*** plato iv group notes *** Public Notes notes beginning march 1, 1976 file pbnotes6 printed at 3:37 pm on june 12, 1976 ---------- note 0 U list 03/01/76 00.02 anderer ee Is it just me. or is the 'new' users list plotting slower and being interrupted more frequently than the old one? If it is slower, is there any chance that it will improve? (Even if the answer to that last one is no, I still like the new one.) dg ---------- response 1 03/01/76 05.11 j thiher amesrad I agree dave. It plots very slowly, even at this hour! I trust it will just take time and it willget faster as the code is gleaned. If this is not the case. maybe we should have the old one back. jim ---------- response 2 03/01/76 07.49 frankel p I have an idea about what's causing this; hopefully tonite I can pin it down. ---------- response 3 03/01/76 14.06 stephanidis iusn I don't understand the new option of selecting the terminal site by number.....could this be the reason for a slower plotter?.... ---------- response 4 03/01/76 22.51 frankel p No. Normal plotting speed should now be restored. ---------- note 1 accounterm 03/01/76 00.02 berger mflu In case anyone is interested: occasionally, upon signing on to a newly-loaded system, the terminal would display a message to the effect of "your account is using its full terminal allocation"... and it would not permit anyone to sign on. ---------- response 1 03/01/76 00.15 andersen s Fixed now. ---------- note 11 char 03/01/76 10.12 carter comm How large can a charset be before it is impossible to convert to -char- commands? Is this some fundemental limitation or PLATO's maternal instinct? ---------- response 1 03/01/76 10.35 cnb faa Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but as I recall it is the number of -char- commands (at 8 words each) that will fit into one block: 322/8 = 41 (4 words left over). My guess is the author who wrote the converter didn't want to mess with more than one block! ---------- response 2 03/01/76 11.06 judy pso It's 40, not 41, but I agree otherwise. ---------- response 3 03/01/76 11.36 carter comm many thanks. ---------- note 17 Map? 03/01/76 10.59 yankowiak politics Does anyone have a map of the U.S. that I may use in a new political science lesson? Due credit will be given! Thanks..... yankowiak/politics ---------- response 1 03/01/76 11.04 fay o Contact Jack Greve (greve of 0). Lesson "network" (which he maintains) has a pretty good map of the US and the contiguous continental states. He might be willing to let you borrow or have it. ---------- response 2 03/01/76 13.34 silver ve Lesson network is nicely set up so that the map can be -use-d. Many thanks to the several authors, past and present, of "network". ---------- response 3 03/01/76 13.54 jan park lest we forget...the us map was painstakinly drawn on plato by an "old" chanute proj. author (wt kennedy of mtc) way back in '72-'73. he's long gone ---------- note 21 varisched 03/01/76 11.27 fay o To repeat and supplement an earlier announcement: We now have an on-line scheduler for the Varian Copier in Room 166 CERL. To get to the scheduler, Shift-P (just as if you were going to do prints) and then DATA. this route will allow you to first see whether or not someone is currently signed in at the copier before proceeding to the schedule itself. ---------- note 25 missing 03/01/76 11.45 banks nfl What happened to the systems note by frankel/p dated 2/29? I sam 2 different notes by him, and they are both gone! The Bulletin Board has listed new editor features. maybe It should be adjusted? Fred Banks ---------- response 1 03/01/76 13.05 frankel p They will be back tonite. ---------- response 2 03/01/76 14.11 al mfl Is there any achance of leaving DATA1 the way it is and putting the new options on BACK1? By the way, what WAS the reason for moving DATA1? ---------- response 3 03/01/76 19.28 hody med is there any chance of being able to clear a line in insert and replace modes with LAB as it in TALK-- very useful for dealing with line errors at remote sites! * thanks ---------- note 26 ansv tag 03/01/76 11.49 p cohen med Just discovered something I don't like. A toler- ance tag of zero with the -ansv- command allows only the exact answer, which is logical. But a negative tolerance tag is interpreted as being the same as its absolute value. Could this be changed so that a negative tolerance will not accept any numerical answer? --paul ---------- response 1 03/01/76 13.39 warner iu Why? ↓↓↓ It seems far more logical to have a negative tag interpreted as its absolute value. It is relatively easy to disable the ansv with judge toler<0,continue.x ---------- response 2 03/02/76 09.46 p cohen med Consider one of my favorite lines of code: ansv (¬b+1)/2,(¬b-1)/2 This line is used to accept the first ¬b integers. Now it works perfectly for ¬b¬>1. buy it fails for ¬b=0. --paul ---------- note 27 lesson siz 03/01/76 11.54 trollip arlc What are the current limitations on lesson binary sizes? Is there a maximum limit on the disk size a condensable lesson may occupy, independent of the actual binary length. For instance. is a 10-part lesson ever condensable, even if it only contains 3000 words of binary? What effect do these considerations have on the -use- command. ---------- response 1 03/01/76 12.04 koning csstaff The maximum source length is 6 parts, and I think that the maximum source length for the used lesson is 6 parts also. ---------- response 2 03/01/76 12.06 mike 8 cornell I believe that the largest condensible lesson is six parts. I have good reason to know that the largest lesson binary allowed is 10,000 words. A binary which is about this length will give a "Lesson binary almost too long" warning. If you get this warning, it means that any changes to the condensor might push your lesson over the absolute maximum binary size and make it uncondensable. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 3 03/01/76 12.13 celia pso The check for number of parts is made before the lesson's binary is created, so a 7-part lesson with only 2 words will not condense. ---------- response 4 03/01/76 20.14 j thiher amesrad What is the absolute limit of the lesson binary? Many times in many lessons I've seen the warning sign and the lesson binary has usually been around 10100 words or so. How much leeway is allowed? Also, it might be beneficial to all authors to know that some commands, while very neat in coding, are very costly in terms of lesson binary. Is there anything to tell one this information? I'm thinking mostly of people who suffer this warning message and would like to economize their lesson binary a bit. jim ---------- response 5 03/01/76 21.56 parker arizona If you really want to see a large lesson try 'pizza'. The lesson binary ITSELF is 11990. This is over the system stated maximum of 10000 words. In fact. the warning message will appear if you are the first person to condense it and still executes ok. So what is the real maximum of lesson binaries? Mike Parker ---------- response 6 03/01/76 21.57 little buddy matha 12,000 words LB ---------- response 7 03/01/76 22.36 fortner p and a 7 part file WILL condense if only 6 parts are filled ---------- response 8 03/01/76 23.06 trollip arlc A 7 part lesson with 6 filled may, but an 8 part one with almost nothing in will not, it seems! ---------- response 9 03/02/76 00.45 fortner p Wrong: For example, lesson ' linesets' is 10 parts long, and condenses very well (only 3 parts are used) ---------- response 10 03/02/76 08.31 michael english But will a -use- reference to a large file be accepted? ---------- response 11 03/02/76 10.57 white p Those large files will condense if the last physical block is within the first six parts... and since you generally have no control over where on disk the logical blocks go... you sometimes get two people saying contradictory things. I would imagine that it is the same for -use- files, thought I am not sure. ---------- note 28 woolley 03/01/76 11.59 schreiner csa It seems that when answering a note (and thus being in 'insert' mode for the first time in a new note), the BACK1 key points to the 'edit' mode page of the note. Pressing BACK1 from 'insert' mode terminates inserting, but without the current line. ---------- response 1 03/01/76 12.23 woolley p You mean in personal notes, don't you? I can reproduce it there, but not in group notes. I fixed it in p-notes. ---------- response 2 03/02/76 08.08 scheriner csa Right, thanks. ---------- note 33 jout notes 03/01/76 13.04 friedman csa It seems to be true that a -jumpout- to a group notes file will enter lesson "notes" and use the named notefile.↓ THIS IS GREAT!