok), as opposed to the present value of 0, which makes it indistinguishable from the case of an unknown problem. ---------- response 4 02/09/76 13.09 friedman csa It would be consistent with "usual" Plato usage for the "no problem" indicaton to be shown by a value of -1. ---------- note 15 stud notes 02/09/76 10.59 stan smith chem The new group notes feature is very nice, however since the PLATO system is used mainly for classroom instruction I wonder if these new note features can be used with the system router to provide the long promised system level note features which would allow students to send comments on lesson material to instructors and lesson authors. Since there has never seemed to be a shortage of ways for users of the UI PLATO IV system with author records to communicate with each other, I assume that making it possible for students to send notes to instructors and lesson authors has a higher priority than communications between other user types. ---------- response 1 02/09/76 11.06 warner iu We are using groupnotes with the iudemo router to store student comments. However, students have been long used to using a notes-type file, now found in lesson indiana, and I would like to see them continue to do so. I am not sure how the complexities of group notes will affect students not used to using a notes file. To see how to connect group notes to a router, see the third page of help in "notes", from the page which asks "What group notes file?" ---------- response 2 02/09/76 11.10 maggs law We have had very good luck with the law student notes file (created by clark of lawyer). Unfortunately the new group notes setup seems to me to be too hard to use for such non-computer-oriented types as law students. (Our law student notes contain extensive how-to-use explanations on the screen at all times.) We do begrudge the high ecs charge for running our own notes file, and would agree that there should be a high priority on a notes file usable by computer-naive students. ---------- response 3 02/09/76 11.11 stan smith chem To conserve ECS we use the system router (mrouter) so I don't believe the proceedures suggested are applicable. ---------- response 4 02/09/76 11.29 john r reading We also use a special notes file for our computer-naive classroom teachers. The main page looks much like any other notes file, but long experience has shown us the need to (1) jump a teacher directly to insert mode on the write-a-note page, (2) automatically label the note for the teacher when she indicates the note is complete. Groupnotes would serve us well if it had these features an option. ---------- response 5 02/09/76 12.09 woolley p Again -- a new "student comments" feature is in progress which will be more appropriate for inexperienced users. There should be some kind of description of what it will be like soon. ---------- response 6 02/09/76 13.41 hinton ssu I have been hoping to use "groupnotes" facilities for a lessons which would ina sense extended the time available for class discussion: students would enter short essays assigned as homework, and could then read other students' responses and enter their own comments, etc. We have set up a "group- notes" file for this, but the -help- on "groupnotes" is clearly not designed for student users. I was going to write my own---can anyone tell me how soon the student use machinery alluded to will be available ? ndh ---------- response 7 02/09/76 14.26 carter comm Hinton, you radical. It should be obvious that such student-to-student communication falls outside of the traditional plato notions of "classroom instruction". What are you trying to do anyway, get your students so actively involved with the material that they need to think? I guess you realize some of the implications of this direction of your efforts. These sorts of facilities could be extended to allow geographically-dispersed conferences an nearly any academic subject. Input from outside experts could effectively destroy the provincialism that governs so many universities. Better get back to more traditional activities, before it is too late. With tongue-firmly-in-cheek, George ---------- response 8 02/09/76 17.33 blomme s The communications between students and lesson authors and the provision for "groupings" of people to inter-communicate have BOTH had highest priority for quite some time (in the sense that each has had one person devoting full time to its implementation). Neither is the sort of project completed overnight; as it happened, the months of work to produce a finished product were completed first in the case of the group notes. If the generality of the group notes structure makes possible (albeit less than conveniently) some start towards the other problem, please view that as fortuitous and not as either an improper solution of the problem or lack of interest in it. I think that the students comments handling may yet be quite some weeks off, so people should not be expecting such a facility to appear right away. ---------- note 19 erase 02/09/76 11.13 stull med Could the systems peoples please advise as to when the change was made on the system that 'erase' does not reset 'where'?? Seems to be an unannounced change that is alter- ing the masses of our lessons..ie' overwrites, misposition- ing, etc.... ---------- response 1 02/09/76 16.41 b sherwood s ? I just ran a test unit and found that indeed -erase- DOES reset "where". Until a couple months ago it DIDN'T. Or rather, it used to set system variable "where" to the beginning of the erase area, but it didn't send the corresponding -at- to the terminal. So if you then wrote something with no -at-, the writing appeared AFTER the erase area, but if you did an "at where", the writing appeared at the beginning of the erase area. There was much discussion in notes, but apparently no "system features note". ---------- note 21 chem notes 02/09/76 11.42 chabay chem There is now a chemistry group notes file (called "chemnotes". natch.) We'd like to encourage everyone involved in writing or using PLATO chemistry lessons to use it for exchanging ideas and information, and reporting problems with lessons. If you're involved in these activities, please send a pnote to me or to Stan Smith, and we'll put you on the list. ---------- note 24 hardware 02/09/76 13.05 mike b cornell As a matter of general interest, when is PLATO getting the new disk drive it needs, and what is the status of the negotiations with CDC for the new machine? M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 1 02/09/76 14.14 golden s The negotiations could be completed any day, but no one knows just when it will happen. We probably will not get a new disk-drive until negotiations are complete. ---------- note 26 TOBFer 02/09/76 13.18 k nortrup ee Here's one for the not-too-likely-to-normally- happen-but-just-the-same-its-an-error department: unit blop circle n1,256,256 pause calc n1‎4n1/3 jump blop * If n1 is started at anything >0, soon the circle * spills over the screen, right? Now, break the * pause a few more times and you obtain a * "TUTOR output buffer full" execution error. * This isn't the kind of thing you run into * everyday, but nonetheless, -circle- isn't a * graphing command, and "aids" says to report..... ---------- response 1 02/09/76 15.06 white p Thanks. Maybe AIDS should change its writeup on Tutor output buffer overflow, and mention that there are some commands that can give you that error, such as: A loop of -time[l¬Ir]- commands. Very large circles, which would take lots of time for the system to compute, but most of whose lines wouldn't be displayed anyway. ---------- note 29 2/1 : 508 02/09/76 13.55 nudelman css Does anyone know an answer to the problem outlined in public note 508 (archive 2/1/76)? * Mark Nudelman * ---------- response 1 02/09/76 15.44 buz phar no simple answers...by the way, you connot alter ntries via a calc...so you can't even do it the way you suggested. one answer would be to define you're own variable (stries) and do all the adding via an iarrow command. *buz* ---------- note 33 greek char 02/09/76 14.38 yamada mxc does anyone know of a complete Greek charset? ---------- response 1 02/09/76 14.53 sacco conn Try lineset library: lineset name 'greek.' Joe S. ---------- response 2 02/09/76 15.09 kaufman uimc Also, in lesson uagreek, charset uagreekk. In lesson testu, charset soupchars has Greek characters for all the non-system micro greek characters. The microtable in testu, greekmicro has the complete greek alphabet. Joe Kaufman ---------- response 3 02/09/76 16.53 wagle iu i have one i like pretty well, p-note or term talk me if you wish to check it out... periagl ---------- response 4 02/11/76 10.32 kehoe shs ... Does this mean that you are writing a Greek lesson? If so, leave me a pnote because I have a student here interested in reviewing Greek. Thanks. Dave Kehoe Springfield High School ---------- note 34 WHY?? 02/09/76 14.43 oi cerl if there is not enough memory allocation why make us waste good money calling up . Rather, just don't let the user on the system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WHY??????????? WHY???????????WHY????????????WHY???????????? ---------- response 1 02/09/76 16.31 white uimatha I suggest that dial-up ports be disconnected completely. That would solve the problem. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 12.42 oi cerl white uimatha your comment is well taken please excuse the suggestion. also see NOTE "Apology". ---------- response 3 02/11/76 00.47 kent unl Natch: Nc available ECS => busy signal on phone... ---------- note 38 snke/pole 02/09/76 15.42 olson ced First: Does anyone know the name of the medical symbol that has a snake around the pole? (I don't even know if it's a snake or a pole) Second: Does anyone know of a charset that I can -use- that has that symbol in it? (or a charset I could copy) Thanks much... Dennis ---------- response 1 02/09/76 15.55 warner iu 1) caduceus 2) no ---------- response 2 02/09/76 16.26 silver ve Leave a note in "healthauth!. ---------- response 3 02/09/76 23.02 avner s There are two symbols commonly used 1) The caduceus (symbol of Mercury, messenger of the gods and the underworld [not the mob, the other one]) which has two snakes around a winged staff. This one is used by the military medical services and some others. 2) The staff of Aescapulus (symbol of the god of medicine) which has a single snake around a forked staff. This one is used by the AMA and some others. ---------- response 4 02/10/76 13.32 ken conn I can get you a rather nice drawing of the Satff(wand) of Aescapulus. Leave a p-note or page me sometime... ---------- response 5 02/11/76 11.18 larry north ve The real symbol is available on any Plato keyset. See below. $ ---------- response 6 02/12/76 21.19 gutfreund css well if you read this far back you have earned the right to know this....lesson multchar still not publically announ- ced, is a charset designer for any size char array..it is operational but does not yet have all the features we want. ---------- note 41 sc 02/09/76 16.20 k mast p A very brief statement of what the proposed Student Comments facility will be is in group notes file 'scnotes'. The statement leaves many un-answered questions concerning details, but covers basically what the facility will do. Please contact me if you have specific questions or feel that the proposed facility (as described) is lacking in major aspects. ---------- response 1 02/10/76 10.32 friedman csa Thanks, Kim. ---------- note 42 packc bug 02/09/76 16.21 rick mfl There's an interesting bug in the -packc- command. Consider the following code: packc prob,text,length They aren't Apples aren't Mary and John aren't According to the advertised behaviour of the command, each new line should be a new condition. However, tests show that the following is the case: _prob_ _length_ _text_ -1 2 T 0 10 ey aren't 1 15 Apples aren't 2 13 Mary and Jo 3 9 n aren't After careful scrutiny, I discovered that the "h" in "length" (the final character in the line) was ALSO being taken as a delimiter! (huh?) ---------- response 1 02/10/76 17.39 b sherwood s We'll look at this. Thanks. ---------- response 2 02/18/76 00.19 walker s This problem is fixed on non-prime time version. Will be fixed on prime time soon. ---------- note 45 d or D? 02/09/76 16.35 k mast p Many people have asked that to be consistant, we should somehow combine 'd' and 'D' of the notes index page to allow both functions under 'd'. Can anyone explain to two system programmers how this is possible? The only thing we can think of is that by pressing 'd' you go to another options page that asks you what you wish to do, read personal notes, or write personal notes. If the above is what is intended, then please explain why you wish to have an extra keypress to accomplish what is quite adequate right now. ---------- response 1 02/09/76 16.50 fritz ames I see nothing wrong with the way it is (other than a small [very small] loss in aesthetic appearance). Please leave it the way it is. ---------- response 2 02/09/76 16.51 clark lawyer Maybe for clarity it would be nice to also show the "B" option (which still works!). I would object to the present setup only on aesthetic grounds. ---------- response 3 02/09/76 17.06 gilpin peer The only sensible way I can think of for this to be done would be to have a Pnote directory. This would list exist- ing pnotes, giving the sender-name/course/date/time for each together with a number or letter to use for accessing. LAB1 on the directory page would allow the user to write a pnote. For myself, I think things are fine as they are. ---------- response 4 02/09/76 19.45 stone research no, please, don't change it again!! ---------- response 5 02/09/76 22.40 warrens uw Or for the young at heart, who wish the beauty of pattern: NOTES... blah... ¬6 a. SYSTEM NOTES.................(read) b. PUBLIC NOTES.................(read ¬+ write) c. GROUP NOTES..................(read ¬+ write) d. PERSONAL NOTES...............(read) e. PERSONAL NOTES..................(write) f. REPORT TERMINAL TERMINAL(S).....(write) ---------- response 6 02/09/76 23.27 daleske ames I like the consistency of the idea of having the index of Pnotes! This would allow a much quicker method for finding the note that one wishes to read. The present method, one has to page back and forth, which certainly must be taking unneccessary cpu time (and possibly disk accesses?). The major factor against the change would be that people would use it as a storage place more readily since they would not need to page through the notes. This need to page causes one to delete as fast as possible. John ---------- response 7 02/10/76 11.00 maggs law I read an article recently on direct coupling of brain waves to computers. This could easily be adapted for PLATO by plugging an alpha monitor into one of the external sockets. Then when you wanted to write rather than read pnotes, you would just meditate according while pressing "d". ---------- response 8 02/10/76 12.00 lombardo ed 1 vote for what we have now. ---------- response 9 02/10/76 13.34 ken conn Yes, I too think that what the system programmers created now looks and works quite fine. (And, really, it doesn't take that long to get used to hitting "d" instead of "c"...) ---------- response 10 02/10/76 20.02 hinton ssu It's the lower case/upper case and the single space/double space differenc that bothers people. If it really preys on the mind, then why not d. Public Notes e. Personal Notes to You f. whatever (I forget....) That is, if it's worth it. ndhh ---------- note 51 notesave 02/09/76 17.03 swenson a When a note is saved, there is a message to the effect that it will require a certain number of words to store it in the editor. I was just advised that a note I had saved would take 51 words. When I tried to insert that same note into a new one to send along I found that the 72 words indicated as space available were not sufficent to store the note. How much is being left out of the word count when you save a note? ---------- response 1 02/09/76 17.11 clark lawyer It worked for me...is it possible that the saved note had too many lines in it? ---------- response 2 02/09/76 19.09 woolley p It is possible that a note you save will have too many lines to insert in a new note, because when you save it some extra header lines are added to the top. To get around this, IS the note into a lesson, and then save only what you need. ---------- response 3 02/10/76 13.13 m swenson mtc Then the lenght of the header information is not taken into account in the actual number of saved words reported? ---------- response 4 02/10/76 13.14 k mast p Yes, it is, but it you also must have enough lines! ---------- note 54 mo' notes 02/09/76 17.31 bruce iehl mtc I am probably imagining things, but it seems to me that in the last few months there has been a general increase in the number of notes written by famous CERL staff members in _non_-systems notesfiles. I must say I like the trend and hope it will continue! I am curious as to the cause though. Has a great dark cloud lifted at CERL or perhaps this is the result of a brilliant management decision designed to increase communication and understanding between various segments of the plato population? ---------- response 1 02/09/76 23.30 daleske ames I suppose it is because of the addition of vertical segments. Since we only previously had horizontal segments, people tended to stratify....? John ---------- response 2 02/10/76 09.22 judy pso I think it is a cyclic pattern, Furthermore, after months of work, several big projects are nearing "completion"-- witness the burst of features last weekend. When visible progress is made, everybody feels more cheerful and hence more notes! ---------- response 3 02/11/76 11.38 michael english Regretably, it appears that many of the new GNOTE files being created are tending to be exclusionary, opting to put all non-recognized authors on write-only basis. In some cases this is appropriate, but I think it's a bad policy to adopt in general since it tends to isolate author- ing groups. One of the ways which some authors use to keep in touch with the activities and concerns of other groups is by reading their notesfiles and commenting once in a while. This function is thwarted by excessive access restrictions. ---------- note 56 presspause 02/09/76 17.53 fritz ames According to AIDS: "Attempts to excecute more than one -press- per second are automatically slowed down by the system." Now, this seems perfectly reasonable and safe to me. BUT... Why do we poor folk trying to accomplish something legitimate with press have to have that inherent pause? What I'm saying is, slowing more than one press/sec is fine. but why slow the first one? Oftentimes, a press is the only way to get around some problem (especially since there is no way to initially enter judging except by a -press next-... hint hint hint), and the pause is a royal pain. Couldn't there be some check put in so that the pause is inserted ONLY if the user is trying to excecute more than the legal amount of presses? ---------- response 1 02/09/76 18.27 stewart arizona I think that this is a great idea!! Often I have wanted to press just one key and have had second thought about it when I ran into the one second pause. It seems that a user should note be slowed down for executing just one pause. How about it system programmers??? Stewart ---------- response 2 02/09/76 23.40 daleske ames "....for executing just one _press_...." a-picky-but-carefully-John ---------- response 3 02/10/76 01.27 kent arizona I too would like a "faster first -press-", but pressing NEXT is not the only available method of entering judging. In fact, if you want to force judgment, it is faster to use: -time 0.75-, even though AIDS gives: -press next- as an example of lesson-initiated judging in its description of -loada-. If you want the student to initiate judging in some manner other than NEXT, you might be able to use -jkey- or -touch-. Jonathan Kent ---------- response 4 02/10/76 07.44 daleske ames We do NOT want the .75 pause for initiating judging!!! We merely want a non-kludgey or at least a fast kludgey way in which to initiate the judging sequence. Whether with -press- or with -time- the minimum time is .75 seconds. We do realize that allowing less than .75 seconds could be detrimental to the system, were someone to put a tight loop around such a command. (perhaps?) John ---------- response 5 02/10/76 09.31 judy pso I have also bumped up against problems with the 1 sec. limit on -press-, but only when I wanted to do it several times. I am curious about how you are using -press- where ONE 1 sec. delay is bothersome. If you are doing any screen display at all. won't the 1 sec. delay be used up while the display is finishing? ---------- response 6 02/10/76 10.03 fritz ames We are doing no display -- it's used to initiate judging to analyze a passed-in string. The press ends up taking almost as much time as the parsing.... ---------- response 7 02/10/76 15.53 roper siu The delay on -press- once was instrumental in opening up our games router to the entire world--aaugh! It would be nice if it were changed. Quetzal ---------- response 8 02/11/76 10.11 fritz ames If you were doing what I think you were doing.... then you're asking for trouble! Ie, -press stop1- or some such is a very chancy way of getting rid of someone -- all you need do is step thru it and it no work no more... ---------- note 57 collect 02/09/76 17.57 elston rhrc The collect command is nice but there are still a few things that might make it more useful. For instance, -something like -jkey-, that is, some other way to terminate input other than time intervals or exact key count. -something like "jcount" if the above is implemented. -something like the -keys=x- feature of -pause- to eliminate unwanted keys. of course. this can be done with a loop but it would seem simpler to throw it away at the system level. If these things would _greatly_ degrade the input capability then they should not be considered but if they do not require too much overhead then they would be nice. Suggested format: collect start var,count,jkey1,jkey2,,,jkeyn,keys=x,x,x Example: collect n1,10,touch(0,0),ext(n11),keys=touch,ext ---------- response 1 02/09/76 18.51 blomme s Several different things are being considered in the way of expansion of the capabilities of the command. The first is likely to be something of the form "keys=" to limit the keys accepted. Also a way to specify other means of termination is being explored. Unfortunately it appears that certain limitations in space will prevent implementing something as general as an "endkeys=" type construct. One alternative might be the specification of a single additional "endkey" in addition to the standard terminators. The ability to specify segmented variables to store into has also been considered. Since we seemed to have a useful basic form (and since the main goal was to reduce the computing overhead), we have released the command in its current basic state. Implementation of any of these other niceties may be some time off. ---------- note 58 dualchars 02/09/76 18.26 schramm cs317 Is there a way to load two different character sets into the terminal at once? I'm trying to write a lesson with pictures and Russian responses to the pictures, and it takes too long to switch back and forth. ---------- response 1 02/09/76 18.30 stewart arizona The only way I know of would be to merge the required characters into one charset and load it into the terminal. If you need more than 128 characters, than there is just no way around loading one character set and then the other. ---------- response 2 02/09/76 19.26 rick mfl If you wouldn't be doing too much writing, you could do the following-- * Load the charset for the pictures you'd need * Load a Russian alphabet Lineset * Plot all your pictures in -size 0- (this will give you the altfont chars you loaded) * Plot all your Russian in -size 1- (this will cause the system to use the lineset). If you need to do a lot of writing, this isn't quite as satisfactory, since -size 1- writing takes so much longer than -size 0-. ---------- response 3 02/10/76 08.13 berger mfl Just so you know: There is a HARDWARE limitation, inherent to the terminal, that prevents you from having more than 128 alternate characters loaded at any given time. ---------- response 4 02/10/76 09.48 judy pso Within the 128 character limitation, if it HAPPENS that 1) all of your letters reside in slots 1-64 of charset A 2) all of your pictures are in slots 65-128 of charset B THEN you can (quite legally and successfully) say charset mylesson,A charset mylesson,B Notice that 1) you still only get 128 characters total 2) each time you encounter the two charset commands (as in an ieu). you will reload both sets. ---------- response 5 02/10/76 10.28 mike b cornell You might also consider drawing your _pictures_ with a lineset. With pictures, the slower plotting of -size- >0 is much less noticable, and there are already Russian charsets on the system (I'm not sure about linesets). M¬ ike≤≤≤≤٧B ---------- response 6 02/10/76 11.07 maggs law Look at lesson rfly, where Paul Tenczar got around the problem by only loading Russian capital letters, thus leaving enough room in his charset for the graphic characters. He then has a micro that types these letters when the student types lower case. You can also take advantage of the fact that a number of latin letters are the same as certain cyrillic ones, e.g. MOCKBA, CCCP, to further limit the number of characters you have to store, though you will need a crazy micro to every write with such a setup. ---------- response 7 02/10/76 15.31 al mfl Something that we have done here in the past is to pull only the letters that we needed (not even all the caps) and the parts of the pictures that we needed into one charset. If you overrun the 126 (2 unprintables) limit by not more than a small number of chars, you could put some in char commands and swap some characters in and out. ---------- note 66 -varrow- 02/09/76 20.09 koning csstaff This may seem like a really strange idea, but with the note a little while back about the -press- command I thought I would bring it up: How about a command that 'simulates' an -arrow- in that it puts you in post-arrow state and enables answer and all those nice commands, but rather than taking the string from the terminal and displaying the arrow it would take the string from student variables, for example: varrow str,len A command like this, especially when combined with the -answerv- command (if/when implemented) would make scanning and manipulation of character strings very easy. Consider for example how you could do a keyword search in a notes lesson: varrow keywd,len answerv whatiwant,len2 jump found no jump getnextnote Is this possible/desirable/difficult/easy/outofthequestion? ---------- response 1 02/09/76 21.02 clark lawyer It seems to me that this is easy enough to simulate using arrow, press, and loada. Maybe other authors have a real need, but I don't think it saves much space or time. ---------- response 2 02/09/76 23.48 daleske ames The time it takes to execute the arrow/press/loada is quite high!! This is a bad kludge. The idea presented by this note is an excellent way around this kludge. Fritz and I are presently working on a lexical analyzer and have had many problems in attempting to make the bugger take a string out of previously stored vars. As a matter of fact, the []$:$:$:ed arrow/press/loada takes longer than our analyzer! John ---------- response 3 02/10/76 08.14 berger mfl I can think of a number of uses of such a feature... I would really like to see it implemented. ---------- response 4 02/10/76 12.10 tenczar s "being able to switch into judging state at any time" is on the list of jobs to be done...indeed, "auto-breaking" judging was an important step in doing this...however, there are just so many more important jobs needing to be done, that this one is at least 9 months off. ---------- response 5 02/10/76 23.52 daleske ames Hurray! We can wait for some time... Just knowing it is coming is a great aid for impatient people... Thank you for letting us know. John ---------- note 68 Math 02/09/76 21.06 blewis unidel Does anyone know of any math lessons concerning the topics logic, proof or truth sets. ---------- response 1 02/09/76 21.57 hobbs politics You could try lesson 'pfwlogic', by john stratton, (stratton/pfw). ---------- response 2 02/10/76 09.26 gilpin peer The ultimate PLATO lessons on rigorous logical proof have been/are being prepared by Harvey Gelder (gelder/cerl). ---------- response 3 02/10/76 09.33 gelder cerl You might look at proof0,proof1,proof2, and so on to proof6, the last not quite finished, which deal with the proof of theorems from algebra. John Gilpin's note is too laudatory--thanks John--as the ultimate in proof has yet to be written. HMGelder ---------- note 72 dropstor 02/09/76 23.23 mike cornell Here's a plea you have probably heard before.... How about a function key (such as STOP) to allow one to enter a lesson while retaining the magic SAVE buffer? When I think of all the lessons that imitate the system editor to a greater or lesser degree, where life could be simpler if an -inhibit dropstor- had been available at the author mode page.... And various other lessons, for storing notes.... It seems a harmless request. Mike Huybensz ---------- response 1 02/10/76 09.35 warner iu I have repeatedly asked for this at the systems level, and have been repeatedly told by the sysprogs: Forget it! No way,Charlie!≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤ ______ ___ __ ___ ______ It seems that the save buffer appears in variable storage beginning at word 644, and the length of the storage is adjusted to fit the size of the save buffer by commands available only to system lessons. It does seem that _something_ could be done along these lines, though, if the sysprogs would only do it. See lesson "printer" for further information on the "Free the Save Buffer" movement. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 13.11 k mast p We have ideas on how to 'free' the save buffer, but no one has yet the time to consider such a request. ---------- note 77 alarm 02/10/76 00.09 schramm cs317 I've heard there is an "alarm" that can be set on the terminal that will flash a message at the time set. Is this true, and if so, how do I set it? ---------- response 1 02/10/76 00.13 loitz o Try typing 'alarm' on the author mode page. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 00.35 dave fuller uimc There is a whole list of lessons that might interest you, available under option "g" (author resources) suboption "d" (other lessons) from the main index in AIDS. This list includes lesson alarm, among others. The author resources section of AIDS is perhaps the most complete listing of everything you might want to know that there is, at any price. You can literally spend days recursing into the depths of the AIDS system from that innocent option. ---------- note 82 defines 02/10/76 08.11 daleske ames Why is it that the defines of the following form are not allowed? I use vertical segments quite a lot, and to have the defines take up to two blocks of code seems a little excessive! Parsing takes more time when the parser needs to look for various options, but the changes should be no more slow or costly than the present -change- command.... define test s=segment,v=vertical s,v,d=n1,1,3 segment,b=n2,2 ¬, segment,c=n3,2 * segment,b=n2,2; segment,c=n3,2 John ---------- response 1 02/10/76 08.18 berger mfl readability? ---------- response 2 02/10/76 08.29 t little research As I recall reading the AIDS description of the "change" command I think it said to be used to change TUTOR commands to their FOREIGN languauge equivalent. Now I would hardly consider having s=segment do anything but confuse the poor guy who has to follow the code that was written using this incredibily cyrptic method of shortening your defines. If the lesson is SO big in the first place to have 2-3 blocks of defines then maybe you should consider the "use" command? Anyway, I definately say that implementing suggestion that would be taking one BIG step backward in trying to make TUTOR code more readable! Todd ---------- response 3 02/10/76 09.10 shirer s As to the second part...more than one segment command on one line...this has been asked (and answered before). It is technically possible, but that was not the way it was originally written, and no one has wanted to take the time to re-write it since. (Re: Finagles First Law of Computer Programming...when it works, leave it alone!?) ---------- response 4 02/10/76 10.08 judy pso -change- is for COMMANDS Ordinarily, -change- is used to modify the command names to a foreign language. However, if you want to play, you can -change- "next" ¬D "back" and "calc" ¬D "join" and make a REAL mess! ¬[¬[ but PLEASE, pretty PLEASE, don't ask me to sort it out¬]¬] ---------- response 5 02/10/76 12.36 fisher conn I would think that if you made segment and vertical so that you can use _either_ define segment,vertical,seg=nc1,1,20,s $or$ define seg,vert,seg=nc1,1,20,s then it would still be very readable, and it would cut down on the coding that has to be used to use vertical segments. It seems a waste looking down 15 lines of code where I see segment, vertical on each of them.... fishswine ---------- response 6 02/10/76 14.06 guerra uimc Yes...to think you can put "s" instead of "signed" but can't put "v" instead of vertical, when I seldom, if ever, use "signed" segments but frequently have blocks and blocks of vertical segment definitions. ---------- response 7 02/10/76 23.58 daleske ames The other method that I left out was the seg,vert. It saves two-four words per line of define depending on the option left out. Just having two segments per line saves one word per line. The readability is not impared. It would be less wasteful of system resources. The editor would go faster. I AM VERY SHORT on disk space! Perhaps you arent, but many people are and where every word counts... John ---------- note 87 Seminar 02/10/76 08.56 golden s Reminder: PLATO SEMINAR Wednesday, February 11, Room 198 CSL, 3:00 pm Dr. George Grimes and Ms. Elsbeth Holt Title: Extending Human Capabilities in Teaching Veterinary Public Health Using PLATO ---------- note 97 cirkit 02/10/76 10.23 saltan uicc Please answer 191!!!!!!!!!!! of 2/4/76 ---------- response 1 02/10/76 10.38 koning csstaff I remeber seeing a reply... It said that the people on Plato are not omniscient and that no one has ever heard of this, but that a person who might know is doug brown/p. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 15.41 midden p good answer! ---------- note 98 obsolete 02/10/76 10.27 berger mfl As long as restart (var),(var) is still a valid form, can the "obsolete" message be removed? ---------- response 1 02/10/76 15.27 andersen s Yes - will be fixed soon. ---------- note 102 in ecs? 02/10/76 10.41 mailman ustaf During a time of great ecs shortage this morning, one of my students who was using lesson 'wits' (editor for BASIC) tried to run his program and got a message saying that there was not enough ecs. Yet at that same time, another student was running his program, which means that theoretically the interpretor lesson, schwab, was already in ecs and should not have had to have been condensed. Am I missing something? How can this be? ---------- response 1 02/10/76 10.55 golden s I think that lesson uses storage. If so, each student costs more ECS. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 11.35 white p Bill, each student already has storage, and moving between lessons already at the site shouldn't cost anything. 1) the lesson uses -lessin- to see if the lesson is already charged to the site, if so the jumpout is done. 2) if not already charged to the site, (mallot-muse) is checked to see if there is room for the known size of the compiler. if so, the jumpout is done. 3) otherwise a message is given saying there is not enough room. Q: were both students at the same logical site? If so, then I don't know what was wrong. ---------- response 3 02/10/76 19.25 mailman ustaf Both students were in cerl 165B at the time. ---------- response 4 02/12/76 11.36 mcneil a uicc I have noticed that when someone is waiting to condense his ecs charge drops to 0. During this short period the mallot can fall and though you might have checked for enough room before jumpout there may not be enough when the condensor gets around to you. AL9000 ---------- note 107 sys router 02/10/76 11.28 hubel ed Presently, an instructor who is using the system router has no way of knowing: 1) how much time a student spent in each lesson or 2) what portion the student did before he chose another. The only information he presently gets is an * if the lesson is complete, and a score which is restricted to lie between -1 and 100. [This teacher does not have access to the data file]. [Please refrain from commenting on how these 2 quantities could be misunderstood by others--I am aware of that.] As a solution to this, could the number of bits available for lscore in the rvars be increased in the future to allow authors to encode more information in them? I have received numerous requests for this type of information from chemistry teachers who report that it is very common for a student to spend an hour in a lesson and never receive any credit at all since he didn't finish it. ---------- response 1 02/10/76 12.21 stan smith chem The U of I chemistry lessons are set up to give "credit" for having learned the material well enough to complete the lesson, not for just trying but not finishing the program. More extensive data, taken from data files, actually indicates little correlation between time in a lesson and other measures of performance such as errors or hour exam grades. Is the preposal to include time in a lesson a solution to some other problem such as loosing restarts in a lesson upon going into another program such as a review lesson? Students often almost finish a lesson, go into another one, come back and find that PLATO doesn't "remember" the earlier but uncompleted work, which doesn't please them. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 12.40 john r reading Enough people have requested time-in-lesson at one time or another that the need for it should be beyond question in a system and language that try not to dictate pedagogy. ---------- response 3 02/10/76 13.21 stan smith chem Time in a lesson is interesting, but the problem for which this is the solution in this case is in large part loss of -restart- upon going to another lesson. A problem not solved by time in a lesson. It would help greatly if restart information on several lessons could be kept by the system. ---------- response 4 02/10/76 14.06 hubel ed There appears to be at least 4 reasons for wanting time, fraction-of-lesson completed or similar information: 1) Students have elected to quit one lesson and begin another which resulted in the loss of the restart, and also their ability to eventually achieve the * without re-doing portions again. 2) Students did not have enough time during the scheduled session to finish that lesson and had to go on to a new lesson next time due to insufficient terminal time to catch up, without leaving a report of what they did in that lesson. 3) Teacher promised extra credit for spending a certain amount of time or completing a certain portion of a lesson. 4) Teacher just wants to know the current status of his class at certain times during the semester. The system router is a real time-saver, however it should have just a little more flexibility in lesson status. ---------- response 5 02/10/76 16.52 gilpin peer Without intervening in the exchanges between stan smith/chem and hubel/ed, I want to concur in the strongest possible way with the comment made by john r/reading. Time-in-lesson is a fundamental parameter which has economic importance as well as theoretical significance. We need to understand the variables that control it. To encourage attention to it, surely a router provided by the system should report it. ---------- response 6 02/10/76 17.51 j wilson unidel Saving the -restart- info for several lessons would be nice. Also very useful would be the construct (discussed before) of a lesson data area, which could be used to function similarly and/or could be used to pass parameters into the lesson. Can there be room anywhere for all of these things, or must some choices be made? ---------- response 7 02/10/76 19.31 david hebrew At least one course that I know of (whose name I shan't mention out of a decorous sense of humility, besides which Roberta would kill me if I squealed) uses "score" to pass information as follows: The first digit of "score" gives the total score on the first part of the lesson, and the second digit gives the total score on the second part of the lesson. I should imagine that one might subvert "score" more cleverly to pass more information back and forth. I should also imagine that systems would prefer some form of parameter-passing to this sort of brouhaha. ---------- response 8 02/10/76 19.42 chabay s We are worrying about this problem. Among the things we're considering is keeping restart status for more than just the last lesson a student worked (perhaps a stack of 10 lessons), and possibly allowing more status to be passed between the router and lessons. It isn't an easy problem, though. One of the reasons the system router is economical is that it doesn't use lots of storage or do disk accesses. And, unfortunately, even system lessons can get only 60 bits per word, and use 50 router variables. So it isn't easy to keep lots of information without losing some of the advantages the system router now has. This doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done - having more restart status would help a lot of people, and time in a lesson is certainly a reasonable thing to want to know. (cont) ---------- response 9 02/10/76 19.44 chabay s There may be other ways to save and present the same information (for example, how about a system-level "gradebook" into which an instructor could also enter exam scores, etc.) Anyhow, we are thinking about these problems (and this is a good time to suggest things you feel are necessary in the system router.) ---------- response 10 02/11/76 10.33 bailey cerlcc Speaking for the Community College math group, a record of time spent in lessons by each student would be a valuable addition to the system router. In a previous discussion of this issue, a number of reasons were given for this position relating to the problems of implementing and monitoring Plato use in a complex and varied situation. Also, for virtually every math instructor we have worked with, time has been one of their major considerations in planing their use of Plato. ---------- response 11 02/11/76 11.55 fay o Re: John D. Eisenberg's (sp?) suggestion about passing arguments between router and tutor lesson--- There is a basic philosophical question which has not been resolved (among systems staff and also users) about whether or not lessons _should_ become so intricately tied to the values of various parameters passed to and from the system router. The issue boils down to modularity of lessons vs. entire curricula. While you may pefectly legally pass arguments via the router vars (rvars may be read via the readr commands, but not written) the current systems posi- tion seems to be favoring less router dependence in individ- ual lesson design. This is reportedly so that users may make use of "published/finished" lessons on a more modular basis, picking and choosing in order to design curricula. (A stack of restart info and time-in-lesson are good ideas!) ---------- note 113 Apology 02/10/76 12.36 ci cerl please accept my apology for suggestion on memory allocation. I thought it would alleviate the busier times and was not meant to criticize or in any way question the importance and benefits of PLATO in our operation. ---------- response 1 02/10/76 17.38 b sherwood s Don't feel too bad. We too are unhappy that we cannot provide better service. The fundamental problem is that we do not have enough memory per terminal to make it possible for everyone to do different things simultaneously. We see this increasingly as the major bottleneck in the system and continue to work toward some way around the problem. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 23.02 carter comm If the 16k RAM comes through this year at $10, as some optimist's claim, that might be a solution. Certainly, the next step. 64k on a chip will solve the problem if yields are high enough and testing problems overcome. ---------- response 3 02/11/76 11.14 hody med it is important when looking at problems such as the ones of keeping times and restarts (see previous note sequence) to remember that somebday very soon the technology will be improved to the point where one can do things more lavishly than presently-- * it then follows that suggestions which may not be implementable now should be carefully recorded and assembled into a data base of desirable features for CBE systems of the future. * many of those currently working on the technological problems (mainly out of the illinois system) haven't the vagest notion of what the educators want and need- i think that publications in this area are needed! ---------- note 120 gnotechng 02/10/76 13.23 berger mfl I know that this has been mentioned before, but I don't recall seeing an answer... Why can't a jumpout be made directly to a group notes file, The check for file type is already made somewhere, else one wouldn't get the "not a TUTOR lesson" message. If it could be done this way, it would allow us to preserve -n1-, and therefore allow us to use the notefile for students. One of the original "selling" points is that it doesn't affect student variables, and in times of short ECS, it would be nice to guarantee that a student could always reach a notefile. I wouldn't have to wait for the new student notefile system if this one change were made. Incidentally, if this change were made, the system router could use the new group notes too! ---------- response 1 02/10/76 13.41 b sherwood s Good suggestion -- we will consider it. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 14.21 berger mfl Thank you! ---------- note 131 Card 02/10/76 16.02 karsh mflu Does anyone know where a good set of card chars is? ---------- response 1 02/10/76 16.09 michael english I believe dimitrief/english has a set designed by David Dawson that look rather nice. ---------- note 133 344TIP 02/10/76 16.45 matthews css just out of curiosity what happens when a lesson has all of its blocks partialed out(??) the reason that i ask is i happened to executed a lesson of a friend and all the blocks were partialed out(I didn't know this at the time) and i got a the usual jumpout back to the author mode page but there was also a reading of 344 TIPS(in other words where did the TIPS come from if every thing was partialed out) M≤≤L≤≤M ---------- response 1 02/10/76 16.52 benveniste css I believe this is caused by the accounting the system must do when one enters and exits a lesson. So even if there is no condensed code, some operations must be performed. Someone please correct me if I am wrong... Mike Benveniste ---------- response 2 02/10/76 19.54 fay o That is more or less correct. The TIPS figure you usually see upon leaving a lesson via STOP1 is an _average_ figure over the entire time you were in the lesson. When you are "in a lesson" for just a couple of msec this average is very high, as noted, and should not be regarded as a very meaningful figure. ---------- note 145 cdc2-cerlo 02/10/76 20.44 sheehan cdcc Last Tuesday (2/3/76) a titanic battle was waged between the forces of CERL's checkers program (marshalled by R.Blomme) ¬+ those of the CDC program (prepared by this author). The out- come was two clearcut victories for the CDC program (6-0 in 31 moves and 3-0 in 37). This despite always awarding the first move to CERL and repeated attempts by the CDC program to make things more interesting by gratuitously sacrificing its material. Making the outcome even more unusual is the fact that this author knows so little about the game that only after he had written the program did he learn that a checker's board is not set up like a chess board. In fact, the current games were only possible because a checkers board with numbers, colors and squares all backwards turns out to be a mirror image of the regulation board employed by the CERL program. jung of cbe ---------- response 1 02/10/76 20.47 sheehan cdcc And while the previous note was not intended solely as a call to arms...one more update of the CDC program is contem- plated in lieu of immediate delivery of a CERL music box. ---------- response 2 02/10/76 21.27 blomme s It's good to hear that someone has something better than the thing I wrote in a couple weeks back in 1971--I was happy just to get it to detect legal moves...congrats! ---------- response 3 02/11/76 10.24 gilpin peer Sheehan: Be glad that Mr. Blomme seems uninclined to be dis- tracted by your "call to arms", for if his attention _were_ directed to the contest in a serious way, you and your program would soon feel like you had been put thru a DisposAll...you would soon find it necessary to add to your program a feature that kicks over the board after the first few moves... ---------- response 4 02/11/76 11.17 hody med i am delighted to see that the systems staff and cdc are profitably occupied by momentous issues of national importance. * put more charitably: shouldn't all this be in "pad"? ---------- response 5 02/11/76 12.23 obrien uicc Not any more. ---------- note 147 opsnotes! 02/10/76 20.59 fay o Announcing: all new and exciting "opsnotes" for those of you who have burning communique¬es for the operators. We appreciate any and all comments from PLATO users, whether they be official requests for service or suggestions. "opsnotes" will also be useful for those (unlikely) times when you cannot find an operator signed on the system. And remember, to see when your favorite op is scheduled, check "opcom". ---------- note 149 data1 time 02/10/76 21.50 dave fuller uimc Uh, Nitpick of the year award, but... If you press "t" from the data1 page to see what time it is, the time is written on the bottom part of the screen, overwriting some things that are already there. Sigh... ---------- note 154 helpnotes 02/11/76 03.27 rowlen mflu Is there still a " help notes " file someplace? In case this has been discontinued, I found had found it to be very helpful and would like and would like to see its re-implementation. ---------- response 1 02/11/76 04.35 halvorsen pcp You just wrote in it! "Help notes" and "General notes" have been combined into "Public notes". ---------- response 2 02/11/76 09.33 woolley p A copy of the last Help Notes file is available for viewing in group notes file "helpnotes", but no new notes can be added. ---------- response 3 02/11/76 11.21 hody med i don't understand that decision-- other than as it relates to someone's desire to avoid writing a clear policy statement about the use of a "help" notefile and occasional polite reminders to those who haven't recalled the instructions. * if it includes all minor requests for information, public notes will be almost impossible to read for anyone with anything else to do. was that the intent? * ---------- response 4 02/11/76 13.17 golden s It was done to eliminate the many notes which discussed the appropriateness of other notes. ---------- response 5 02/11/76 22.31 kent unl ...and the groupnotes "psonotes" are also always available. ---------- note 156 plato v ? 02/11/76 08.15 ferry medneo just heard through the PLATO grapevine about PLATO V... can someone enlighten me on the subject ?? ---------- response 1 02/11/76 10.01 corey m This is an developmental plato terminal that is microprocessor controlled, using a parallel write plasma panel and single logic board design. For more information, see lesson "Projects" . Jeff Corey ---------- response 2 02/11/76 10.34 golden s Yes and no! The new terminal has been called a PLATO V terminal, but that name may not stick. Whether it does or not, terminals of that kind will be used on PLATO IV systems PLATO V will be the name of the next PLATO system we design. Its capabilities and architecture are as yet uncertain. One goal is a modular design which will permit building systems capable of runing a few hundred terminals per module up to perhaps 10 or 12 thousand terminals. That is, by adding a procesor and more memory, a system's capacity would grow by 300-500 terminals. ---------- note 167 -backout- 02/11/76 11.18 broadus css Is there any way to tell if someone was deleted from a lesson by stop1 being pressed by the ecs checker? How about putting in another value for backout! This would also apply to being backed out by site, or course directors! Bob Broadus ---------- note 170 varian! 02/11/76 11.38 kawell o The VARIAN Printer is now working again! Thanks go to Gene Kelley of the research group who completely rebuilt the printer. Al Harkrader and I fixed a few problems with the software. If you find any that we missed, send either of us a note. Len PS In case you may have forgotten, you can request Varian prints in lesson "prints". ---------- response 1 02/11/76 12.01 kawell o If you never heard of a Varian printout, check in AIDS under "varian prints". ---------- response 2 02/11/76 13.03 fay o Also, expect a rather lengthy turnaround just to be safe. There may well be a backlog of frustrated varian-requestors out there. That is, of course, if it continues to function! ---------- response 3 02/11/76 21.44 broadus css thanks all! ---------- note 174 packv? 02/11/76 12.55 michael matha A few months back, while speaking with a systems programmer, I learned of the soon-to-be-released command "packc". It has now been released, and is _fine_, but does not have all the features that I was under the impression it would. The feature I was interested in was the "embed" feature for variables, in other words, the ability to pack the alpha of a variable into a string, using "show,showo,showt" and "showz", and thus preventing (minor) complexities involving the use of itoa and move. For example, the code: calc v1‎¬p packc type,string,count,¬0s,v1¬1,¬0t,v1,3.3¬1 would produce the results (depending on "type"): string='3.14159', or string=' 3.141'. I assumed a side effect would be release of "vtoa". Are these features under consideration, soon-to-be-released, or ridiculous? How about "packv"¬+"vtoa"? Michael ---------- response 1 02/11/76 13.21 tenczar s a pack type command with the ability to have embedded store commands is on the list of software jobs...however, I can't give any date for its birth at this time. ---------- note 175 keys¬= 02/11/76 12.56 putch arizona Is there any possibility of keys¬= type of tag for the pause command? That way if you want to allow all keys except one to break through you can, without having a special -group- command to do it. ---------- response 1 02/11/76 14.29 chabay chem It's simple to do with the existing structure: 1paus pause keys=all keytype (n1),somekey branch (n1),x,1paus ---------- response 2 02/11/76 14.46 putch arizona I see how that could work if you simply wanted to _block_ a particular key; however, I want the key to remain active so that pressing it will perform its normal function. Is there presently anyway of doing this, and if not, could it be implemented? ---------- response 3 02/11/76 15.06 michael english What do you mean by "perform its usual function"? The "keys=all" structure permits enabled function keys to behave normally. In the preceding example, if HELP had been enabled, pressing the key would have transferred control to the specified unit, not broken through the pause. ---------- response 4 02/11/76 15.54 putch arizona Yes, but help is a branching key. It is the erase key that I'm trying to get to work before a -pause-. ---------- response 5 02/11/76 17.09 michael english Erase has no function at a pause, only at an arrow. I don't quite see how it could since a pause is unrelated to screen display, whereas an arrow implies screen activity. ---------- response 6 02/11/76 18.16 putch arizona Perhaps an explanation is in order. I have several arrows separated by -pause- commands that occur just before the -endarrow-. In testing it, I have found it convenient to be able to press erase after a correct response and restart the judging if it is required. However, the introduction of the pause command prevents me from doing so. Using the routine described by chabay/chem, I succeed only in preventing the erase key from ending the pause, not in restoring its function( and to anticipate an inevitable suggestion, placing the arrows in separate units, at least during the testing, causes all sorts of difficulties.) ---------- response 7 02/11/76 19.11 stewart arizona Why not just put the pause after the endarrow instead of before it. ---------- response 8 02/11/76 19.26 midden p Question: (for further explaination of what you want?) Does the following do what you want, only a little awkward: arrow 1010 ok pause keys=all branch key-erase,1end,x,1end press erase noword judge noquit 1end endarrow write through Does this do what you want? (not that I'll admit it is nice, or for that matter ... I won't even admit I wrote that.) Marshall Midden ---------- response 9 02/11/76 20.52 chabay chem Yes, why not just put the -pause- after the -endarrow-? ---------- response 10 02/12/76 16.04 putch arizona First of all, it does no good to put the pause after the endarrow because it leaves no way to reenter the judging. Second, I tried several forms of midden/p's suggestion but I still didn't get quite what I was after. Now I'm trying to find out if there is a nonexecutable judging command(i.e. a command which will end regular processing after another judging command, yet not be executed in a judging state) so that I can allow the "ok" to be printed before the pause occurs without putting in an actual judging command which must, in some way I can't figure out either, be neutralized when it is encountered in the judging state. ---------- note 179 ra slides 02/11/76 13.39 rl grossel mtc The Air Force Human Resources Lab at Lowry AFB, Co, near Denver, has developed an interface device that allows PLATO to control a Kodak RA-960 random access slide projector. Device plugs into Plato slide jack ¬+ uses "slide" commands (commands above 81 "wrap around" since the tray holds only 81 slides). Projection can be to side of terminal. With re-arrangement of fans, or folding optical path, can project on rear of p. panel. Several working models have operated very reliably for almost 2 years. A local company is fabricating additional copies for us; they have agreed to make copies per your request if there is enough interest. You must provide RA960(about$635); interface should cost from $225-$300, depending on quantity. For questions on device, leave me a p-note. For questions about procurement, contact company directly (cont'd)... ---------- note 180 ra slides+ 02/11/76 13.41 rl grossel mtc ra slides, cont'd: For procurement of interface device contact: Vertronic, Inc Attn: Paul Dougherty P.O. Box 907 Evergreen, Co 80439 Phone: (303)-674-7779 ---------- note 181 calculator 02/11/76 13.58 nudelman css There is now a touch panel calculator simulation in lesson prcalc. Send all comments / suggestions / bugs to nudelman / css. * Mark Nudelman * ---------- note 186 gnote 02/11/76 16.26 david cerlcc It would be nice if there were a list of groupnotes files of somewhat general interest, i.e. major curriculum development projects. Perhaps when creating a groupnotes file, one could specify whether or not this file is to be included in the list, accessible from the groupnotes options page. ---------- response 1 02/11/76 17.10 michael english Please see ¬$0 of file "notesnotes" as to why this would presumably be too difficult. ---------- response 2 02/11/76 17.41 blomme s There is some question here of appropriateness (and not of difficulty). No listing of lesson names is provided by the system. And when there IS effectively such a listing provided by a lesson catalog, the only lessons listed will be ones which the system can more or less "guarantee" as to their existence and performance. Whether some sort of user initiated flag setting similar to the "on-system" list of users is appropriate here is the issue. ---------- response 3 02/11/76 23.11 david cerlcc Since the user actually executes "notes" it would seem that the reliability of the gnotes code is already guaranteed by the system. And if the listing of gnotes files was in "notes" itself, anytime someone tried to enter a gnotes file which did not exist, that gnote file name could be dynamically deleted on detection of the appropriate error code, no? ---------- response 4 02/12/76 08.35 mont csa I often see notes referring to notefiles discussing some project, and if I want to read them, but can't do so immediately, I never seem to remember the reference. It would be nice to have a list of such discussions, somewhere. Richard Montanelli ---------- note 187 257 02/11/76 16.55 john poor mathg What happend to all the terminals in cerl 257? About half of them are gone now..... ---------- response 1 02/11/76 17.12 tebby pso Room 257 of CERL is only a room for testing terminals which are on their way to more permanent locations. Could be that the number of terminals in that room some day would be down to zero. Kind of sad for "official" PLATO authors, isn't it? I hope we can offer a solution when the "zero" situation arrives. ---------- response 2 02/11/76 17.15 john poor mathg Thanks..... ---------- note 191 jobforprof 02/11/76 17.13 wood medsiuc The School of Engineering and Technology at SIU-C is looking for a professor in Electrical Engrineering. A Ph. D. is required. Interested persons should send inquiries to: Dr. J. G. Smith Dept. of Electrical Sciences and Systems Engineering School of Engineering and Technology Southern Illinois University Carbondale, Illinois 62901 ---------- note 200 stop1check 02/11/76 22.31 fisher conn There is something wrong with the checker to see if there is anyone in your lesson, I believe... Several times in the past week, I have looked at who was in my lesson, then pressed lab to enter in student mode, and got an execution error.... It looks to me like something is not initialized that is when entering the lesson via stop1 or data.... although no other lesson that I have tried gives an execution error..... futher info on request. fishswine ---------- note 202 erase 02/11/76 23.05 anderer ee I am running a terminal tonight that is doing nothing but massive number crunching. Before it starts a simple doto loop, it writes a message to the effect that terminal is in use. Yet, after about 5 minutes, the screen goes blank. It hasnt finished the work, and there is NO code to do an erasure like this. Is this a systems generated function, or bug? dg ---------- response 1 02/11/76 23.42 midden p Yes, there is something wrong again.... The terminals automatically blank after so long (in your case five minutes). There is normally software around that will write a mode rewrite space at 3264 every minute or so. Unfortunately something is wrong. Will hopefully be fixed soon. M.Midden ---------- response 2 02/11/76 23.47 anderer ee Thanx for the answer. dg ---------- response 3 02/12/76 08.46 berger mfl If the loop is too tight, isn't it conceivable that the special write that the system does won't get through? ---------- response 4 02/12/76 09.53 rader s No, the loop being too tight will not interfere with that process--there is no output. ---------- response 5 02/12/76 09.55 guerra uimc Only if the loop is sending output to the screen, in which case there wouldn't be the lack of screen activity that causes the problem in the first place. ---------- note 207 CM 02/12/76 02.36 alan reading Should the upper limit for common variables (1500) be a systems reserved word? ---------- response 1 02/12/76 02.53 galcher uimc No, but the (new) limit for temporary common variables (8050 - see NEW SYSTEMS FEATURE ¬$ 120) is noted in AIDS. Or are you refering to the maximum number of variables (common or storage) which can be loaded into CM at one shot? ---------- response 2 02/12/76 04.11 halvorsen pcp Huh? "alan" is just asking if the constant 1500 which is the maximum limit on CM no-type words should be a system reserved word. I think its an excellent idea! This would be a good step towards transportability between systems. ---------- note 210 reminder.. 