↓ I observed this just now, on the prime time version. Is it ready for regular use? In other words, can we count on this being with us, or did I just stumble on something that's not yet ready for use? ---------- response 1 03/01/76 14.29 frye mfl It was my impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that this feature was announced somewhere earlier -- at any rate, the MFL crew has been using it for quite some time now for student feedback! G. David ---------- response 2 03/01/76 15.31 friedman csa Well, I can't find an announcement, and it isn't shown in the help pages of notes option c. Systems? ---------- response 3 03/01/76 19.57 blomme s Unannounced. ---------- response 4 03/02/76 09.10 friedman csa But should we lay off it? Is the lack of announcement an oversight (such oversights have been made in the past), or is it not ready for use yet? ---------- response 5 03/02/76 09.32 woolley p Just don't opened on it. Changes may have to be made to the way it is handled, so it might stop working sometime. ---------- response 6 03/02/76 10.06 michael english If GNOTE files become accessible to -jumpout-, would it be possible to make their special nature completely transparent and fix it so a -from- points to the GNOTE file name rather than to "notes", either using a variable or a leslist-based -from-? I can think of one application that would benefit from this -- notesfile directories such as "forum" [a plug!] or "cycle" [another plug!!] --, but the issue is more one of consistency than anything else. Regard it as having a priority of 101 on a scale of 1-100. ---------- response 7 03/02/76 16.01 friedman csa Wooley, thanks for the definitive response.↓ Now, of course: any idea when this feature WILL become standard? ---------- note 41 allot-used 03/01/76 14.14 simons cs196 heres something that has probably been asked several times.... for good-old shift "why not display the ecs difference, instead of (or possibly in addition to) the amount alloted and whats available. i know this is being lazy, but the computer can subtract much better(and faster) than i can. ---------- response 1 03/01/76 20.16 j thiher amesrad I agree...a useful suggestion... ---------- note 43 instructor 03/01/76 14.48 cberpriller arizona i've noticed that instructor records cannot access datafiles. isn't this strange since datafiles are primarily for instructors to take data on their students? it requires an author record to look at a datafile. dave ---------- response 1 03/01/76 15.26 chabay s Well, this can certainly be changed. However, the kind of data on student-lesson interactions normally collected in datafiles is really much more informative to lesson authors engaged in debugging / revising lessons than it is to instructors. since it interpretation depends on a detailed knowledge of the internal machinery of a lesson. Usually only a subset of this data. appropriately processed and displayed, is meaningful to instructors. (An exception is the -Output-, I guess.) ---------- response 2 03/01/76 16.50 silver ve I would say that u-words be another exception. sometimes. ---------- response 3 03/02/76 08.17 berger mfl If an instructor types "data" at the choose a lesson arrow, he can inspect the datafile associated with his course. ---------- note 45 note dir. 03/01/76 15.26 friedman csa I'd like to offer a few suggestions about the note director's options in Group Notes.↓ There is considerable flexibility here, but a few features for convenience would be very much appreciated,↓ Most notably. in the section in which signons are added and access options specified or changed, please put in a single key (NEXT1?) which will move from one signon to the next within one course list, or from one course to the next within the list of courses. As it is now, one must back from a signon and type in the next one, and then must back from one course and type in the next course.↓ Also, when creating a new course, could you initialize its signon list to be the same as that for course Other, including all user types listed there, and including the access rights for each. This would make adding a new course and one name much easier, by eliminating the need to type in all the O, A, S, etc. entries. ---------- response 1 03/01/76 15.28 friedman csa Also, it would be nice to have a -long 1- at the arrows at which course names and signon names are entered, with judging like that at the AUTHOR MODE arrow, so that if a capital letter is entered (O, A, S, I, M), it will be recognized immediately, but if anything else is entered, it will execute a longer -long- and -judge exit-. ---------- response 2 03/01/76 21.34 woolley p These seem like good suggestions. I'll put them on my list. ---------- response 3 03/02/76 08.53 friedman csa Thanks very much. ---------- note 49 new tnotes 03/01/76 16.14 b cohen med I would like to announce the existence of a new -use-able↑ˇ "Tutorial Notes" facility. Tutorial Notes is based on sys-↑ˇ tem's Personal Notes, but allows students to communicate to↑ˇ authors and instructors. It has almost all of the features↑ˇ and conventions of Personal Notes, including a method of↑ˇ saving notes, and a Tutorial Notes manager. If you are at↑ˇ all interested in trying out and/or using this facility.↑ˇ please contact me for the particulars.↑ˇ -- Dr. Barry Cohen↑ˇ SBMS Author Group ---------- note 52 curr again 03/01/76 19.09 bowery comm Repeat of note that didn't live long and needs responses: Here are two suggestions that would go hand-in-hand: 1) icurr * execute unit at the beginning of each new current * unit 2) showa curru * -curru- is the name of the current unit * -curru-¬- if reference to -curru- is in unit * AND unit is accessed by -icurr- logic Worthwhile or not systems? ---------- response 1 03/01/76 20.30 koning csstaff Definitely worthwhile..." ---------- response 2 03/02/76 00.39 al mfl Still don't know what the difference is between icurr and iamin. ---------- response 3 03/02/76 01.05 fritz amesrad Current unit ¬) unit you are currently in. (logical) Main unit ¬) your current _main_ unit (also logical). The two are not necessarily the same. If you -jump- to unit a, then unit a is your main AND current unit. If you then -do- or -join- unit b. unit a is still your MAIN unit. but unit b is now your CURRENT unit. Bowery's -icurr- would be excecuted at the start of ANY unit entered. no matter how. ---------- response 4 03/02/76 10.29 warner iu One question.... When you -do- the icurr unit at the beginning of the new current unit, does not the icurr unit become the new current unit as soon as it is entered...and will it not cause another -icurr- operation going into the -icurr- unit which will then be the new current unit, which will then cause an -icurr- operation causing the -icurr- unit to become the new.............. ↓↓↓ But "curru" would be of inestimable advantage! ---------- response 5 03/02/76 11.09 bowery comm Who said anything about -do- silas? I said "execute" not -do-. The qualifications on Curru- (the suggestion you liked) should have made that clear. ---------- response 6 03/03/76 15.46 wagle iu but then you might make it so that the unit given in the tag of the icurr command would not execute the icurr command.... ---------- note 61 base gripe 03/01/76 22.35 dave infe There seems to me to be some hassle with using -help--type.units (esp. -term-) in lessons other than page- turners: namely, their insistance on returning to the UNIT they were called from. If you do anything between the -unit- command and the -pause-. -arrow-, or -unit- command that permitted the branch, it will be repeated; and this can be disastrous if not provide for. -Entry a- -base a- doesn't do the job elegantly, since it activates 'backs' and may require a -base - later. -inhibit term- helps, but doesn't adequate. The simplest thing I'd like to see would be a command like -helpb- (for helpbase), which would (like base or restart)specify a point (entry as well as unit) to which -terms- and other help-sequences entered before the next -unit- or -base- would return, without the bizarre side -effects of -base- (mainly starting a help sequence!) ---------- response 1 03/02/76 09.51 banks mfl Have you seen "jkey" in aids? It may solve some of your problems. ---------- response 2 03/03/76 09.08 dave infe No way. And I'm not the only one who has to rewrite whole lessons upon adding a single -term-, just to program around this quirk. ---------- note 64 >6part 03/01/76 23.03 trollip arlc It appears that one cannot 'use' any unit contained in an uncondensable lesson, specifically a lesson greater than 6 parts. If this is the case what is the use of a greater-than-6-part lesson? It seems to me that a large (>6 part) lesson would be extremely useful for storing oft used units to be accessed when needed by a variety of lessons. ---------- response 1 03/02/76 08.54 judy pso 6-part lessons are used for storage of files which are not intended to be condensed, such as "catalog". The AIDS picture library is also an extra-length lesson: 12 parts of nothing but character sets. ---------- note 69 L10 03/02/76 07.44 a appel uni Thanks for the special editing features. How about adding L (number of lines displayed) to it? I would like to permanently display 10 lines (have L10). This seems like a good thing to put in the special features. ---------- response 1 03/02/76 09.08 friedman csa Special editing features are VERY nice. Thanks.