02/12/76 08.16 parker arizona To one and all: The lesson space for the notesfile in lesson 'proj211' will expire early next week. Comments are still being accepted. So get those remaining comments in fast. Thanks. ---------- note 211 funding 02/12/76 08.20 mailman ustaf Is any comment, projection, guess available about the likelihood of continued NSF funding for PLATO, or is this yet too shaky an isssue to be discussed publicly? All we have to go on is rumors... ---------- response 1 02/12/76 08.36 avner s The current NSF funding for PLATO (and for the TICCIT project) was for a specific purpose (the evaluation of operating CAI systems). As is normal in such circumstances, such funding terminates when the project is completed. PLATO, at least, has funding from many sources so it is not clear why the normal end of funding from a particular source should be of major concern (unless you happen to have been employed solely for that project). This is not to say that the NSF support was not welcome and was not beneficial to the interests of the educational community. (This is a private comment and does not represent an official CERL view--which can be offered only by Don Bitzer) Al Avner ---------- response 2 02/12/76 19.21 carter comm I sincerely hope that CERL does not incur a large funding cut. Most of the deadwood in the organization is closer to the top than the bottom, and is rather small. Hence a cutback could imply that many of those that make significant contributions, such as the junior system programming staff, could be unfairly hurt and further system development impaired. ---------- note 218 helpnotes 02/12/76 10.26 woolley p If there are no violent objections, 'helpnotes' will be destroyed this weekend. ---------- note 219 commonshow 02/12/76 11.13 b sherwood s It has been pointed out that both system displayers of common variables show ***** for large v-variables, making it impossible to see what is in those variables. Is there any objection to changing the -showt- to a -show- (which uses scientific notation if necessary)? ---------- response 1 02/12/76 15.37 marquart ee This would be VERY useful. I use very _small_ numbers and the common editor shows 0.000 or such instead of any significant figures. The only way to tell if there is anything in it is to look at the octal and that is hardly informative about the actual value except when converted (not easily done in the editor). The ability to see at least 3 or 4 significant figures would be a great boon. An even bigger one would be an option to see _n_ digits ¬[ as in ¬0s,variable,¬ _n_¬ ¬1 ¬j. Dave Marquart ---------- note 221 ibm‎plato 02/12/76 12.42 maggs law Does anyone have experience in transfering a dataset created by a PLATO program to a tape that could be read by an IBM computer? If so, what does it involve? ---------- response 1 02/12/76 13.21 maggs law Thanks to those who have sent me pnotes on this. ---------- note 222 createfile 02/12/76 12.58 alan reading Certain things would be much cleaner if a regular TUTOR lesson could create and destroy files (datasets). Perhaps this implies that an account director would create a "privaledged" lesson. Such lessons might also be allowed to contain powerful course records editting command. ---------- response 1 02/12/76 17.29 tenczar s I am afraid that this is probably on the "PLATO V" list of software jobs...sorry ---------- note 223 reserv les 02/12/76 13.07 siegel peer Would it be possible for the reserved lessons which are listed for a site to always be in ECS without having to enter them in the list every time the system comes up? * This would be especially useful for our router and other utility lessons that we frequently use. ---------- response 1 02/12/76 13.59 berger mfl Even more useful (I think) would be the ability to "unreserve" a lesson without deleting the entire list. ---------- response 2 02/12/76 17.02 b sherwood s These should be done. Perhaps we can find someone to do it. We do understand that these changes would be quite helpful. ---------- note 226 logsite 0 02/12/76 13.45 golden s Very few of the users on logical site 0 (network) have said they wish to be on a site without author deletion. Too few, in fact, to make a new site. So, unless I hear from more people who want to do away with author deletion, I will leave site 0 as it is. ---------- note 228 collect 02/12/76 15.34 davis uicem Question about the -collect- command: Are the inputs stored in right-justified format? dan davis ---------- response 1 02/12/76 15.37 dave fuller uimc The inputs are stored as integers, which are 48-bit binary numbers. Yes, that is right justified. May I recite a quote from the fellow that started me down the path of programming many years ago: "If you don't know what it does, try it" ---------- response 2 02/12/76 17.13 davis uicem And to quote another fellow: "Plan ahead." (My "external device" isn't completed yet.) davis ---------- response 3 02/12/76 22.25 dave fuller uimc Note that the collect command also works with the keyset... ---------- response 4 02/13/76 10.47 davis uicem Thanks. Didn't know that. ---------- note 232 net access 02/12/76 16.17 biscuit tcourse Hello all... Does anyone know anything about the ARPA net interface with Plato? This interface was going to be set up at ILL-CAC as part of the project to place Plato terminals on the net, and was intended to enable them to communicate with Plato via ILL-CAC as well as with all the other hosts... The interface doesn't appear to be up, though. Its socket ¬$'s on ILL-CAC were given as 164400 and 164401 (octal) in the project documentation, but the project has been discontinued since then. Does anyone know whether the interface is now, or has ever been in working condition? Thanks for any help, Joseph H. Berkovitz ---------- response 1 02/12/76 17.33 tenczar s you might try talking to Jody Kravitz of CAC for current information on the matter... 333-1546 ---------- response 2 02/12/76 21.26 stone research jody is also accessable via kravitz of cerl. i don't think he signs on every day, but probably no worse than once a week. maureen ---------- response 3 02/13/76 08.20 berger mfl Except that he is on vacation beginning this weekend, I think. Try him in two weeks or so! ---------- note 233 income 02/12/76 16.48 stone pfw Any lessons on income taxes and such? Reply in personal note please. Scott Stone ---------- note 239 term-talk- 02/12/76 20.39 novak com Could I please get a satisfactory reply to old help notes number 473? The crux of the matter is, that if someone pages you, and then quits, you get the end of talk message. Then, if someone else pages you, their name replaces the previous name, but the end of talk message stays, so you could have a page coming in, and not know it.. you'd just think to cal the other person later, instead of inadverdently leaving him hanging on. How about an erase for the space where the -end of talk- appears, or just a full-line erase???? Thanks, Chris ---------- note 240 fuzz 02/12/76 20.53 koning csstaff I read this somewhere in Aids but can't find it any more: what is the tolerance used by the system in comparing two numbers for equality, and what is the smallest number that is not equal to 0? ---------- response 1 02/12/76 23.15 b sherwood s In aids, ask for "=", which will then tell you to press LAB for rounding details. ---------- response 2 02/12/76 23.18 judy pso ask for "=" and then press LAB ---------- response 3 02/12/76 23.59 michael english Talk about husbands and wives thinking alike..... ---------- response 4 02/13/76 01.01 koning csstaff Thanks.... ---------- note 247 talkreturn 02/13/76 00.33 blomme s On the latest version of the system the TERM key processing has been changed so that the return after a system term is requested (talk, grid, etc.) or any term is not found does not wipe out the typing at an arrow but restores things so typing can continue. If there are any problems with the new handling, please let us know. Thanks (if any) should go to Todd Little who did much of the work involved here. ---------- response 1 02/13/76 01.00 koning csstaff How about deleting the '(if any)'? ---------- response 2 02/13/76 01.01 rick mfl It's BEAUTIFUL!!! Thanks! ---------- response 3 02/13/76 01.43 daleske ames I should think a large hand (rattle of keys?) should be giving to those involved. When the system went down last night at 04:00 (or so?) and -term- did not work, this means that you were working on this problem! That is dedication... Twin thanks John ("if any" geeezzz) ---------- response 4 02/13/76 15.13 curly iu I'm grateful. ---------- note 252 Gnoteflag 02/13/76 02.27 daleske ames A-would-be-nice-but-it-seems-like-it-would-be-some-time-dept The Pnotes flag that is set whenever a pnote has been sent to an author is a fast and simple reminder to read the Pnotes. Perhaps a redefintion of that flag or an additional "Variable-Gnotes Flag" would be posible that could be set to the Gnote of the user's choice, signalling in the same manner as the present Pnotes flag. It would be set whenever a note/response was written in that file. John ---------- response 1 02/13/76 10.31 woolley p Urk... not likely. ---------- response 2 02/13/76 15.18 railing iu Aww...gee...why not??? it sounds like a great idea to me. Would it really be that hard??? Malkin ---------- response 3 02/13/76 18.30 tricorn hebrew You mean anytime anyone writes a note in any of the GNOTES or PUBLIC notes, all the system would have to do is check it's list of the people who want to be notified of that fact and nudge their flag?? Is that all? Sure doesn't seem difficult, except for: where is this list kept?...what will all the disk activity (to change the people's flag in their records) do to system performance?...Actually, if the system kept track of all the Gnote files, and everytime one was changed, it noted the time, and then kept track of the last time I had looked at the notes I had selected, it could decide each time I went to the Author Mode page whether I should be notified...but again, where does this list of _all_ gnote file access dates get kept? Δ ---------- response 4 02/13/76 18.46 fritz ames It's a very simple matter, really... All you need to do is read the records of EVERY SIGNLE SIGNON, see if he wants to be notified, and if so, notify him. Easy, no? (PS: In case you're wondering, this is a very sarcastic note...) ---------- response 5 02/14/76 19.44 daleske ames And even sarcastically back, the access list already at- tached to the gnotes file could contain that information. The course records would be the storage place of the flag. The course records disk access is already done on entry. The setting of the flag is tested by checking the already loaded access list.... Degrading the system's performance! BAH! (I agree that checking every signon would be degrading) John ---------- note 253 platoiv 02/13/76 04.35 kent unl I just discovered lesson "platoiv" and it seems to be "just what the pso's ordered" to get people like me to quit asking them overly involved questions about how PLATO works at the systems level--or at least it will be when it is finished (in the near future, I hope?). I would also like to see more lessons of this sort made available--covering _every_ aspect of PLATO--from the hardware architecture through the assembler and the TUTOR interpretor and on into the PLATO operating system and even to a breakdown of how _each_ TUTOR command is implement- ed. Maybe THEN I'll understand this "premature 'Press NEXT to begin'" which happens with every PLATO crash and which nobody seems to be able to explain! ---------- response 1 02/13/76 16.49 kent unl Since I wrote this note, I've been informed through a pnote that this lesson is "inaccurate" and "unsanctioned by the system", Well, if so, what are the prospects of getting a set of lessons which are the "real thing"? One thing I've learned in my graduate work in com- puter science is that the better one understands the partic- ular system he or she is working with. the better one is capable of using it to its greatest advantage. So my question "to whom it may concern" is, "Is there any such set of lessons "in the works"? ---------- response 2 02/14/76 13.29 jmk pso Such lessons are in the works. ---------- response 3 02/15/76 15.05 hody med plato iv isn't that bad until the lessons in the works are worked. ---------- note 255 journal 02/13/76 08.32 mike b cornell *** Call For Articles *** Last May, several of us here at Cornell University announced our intentions to start an on-line journal, which would solicit articles from the PLATO community. Unlike previous experiments in on-line "publication", we proposed a monthly journal developed along the lines of the _Atlantic_ _Monthly_ and _Scientific_ _American_. Naturally, such a journal would have to maintain strict editorial standards. Submitted articles would be reviewed by the Editorial Board for suitability for publication. We are exploring means of obtaining copyrights on each issue of the journal. (Continued in First Response) ---------- response 1 02/13/76 08.40 mike b cornell *** Call for Articles *** After an extensive software development stage, we are ready to begin accepting proposals for articles to appear in our maiden issue. The tentative publication date is 8 March 1976. Persons wishing to submit prosopals should first execute lesson "journal" to read about our submission and publication procedures. Those wishing to submit arti- cles should send me a pnote by 20 February. Please include some biographical information, and your real name. Articles in the journal will be published under real names, not PLATO psuedonyms. We are looking forward to receiving your responses. (Please do not clutter up Public Notes.) Michael Besosa Russell Medford Kenneth Rush ---------- response 2 02/13/76 10.09 judy pso I hope you will include signons as well as "real names". ---------- response 3 02/13/76 13.06 russ cornell We feel that only in the case where the author specifically requests that his sign-on be included in his identification, will we note the author's sign-on for the article. Many of our articles will be coming from outside the PLATO system and we feel that each author must be responsible for his work, and therefore must be identified with his work. Russell Medford, Editorial Board ---------- note 257 9600 baud 02/13/76 09.59 woods medokla1 would like to determine who on the system is interested in a 9600 baud multiplexor.... ---------- response 1 02/13/76 15.31 deiss phar Do you take 4600 baud trade-ins? ---------- response 2 02/16/76 10.15 woods med didn't mean that i have one to offer...sorry, i should have been more specific...my info is that if enough of us out in the boondocks were willing to commit funds, an 8-channel device could be fabricated within a reasonable time (the technology, i am told, is available)...some of us will need to be content with a 4-terminal site for a very long time unless a way is found to reduce communication line costs... ---------- note 262 cupid? 02/13/76 14.29 vercellino com Help!! Does anyone know if someone has a cupid character designed? I need one desparately!! please reply via p-note john ---------- note 263 editmis‎‎‎ 02/13/76 14.31 alan m nuc This happened right before the crash at 2:20. I was editing lesson bounce, and had pressed the ≠ key to continue reading. At this point, the editor went crazy and printed out 8 lines of Tutor text continously. When it reached the bottom of the page, it started at the top. There was no erasures of any find, the stuff just kept printing. Nothing (including STOP1) would stop the display or get me out of there. I finally turned off the terminal (hoping to send an abort signal) and when I turned it on again, it was down. Anyone have an explanation? Alan M. Malakoff ---------- response 1 02/13/76 14.39 clark lawyer I have had the same error many times before PLATO goes down. It occurs not only in the editor but also in tutor programs. I have had doto loops go crazy and keep printing. STOP1 does not function and PLATO shortly goes down. ---------- response 2 02/13/76 15.01 golden s That can happen when the program which prepares output has died, but the program which sends output doesn't know it. It just keeps sending the output it has again and again. ---------- response 3 02/16/76 16.45 broadus css Sounds like the old NIU bugs. Bob Broadus ---------- note 273 ? collect 02/13/76 19.22 dave infe About 15 minutes ago, I was in a program that -collect-s up to 148 characters (with a 3-second -time- in effect) then -showa-s them, then repeats thru -next-. One of the iterations it got 'hung' for some minutes - STOP1 and NEXT did nothing. Maybe a fluke... ---------- response 1 02/13/76 19.58 blomme s No, you probably flooded the system with keys and your terminal got "turned off"...trying to send keys at over 10 keys per second is not advisable (and cannot be supported now really) and over 20 keys a second is absolutely impossible since the software only polls stations for input 20 times per second. (Obviously 148 keys in 3 seconds is far far beyond the pale). ---------- response 2 02/17/76 14.52 dave infe Thanks. Dave ---------- note 275 time? 02/13/76 22.06 kemp uicc I know that this isn't really needed, but it would be a nice convience, term -time-. It shouldn't be that hard to implement. I think it would come handy when you are in a lesson, or the editor, and obvoiusly when there is no clock abound. I also realize that if someone finds this an acceptable suggestion it would be put way down on things-to-do stack, probably scraping the proverbial bottom. Just a thought, Moondancer PS: speaking of the bottom of the stack, what ever happen to the site-active system variable? It has been about 6-7 months by now. ---------- response 1 02/15/76 13.05 s zweig iumed I agree. Such a thing would be a great convenience. Ʃteve ---------- response 2 02/16/76 15.05 gutereund css If I remeber the discussion a few months ago about this, the answer then was no. The reason is that there are already probably too many system terms, and all of them in lesson syslib which has to be condensed when system comes up. ---------- note 276 new gnotes 02/13/76 23.04 woolley p Several new features in notes: You may type "oldest" or "newest" for the oldest and newest notes in a gnotes file and its archives. Multiple sign-ons may not re-edit notes they have written. Only one person may be use the director options for a gnotes file at once. More complete information is kept on the last user of the director options. ---------- note 278 valentine 02/14/76 11.18 clark lawyer Thanks to whoever made the holiday intro page! ---------- response 1 02/14/76 12.18 k mast p Thanks ('if any') should go to Len Kawell and Al Harkrader for the VD note and animation on the welcome page. Bonnie Anderson did the welcome page originally last year. ---------- response 2 02/14/76 12.58 warrens uw Also, for the card in Pnotes.....THANKS!(sweety) ---------- response 3 02/14/76 13.06 t little research Thanks ('if any') ? As John Daleske well put it, geeezzz! ---------- response 4 02/14/76 15.14 the system elf Please Valentines' Day, not V.D. Have a happy! ---------- response 5 02/14/76 15.36 fay o Cute, Dave (elf, indeed!). ---------- response 6 02/14/76 16.03 hody med ** howdyareply???? ** ---------- response 7 02/14/76 19.54 jones mcl what a lineset in the pnote valentine, gad! (on the other hand) Thanks for the sedimental idea ↑ˇ↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ nt≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆnt≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆnt≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆnt≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆnt ---------- response 8 02/15/76 13.08 s zweig iumed Anyone who missed seeing these displays can see them for a limited time in lesson 'turkey'. Thanks to Len Kawell. ---------- note 285 Desirable 02/14/76 15.48 lucak ll382 279 Would you be my valentine? ---------- response 1 02/14/76 20.47 dave fuller uimc Awwww... ---------- response 2 02/14/76 22.30 baker me no ---------- response 3 02/15/76 06.05 hagerman ames Of course, you beautiful, long-limbed creature, you! Sauron ---------- response 4 02/15/76 21.03 dave fuller uimc Baker, you heartless cad... ---------- note 287 ecs flag 02/14/76 18.16 mike b cornell Here's a suggestion: Many people have, over the months, requested a TEAM-ecs, which would display the current ECS utilization at their site. There are plenty of good objections to in- creasing the number of system -TERM-s, but there are also valid reasons for authors to have ready access to this information. Therefore, I suggest a flag on the Author Mode Page which would say something like "ECS CRUNCH" when site ECS utilization goes over 90 or 95:. This should be simple to implement, and would be very graphic. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 1 02/14/76 18.20 clark lawyer a term-ECS would not be needed if mallot and muse would work in term-calc I think Mike has a good suggestion... ---------- response 2 02/14/76 18.21 mike b cornell Yes, but even if that were possible it would still involve needless keypresses. I think most authors just need to know that ECS is tight, not how many words are actually available. By the way, experimentation shows that -at 196.344- is a good location for the message "ECS CRUNCH". M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 3 02/14/76 19.30 kawell o -SHIFT- -E- always worked for me. ---------- response 4 02/15/76 09.17 fay o Gad, Len, you've done it again! ---------- response 5 02/15/76 10.55 berger mfl No he hasn't. If I counted all the times that an author has argued that our site has lots of ECS, just because that "E" display shows the relatively meaningless "current" alottment figure, my 60 bit register would overflow. WHEN the "E" page shows the BASE alottment, THEN Len's suggestion would be viable. ---------- response 6 02/15/76 16.02 kawell o This is fixed in the next version of Plato. Thanks to Dave Frankel. Len ---------- response 7 02/16/76 16.52 broadus css Thanks. ---------- note 298 talkomatic 02/15/76 11.57 joe f mathg This note is to the person who made talkomatic Please contract joe f/mathg ---------- response 1 02/15/76 13.20 woolley p answered. ---------- response 2 02/16/76 14.19 al mfl Yes, is Dave Wooley going to put a contract out on Joe? ---------- note 304 pso/help 02/15/76 15.14 hody med i think it isn't clear to everyone-- at least it wasn't to me-- that the kind of questions which were once written in "help" notes (ie: how do i get PLATO to do......) should now be written in psonotes. perhaps it would help to call psonotes "consultnotes" or "consultn". * a related issue is the learning value of helpnotes for non-experts at TUTOR. pso notes can not be read by the ordinary user. finally, there were also some benefits -admittedly accompanied by problems-- to letting anyone on the system answer the requests-- not just pso! * i realize that the same questions can now be asked in "public notes" but i still feel that this degrades public notes by dilution. * this, then, is a bid for the return to a system of public help notes separate from "general" public notes-- psonotes would then be mainly for problems with "aids" (cont) ---------- response 1 02/15/76 15.16 hody med and for specific consults which require private interaction -- for example on proprietary materials. * a bad second alternative would be to open psonotes to inspection (at least) by all. * it seems to me that the change has been made for the convenience of the pso group (which got tired of having to argue in public-- for which it is hard to fault them)-- and without asking the opinion of the user community which it serves. * am i the only one who feels this way? ---------- response 2 02/15/76 15.42 golden s It is not the case that most of what went into helpnotes should now go into psonotes. Rather, that belongs in public notes. We do welcome qestions in psonotes, and they will get prompt attention, but the intended purpose of psonotes is to collect comments, questions, suggestions, and, if it comes to that, complaints about the various PSO services. I agree, that some questions and their answers serve to educate the entire community and should be open to the public. Use public notes. Your guess that PSO instigated the change is wrong. No one asked us, but personally, I favor the helpnote-general note consolidation. ---------- response 3 02/15/76 16.59 snellen medneta For what it is worth, my understanding of the purpose of public notes is the same as described by golden( i.e. that it is a combination of the old general AND help notes). When I run into a problem that I can't handle in the lesson I am working on now, this notefile will be one of the places that I will come to for help. --JES. ---------- response 4 02/15/76 17.53 hody med if what golden and snellen suggest is true, it's gonna be a busy street! ---------- response 5 02/16/76 09.26 jmk pso Those things which were formerly to be addressed to individuals in PSO via p-notes, i.e. AIDS problems that went to jim/pso, should now be addressed to psonotes (unless, of course they are personal communications). Likewise, problems of a sensitive nature such as little-known ways to hang the system, lesson names that ought to be kept confidential, etc.. should be communicated via psonotes. General calls for help/attention are still best placed in public notes. ---------- note 308 I'm dumb 02/15/76 16.41 warrens uw Hello... I would like to find a(some) lesson(s) dealing with the subjects of Information Processing and/or Perception. As far as IP goes, I would like biological processing, though possibly simulated on computers. I am looking for a teaching lesson, as I want to learn more about these areas, though a work space may be enlightening. Thankyou....answer here or pnote. ---------- note 310 weird 02/15/76 17.10 crooks siu Something very strange is happening here at SIU. It seems that there are bad connections in the keyset because every time it is moved it doesn't transmit what is typed...how much does a new keyset cost? ---------- response 1 02/15/76 17.43 golden s If you believe there is a hardware failure, please report it in "repair". ---------- response 2 02/15/76 18.45 berger mfl I'm not sure, but I think the PLATO IV keysets are $450 in single quantities. ---------- response 3 02/16/76 07.43 frankel p You probably don't want a new keyset anyway. I would guess that the repair cost for the problem you describe would be very small. Of course, reporting it through repair is the only way to get something done. ---------- response 4 02/16/76 11.05 wood medsiuc Any chance we can get a favor from 'supreme being' of 'p' to help us with this problem?? Ray Wood The Photgray Kid ---------- response 5 02/16/76 15.17 durkin siu Besides, it is probably just a bad cable, not a whole keyset. ---------- note 312 leslisted 02/15/76 17.52 hody med two suggestions for the leslist editor-- * option to let you start the list with a particular number (like the common editor) * if you try to add a lesson already on, the message "already exists-- press NEXT to add anyway" or something like that appears-- but it does not let you add it at first available slot like you can if the lesson is NOT already on the list-- it would nice if it did... * thanks. ---------- response 1 02/15/76 18.47 fortner p Currently you may press LAB to choose starting number in the leslist editor.... ---------- response 2 02/15/76 18.51 hody med thanks-- and it IS written up in the HELP page-- too bad it doesn't fit at the bottom of the listing. * how about the second point? ---------- note 316 basethanks 02/15/76 18.47 berger mfl Thanks to Dave Frankel and others responsible for putting the BASE ECS alottment figure on the "E" site ECS usage display! Not to seem unappreciative or picky, but perhaps the same could be done with the "imode" ECS display? ---------- note 318 new gnotes 02/15/76 20.09 woolley p Two new conveniences in notes: SHIFT-NEXT from the directory page advances you to the next archive file. If you enter a notes file from the author mode page, you will be returned there upon pressing BACK1 rather than to the group notes page. ---------- response 1 02/16/76 15.01 kawell o GREAT! ---------- note 320 resources 02/15/76 23.05 hody med i am having a bit of trouble explaining in a report why PLATO has 1000 or so connected terminals (ports) which are fully supported by the communications system between the terminals and the computer yet if more than half try to run, essential resources such as cpu and ecs become in critically short supply. i am aware that most statistics so far available show that only half of the users run at one time but i need to know if it is true, as i believe, that the system is philosophically committed to supporting all users who have dedicated terminal connections -- even if this is not practical at this time at the level of service to which we are all accustomed. ---------- response 1 02/15/76 23.15 hinton ssu Could it be that lessons have gotten so large that they take up all the ECS even when "only" 400-475 terminals are in operation ? ---------- response 2 02/15/76 23.44 avner s The seeming conflict is simply due to another point in the philosophy of service--i.e., "give the user maximum access to available facilities". It is indeed the case that maximum expected usage is less than the full load (if memory serves, one may be confident at the .999 level that no more than 550 terminals will attempt operation at any one time--given current experience). Rather than allocate all resources so that everyone is limited to the quantity that would be available if all terminals attempted operation, a more generous (if also somewhat less conservative) approach is used. In addition, the mean amount of ecs used per terminal has increased by about 1000 words since the last expansion in ecs. It would seem that when a terminal is in use, there is simply a tendency to make maximum use of what resources are available. Al Avner ---------- response 3 02/16/76 09.57 frye mfl Does the 550 terminal amount reflect a system in which a large majority of the terminals are in "classroom-type" situations -- where daytime usage of the 1008 input ports could well exceed 550? Or is it based only on our exper- ience with this system where author interaction is more important (and accordingly, since authors can work at less "standard" times, maximum usage is less)? ---------- response 4 02/16/76 10.12 golden s Historically, the problem originates from the difference between the original design of PLATO IV and its actual implmentation. Originally we expected to have about 30 classrooms of about 32 terminals each. In each classroom, fewer than 10 lessons would be used. Now if we meet those assumptions all 940 of our terminals could be used by students simultaneously; but we all know that that isn't the way we choose to use PLATO. We have ECS for about 400 users. We have CPU for 500 to 600. We shall soon have double the computational power, and we are doing all we can to find a way to add more memory. You may be sure that future PLATO system designs will take advantage of our present knowledge of how users implement PLATO. You can also be sure that when extra resources are available, users will consume them and there will still be a shortage. ---------- response 5 02/16/76 10.32 avner s All data are based on current experience (the main reason PLATO is run in as "open" a manner as possible is to gather realistic information on use of such a resource). Clearly it would be possible to place limits on ECS and CPU use per terminal to insure that 1000 terminals could run--but that would lead us to the sort of sort of self-fulfilling prophecies on design that we have berated other people for. ---------- response 6 02/16/76 10.54 hody med does any one know if avner's observation that there is an infinestimally low probability of over 550 users at once is due to a freely chosen pattern of use or rather to the fact that when there are over 500, the system becomes increasingly unpleasant until people just get bugged enough and drop off!? * also: if the ECS supports 400 users at the level to which they have become accustomed, and the CPU supports 600 or more, why on earth double the CPU? it would seem that the ECS (or whatever other memory) development should have far and away the highest priority. or is there more to this cpu business than meets the eye? ---------- response 7 02/16/76 11.03 golden s There is indeed more to the CPU business than meets the eye. We need to develop ways to add computational power as needed so as to build much larger PLATO systems. And, there are other services, (e.g. background data processing), which we wish to offer but cannot. Similarly, we are seeking ways to add memory as needed. ECS doesn't have that property. ---------- response 8 02/16/76 11.07 wood medsiuc Have you all ever heard of 'Murphy's Law'? ---------- response 9 02/16/76 11.11 golden s Murphy's law is a direct result of the three laws of thermodynamics: I. You can't win. II. You can't break even. III. You can't stop playing the game. We have been at it for 16 years now. ---------- response 10 02/16/76 13.10 avner s As long as the larger sites are trading terminals for ECS during peak loads, it is clear that there is some limitation of terminal usage due to restriction of resources but this is one of those chicken-and-egg deals. There are not enough resources to support every terminal as an independent learning resource center. Given this fact, the options are to restrict ECS and CPU to permit all terminals to operate in a restricted mode, to restrict number of terminals to permit a limited number of terminals unrestricted operation, or a compromise that attempts to permit relatively unrestricted operation until resources run out. The latter approach is being used in order to provide both service to current users and data for future designs. ---------- response 11 02/16/76 14.11 hody med thanks, al and bill... that's clear and honest. ---------- response 12 02/16/76 14.49 b sherwood s One thing missed in the discussion is that with 1000 terminals installed, even with 10 times as much ECS there would NEVER be full occupancy. As with the telephone system, one CAN count on some terminals not being in use at any given moment. I agree that ECS limitations turn away users above 500 terminals, but perhaps the actual number wouldn't go above 700 in any case. ---------- response 13 02/16/76 16.04 gilpin peer It is well known from experience with utilities that pricing policies which do not take into account different levels of use at different times result in off-time users heavily subsidizing peak- time users, and an apparently ever-increasing demand for peak capacity. Pricing policies which do take into account different levels of use at different times, on the other hand, result in much more efficient use of capacity, a lower cost/price per unit of consumption, and less intense effective demand for increased capacity. Since PLATO has beautiful built-in capabilities for time-dependent account- ing, it would be altogether reasonable for those who are looking to the commercial future of PLATO to be thinking along such lines. In any case, experience formed in a flat- (or, no-) rate situation is not really predictive of what will happen if more sophistocated policies are in effect. ---------- response 14 02/16/76 16.45 judy pso Surely we have a beautiful example of "pricing" already in effect! The "price" of ECS (and CPU) is "high" during the day, which encourages people to work during off hours when the "price" of ECS for lessons and CPU for big background job is much lower. ---------- response 15 02/16/76 17.43 gilpin peer Well, yes and no, Judy. On PLATO as in some other contexts, "rush hour" is unpleasant enough that people will avoid it if they easily can...but if the cost of extra capacity is not translated into monetary terms in a direct way (eg, it costs $10 to cross the bridge at 5:10 pm), there develops a larger demand to make "rush hour" less unpleasant by adding capacity (ie, another bridge). Of course, any added capacity is quickly sopped up and the original situation, with the original responses, is re-instated, just as we observe on PLATO. But the added ca- pacity is needed only at the peaks, and charging the costs of extra capacity only to the peak users has the effect of helping people to realize that maybe they can get along quite well using the resource at other than peak times. This not only spreads out the use but reduces the DEMAND for more capacity. ---------- response 16 02/16/76 17.44 demo1 med gilpin's point is well-taken and should NOT be interpreted to mean a per hour charge! rather, a user might be charged on a monthly or annual basis but the magnitude of the charge would be based on the percentage of hours of use which were at peak. * judy has a good pt tco! ** sigh ** * g hody (incognito) ---------- response 17 02/17/76 08.39 avner s My earlier comments may have led to some misconceptions evident in recent comments. 1)Current peak loads are based solely on experience with the distribution of users on the current system. There is no justification for extrapolation to other kinds of uses. In particular. since the U of I PLATO classrooms almost universally are saturated with users during a large part of the prime hours, there is good reason to believe that a system consisting solely of terminals which were either accessable to many people or used for service functions (PSO and system-type things) would frequently saturate. 2)Data being gathered under the current conditions are NOT intended to predict future peak loads but to determine the extent to which unexpected, new, effective applications arise from free access to various CBE resources. If new approaches result (as they have in the past), there may be ---------- response 18 02/17/76 08.51 avner s justification for modification of future systems. If no such new approaches are developed, there may be justification for investigating cost-effective methods for spreading use of more limited resources. If we prematurely limit access to resources then we guarantee that new techniques which require a different mix of resources are less likely to be explored. 