↓ Hate to grouse at the same time, but it seems to me that SHIFT-BACK is a pretty strange key to put the security code change onto. I realize we've run out of function keys (that's about the only one left), but the connotations of BACK seem wrong. How about shift-S, as on the author mode page? Or, how about putting that back on SHIFT-DATA, and making the new options a second page off the DATA page? ---------- response 2 03/02/76 09.16 michael english I like that last idea...an option off the data page. ---------- response 3 03/02/76 09.22 havorsen forestry I'd rather make it "S" from the block page. It would be a lot more consistent with the author mode page! ---------- response 4 03/02/76 09.23 parrello uimatha NO! The fewer times we have to plot that blasted data page, the better. The thing takes an eternity. Pressing STOP is well and good, but then one can't see what one is doing. It is bad enough that we have to endure it to change the -use- lesson and security codes. I would prefer changing the type-your-code page to SHIFT's'. ---------- response 5 03/02/76 10.32 maggs law 99: of the time when I get INSPECT ONLY. it is because I forgot to enter the right change code. I would really prefer to be stopped before I even got into the lesson with a page that said: INSPECT ONLY Enter CHANGE CODE or press NEXT to INSPECT ¬6 As it is now, I usually get into a block and only realize the problem when I try to change something. ---------- response 6 03/02/76 11.26 j wilson unidel Maggs' suggestion would be of great aid to new authors who might otherwise miss the message as well as saving a keypress and page plotting for others. It would still bf nice to be able to get to that page from the block listing page with something like S, though. ---------- response 7 03/02/76 11.35 s zweig iusn Howzabout putting the security code on the same page as the special options...and it would then _all_ be accessible by DATA1?? Ʃteve ---------- response 8 03/02/76 12.08 curly iu NO....the less there is to plot on that often used page the better. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 9 03/02/76 12.35 jan park maggs: why throw in more stopper pages between the ¬+ author mode page and the lesson block list page? wilson: i, for one, favor making the block list page available immediately (as it is now if your have either the inspect or change codes match) additional key presses just for reminders to some i think would really be a frustration to the rest of us ! i also think that 'S' to enter a change code would be fine, consistant with the author mode page and easy to remember (could S be made available form the block list as well as from within a block, to make typing new change code easy?) ---------- response 10 03/02/76 13.18 gilpin peer I know this ain't no democracy, but I think Maggs' sugges- tion is a very good one. Of course, the extra page should be skipped if the user has selected INSPECT ONLY b pressing LAB instead of NEXT on the author mode page. I note, by the way, that if you _have_ pressed LAB instead of NEXT on the author mode page, and then wish to switch to EDIT mode, that pressing SHIFT BACK takes you to the "Type the security code..." page instead of right into EDIT mode--even if the security code is already the correct one. ---------- response 11 03/02/76 13.33 barr econp I agree with maggs ¬+ wilson. Everyone (especially new authors) fail to realize they are in inspect mode, and are going to have to enter the security code anyway. Stopping them before they enter the block listing is not and extra page. The additional burden to those who are entering a lesson in inspect mode and did not press lab would be insignificant compared to a the time lost ploting additional information. mike ---------- response 12 03/02/76 15.21 jmk pso I like Magg's suggestion. However, if it is not going to be that way, PLEASE put the security code option back on the DATA1 key. Some thoughts: How many other places is DATA1 the access key for security code change (e.g. records editor)? Will they be changed to BACK1 too? What are the relative frequencies for changing security codes vs. changing standard charset/micro loading for a lesson? How much convenience do we need for access to each of these pages? ---------- response 13 03/02/76 17.49 meers wright Just as HELP1 has apparently become the delete key, so has DATA1 very fast apparently become the security code key. I would like to suggest that DATA1 be returned to security code, and DATA be a three choice index to: a. Lesson Security Codes / -use- Reference b. Author/Lesson Info (and last editor info) c. Special Edit Features ---------- response 14 03/02/76 18.38 marty smith mtc wow" and i didn't want to complain because i thought no one else would! ↑*m beginning to think some of these changes are done purposely, just to frustrate authors. i STILL haven*t gotten used to "D" for p-notes! and i receive a ton of p-notes a day! ( 10 - 15 ). come of frankel. un-frustrate some of us!!! (as per his request in new system features, this has been fowarded to him through p-notes) ---------- response 15 03/03/76 08.02 a appel uni No one has answered my note yet. How about L in the special options? ---------- response 16 03/03/76 09.12 frankel p L will be added soon, Thanks for the good idea! ---------- response 17 03/03/76 12.25 friedman csa Ok, Thanks, Dave....I agree, it's a good idea.↓ But what about the matter of the BACK1 key? PLEASE. ---------- note 72 ID broke 03/02/76 08.18 fay o I have been plagued this morning with the following prob- lem: while in the ID mode in the editor, inserting a line of text in a display, often as not NEXT at the end of a line of text will put me back in the cursor mode, NOT to the next line of text as it should. What gives? ---------- response 1 03/02/76 08.38 fay o Oh, the problem is still with me and is intermittently re- peatable. I am not receiving line errors, etc, and can only reproduce the error every 10th line of text or so. I am working with a micro and a charset, if that could possibly make any difference. ---------- note 73 newedithuh 03/02/76 08.24 berger mfl The new editor features are very nice, but how does one blank out a charset entry? Pressing NEXT at the arrow simply moves down to the next arrow. ---------- response 1 03/02/76 09.38 frankel p I think we finally settled on a format (its changed a few times during the past hour). Type nothing and press NEXT to clear an entry. Sorry for the confusion! ---------- note 78 thanx paul 03/02/76 08.56 ld francis mtc let me be the first to offer public thanks to paul for the new markup feature. ---------- note 89 microfail 03/02/76 10.13 parrello mfl I got an "Error in loading microtable" message on entry to lesson "execution" in edit mode just now. Previous and subsequent entries with the microtable pointers unchanged, however, have failed to produce the message. The microtable DOES exist. Also, when I pressed BACK instead of NEXT1 at the "SHIFT-NEXT to continue" pause, it took me straight through instead of taking me out. ---------- response 1 03/02/76 12.59 friedman csa Sounds like the microtable loading bug that's been noticed on ordinary lessons has struck a system lesson now! ---------- note 93 abnormal? 