3) Parallels to use of public utilities are of value but should be used with caution. First, PLATO has more of a research interest than such utilities have (or can afford). Second, occupancy and usage factors are more complex with PLATO (or other multiple application systems) than with voice telephone systems or with bridges. Bell Telephone is now discovering this fact of life as a result of trying to relate current PLATO communication load factors to their established usage prediction techniques. ---------- note 334 data xfer 02/16/76 11.17 roman brains Course 'brains' is used to study the possibility of augmenting CAI lessons through the use of information extracted from the brainwaves of the student. It is necessary for us to take large amounts of data, say 100,000 words, off of PLATO to process on other machines. What is the best way to do this in machine readable form? Respond here or to roman of psych. ---------- response 1 02/16/76 11.44 t little research The largest form of mass storage available to the PLATO user is the dataset. The largest dataset is 17 parts of 7 blocks per part less one for the first part, which comes out to 118 blocks or 37996 words total. Using these it would take there to hold the amount of data you need. One problem I foresee is how does one get this amount of data on to PLATO in the first place. Using key input at 9 bits per key and somewhere around 10-20 keys/sec that is about 13 hours straight of key inputting. good hunting Todd ---------- response 2 02/16/76 12.58 avner s I assume that some local preprocessing of the EEG is being done anyway. In this case, it would probably be easiest to do the recording locally as well and add the data from PLATO to your EEG data rather than the other way around. Your DEC equipment should make this an easy task and the output from the PLATO terminal would require minimal conditioning for such recording. ---------- note 338 base ecs 02/16/76 13.47 wood medsiuc What does 'Base ECS' mean? ---------- response 1 02/16/76 13.49 golden s The base ECS is a guaranteed allocation. Your site ECS allocation changes continually depending on the amount of ECS available, but it never gets below the base amount. ---------- response 2 02/16/76 13.52 wood medsiuc Thank you. Ray Wood ---------- response 3 02/16/76 16.47 fay o ...and the "base allotment" is basically 1500 words ≠ the number of terminals on the logical site. ---------- response 4 02/16/76 17.07 broadus css of course at times of half ECS...... ---------- response 5 02/17/76 08.36 berger mfl That can't be right, Tim. The language lab owns 81 terminals. Our base allotment is 105,600 words, therefore, we only have 1303.7 words/ terminal. Will our allotment be raised accordingly? ---------- response 6 02/17/76 08.47 fay o Mike: I should have said "...approximately 1500 wds per terminal" instead of "basically 1500 wds per terminal". ---------- response 7 02/17/76 09.52 berger mfl I just don't like misleading people - and at site of this size, that was misleading them by a lot! ---------- note 348 -arrow- 02/16/76 15.51 b sherwood s Larry White and I would like to change the name of the -vector- command to something more understandable, such as -pointer- or -arrow-. Does anyone have a good suggestion for a name for the present -arrow- command (the one which accepts keyset input)? One consideration: note that "inhibit arrow" refers to a visible mark which is to be inhibited. This means that -input- is not a.great name, since "inhibit input" would have the wrong connotation. ---------- response 1 02/16/76 16.06 friedman csa If you consider that the function of the present -arrow- command is to accept input, then -input- or -read- or -accept- is EXACTLY the right name, even though none of these would give the right connotation if used as the keyword with -inhibit-. However, the tag of the -inhibit- doesn't HAVE to be the same as the name of the command. How about retaining -inhibit arrow-, but changing the name of the -arrow- command? ---------- response 2 02/16/76 16.13 golden s I agree with George. Use -input- and then we could make do with -inhibit input marker- or some such phrase. ---------- response 3 02/16/76 16.27 jim g reading There was a hue and cry about the name of the arrow command some time ago and I remember John David Eisenberg proposing the name "respond". I like the idea of "input" as most of our lessons using tough commands do so at an arrow. A name change of the arrow command to "input" would then correspond to our touch programming structure very neatly. ---------- response 4 02/16/76 16.32 bob y reading an old, old idea was to use the following convention: input 1010 $$ put an arrow at 1010 input $$ dont put an arrow on the page then we wouldnt have to worry about the connotations of "inhibit arrow" at all. ---------- response 5 02/16/76 16.41 b sherwood s If the tag is blank, where does the student's typing appear? I think most people "inhibit arrow" in order to put a different marker on the screen, no? ---------- response 6 02/16/76 16.52 judy pso I don't like -input- .. it sounds so very machine- oriented. Other things which have been suggested are: await, wait, ask, reply ---------- response 7 02/16/76 16.54 hagerman ames -arrow- is just fine the way it is; please _do_ _not_ muck around with it. I reiterate, please, _please_, don't change -arrow-'s name. Sauron ---------- response 8 02/16/76 17.04 clark lawyer hmmm...What is wrong with -vector-? It seems to me that it is very descriptive. If you are going to change -arrow-, perhaps a proper name would be -judger- and then inhibit judger (since an arrow will initiate judging). Even though "judger" is not really a word, it is descriptive. J. Clark Kelso ---------- response 9 02/16/76 17.06 woolley p The trouble with names like -respond- or -reply- is they seem too much like -answer-, which has a completely different purpose. ---------- response 10 02/16/76 17.06 fay o Here are some ideas from Roget's: reply response retort repartee (I like that one) rebut refute counter rejoin explain acknow(ledge) riposte Tim ---------- response 11 02/16/76 17.11 broadus css And I was just getting used to typing in D to write a p-note. Bob Broadus ---------- response 12 02/16/76 17.21 michael cornell The problem with the names in response 10 is that they are synonyms for the response itself, rather than the action of waiting for a response. I would like something like "query" or "asker" which more closely approximates the function of the ¬6. M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 13 02/16/76 17.26 alan m nuc Another suggestion along the lines of reply 4: input 1010 $$place the arrow at 1010 input (1010) $$the ( ) to inhibit the arrow, while the response starts at 1010 ---------- response 14 02/16/76 17.30 fay o Ok, how about: suspens(e) waiting expect prospec(t) await harbing(er) anticip(ate) ask tell interro(gative) On the rebound, Tim ---------- response 15 02/16/76 17.53 alan m nuc -question- Goes along great with -answer- ---------- response 16 02/16/76 17.57 demo1 med i kind of like "expect" except that it connotes pregnant" how about: desist heyyou lookout holdon halfsec hangin * more seriously, the structure with the parens for the inhibited marker (that still sets an at for student writing) seems nice and how about "waitfor" or "waiting" for the command? ---------- response 17 02/16/76 18.00 bonnie matha If the name for the -arrow- command is changed, we probably will still be calling that thing on the screen an "arrow." (It needs some name; I'd prefer to tell students about Plato's arrow rather than Plato's input marker.) So whether the -arrow- command is renamed or not, -inhibit arrow- can remain as is. The -vector- command could be renamed -pointer- without any confusion, but renaming it -arrow- would mean that this symbol ¬6 would need another name. ---------- response 18 02/16/76 18.09 gilpin peer With Clark and Broadus: Is this trip necessary? What exactly is the perceived difficulty with 'vector'? If 'arrow' is going to be changed, I suggest 'marker' as the replacement, since the command serves as a marker in the TUTOR code as well as putting a place marker on the screen. It used to be the case that the structure of a unit was described using this language, altho I'm not sure this is still so. Whatever term is chosen, let it NOT be one that continues the habit of viewing interaction as (only) scholastic question-and-answering. An -arrow- simply lets the person at the terminal say something to the program he is using, and "judging" is basically interpretation and only trivially a scoring procedure. Our language should reflect these facts and not further promote the view that PLATO is only a"teaching machine". ---------- response 19 02/16/76 19.22 chabay chem I like the -arrow- command as it is. It also minimizes confusion if the command and the thing it draws on the screen can be referred to by the same name ("marker" could refer to almost anything.) What _is_ wrong with -vector-? Surely it is used considerably less than -arrow- anyhow --- unless we can come up with an name which is truly more informative than -arrow-, isn't it more reasonable to leave things as they are? ---------- response 20 02/16/76 19.28 loitz acoustic As my high school geometry teacher said, 'Anyone who calls that thing an arrow should fail this course'. I request in the name of high school geometry to call an arrow an arrow and a vector a vector. You really don't want to convert all the lessons on the system anyway do you? ---------- response 21 02/16/76 19.37 koning csstaff Converting the lessons wwould presumably be no problem, but converting the minds of all the authors would be... I agree with several others that there is no need to change the name of the -vector- command since the thing is used to display a vector, after all. As for the suggestion about putting the argument to -arrow- in parentheses, that is fine, but what do you do with arrow (i+1)≠100 Is this an -arrow- with argument in parentheses or not? ---------- response 22 02/16/76 19.41 alan m nuc You got a point there about the ( ), but there are always things like ¬0 ¬1 or < >. I personally like -input- as it seems more scientific and exact than -arrow-, though -vector- should remain the same. ---------- response 23 02/16/76 20.21 lieber m Just think of the fun of learning about 'marker state'. To someone just learning tutor inhibit arrow seems eaiser than the non descriptive ( ). If vector must be changed I vote for pointer. I still press next to see a lesson as a student! ---------- response 24 02/16/76 20.21 mcneil a uicc Stick with vector. As for inhibiting the arrow, arrow 1010,noshow would be more consistent with Tutor as I have known it than (1010). ---------- response 25 02/16/76 20.42 clark lawyer mcneil has got a good point. that would not only be very clear and explicit, but it would condense the code required to make the arrow not display. ---------- response 26 02/16/76 20.48 hinton ssu Tim has not exhausted the possible synonyms for "ask": intreat petit(ion) inter(r)og(ate implore beseech Or you could change -vector- to -barb-... Ah, the slings and -vectors- of outrageous fortune ! ndh ---------- response 27 02/16/76 20.55 dave fuller uimc Maybe i'm just weird, but I think that the arrow command should not relate to a screen location: Something that could be looked into for further development of the tutor judging state would be to remove the tag from -arrow-. (and maybe rename it) This, we would have: at 1010 arrow This would have the advantage of defining more precisely the indication of where/what judging is, and would replace all those blasted arrow where+1 things that we are now stuck with. There would be no problems with conversion, except to created some ambiguity in those cases where "where", "wherex", and "wherey" are used. The new structure would also be more consistent with changes, both planned and made, to the graphics portion of tutor (as in -circle-, etc). Sigh... ---------- response 28 02/16/76 21.27 demo1 med maybe (for sure) _I_'m a little weird but i'd like to see the name of the judging state changed-- there is nothing more confusing to a new author than to call something like the "storea" command a judging command... what does it judge? * why not call it an input state or an acceptance state or any of many other names? then rather than calling commands that don't judge "judging" commands and a command like "judge" a "regular" command (when in effect it DOES appear to make a decision about a response) one could sinmply tabulate the commands and flag in the table the states in which they are and are not seen by the processor. ---------- response 29 02/16/76 21.47 pavicic ee It is interesting to see where all this is going! So far I vote for: 1) retaining the -arrow- command (-vector- seems fine as is) 2) dropping the location tag on -arrow- 3) something like ",nosho" makes sense 4) using "input" or "response" state rather than Jodging" (seems more general) ¬$4 above seems controversial...any thoughts on Search" state? ---------- response 30 02/16/76 22.32 ozzie batch Personally, I think that Dave Fuller's suggestion for separating¬ the¬ location¬ from¬ the -arrow- command is an excellent one. When the backward arrow is finally released by systems, it could be implemented as: at 1010 arrow backward or at 2010 arrow backward,noshow I think this is a much more elegant solution than to add yet¬ another¬ tag to -force-. (Is that what was planned?) ---------- response 31 02/16/76 23.38 carter comm how about the "swallow" command followed by the "digest" state. This suggestion, in jest, was inspired by judy's concern of machine connotations. ---------- response 32 02/17/76 00.58 b sherwood phys I will only note that those of you who like the name "vector" and think it the only appropriate name for a line with an arrowhead on it are displaying your biases as people with a strong physical science background. The word not only means nothing to most people, it sounds very exotic and somewhat threatening. Step as "far" away from physical science as biology, and you will find the word "vector" has quite a different meaning (albeit with a similar derivation). It may be that we cannot change the name of the present arrow command, but it would help ordinary mortals if -vector- became -pointer-, or some such. When someone wants to draw attention to something on the screen by drawing a line with an arrowhead pointing at it, it should not be necessary to think in terms of an entity whose transformation properties are those of a rho meson...... ---------- response 33 02/17/76 03.16 dave fuller uimc Point well taken. I could handle the change of the vector command so that it services a more broad section of users. I vote for -pointer-! ---------- response 34 02/17/76 08.02 john r reading AMEN to Bruce's comments about the esoteric nature of 'vector'. The real function of the arrow command is not to put an arrow on the screen but to require additional input for the execution of the program. The current commsnd name is misleadingly mnemonic. I propose: require 1010 $$ arrow at 1010, keyboard only require 0,touch $$ automatic enable, no arrow, no keyboard require 1010,touch $$ keyboard and touch ---------- response 35 02/17/76 08.16 k mast p Instead of going through all the hassle with inhibiting an arrow, or putting a 'noshow' at the end, why not just change the form to: arrow 1010;¬D $$ a '¬D' will appear instead of an 'arrow' or arrow 50,50;¬D or arrow 1010; $$ no arrow will appear ---------- response 36 02/17/76 08.19 daleske ames How about: initiat judging (or start judging) This would cover the problem of those that would like PLATO to be in the judging state but not worry about terminal activity (to allow use of judging commands for processing, that are not necessarily responses from the terminal). initiat judging;arrow,1010;notouch initiat judging;noarrow,1010;noext (arrow could be marker if you wish...) or: initiat judging;¬6,1010; (to specify what character you wish to use for the marker) John ---------- response 37 02/17/76 10.03 dvm ee a rose by any name... how about synonymous commands , etc do we have to select a _single_ word to represent a command function? ---------- response 38 02/17/76 10.35 woolley p Multiple names for one command would cause much more confusion than it would solve. I'd like a combination of Fuller's and Mast's suggestions: at 1010 arrow $$ default arrow at 1010 arrow "¬D" $$ ¬D appears instead at 1010 arrow 0 $$ no arrow at 1010 arrow n25 $$ showa of n25 for the arrow ---------- response 39 02/17/76 10.56 chabay chem As Loitz points out, anyone who has taken high school geometry should know what a vector is. If one doesn't know, it can't be any harder to learn the name -vector- than the names of many other TUTOR commands. As far as -arrow- goes, I would like to enter a plea against making it easier to change the symbol plotted on the screen to indicate that the student should type something. Anyone who has spent time helping students and new users learn to use PLATO will agree, I think, that the more variation there is in things like this, the more confused people get. Let's not encourage authors to use funny symbols for arrows! ---------- response 40 02/17/76 11.49 s zweig iumed I'm in favor of Woolley's ideas. (And if you paged through the 39 preceding responses to get to this page, I'm in favor of YOU, too! (My LAB key is tired.......) Ʃteve ---------- response 41 02/17/76 11.54 broadus css You could always use the '1' key instead of -lab-! ---------- response 42 02/17/76 12.23 ahasic med I think -vector- is a very descriptive name, since it can only be used with respect to an origin. It would be nice however to have an -arrow- or -pointer- that accepted fine or gross grid coordinates and wasn't affected by the origin. The present -arrow- is really a misnamed command. It causes Plato to wait for a -response- (a little too long) or -reply-. This may be confused with the misnamed -answer- command which is actually looking for a -right- (sounds like -write- unfortunately) or -correct- response. -Arrow- and -answer- have been around for a long time but there's no time like the present for changing them to something more descriptive. Also, I like the idea of inhibiting the ¬6 with a tag on the -arrow- command. Just yesterday I found myself typing inhibit arrow,blanks arrow .... . inhibit blanks ---------- response 43 02/17/76 12.26 nate iumusic or go to the end of responses and start pressing -BACK-. Anyway...PLEASE....NO changes to any command- names, although I do favor fuller's suggestions for the format of the arrow-command. Nath ps. Well, that's 42 responses now. ---------- response 44 02/17/76 12.27 fay o I am in agreement with Ruth regarding not encouraging uses of multiple symbols indicating a response is wanted. We authors really do tend to forget how bewildering the PLATO experience can be for the student user. Also, my previous (tongue-in-cheek) responses notwithstand- ing, is there really a need for this proposed change? ---------- response 45 02/17/76 12.27 nate iumusic OOPS! well, just found out back doesn't work here like I said...yes, it's early in the morning... ---------- response 46 02/17/76 12.59 rice nuc I like response 38. But a directed line segment is a -vector- and a -pointer- is a wooden stick with which to hit blackboards. You could change -arrow- to -twobiggreaterthansignsjoinedattopandbottom- It's descriptive of the marker and non-computerese..... JCRice ---------- response 47 02/17/76 13.06 jim g reading Re Dave Wooleys idea and Ruth and Tim's points against it: OK lets not encourage confusion by encouraging the use of a new input marker, but let us have the ability to do so! To add another deviate suggestion: Use the same form as Dave Wooley suggested but call it "input" instead of "arrow". What is so **** machinelike about the word "input"? Everyday you hear of decision makers asking for "input" from their constituents. It may be a somewhat formal, but machinelike?!? ---------- response 48 02/17/76 13.17 ld francis mtc and if "noshow" feature comes forth from this or another discussion, how about having a "specs nookno" implicit--to take care of -ext-,-touch-, and faked arrows? ---------- response 49 02/17/76 13.28 curly iu I like woolleys suggestion too..but I think i would prefer a second tag on the arrow rather than use the at command. e.g: arrow 1010 $$default arrow 1010,"¬D" $$optional tag arrow 1010,n150 What say, people?.... curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 50 02/17/76 14.27 meers wright I don't see how -vector- could be replaced by -arrow-. In physics, a vector (which happens to be represented by a symbol that is called an arrow -¬≤-≤> ) indicates a direction, while on Plato, a similar symbol (also called an arrow ¬6 ) usually indicates that some type of response is awaited. Seems to me that changing the command name would benefit few if any people. The input symbol we use now is called an arrow, and will be called an arrow until the day that it no longer looks like an arrow. When authors program, they ask questions at an arrow, and when students work, they make responses because the arrow asks them to. I believe that changing the "input maker" command name to something similiar to -input- could turn out to be more disruptive than beneficial except to physical science oriented people who call vectors 'arrows'. ---------- response 51 02/17/76 14.32 putch arizona Wouldn't it end a lot of confusion to simply replace the -arrow- command with three separate commands, such as: accept k,t,e,loc $$accept input from keyboard, touch panel, and/or [other] externals according whether k,t and/or e is replaced by 1 or 0 and locate the marker at loc, which may be enclosed in parentheses to inhibit its display(a default condition could be established using imain. process begin $$initiates judging of input from -accept-. process end $$ terminates judging of said input process search $$ initiates search for another -accept process v1,search,end,begin $$conditional form allow k,t,e $$ same convention as -accept- but accepts inputs that are not responses( for example, to allow access to -term-s at a touch only marker. -cont.- ---------- response 52 02/17/76 14.34 putch arizona As to the -vector- command, why not -linarrow-? That would make its adoption independent of modifications to the -arrow- command. ---------- response 53 02/17/76 14.45 marty smith mtc i like: at someplace wait $$don't show anything wait ¬6 $$or whatever you want to show if the thing has to be changed, of course; otherwise, leave it the way it is, with the -noshow- option. ---------- response 54 02/17/76 14.50 jmk pso How about renaming -arrow-," -allow- "? Think of the effect on the Japanese users! ---------- response 55 02/17/76 15.46 john r reading It is false that having successfully completed high school geometry makes one comfortable with the term 'vector'. Nor is it true that 'vector' is descriptive of the use frquently made of that command. What vectors there are in my lessons are used as pointers. This may be one command that ought to have synonymous names. ---------- response 56 02/17/76 17.02 al mfl Since every new student is told that an arrow is "that funny looking wedge shaped thing" on the screen, why not change it to the "wedge" command? Also, the option to inhibit displaying the wedge CANNOT be made part of the command. Think of the implications of the following (common) code: do arrow(n1) inhibit arrow do arrow(n1) ---------- response 57 02/17/76 17.05 railing iu After reading some 56 notes, it looks to me like the greater number of people who were serious about there notes, would like to keep the arrow command as is. For the vector command, I must agree that most people who use it, or will be using it will understand it as is. There is therefor no great need to change either of the commands. The great number of responses to this note does indicate or should indicate that simple, easy to remember, and logical names (yes, this also includes the vector command) should be kept as is. You have a good thing going, so why change it??? Malkin ---------- response 58 02/17/76 17.55 berger mfl I agreed with someone, but at this point, I forgot who it was! ---------- response 59 02/17/76 18.37 k mast p Perhaps Bruce should have created a file 'arrownotes'! ---------- response 60 02/17/76 21.57 warrens uw I liked the multiple tag arrow type command... also to change to something that .accepts. information from various sources (I believe woolley, and putch) One could do away with the .inhibit. command which raised objections towards the beginning of this book of response. Instead use a .dont. command..... that is .dont erase., .dont 'marker'., etc. Also, a suggestion for the present .arrow. command is .prompt. which is used in some other systems currently. * Thus, one might have a .... dont prompt,1010,k,t,e prompt 1010,k,t,e process prompt,t etc...... ---------- response 61 02/17/76 22.26 gutfreund me Please leave the arrow command as it is. Perhaps some users feel uncomfortable with vector command because the recognize the physical drawing of it as one of their arrows from their archery set rather than something they learned in high school. But if we accept this point then we must insist that the arrow command be called by what it looks like. Obviously the design of the arrow can not be changed so what else is there to call it. Let more commonly used command get the name. ---------- response 62 02/18/76 12.51 iezek ames My votes for: 1) Leave the names of the arrow and vector commands as they are. 2) Please.. If you add another tag to the arrow command so that it is possible to change what symbol is being shown, please let the default be the regular ¬6. I don't want to have to type arrow 1010,¬6 whenever I want to show a normal arrow (which is what most people want to do anyway). Mark Iezek ---------- response 63 02/18/76 17.53 broadus css If you want to change the name of vector to arrow, why not put feathers in its tail! ¬/¬/¬/¬/≤≤≤≤↑ˇ↑ˇ////≤≤≤≤↑ˆ↑ˆ¬ ↑ˇ>>>>≤≤≤≤↑ˆ__________≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤_¬__________¬≤¬/≤↑ˇ↑ˇ/↑ˆ¬≤>≤↑ˆ_ ¬/¬/¬/¬≤≤≤≤↑ˇ↑ˇ////≤≤≤≤↑ˆ↑ˆ¬ ↑ˇ>>>>≤≤≤≤↑ˆ__________≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤_¬__________¬≤¬/≤↑ˇ↑ˇ/↑ˆ¬≤>≤↑ˆ_ ¬/¬/¬/¬≤≤≤≤↑ˇ↑ˇ////≤≤≤≤↑ˆ↑ˆ¬ ↑ˇ>>>>≤≤≤≤↑ˆ__________≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤_¬__________¬≤¬/≤↑ˇ↑ˇ/↑ˆ¬≤>≤↑ˆ ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆ Bob Broadus ---------- note 366 notesnotes 02/16/76 17.17 woolley p Comments about gnotes have died down enough so that file 'notesnotes' is no longer necessary. It is still open for inspection, but will be destroyed later this week. Future comments and suggestions may be put in public notes or sent to me by personal note. ---------- note 386 microlib? 02/16/76 21.37 hinton ssu Well, after all this time I ought to know, BUT When you use the M option off the Author Page, you are asked if the micro you want is in the "micro library". WHAT is the "micro library" and WHERE is it ????? (If the standard micro/access list is meant, why not say so ?) ---------- response 1 02/16/76 21.40 halvorsen forestry file "microtable"... ---------- response 2 02/16/76 21.45 koning csstaff Lesson microtable is the equivalent for microtables to lesson linesets and charsets. It contains a number of microtables (but not the standard microtable). One easy way to get the standard microtable is to ask for a non-existent microtable. ---------- response 3 02/16/76 21.59 hinton ssu Thank you. I looked and looked in AIDS, but since I wasn't sure what I was looking for, .I couldn't find it.... ndh p.s. I went into AIDS just now and tried entering "micro- table" at the Which Tutor Feature ? arrow. It said it did not understand my request...at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that even if I had known what I was looking for, I couldn't have found it. ---------- response 4 02/17/76 10.00 judy pso Once upon a time.... you could just say micro mine charset cutsie and, since there was only one tag, the system would summon the micro from "microtable" or "charsets". This is on longer true. "microtable, is semi-defunct. ---------- response 5 02/17/76 10.33 p cohen med Lesson "charsets" is also semi-defunct. Try "charsetx" instead! --paul ---------- note 392 noword 02/16/76 22.32 slayton arizona Does the noword command work with -judge no-, i.e. if it judges no, will the noword be displayed??? DS ---------- response 1 02/17/76 02.59 blomme s Once a noword command has been executed, any place that a "no" would have been written your specified substitute will be written instead. ---------- response 2 02/17/76 08.10 daleske ames Think of it as though the system has placed the command: noword no in the -ieu- of the lesson... You are then changing that which will be displayed whenever a "NO" judgement has been reached. John ---------- response 3 02/17/76 09.47 friedman csa In other words, to directly answer the question you asked, "yes". ---------- response 4 02/17/76 10.28 warner iu However... If you do something like this: noword you idiot arrow (input,request,ask,require,marker,etc.) wrong some stupid answer concept that idiot judge no noword no endarrow When the concept is matched, "no" will be written. Remember that the noword is the last thing PLATO puts up after it has reached the end of arrow processing, so that a noword command comes into effect only after everything else is done! ---------- note 394 libraries 02/16/76 22.34 hody med neither linesets not microtable libraries are listed under "library" in "aids"... is this an intentional ommision? (charsets ARE there of course). * also: the library lesson for charsets is "charsetx"... the one for linesets is Linesets" and the one for micros is "microtable". would it not be more mnemonic to call them all by the name of the item followed by some consistent suffix? ---------- response 1 02/16/76 22.47 hinton ssu Not only that...to inspect a lineset, condense lesson "lineset": but to LOAD a lineset, reference lesson "linesets"...I just tried 4 times to write in Italics before I went back and read what (like a dummy) I had missed in lesson "lineset", namely, not to reference the lesson in which I had just seen the Italics displayed. ---------- note 397 statistics 02/16/76 23.05 rader s The "PLATO alive..." message has been removed from the "Welcome to PLATO, page. This information can now be found on the Statistics and Information page ( -DATA- from the "Welcome" page or shift-v on the author mode page). ---------- response 1 02/17/76 09.48 friedman csa Aw, shucks. ---------- response 2 02/17/76 09.48 golden s Thanks, Bob. ---------- response 3 02/17/76 12.30 nate iumusic You mean the system has gotten tired of boasting? (no offense, people) Nate ---------- note 421 word-list 02/17/76 11.10 wilmot mxc ******** wilmot mxc 02/17/76 11.07.48 While working on datasets, I wrote a 1250 word word-list in lesson 'azwilm'. I was wondering if the system could use this as a spelling feature on plato. It doesn't take a quarter of a disk. If anyone else on the system wants a copy of this lesson, send me a p-note. Wilmot/mxc. ******** ---------- response 1 02/17/76 18.51 midden p If anyone wants a list of about 2900 words that start with "a", you may get in touch with me... M.Midden ---------- response 2 02/18/76 09.08 berger mfl If anyone wants a sorted list of 15000 words, I will loan them my dictionary. ---------- note 422 space code 02/17/76 11.16 ahasic med In a charset positions ¬$0 and ¬$64 are marked as space codes. Position ¬$0 corresponds to the the space character. However I am unable to find the character which position ¬$64 corresponds to. Does anybody know? ---------- response 1 02/17/76 11.55 t little research It is the space code in character memory 3, the second RAM character memory. This is there so if you are writing many characters from the same memory with spaces that you don't to keep switching back and forth between character memories. Todd ---------- response 2 02/17/76 12.30 judy pso As Todd says, two "space" characters are used to make transmission of the characters to the terminal more efficient. To see how it works, put designs (characters) into 0 and 64. Then type (FONT) ab cd ef AB CD EF. You will see the 1st (0) picture inbetween the lower case letters, and the 2nd (64) picture between the upper case letters. ---------- response 3 02/17/76 13.45 ahasic med Thanks for the interesting info. ---------- note 426 curve fit 02/17/76 12.14 bateman a does anyone know of a lesson which you can enter points (x ¬+ y) and have it give you a good polynomial for that set of points? thanks, fred ---------- response 1 02/17/76 12.30 t little research Lesson calc has an extended index which lists a program to do Least Squares fit for a polynomial. Todd ---------- response 2 02/17/76 19.23 thomasson music I have a program which would give you a Fourier Series.↓↓↓ Uh, well, I guess that isn't good enough.↓↓ Jim Thomasson ---------- note 434 r skip 02/17/76 12.38 woolley p The number of responses to not 348 has persuaded me to make it easier to skip through responses. So, when notes is recondensed it will be possible to skip more than 9 responses by pressing shifted number keys. ( Shift 0 skips 10, shift 5 skips 15, etc.) ---------- response 1 02/17/76 12.43 golden s Thanks. That is an improvement. ---------- response 2 02/17/76 14.38 lieber m Any chance of paging back through responses? ---------- response 3 02/17/76 15.00 thiher ames I've never seen so many responses to a seemingly quite inoffensive note! Thanks for the improvement. jim ---------- response 4 02/17/76 17.45 p cohen med Just curious--have we established an all-time PLATO response record? Any archivists out there? --paul ---------- response 5 02/17/76 17.54 marty smith mtc if i*m not mistaken, the notes about "big brother" in early 1974 had about 31 responses to it. and at that time, it was a record. (i _could_ be wrong, folks, so don't hold me to my word) ---------- response 6 02/17/76 18.00 mike b cornell I _think_ that 31 used to be the maximum number of responses to a note. I remember a note I put in General Notes last May which reached that maximum and said so. Apparently, Public Notes has a higher maximum number of responses, so this could indeed be a record. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 7 02/17/76 18.21 marty smith mtc i stand corrected. i had the right number of responses, wrong note and year. oh well, such is life. (by the way, the "big brother" notes must have been 27; as that's the next highest) ---------- note 448 projects 02/17/76 14.52 travers mxc How about an update of "projects"? The last one was in November, and surely there have been some changes since then. Let's have a little more system ¬D user communication! ---------- response 1 02/17/76 15.00 thiher ames Hear Hear! jim ---------- response 2 02/17/76 20.39 blomme s I've tried to make the basic changes to reflect the major recent work. ---------- note 451 Append 02/17/76 15.31 mike b cornell Are there any plans to implement an "append" option in "notes"? Trying to save a number of notes into a lesson the way things are now is a _real_ bore. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 1 02/17/76 16.40 woolley p It's a possibility for the distant future. One problem is that the save buffer in notes is rather small and would not be able to hold even two notes if they were both long. ---------- response 2 02/17/76 18.01 mike b cornell I see. Thanks. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- note 465 old tutor 02/17/76 19.30 blomme s During an institute in the summer of 1967, Paul Tenczar induced a couple of the participants to try his new language. The following is a sample of code at that time: NAME P1182 PLOT TYPE YOUR aNSWER. tHEN HIT jUDGE. PROBLEM. IF THE LOGARITHM OF X TO THE BASE 10 is 2, WHAT IS THE VALUE OF X ? ARROW 1010 JUDGE 3 ANS 100 The name and plot commands very soon became unit and write. The positioning command on PLATO III (not evident in any examples I could find) was called where. This became at and the ans became answer on PLATO IV. Only the arrow command has survived--so far! ---------- response 1 02/17/76 19.36 blomme s Note that everything in the example appeared in caps. This was characteristic of all early work on PLATO III; the famous uplow command was eventually instituted to permit both upper and lower case characters to be written. Other commands whose names were changed in the early going were cjump (for calc jump) and ujump (for unit jump)--they are now the goto and jump. If anyone wonders what that strange judge 3 command is in the preceding example, I can only speculate that it provided a means to call up something other than case, standard character string matching judger--in this case, presumably judger number 3 was some sort of numeric judger. Perhaps only Paul Tenczar can give a definitive answer to that one! ---------- response 2 02/18/76 11.24 obrien uicc Mightn't it have been a -long-? ---------- response 3 02/18/76 14.55 putch arizona Question: What was meant by "hit judge"? Was the keyboard different(a judge key?) ---------- response 4 02/18/76 17.10 gilpin peer Yes. ---------- note 470 audio 02/17/76 22.38 john r reading The fancy audio disk editor available through lesson 'audio' has been made compatible with both the old and new styles of PLATO random access audio devices. If you use the editor and find problems, please let me know. ---------- note 471 rsrvd list 02/17/76 22.44 keith s matha Thanks, Dave, for implementing the permanent reserved lesson list in site! Those of us who have been getting up early in the morning for months in order to type in this list before students could tie up the allotment can now catch up on all the sleep we have lost! ---------- response 1 02/18/76 10.20 judy pso tsk tsk Keith! Don't you know that Early to bed and early to rise Make a man healthy wealthy and wise! ---------- response 2 02/18/76 10.22 michael english True, but you don't enjoy it..... ---------- response 3 02/18/76 10.52 berger mfl I like Thurber's version better.... "Early to rise and early to bed makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead!" Thanks, Dave... ---------- response 4 02/18/76 14.58 putch arizona The early bird may get the worm, but the worm should have stayed in bed! ---------- response 5 02/18/76 17.21 michael matha It is well known that the originator of the "bicentennial" statement, "Early to bed, and early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise", was an incorrigible practical joker. B. Franklin, himself a healthy, wise man, probably never went to bed before 3 in the morning (how many children did he have?). Therefore, those who have decided that staying up late, and waking late, is for the birds, be_ware!≤_ The miracles of modern technology have discovered that waking up EARLY is for the birds. ---------- response 6 02/18/76 20.20 snellen medneta Right, michael!! No doubt the early bird _does_ get the worm. ----That's great for anyone who likes worms for breakfast. YUCHHHH!!! BARF!! ---------- response 7 02/18/76 23.25 kent unl I _hate_ to run (with rising sun) to reach my PLATO terminal. But it's notes like this (in a hit or miss way) that give me pain sub-derminal! ---Aeolus ---------- response 8 02/19/76 09.52 meers wright Early to bed - Early to rise Was created in the days when you went to sleep when the sun did. I think improvements in oil lamps have sort of slowly eroded those habits. ---------- note 473 arrow size 02/18/76 04.25 blomme s A possible change that has been thought about is to fix the size to apply to the arrow--i.e., if you have placed a size 2 before an arrow in order to get the student's input in size 2, then the arrow itself would be plotted in size 2. Of course, rotate would also apply, so that an arrow would be plotted pointing the proper direction. This would seem to present some problems, however, since the plotting of a larger arrow and the appropriate sized space after it before the start of key input plotting would cause the plotting to start at a different location than it does currently. Comments are welcome, but it would be most useful to have those of users who are actually using this feature currently. ---------- response 1 02/19/76 01.23 daleske ames The tag on the arrow should apply to the lower left corner of the ARROW and not where the first writing is displayed. In the case in which the arrow is inhibited, the lower left of the first character position will be the position of that of the tag. ---------- note 474 pswd stop1 02/18/76 08.44 michael english I know this is trivial, but it's very annoying and IMPOS- SIBLE to unlearn: Pressing STOP1 after entering a password during signon kicks you back to the WELCOME page. Could this be changed so STOP1 is treated as NEXT here? ---------- response 1 02/18/76 17.24 dave infe Please? ---------- note 476 new file 02/18/76 10.12 berger mfl The Language Learning Laboratory has replaced their old notefile "monotes" with "llnotes". Please direct comments to us through the new lesson. ---------- note 479 cirkit 02/18/76 10.35 saltan uicc Where is "meller" of "ee"? ---------- response 1 02/18/76 10.47 gilpin peer There is currently no such signon. However, Dave Meller can be reached as dvm of ee. ---------- note 481 newreswrd 02/18/76 10.50 berger mfl Now that we are shown base ECS allotment on the ECS site usage page, how about a reserved word that will give the base allotment? ---------- response 1 02/18/76 18.44 frye mfl maybe it'll get here in time for the state primaries... I cast my vote! G. David ---------- note 485 clique 02/18/76 13.23 michael english I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I would like to express dissatisfaction with the number of new group notes- files that have elected to invoke total restriction powers on all but a few users. I am not talking about notesfiles used primarily for student comments or semi-personal com- munication, but the large number of files owned by curric- ulum development and site groups for inter-author communica- tion. It is certainly the prerogative of the owners of the file to limit access to it as they see fit. But GNOTES is such a great tool for promoting inter-group communication that it seems a shame to me that so many groups have chosen to shut out other authors completely. ---------- response 1 02/18/76 14.11 t little research I think what may be the problem more then that they have elected to invoke their total power is that they have failed to invoke their total power and haven't bothered to set Other type classifications to something besides none. Maybe this plea will sway a few gnotes directors to go back and take the few minutes to set up the other options. Todd ---------- response 2 02/18/76 14.25 chabay chem One of the problems in allowing unrestricted access to discussions in curriculum group notes files is that often such discussions explicitly mention information that should not be made public, such as names of lessons in developmental stages, and preliminary data on lesson use and performance. For this reason, the chemistry group restricts access to people involved in work genuinely related to chemistry curriculum development and use. Anyone with legitimate reasons for being interested need only ask us for access. ---------- response 3 02/18/76 16.11 michael english Why not then, at least, allow "write-only" access? ---------- response 4 02/18/76 17.31 chabay chem We do! ---------- note 486 ¬D 02/18/76 13.34 judy pso I discovered today when working through a lesson in student mode, that the micro-i (¬D + 7 spaces) is a BIG pain" I needed to make many degree signs (¬o=micro-o), and frequently missed and got micro-i instead. A typing error normally wouldn't bother a student at all; a quick touch on the ERASE button and all is well. However, in the case of micro-i, the student must erase _seven_ spaces before he gets back far enough to erase the ¬D . Unless the student is in the habit of banging away on the erase key, he may never discover this. I think the convenience of the student is more important than the convenience of authors. The micro-i should be changed somehow. Maybe it could just be ¬D TAB ? ---------- response 1 02/18/76 15.56 woods med i discovered that phenomenon accidentally while in course records some weeks ago...reported it to pso...got the ex- planation that it was probably peculiar to course records which were being "worked on" at the time...incidentally, entering a student named micro i (¬D ) into course records will be followed by a message "student d added"... attempt to delete student micro i(¬D ) gets message "no such student: and one must delete student "d"...however, at 