03/02/76 10.48 warner iu Why are tabsets you put in yorself called ABNORMAL on the charset page? Special, yes, user-defined, yes, even your own. but ABNORMAL? ---------- response 1 03/02/76 11.28 nate iumusic The fun part is when you change the first tab (seperating the command and tag fields). and you get ABNORMAL tabset all over the blasted editor!! (including a special thing from the HELP pages saying press help for description of ABNORMAL tabsets) Ok, when do we see "ABNORMAL LESSON" or "ABNORMAL USER"? (that last catagory might apply to all of us?) Is that a systems-comment on us users that change the tabset (even if we leave the first one alone)? bearded-wonder ---------- response 2 03/02/76 16.18 frankel p Websters: abnormal deviating from the normal or average... Whats wrong with that? ---------- response 3 03/02/76 20.01 nate iumusic Websters also does NOT define PLATO as a computer either. Besides, I just got through seeing the movie "King of Hearts", Bedises, anybody want to go into the connotations of "devience"?? Nate ---------- response 4 03/03/76 09.19 parrello uimatha Use of the word !devience" implies that the writer has trouble with English spelling. Is that what your meant by "connotations"? ---------- note 99 pnote prob 03/02/76 11.53 c wickham unidel I was wondering.... if you are forwarding a pnote to someone and the page about the save buffer being already full comes on, why cant we have an option to display what is in the buffer. Just enough to get an idea would be sufficient.; ---------- response 1 03/02/76 18.07 k mast p Ok. Will do. (Don't hold your breath, as midterms are upon me, however!) ---------- note 101 design 03/02/76 12.16 dvm ee I am asking those authors who did not respond to my first note: What kind of Instructional Design Aids (not TUTOR) might be helpful to you. We develop some aids for the design of lessons, and wish to concentrate on those things for which you feel a need. These "aids" could be of a nature to help in the analysis of objectives; selection of teaching method, question format, sequencing, feedback, etc. Any needs? p.s. We would also appreciate comments on the current section in TUTOR !aids" re instructional design. Thank You, Dave Meller ---------- note 103 capmarkup 03/02/76 12.37 snyder mfl re: capitalization markup fail to capitalize the first word at each arrow below. -answer- gives proper markup; -concept- gives unidentified word markup (improper). vocabs words This,is,the,concept unit test arrow 1010 answer This is the answer arrow 1210 concept This is the concept ---------- response 1 03/02/76 14.51 tenczar s thanks for pointing out this very subtle error... it relates to a logical error in the execution of the concept command...currently, if a word in not perfectly matched, then a search is made through a list of "common" words (like: the, there, where, this, etc) to see if the word matches one of these...this is done so that the "speller" part of the concept command doesn't call a "misspell" to a common word (e.g., there and three, where and were, etc)...then, finally, the "speller" (which also finds capitalization errors) is called into play. it seems fairly obvious from your example that the capitalization checks should precede the "common" vocabulary checks. I will try to fix this sonnest. thanks ---------- note 105 clear char 03/02/76 13.11 michael english It would be handy if the C option (charset load) from the author mode page had a choice to clear the charset flag without the need of specifying a charset to load and then aborting it. ---------- response 1 03/02/76 16.32 cole langlab I second that... ---------- response 2 03/02/76 16.40 al mfl Either that, or leave "dwjunk" always condensed. ---------- note 108 new *list 03/02/76 14.44 alan m nuc Is there or will there be a -*list- command to print out the info from the new special editing page, accessible in the editor by DATA1? If there are no plans for such a command, I would like to be among the first to propose it. Alan ---------- response 1 03/02/76 16.00 koning csstaff Rather than having a new command to do that, why not change -*list info- to print both? ---------- note 110 firsterase 03/02/76 15.08 brant ames ' force firsterase' does not recognize the micro key. In one of my lessons I want to make sure the student can find certain letters of the Greek alphabet and knows how to use the MICRO key. A sample program which you can run is in the first response to this note. Is recognition of the MICRO key likely to be implemented for 'force firsterase'? George Brant ---------- response 1 03/02/76 15.09 brant ames unit write¬w next writes¬s helpop ¬w at 1607 write What is the symbol for omega? draw 1639;1640 arrow 1637 force firsterase answer ¬w no at 2807 write Press MICRO, then type w. endarrow helpop at 3107 write NEXT to continue unit ¬w at 2807 write To type an ¬w, press the MICRO key then press w. unit write¬s ---------- response 2 03/03/76 21.57 blomme s Seems reasonable; should be fixed on latest version. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 14.42 brant ames Thanks, George Brant ---------- note 112 rgnoteadd 03/02/76 15.18 berger mfl As long as one can now do a jumpout directly to a group notes file, will it be made possible to add the name of a group notes file to an "mrouter" index? ---------- response 1 03/02/76 16.46 woolley p Not until this becomes an announced feature. Repeat: do not depend on this feature working. ---------- note 114 ncircle 03/02/76 15.40 sutton phys It would be nice if ncircle could handle a negative radius. ---------- response 1 03/02/76 16.04 berger mfl What would you expect it to do? I presume you want a single point (degenerate circle) to be plotted? ---------- response 2 03/02/76 16.12 bowery comm no... a negative radius in a polar equation is the same as a positive radius only it plots 180¬0 out of phase. ---------- response 3 03/02/76 16.41 al mfl Does that make sutton 180¬0 out of phase. too? ---------- response 4 03/03/76 09.15 b sherwood s This should be done and will be done eventually. ---------- note 115 less crash 03/02/76 16.00 hecht ed A question about lesson "crash". At the present time, this lesson reports that there have been no prime-time interruptions this month. However, I also note that a 50 minute crash at 7:41 yesterday should have carried over until 8:31, which is prime time. Is the data on prime-time interruption, etc., based only on crashes which occur during ptime, and not on those which actually occur earlier but nevertheless effect ptime use? This seems a bit illogical--the data would be more realistic if ptime downtime were included, no matter when the crash began. Comments, please. ---------- response 1 03/02/76 16.11 golden s Read the data again. There was no crash, rather a 50 minute period of somewhat degraded service (longer than usual condense queues). That fact is included in the ; system time available. ---------- response 2 03/02/76 16.33 hecht ed I stand corrected. Thanks. ---------- response 3 03/02/76 16.35 avner s Also, there is a distinction between a true "crash" (an interruption of service that has begun) and a delay in start of service (for which we also have an example this month). A true crash has distinctly different sorts of problems and we don't want the two types of data to be mixed up. On the other hand, such delays must be indicated in the total; of time available. There is no single measure of system reliability that summarizes all problems without losing information so we provide several measures. Al Avner ---------- response 4 03/02/76 17.04 avner s An additional note--"crash" is public in order to insure that the data we record are an accurate representation of the service that users actually get. Comments, suggestions, or questions are very much appreciated, We aren't going to make any progress by ignoring or avoiding problems. Some of the reports are sort of cryptic because of space limitations so don't ever hesitate to ask! ---------- note 130 microyeeha 03/02/76 17.39 bowery comm With the new editor option for micro spec. it might be advisable for someone (the PSO staff?) to make up several standard edit micro's that would facilitate different types (levels) of editing and programming styles. (with much feed back from users of course) The reason I suggest this is because I sense that the number of TUTOR blocks used as microtables will double in the next month if some action isn't taken to standardize things. (reminisent of leslist, common etc.. editors) Also some action should be taken with regard to the microtable editor (in case none is planned already). ---------- response 1 03/02/76 19.07 d zweig iu Also, add the appropiate key aside the number so we can tell-at-a-glance what key something is 'under'. This is on the page that is accessed via LAB (to see everything) ---------- response 2 03/02/76 19.37 blomme s Some changes have been made (have you noticed that the COPY key works and that the function option displays key names rather than numbers?) and many more improvements have been made and have not yet been added to the system because of my negligence in looking them over carefully and checking them out. Sorry--maybe I'll take time out some time this week to get Bruce Parrello's mods in. ---------- response 3 03/02/76 20.22 fisher conn There is one system provided microtable in existance for editing... lesson 'microtable', micro block 'edit' (2-c).. Your helpful fishswine ---------- response 4 03/02/76 20.22 bowery comm