1010 write ¬D $$micro i at 1010 write ¬0m,e¬1d does not erase the ¬D only write ¬0m,e¬1¬D $$micro i will make the erasure ---------- response 2 02/18/76 18.11 broadus css Have you ever heard of the bumpshift option of specs. It is very handy....I think they just use a bump to get rid of ugly things like sups, subs, shifts, etc. Bob Broadus p.s. this probably isn't done in the deletion so that the wrong student won't be deleted by accident! ---------- response 3 02/18/76 19.12 koning csstaff Bumpshift only removes shifts, not subs and supers. Why not change the ¬D to micro TAB? That would be mnemonic, easy to type, and hard to type by accident. ---------- response 4 02/19/76 11.05 michael english I wonder if MICRO-ing a function key is difficult? ---------- response 5 02/19/76 11.09 friedman csa I don't know, but if it can be done easily, micro-tab sounds like a great idea! ---------- response 6 02/19/76 17.08 koning csstaff If the standard microtable is a type 1 microtable, and not something weird in the system, there would be no problem in creating a microTAB. Suggestion from someone else here... How about a '.' followed by TAB: answer hi . write Hi you too! . no and so on.... ---------- note 487 ≤yuck 02/18/76 13.51 parrello mfl When backspacing causes one to move back beyond the arrow margin, (i.e., the student types 'abc' BKSP BKSP BKSP BKSP '___'), the ERASE key erases things from the wrong place. Thus, pressing ERASE after the above example erases an underline beneath the 'c', where there is none. The underline is gone when one does a -storea-, but it is still on the screen, and this makes things messy. ---------- response 1 02/18/76 16.44 clark lawyer I noticed that quite some time ago and someone just said "what's new??" Apparently this is a known problem. Sure would be nice if it were fixed! ---------- note 490 site syms 02/18/76 14.31 al mfl Could anyone please compile a list of what all those funny symbols in "site" mean? Like, for example, what does a "/" before the lesson name mean? ---------- response 1 02/18/76 15.38 fay o Here's a list of the ones I can think of: SYM Description: * tutor lesson or dataset being edited + tutor lesson or dataset being inspected $ course being edited - course being inspected Sorry to say I cannot think of an example of the "/"... (No symbol appears next to the name of a lesson you are using in student mode.) ---------- response 2 02/18/76 15.41 rick mfl Also.. / inspecting a character set ≠ editing a character set ---------- response 3 02/18/76 23.44 kent unl Why not put this stuff in a HELP sequence? ---------- note 491 site ecs 02/18/76 14.54 maggs law The recent change allow site directors to make permanent reservations was a step forward. Could I suggest another step along the same lines. That is to make the guaranteed minimum ecs for each site very with the hour of the day during prime time. (By now the system should have enough experience to make such a guarantee and give considerably more guaranteed ecs during the hours of 8-10 a.m. and 6-10 p.m. than is available now.) The site director could then permanently reserve a larger number of lessons for those hours. This change would encourage use of facilities now underutilized (and be a little self-defeating in that regard). It would be consistent with the philosophy of operating in the statistically safe range expressed in the system replies to the recent note on system resources (1000 terminals, etc.). ---------- response 1 02/18/76 17.36 chabay chem Suppose you reserve 40K worth of lessons when your guaranteed minimum ECS was 40K --- what is PLATO supposed to do when your minimum goes down to 30K? Delete your entire reservation list? It doesn't sound workable without a whole lot of thrashing around. ---------- response 2 02/19/76 07.51 maggs law The reservation list would be broken down into high-prime time, medium prime-time and low-prime time with the ecs guranteed for each part of prime time being what the system 99; sure of being able to provide at that time. PLATO is like an airline that flies a 747 in the morning and evening and a DC-3 at midday. Right now, it will only reserve as much space in its 747 as it has in the DC-3. ---------- response 3 02/19/76 08.50 avner s But it does allow walk-on-passengers on the 747! ---------- response 4 02/19/76 11.05 judy pso I think you missed Ruth's point, Peter. If you reserve 40K of lessons at 8:00 am when your allotment is high, who is going to delete 10K of those lessons at 10:00 am when your allotment drops to 30K? The student is allowed to request up to 40K at 8:00 am on the theory that by 10:00 am, when the allotment goes down, he (or somebody else) will be finished and the site's load will drop. Now, in theory, you could subscribe to 40K at 8:00 am and keep that 40K all day long by having students work continuously. In practice, the site loads drop quite quickly to the 10:00 am maximum. ---------- response 5 02/19/76 11.18 maggs law You have a point, Judy, that there would have to be a pretty tough deletion mechanism at 10:00 a.m., though I might be willing to live with that drawback. Some of our lessons are in the form of timed exercises that take half an hour. If we programmed the lesson or router to let no one into such a lesson after 9:00 we would have no problems at 10:00. However there would be no deletion problem in the evening, since the available ecs gets greater and greater as time goes on. ---------- note 494 bitcnt 02/18/76 15.35 steinberg mathw Why does bitcnt(2ˆ2)=7, when bitcnt(4)=1? ---------- response 1 02/18/76 16.05 hagerman ames Interesting...sqrt(2)ˆ4 is calc'ed as 4, but bitcnt(sqrt (2)ˆ4 = 53........ would think it'd be 1.. what _is_ going on???? Sauron ---------- response 2 02/18/76 16.07 jim g reading Further testing reveals that 2 to any power above 1 gives the wrong bitcnt which alternates between 7 and 8 when the power of 2 alternates between even and odd. For example bitcnt(2ˆ8) =7, bitcnt (2ˆ9) =8! ---------- response 3 02/18/76 16.07 woolley p 2ˆ2 is a floating point quantity. ---------- response 4 02/18/76 16.14 dave fuller uimc ... and int(2ˆ2) is an integer quantity, which is what you are looking for. ---------- response 5 02/18/76 16.18 michael english Performing a *bitcnt* operation on a floating point number would seem to be a useless feature; why not have the system round off a floating point number and convert it to an integer before the operator is applied? ---------- response 6 02/18/76 16.41 steinberg mathw Good idea. It would save people from questions like this, and would save having to type in int(...) all the time. ---------- response 7 02/18/76 17.12 friedman csa WHY is 2ˆ2 a floating point number?↓ It was recently pointed out (in surprise to FORTRANers) that 2.0, 2., 2.00, etc. are integers; the presumption would seem strong that what has an integral value is usually represented by Plato AS an integer.↓ If someone says that the reason is that the hardware has no integer multiply (does it?), then I want to know what happens if a different machine is at Plato's heart! ---------- response 8 02/18/76 18.39 frye mfl My guess is that the exponential routine is performed in floating point (to be completely general?). The machine has no 60-bit integer multiply -- it multiplies 48-bit " integers" that are actually floating point quantities with a zero exponent. G. David ---------- response 9 02/18/76 18.42 midden p This is a known old age problem. It comes with the fact that functions are not optimised. So what? 2ˆ2 is a function call (well close enough). It does some strange things allowing for floating point numbers in the exponent. I am all for correcting these problems, but it turns out that in some cases condensed code for lessons can be expanded. (supposed you did 2ˆ2+v1. It then would have to convert 4 into a floating number, which is more operations than is presently necessary.) Although, if one looks at it another way, the average user would be blest with luck. One person is working on this area right now, I'm hoping he has enough interest to correct many of these problems. Marshall Midden ---------- response 10 02/19/76 11.27 white p The designers of Tutor have been careful in differentiating the internal representation of a number of expression (which is dependent on whatever machine Tutor is running on) from its value. This allows them to store an expression in whatever representation is easiestˆ*, because it is only the value that is important, not the representation. Also, the representation may change at ANY time in the future, as long as the value remains the same. (I expect some representations will change this week!) However, for those who really want to work with internal representations, they have provided functions for that purpose too... functions such as $cls$ $ars$ $mask$ $diff$ and "bitcnt". These functions may ignore the value of their operands, and look only at their representation. ˆ*easiest ¬) easiest or fastest for compiler or executor or programmer. ---------- response 11 02/19/76 11.39 white p As the writer of the original note has probably found out, "2ˆ2" is an expression whose value is 4, but whose representation currently happens to be in floating form. while the representation of "4" is integer. No, bitcnt on floating point representations is not a useless operation, you just can't find a use for it. I could say that -readd- is a useless command, just because I, at the time, don't have any need for it. (ie, bitcnt should not convert the argument to integer) The representation of "2ˆ2" is floating point since it easiestˆ* for some part of the system to have it that way. ---------- response 12 02/19/76 11.42 judy pso PLEASE don't change -bitcnt-! Checking for floating point. rounding, and converting would waste an awful lot of time. -bitcnt- is very useful now because it is so fast. I haven't much sympathy with the poor confused people who don't understand why -bitcnt- gives funny answers. Anybody who uses -bitcnt- should be sufficiently sophisticated to use -showo-, upon which the answer would become immediately apparent. A great deal of thought and effort has been invested in making -write- and -calc- as foolproof (innocent-proof?) as possible, but nobody has ever suggested that bit operations could be used without thinking. ---------- response 13 02/19/76 16.12 david hebrew Suggestion: Implement a function called "actual" whose effect would be to return the actual bit pattern of the argument. Thus, "actual(2)" would return 02, whereas "actual(2.0)" would return whatever floating-point garp is lying around. (Thus, actual would make no attempt to do conversions.) You could then do -bitcnt- on the result YOU want -bitcnt-ed. (To those with suspicions---yes, I am talking about the 6700 ALGOL "REAL" function...) ---------- note 507 site mess 02/18/76 17.11 parrello mfl Much time in "site" is spent sending the same tired old messages to students about ECS being almost full or a shortage of terminals for scheduled students. In almost every case, the messages used are the same, because students are more comfortable if they recognize the message, and because we usually are saying the same thing anyway. Would it be at all possible to allow site directors to specify a small number of standard messages which can be recalled at the message arrow? ---------- response 1 02/18/76 20.02 fay o A small "permanent but editable" message buffer would be a boon! Perhaps a dataset could be devoted at the systems level to serving as the message buffer for all the different sites. Each site would automatically and unalterably have access to a specific and unique block (or blocks) for its own messages! It shouldn't be necessary to add more than 30-40 words of storage to "site" in order to fill this need, plus a simple datain/dataout routine and a short message editor!! [I am also in favor of having a site-specific editable messages for the "sorry, this site restricted" page.] ---------- response 2 02/19/76 10.13 artman uimatha Yes, but how about a system standard message so that students won't get terms like "ecs" at one place and terms like "memory shortage" at another. This can be very confusing to the student who has no "memory shortage" of the times he has been asked to leave for apparently (to him) different reasons. just another dummy, eric artman ---------- note 509 accyaid 02/18/76 17.15 leviton ed317 there will be a new lesson coming on soon, that will aid accounting students, with theory and development of accounting techniques. it will be aimed at students in intermediate accounting, and will clarify and help teach many of the problems one has in this course. it will be called accyaid. ---------- note 515 gnotes 02/18/76 18.09 chabay chem Wouldn't it be reasonable for the default case for "Other" for a specified course in a gnotes file to be the same as the default case for "Other"/"Other"? ie -- if the Other/Other is set to write only, then Other/something would be initialized to write only? I just realized that I have to go through 20-30 courses and change the "Other" options... ---------- response 1 02/18/76 19.41 michael english Would it not be better to have the default case on names created in the access lists (including Other) be write- only rather than no access? ---------- response 2 02/19/76 09.37 woolley p I dunno. Would it? ---------- response 3 02/19/76 10.18 michael english It would avoid what has happened already: in adding a course in order to give high access status to one individual in the course, Other for the course is automatically set to "no access", even though Other for course Other is set to some higher access status. Thus, without realizing it, the director may have shut out all other users in that one course completely. If the default case were "write-only", at least the locked-out user can write a note asking if it was intended that he be locked out. ---------- response 4 02/19/76 11.15 friedman csa It would help considerably if it were easier to move within the gnotes access editor from one name within a course to the next name or the next course. Then, for example, Ruth's problem about having to fix 20 or 30 wourses would at least be less serious! ---------- note 521 overflow 02/18/76 19.35 david cerlcc If I need to know if one quantity is REALLYˆ* less than another, do I have to check the sign of each before doing an logical check, or is there an easier way? * 'A'>'z'=(-1) currently ---------- response 1 02/18/76 19.39 michael english There are some lexical operation defines listed in the AIDS library that might do what you want. ---------- note 524 lineset 02/18/76 19.52 re hilton mtc What's wrong with the lineset editor tonight? I'm trying to modify a lineset character, but not everything works as it should. For example...after using -EDIT- to skip through line by line, pressing R (to remove a line) acts like -EDIT1- (jumps to last line drawn). Worse than that, I cannot get out of the -EDIT- mode!!! I have tried several different chars, and two different linesets, with the same results!!! Is this happening to anyone else? It worked earlier today. --------- response 1 02/18/76 23.57 fortner p There havent been any changes... can you be more specific? (lesson/lineset, etc) ---------- response 2 02/19/76 11.22 re hilton mtc It works today. --------- note 527 thank you. 02/18/76 21.17 parker arizona In case you didn't know the temporary lesson 'proj211', has been closed off from the general public. The lesson will soon be destroyed. Thanks to all those who made replys. If for some reason, you want a copy of the notes, please contact me via p-note. Thanks again. Mike Parker ---------- note 528 backout! 02/18/76 22.09 berger mfl When I enter lesson sound, it takes me back to "press NEXT to begin" after loading characters. Can someone explain this rather strange behavior? ---------- response 1 02/19/76 03.20 midden p Must have been the version loaded at that moment... ---------- note 529 pnoteprob 02/18/76 22.33 weeks uimc i get the recycle pnotes message with a warning that my notes are 0: full. ---------- response 1 02/18/76 23.14 andersen s Should be fixed now.. ---------- note 530 outerror 02/18/76 23.10 moore chema just after plato came up... condensEr not available.....followed by... out error 0 0 It said to leave this in notes, so here it is.... ---------- response 1 02/18/76 23.11 bonnie* mathw Got the same thing... OUT ERROR 0 0 0 good luck!! ---------- response 2 02/18/76 23.32 moore chema add "error in lesson plato" to previous note ---------- response 3 02/18/76 23.34 nate iumusic WOW! I haven't seen that error in quite a while. Thanks for the nostalgia, folks! Although I will admit, you used to be able to press -next- from the "error in lesson plato" page. This time, I had to press either -back- or -stop1-. That's quite the improvement, folks. Oh well. Nate ---------- note 539 sea*sand 02/19/76 02.06 ostuni iu I Just Want To Die With You Here. I'm Feeling So High When You're Near. There's A Story That The Grass Is So Green. What Have I Seen, Where Have I Been! ↑≠ Nothing Is Real By The Sea And The Sand. ---------- response 1 02/19/76 02.06 ostuni iu Help me!!! ---------- response 2 02/19/76 02.23 alan reading Have you looked in aids? ---------- response 3 02/19/76 02.35 marty smith mtc i thought you iu people had your own g-notes file? ---------- response 4 02/19/76 02.44 dave fuller uimc Mister Ostuni believes that his (actually, Peter Townshend's) prose is in the public interest. Fortunately, this particular piece of literature makes a lot more sense than a lot I have seen him put into notes. The need for self-expression is obvious. ---------- response 5 02/19/76 08.17 berger mfl The need for credit to the real author is more obvious. People will start inspect-coding their poems if you're not careful! ---------- response 6 02/19/76 08.36 mailman ustaf I liked the Who's version better - it wasn't orange. ---------- response 7 02/19/76 10.07 ostuni iu Actually its: Nothing is PLANNED by the sea and the sand. And of course it has worth...HE wrote it... But who is HE? ---------- response 8 02/19/76 14.54 copeland pfw go get 'em dave... WHO? da Wiz hisself of course!! ---------- note 541 a¬eccent? 02/19/76 02.11 d williams unidel I've made my own 'acute' accent mark for Spanish lessons, because the system accent doesn't hit the dot of the lower case 'i' neatly. (It's also not very visible. Observe: ti¬eo.) It seems picky to suggest it be changed to this: O O O O O But it looks much better, and perhaps O there's no reason NOT to change it. O Is there anyone else who cares either O way? O -- Dan O O O ---------- response 1 02/19/76 08.19 berger mfl Well, there is ONE very good reason - the current system accent is hard wired into your terminal. If the system were to change it, it would require that each terminal (of 950) receives a new hard wired character memory. If it is any consolation, the language laboratory has been using the same accent that you suggest for several years. ---------- response 2 02/19/76 11.56 judy pso I hope you managed to find your way through the "prepare your own accent marks" sections of AIDS, so that your ¬e will automatically backspace and rise for capital letters. ---------- response 3 02/19/76 16.30 d williams unidel Yes, that IS some consolation. Literally 'wired in', eh? And yes, I did find the instructions in AIDS--somewhat belatedly, but not too late. Thanks for the responses. --Dan ---------- note 556 problems.. 02/19/76 10.26 kehoe shs ... A few problems i'd like to comment on... We still are not receiving an entirely intelligible message on 'crashes' but they seem to be improving. Also, we've noticed that in the editor many times we'll make a key-press and Plato will ignore it. Is this a system-wide problem or are we the only ones having difficulty? Dave Kehoe Springfield High School ---------- response 1 02/19/76 20.27 hinton ssu Our downtapes messages are nice and clear and crisp: since we're in the same town as shs, I assume that their problem is not to be found in the phone lines between Springfield and Urbana...Dave, maybe you'd better enter this in "repair". ndh ---------- response 2 02/19/76 21.02 dave fuller uimc The second problem you describe is too vague to merit an exact answer. Tutor lessons execute under time constraints, and since the editor is indeed a tutor lesson, it is not exempt from these checks. Perhaps you are asking the editor to do too much too fast. Please re-respond and be more specific. ---------- note 557 back off 02/19/76 10.30 melody iumusic While trying to back my records off a seemingly frozen terminal, i received the message: unable to back records off... system error, please call system programmer. Interestingly enough, my records had actually been backed off the other terminal. ( I saw them being backed off.) Therefore: why the message? Lady ---------- response 1 02/19/76 11.58 judy pso Were you then able to use your record at another terminal? ---------- response 2 02/19/76 14.56 copeland pfw Would you believe that your CPU limit was set to '1'?? I would..... ***sigh*** your all seeing all knowing Wizard *** end of notes ***