have you looked at it? hahahaha ---------- response 5 03/03/76 09.07 berger mfl I'm surprised that it doesn't have the "break" command still in it! (though it does have "figure" and "line") ---------- response 6 03/03/76 10.00 jmk pso PSO is indeed planning a library of microtables, similar to the library of charsets, There is some preliminary work that needs to be done, for instance, a consistent naming procedure. Lesson "microtable" is being replaced by lesson "micros". As useful microtables, microtables needed for use with special charsets, etc. become available, we will include them in "micros", muchs as charsets with some universal appeal are now in lesson "charsets" (we are working on getting lesson "charsets" to be the only library lesson for charsets). We may also then be able to provide some help for using the charsets and microtables as well. ---------- note 132 tut.out.er 03/02/76 17.50 warrens uw size .75 at 2737 write PRESS NEXT to set each value, as usual. DATA to input a different bound. DATA and SHIFT, to finalize bounds. size 0 mode rewrite * *this code gave me an execution error when I attempted *to SS it. In other words, at the arrow, I ss8. *then pressed next. I then got TUTOR output buffer full *in lesson .service. *Thought you'ld want to know! Randy ---------- response 1 03/02/76 18.53 instructors1 af1 hey randy this is Robert Bates from Chanute Air Force Base in Illinois....remember me!..i used to page you i wentup to Madison one weekend but the bldg. was locked......the only way you can get in touch with me right now is through talkomatic,i dont have an author mode right now....im Cancer on talkomaic remember?....maybe ill talk to you sometime in the future....my name at the top of this note should be Robert Bates.Im from Lake Geneva remember?......talk to you in the future....probably when i get another author mode BYE.......... ---------- response 2 03/02/76 18.58 bowery comm bye..... ---------- response 3 03/02/76 19.04 frye mfl I believe this is a known error in "service" -- at least, if it isn't. it should be! A -showa- of more than ˇ¬n40 characters in size ¬= 0 produces the Tutor Output Buffer Overflow error... G. David Frye ---------- response 4 03/02/76 19.05 berger mfl What about the known error in "af1"? ---------- response 5 03/02/76 20.00 galcher uimatha What about the known error(s) in "mfl(u)"? ---------- response 6 03/03/76 09.08 berger mfl We don't know of any in nfl. Please tell us if you do! ---------- response 7 03/03/76 13.19 al mfl When do get the option to site restrict by name rather than course? ---------- note 144 trm cursor 03/02/76 20.08 fisher conn Something I noticed in term cursor tonight.... When you press "f" to change to fine grid, 'fine' is not written out on the screen.. coarse stays there... Just a minor error, which is aggravating.... fishswine ---------- response 1 03/02/76 21.45 white p The "coarse" is not indicating that you are in coarse mode, but rather is describing the number which follows it: "coarse = 1632" ---------- response 2 03/03/76 19.00 fisher conn That will teach me not to write a note when i'm asleep... Shouldn't it say which mode you are in, though? Might help when looking at fine lines... also... while using term cursor last night, i would have much appreciated a dot cursor like the one in SM... fishswine ---------- note 147 taskdesign 03/02/76 20.38 gottlieb uw task design For experimental purposes, would like to design moderately interesting task which is simulation of real word job for which subject receives monetary reinforcement [preferably not learning program or game]. Task duration: up activity but could also be run in its entirety. Experimenter would like to manipulate information as to subject's level of performance, therefore success on task should not be apparent to performer. Would appreciate any idea/suggestions via p. note. Thanks. ---------- note 149 toolongarg 03/02/76 23.08 hinton ssu I have a variable named "mad" , which is, so far as I can tell, 3 chars long. But every time I try to condense a line that goes "Ladies and gentlemen, on this ¬0a,mad¬1 occa- sion...", I get a "≤ *warning* variable name too long" message...also, get an "unreferenced variable name message for the same line, though "mad" resides in my define set as "n68". When I try DATaA1 to see "hidden characters", I get a whole bunch of 00000 codes, written under the word "ladies". WHY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????? I have retyped the line at least 6 times. Lesson "homework" defines in block a, code in block f, -unit four-. ndh p.s. yes, there actually is a word in the variable, put there by -storea-. ---------- response 1 03/02/76 23.17 white p Below is the code. taken directly from your lesson... at 810 Ladies and gentlemen, on this ¬oa,mad¬1 occasion, It is saying that the variable "Ladies and..." is a bit long to be the tag of a continued -at- command. Also, it is apparently undefined. ---------- response 2 03/02/76 23.19 hinton ssu Blurg. ¬oblush¬1. ndh ---------- note 152 use-edit 03/03/76 01.01 anderer ee Another from the 'wouldn't it be nice department': When you are editing a lesson that -use-es another, hitting, for example, 'U' from the block directory page would take you to the -use-d lesson if the change codes matched. Otherwise it would take you to the 'Press DATA to try....' page. This would be an improvement when you're editing... Rather than hitting BACK, typing the other lesson name, hitting next....Just hit 'U', and there you are. (And just think if it remembered what lesson you came from! Just shuttle back and forth...) Comments? dg ---------- response 1 03/03/76 08.01 michael english I like it. ---------- response 2 03/03/76 11.55 george martin ve Excellent idea. I am currently working on a revision of a lesson that requires editing in two lesson spaces. Your idea would eliminate much time spent typing on the author mode page. ---------- response 3 03/03/76 13.32 lombardo ed Great idea! Working on several lessons and trying to integrate them produces just that problem. dal ---------- response 4 03/03/76 17.38 clark lawyer A greed...might also be nice to implement that same type of feature for condense errors in the used lessons ---------- note 161 n1‎lesname 03/03/76 09.24 ruane ll382 Storing a lesson name in n1 then doing a jumpout q does not permit your to re-enter the lesson any more, but pressing stop1 does, as usual. Does the lesson name now reside in a different variable, or what? Thanks. ---------- response 1 03/03/76 10.50 k mast p This has never been an advertised feature, thus changes do not require notice. ---------- response 2 03/03/76 13.49 b0ggs biocc Would it be difficult to re-implement it? This "feature" was very nice when, for example, you have just dumped data from 40 datafiles, and now have to zero each one by hand... to live with this kludgey datafile machinery, we wrote a little program which maintains a list of all our datafiles. Then by simply entering that lesson, n1 would be stuffed with the next datafile on the list and a jumpout (blank) executed. A simple press of NEXT took you directly into the datafile. If you won't re-implement this, HOW ABOUT A WAY TO ZERO DATAFILES UNDER PROGRAM CONTROL! ---------- response 3 03/03/76 14.03 midden s About the first question, I got rid of this to fix some other problems arising from the way jumpout q's were handled. And yes, this was an unannounced feature, so you should not have been relying on it. Perhaps this zero's datafiles should be thought about though. ---------- response 4 03/03/76 16.03 putch arizona While we are on the subject of lesson names, why not a systems term that shows the name of the lesson your in? Such a term could be quite useful in determining the name of a lesson you have been jumped out to so that you could later enter the lesson directly. ---------- response 5 03/03/76 16.31 boggs biocc I know it was unannounced; the important phrase was "...to live with the kludgey datafile machinery..." Do you have any idea how many people would literally jump for joy if there were a way to remotely zero dfiles? or to find out how many blocks are used... or if the file was currently in use... or if datafiles could be extended via "accounts"... ---------- response 6 03/03/76 16.40 curly iu The system tries to keep lesson names a secret of sorts, silly as it may seem. That's why there isnt, and probably wont be a system term which does so. Myself, I think they shouldnt even TRY to do so or else should do a ultragood job of it....as it is, a large percentage of people can find out what lesson they are in via course records and/or site options. I think that all security of this sort should be left to the individual author. After all, they can easily restrict access. Even specify which lesson you have to come from to enter if they want. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 7 03/03/76 17.40 keith s matha Amen, Steve -- very useful to groups which fill up datafiles very quickly and must save (pack) important data on datasets and then reinitialize the datafiles, all of which could be done under program control. ---------- response 8 03/03/76 18.38 michael english (DITTO)ˆn ---------- note 162 gnotes 03/03/76 09.48 errol kka This question may already have been asked, but..... Is there any way to show a lesson from which a person has entered group notes? This is important to me in looking at student comments in group notes. ---------- response 1 03/03/76 09.56 woolley p No, but I think this may be a feature of student comments. See group notes file "scnotes" for details. ---------- note 165 lighting 03/03/76 10.32 dvm ee Under some lighting conditions, reflections from the terminal screen may be a nuisance. The general solution to this problem is to eliminate light sources which propagate at an angle of 45¬0 or less (to horiz.) A specific, ellegant solution for recessed flourescents is to use a diffusor which transmits light only (nearly) straight down (at least >45¬0 to horiz.). The billiard room of the Illini Union (UIUC) uses such diffusors. Thanks to Jim Payne (Foreign Languages), the sourse of these diffusors has been found: typical price are for 2'≠4' polystyrene--$22.; acrylic--$31. whereas common diffusors are $5, and $9. Cadillac Plastic Co., 1924 N. Paulina St., Chicago (60614). Also other states--let me know if you want addresses. ---------- response 1 03/03/76 16.09 buz phar a cheap 2≠4 which, placed under the back of the terminal, will prop the face to about 90¬0, also solves much of the glare problem. *buz* ---------- response 2 03/03/76 16.31 curly iu 4≠4's are steadier. ---------- response 3 03/03/76 20.45 fries ee What about doing something at CERL? The glare isn't too bad but after a couple of hours it can become disturbing. (I'm refering to terminals under the florecent lights in 165B.) A not too important suggestion but its something to do with some of the scrap wood laying around. EˇE ---------- response 4 03/04/76 08.24 rowlen mflu Another fairly inexpensive cure is for the user to use polarized sun-glasses. The plastic (?) screen over the plasma panel is supposedly polarized, and I have noticed that polarized glasses help. Theoretically, if one were to rotate the glasses to the proper position, nothing would show up on the screen at all (due to the properties of polarized materials). Jim ---------- response 5 03/04/76 10.33 nelson ced Isn't there a technical name for the 2≠4's or 4≠4's used to elevate the rear of the terminal? Can some knowledgable old timer give us this name so that we can enter something besides 4≠4 on our purchase requisition? Thanks. ---------- note 167 X-assembl 03/03/76 11.37 charlie browne mtc Are there any cross-assembler routines for running a Fortran or Basic or Algol program on PLATO? ---------- response 1 03/03/76 12.40 friedman csa There are some compilers (not cross-assemblers) written in Tutor for running small programs on Plato. It is not generally possible, however, to access the CDC compilers for this computer; in other words, the only thing you can execute on this machine is a Plato lesson.↓ If you're interested, try (e.g.) lesson cursedit (a FORTAN compiler), or one of the trw-series compilers such as pl1comp, fortcomp, basiccomp. However, please note that the trw compilers use high TIPS, and are currently being revised in an effort to lower their TIPS and get rid of some known bugs.↓ If anyone has any real cross-compilers (which would compile object code for some other computer), I don't know about them. ---------- response 2 03/03/76 12.51 dave infe1 I'd be really happy to know about any ALGOL on this system. dave/infe ---------- response 3 03/05/76 15.41 geyer css There is one lesson in algol on the system but it is only partly completed. It is called algol1 and I would like any help I can get to write it. If you would like to help me write it or are interested in any way send me a pnote (geyer/css). steve ---------- note 172 -term ecs- 03/03/76 13.02 putch arizona This has probably been suggested before, but how about a system -term- that displays the current values of mallot and muse? Such a -term- (-term ecs- I suppose) would be a great boon in large notefiles(cscomments is a good example, it takes more than 10,000 words,) where the threat of being suddenly backed out toward the end of a long note is quite real(and annoying.) I am aware that the authors of those files could install such a term themselves, but they are not doing it. Also, -term ecs- could be of immeasurable benefit in a lesson where it is difficult find where you were when you left. Thirdly, the complaint is often heard that game players ( at sites where they are allowed) are inconsiderate in regard to how much ecs is available. A -term ecs- would allow them to check how much they are using without messing up their score or position in the game. ---------- response 1 03/03/76 14.28 s zweig iusn System term -ecs- would be nice. But most game players don't give a dawn about ECS at all. We're sitting here now at site 'network' with no ECS and somebody somewhere in the site is zapping Klingons. Ʃteve ---------- response 2 03/03/76 15.26 putch arizona Yes, but the inference that game players "don't give a damn" about ECS is based primarily on the observation of how they act in regard to it. Such are observations have been made, necessarily, under conditions where a game player must give up his position in the game just to find out if there _is_ an ECS crunch. It is rather inconceivable that any game player, no matter how ECS conscious heShe is, would be inclined to give up his/her position in the game without. some indication that a shortage actually exists. Therefore, one cannot make an accurate prediction as to how a game player would act if he/she had something like -term ecs- to keep him/her informed of shortages that arise. Also, I wish to emphasize that the effect on game play- ing is only one of the benefits that I mentioned. Too often -cont- ---------- response 3 03/03/76 15.32 putch arizona in Notes there will be numerous responses to a note that deal solely with one minor point, ignoring what the author was really trying to get across(now I suppose a discussion will arise over what should be in a response, completely forget- ting about -term ecs-.) ---------- response 4 03/03/76 17.28 koning csstaff As suggested before, making mallot and muse accesible in *term* calc would do the trick, albeit at the expense of having to type a little more. ---------- response 5 03/03/76 17.43 clark lawyer There have been so many notes about adding this feature, I wonder if this time it might be implemented in some form. How about it systems? This suggestion has recieved good comments from authors for close to a year now...! ---------- note 175 *list varn 03/03/76 13.38 friedman csa I have been trying to print a dataset on the Varian Printer, using -*list special- or -*list dataset,1,,s- (which are supposed to be the same). First, it didn't work...I just gct nothing beyond block 1a. Now, the print requestor says this is temporarily unavailable. Could someone in systems please tell me about this problem, or when it will be fixed, or where it is on someone's priority list? It's pretty important to me.↓ Thanks in advance. ---------- response 1 03/03/76 15.01 loitz acoustic The varian print routine can not handle datasets. The print request lesson was recently modified to check for datasets and not let you enter such requests. ---------- response 2 03/03/76 16.01 friedman csa According to aids and to Phil Mast, the Varian routine ought to be able to handle anything the regular print routine can.↓ I'm looking for a system response, please. ---------- response 3 03/03/76 16.35 frye mfl "loitz/acoustic" is "loitz/o"'s alter-ego, I'm told. He probably knows about the Varian... ---------- response 4 03/03/76 17.12 kawell o It is true, the software SHOULD handle datasets, but there seems to be a bug somewhere. I have looked at it but I haven't been able to find the trouble yet. In the meantime, I put the message in the print request lesson so that people wouldn't waste their time requesting dataset Varian prints. I _am_ working on it, and I have asked Doug Brown for some help, so it should be fixed soon. Sorry about the problems. Len ---------- response 5 03/04/76 11.19 friedman csa Thanks for a definitive answer, Len. I'm sure you can see that it's pretty frustrating to need a feature which is announced as working, find it doesn't work, and not have any idea whether it's being actively worked on. Glad to hear you're working on it. ---------- note 182 paren bias 03/03/76 15.09 bowery comm In a frequency count of 6 bit internal codes from various notes files (for some esoteric reasons) I noticed that there were 55 right parens and 45 left parens...... This indicates 3 things to me: 1) People on PLATO don't have a very good sense of symetry. 2) The condensor should have more direct indications of unbalanced parens. (ie: "unbalanced paren you idiot") 3) The age old conspiracy againts anything left-handed is being perpetuated on PLATO. Some action should be taken! Systems? ---------- response 1 03/03/76 15.19 ld francis mtc re: your third hypothesis this bias is probably reversed for languages written (1 right to left i propose all left-handed authors begin using the (2 form exemplified here ---------- response 2 03/03/76 16.04 friedman csa From NOTES files?↓ Who said notes files SHOULD have balanced parens?↓ Both the main note and the 1st response are good examples of why.↓ Or are you just pulling our legs (and me being dense)?... ---------- response 3 03/03/76 16.26 curly iu in a frequency count of note ¬$182, by bowery/comm, it seems there were 10 words beginning with a capital letter, while there were only 3 words ending with one. we therefore conclude that this author is suffering from a mild form of platotypis and should refrain from typing more than 5 hours per day for the next week. a platonic doctor report curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly p.s. using an abundance of unmatched parens will aid in recovery, with the side affect of programming headaches. unfortunately, this is unadvoidable. spelling correctly will also help the authors mental condition, if not his physical condition. ---------- response 4 03/03/76 16.32 frye mfl If it'll make ya feel any better, Jim, use "]" on the right, and stick with "(" for the left -- the condenser doesn't know the difference between parenthesis, brace, and bracket... so stick in a stray "¬[" every once in a while for esthetic reasons. G. David Frye ---------- response 5 03/03/76 16.43 bowery comm The first reasonable suggestion. Thanx Dave. ---------- response 6 03/03/76 16.46 jones mcl (parenthetic note: ((some lisp systems) allow (a single (right bracket)) (to terminate) ((any number of) (left parentheses] (¬W ) (so there?) ---------- response 7 03/08/76 10.25 hagerman ames :elpoep dednah-tfel rof !yaw siht etirW noruaS ---------- note 183 baseallot 03/03/76 15.16 lawrence itv With the relatively new feature in 'E' that shows the base allotment of ecs, I wonder if it would be possible for us to have a system defined variable that would show it? Something along the lines of mallot and muse. It would sure be helpful! Jim ---------- response 1 03/03/76 15.39 berger mfl Please! It would be a great help for routers, etc. ---------- response 2 03/03/76 16.38 daleske amesrad Ummmmmm: mecs? nawww mbase? nope mbasecs? John ---------- response 3 03/04/76 09.39 weaver matha I cast my vote for ballot. ---------- response 4 03/04/76 15.06 roper siu Two votes for ballot. ---------- response 5 03/05/76 11.19 artman uimatha As has been said before, this is not a democracy, not because it is an autocracy, but rather because no one has bothered to print up the ballots. (Ugh!!) eric artman ---------- note 194 LISP 03/03/76 16.27 wagle iu I was told that there was a LISP interpreter somewhere on this system... who do I ask to use it, or where do I find it?? thanx in advance! periagl ---------- response 1 03/03/76 16.34 marty smith mtc lesson -lispcomp-? ---------- response 2 03/04/76 11.25 friedman csa Lesson -lispcomp- is a lisp compiler, one of the trw group of compilers. This group is presently undergoing revision to try to make them eat less CPU power (i.e., lower theor TIPS), so they may not function perfectly all the time right now. However, you're welcome to use it.↓ Incidentally, Smith, I don't point people to your lessons without your permission; I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 13.03 marty smith mtc sorry. ---------- note 204 seminar 03/03/76 16.54 golden s The Fernand Marty seminar which was announced earlier has been postponed and will be rescheduled. ---------- note 206 charsets 03/03/76 17.12 celia pso Changes to the libraries of character sets, linesets, and micros: The PSO author group will now be maintaining a library of linesets in lesson "linesets". We'll also be developing a library of micro tables in file "micros". Table "standard" in file "micros" is the stand- ard default micro table. (The default micro table was formerly lesson "microtable", block "standard".) The alphabets library which was formerly scattered among "charsetx", "charsets", and "charsett" is now in file "charsets". This means that for the present, there are some pairs of character sets in "charsets" which differ ---------- response 1 03/03/76 17.14 celia pso only in their names. (Eg: charset "rick" is a copy of charset "standard".) The duplicate character sets will be destroyed in two weeks. There is a table of corres- pondences of old and new names in block 7-a of "charsets". A system conversion will be run, but if you can make the necessary changes yourself to your lessons, please do so. We hope the inconvenience of the changes will be out- weighed by the ease of use of a single alphabet character set library. ---------- response 2 03/03/76 17.18 white p Thanks Celia. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 14.05 celia pso For reference, here is a list of the old names and new names of the duplicates. old name new name demo rounded bohn italics new internal rick standard lang larger uni print2 romital italics2 script2 script ---------- response 4 03/05/76 16.23 hinton ssu Thank you very much. This will make finding things much easier. ndh ---------- note 216 *notice* 03/03/76 21.25 stewart arizona FLASH!!! HOT OFF THE PRESS!!! Tucson, Arizona - Today a major whitewash has been reported. Rumors have it that it involved the whole state! Information from a high source, revealed today that snow, yes snow has been falling in the sunshine state. A witness claimed that a funny, white substance resembling cotton, but much colder has completely covered the ground. After a few inches had gathered on the ground, it had strange effects on the inhabitants. They started to pick up pieces of this substance and throw it at each other!!! The national guard has been called in and the president has declared Arizona a disaster area. More information will be brought to you as we receive it. MPS Wire Service ---------- response 1 03/04/76 00.02 schramm cs317 might have been the Tibetans. Better check that guano gap for possible new developments.... ---------- response 2 03/04/76 08.05 ostuni iu That's...'_P_resident'. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 09.34 daleske amesrad He might have meant the '_p_resident' of the university or of the state or something and not THE '_P_resident'.... (heh heh) John ---------- note 218 R mode 03/03/76 22.33 lombardo ed Why is it that REPLACE MODE is set up to prevent deletion of lines of code? I realize that DELETE is designed for that specific purpose, but when revising several lines of code it is most annoying to have to revise one or two, back out, move the lines forward to the proper line, request deletion, and press next. Wouldn't it be far simpler to just be able to delete via REPLACE by replacing the unwanted code with nothing, then backing out? It is particularly annoying when the offensive line is surrounded by lines that need only slight alteration. At least it is a pain to have to go back later and pick out the lines one by one for deletion. ---------- response 1 03/03/76 23.36 rick mflu In fact, the way you suggest is the way it used to work. It was later set up so that you couldn't accidentally delete a line by merely pressing NEXT at the replace arrow. Especially when keypresses are slow, it could be disastrous to have a blank line delete what used to be there: if you think the system hasn't gotten your last NEXT keypress and you hit NEXT again, to find that it was just sluggish; or if you were to accidentally hit EDIT just before pressing NEXT.. It's really MUCH better this way. (By the way, why not just replace those unwanted lines with a * if it's so much trouble to go back and delete them?) ---------- response 2 03/03/76 23.57 sellers arizona R used to delete lines of code. It was changed because the number of times that lines of code were lost due to the accidently hitting of the -next- key. There was a general note (not now accessible) to this affect about 2 years ago. There were 20 responses in favor of the non-deleteing of lines of code in this way. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 00.14 lombardo ed yes, I guess I do seem to vaguely remember the controversy, and with a little thought on the subject I seem to also remember deleting lines of code accidently, hmmm, all things considered I guess the disadvantages are really not such a disadvantage after all. dal ---------- response 4 03/04/76 00.35 fries ee I agree that deletion from replace mode by pressing NEXT is undesirable, but it would make more sence to me to have HELP1 (pressed on an empty line from replace mode) delete the line. This would be consistant with the general use of HELP1 for deletions. It's being a little lazy but a lot of things are done on the system for the sake of efficiency. EˇE ---------- response 5 03/04/76 07.57 maggs law As one who lost a lot of lines under the old system, I would vote strongly against going back there. However, the HELP1 idea in the last note would seem to be fairly safe. ---------- response 6 03/04/76 10.48 frye mfl Besides, the first argument is full of holes anyway! Under the old method, pressing NEXT "deleted" the line in that the text was gone -- you still had to go back and "D" those lines. ---------- response 7 03/04/76 11.32 friedman csa As Frye points out, R never allowed you to delete a line, it only replaced it with a blank line. You can still do that by typing one space then hitting NEXT. Or, if the line is already a blank line and you want to go on to the next line, hitting space or COPY or COPY1 then NEXT will go on down.↓ Unless the HELP1 suggestion is implemented, to really delete a line (and not just blank it), let's PLEASE leave it alone! ---------- note 224 ra¬erities 03/04/76 02.07 d williams unidel Some problems are so rare that, once reported, they'll be fixed before coming up a second time--so it seems a waste to use up a Public Note. Are there other ways of reporting such things? For example: My homemade accent mark works fine with the new -getword- command, unless the accent ENDS a word, in which case the trailing MICRO and FONT are ignored. (Homemade accent marks are stored in the micro table like this: FONT, MICRO, o, MICRO, FONT.) ¬↑ˇ--Dan ---------- response 1 03/04/76 08.22 avner s If you consider these notes as documentation of an evolutionary process (of adapting hardware and software to humans), then any note leading to a change or indicating possible problems is worth entry. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 11.32 tenczar s perhaps there is no error...but rather...when a FONT (or other non-visible character) precedes or follows a word, you get into a quandry...that word can "look" the same to the human user yet be produced in many ways..e.g, FONTwordFONT FONT wordFONT FONTword FONT FONT word FONT FONT FONT FONT word FONTFONTFONT....etc the way the answer machinery is just starting to handle this quagmire, is to eliminate the FONT before and after words but not within words from the actual character string while keeping a flag telling what FONT the word is in. The problems due to the great freedom/quantity of character set options is perhaps best illustrated by: answer FONTword1 word2 etc $$ the author's answer is ¬ in some language requiring an alternalte font then, cont.next.. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 11.40 tenczar s cont. answer FONTword1 word2 etc...(answer in alternate font) then the student puts in an answer of: "FONTword2 word1..etc" if the before-after FONT was attached to WORDS, then there would be no way to judge a simple word mixup...for one wouldn't be able to identify that "FONTword2" is really the same word as the author's "word2"... If you test the answer machinery, you will see that it handles the matter successfully in a human sense. Indeed, think of the possibilities with synonyms: answer (FONTword1a,word1b) word2 ..etc in summary, this ain't an easy thing to understand, but, FONTs "outside" of words gotta be handled in a peculiar way else the human situation is not handled. ---------- response 4 03/04/76 13.36 tenczar s however, maybe on the next go around (don't hold your breath)...the answer judging machinery should keep track of any FONT changes within a word and then take a look at the "ending" character and try to keep the font even within a word...this would then handle your case by taking along an ending FONT as part of the word ... that would probably do the human thing since a FONT change within a word is probably only doing some fancy accenting ---------- response 5 03/04/76 17.56 d williams unidel Yes, your last suggestion is the sort of thing that I thought already existed. (As you say, there always might turn up ¬)¬)something¬)¬) to prevent it from being logical.) Thanks for advice re the holding of one's breath. (I'll do without -getword-.) ¬↑ˇ--Dan ---------- response 6 03/05/76 10.18 judy pso There remains the possibility which Tenczar is working so hard to eliminate.... that is putd /font-micro-o-micro-font/zz/ and writing your answer: answer accented areazz instead of answer accented area≤ˆ↑≠ ---------- note 225 stop font 03/04/76 02.29 koning csstaff It seems that pressing STOP while in altfont puts the terminal back into normal font, but the rest of Plato is not aware of that... If you press erase it erases as appropriate for the altfont characters, and a -storea- gives the alfont form. ---------- response 1 03/04/76 02.42 blomme s Try to find some other way to do what you have to do; there are numerous problems with the handling of altfont (and a number of us would like just to eliminate it altogether eventually because of the mess it creates). ---------- response 2 03/04/76 08.58 nate iumusic Question: Was that last response a prediction of things to come, or just wishful thinking on the system's part (I sincerely hope it was the latter)? Nate ---------- response 3 03/04/76 09.22 judy pso Once-upon-a-time, there were instances where there really seemed no choice but to use -altfont-. As the system has gotten more flexible, and especially as the -answer- handling has improved, the need for -altfont- has decreased (vanished?). I'm curious to know how -altfont- is useful to you now. I confess, I have a lesson that still uses -altfont-, but I believe it can be changed when I get around to it. ---------- response 4 03/04/76 09.43 daleske amesrad One of the major uses in the case of a single gigantic writec having a bunch of BIGchars (as generated in lesson -bigchar-), These characters are formed with a series of supers and subs (or if only 2≠2, they may be formed by putting one line of chars under the other). By having the altfont before the writec turn on font and turn it off after, one may edit these chars in normal font, by- passing the storage of quite a few shift-fonts to turn on and off the access to the terminal's font memory. (It also cuts down on having to re-edit those icky lines) John ---------- response 5 03/04/76 10.00 guerra uimc I have a graph that displays a student's progress over a period of time by means of a "broken bar graph". The horizontal on the graph represents a period of time, such that each course-grid column represents a week, and the verical is a list of the courses the student is taking. Along side of each course listed is a "broken" bar, such that for any given week in the time range, if the student completed o units in that week, a blank appears; if the student completed 1 unit in that week, a thin vertical bar (sort of like this "¬I") appears; if the student completed 2 units in that week, a slightly thicker bar appears; if the student completed 3 units or more, an even thicker bar (almost a full character) appears in the corresponding grid along the graph. I store the data for the graph in a table that is divided into 3-bit segments, so that one segment corresponds to each week in the time range. ---------- response 6 03/04/76 10.04 p cohen med I don't see how one can write any type of -show- command in alternate font without the -altfont- command! --paul ---------- response 7 03/04/76 10.15 guerra uimc Since the data for each course begins on a full-word boundary, when I have to display the graph for one of the courses, I just do a -showo- in altfont of the words containing the unit completion data for the course, A charset is loaded into the terminal such that altfont"o" is blank, altfont"1" is the thin bar, altfont"2" is the intermediate bar, and altfonts"3"-"7" contain the thickest bar. This is a very fast and efficient way to plot this graph. The only alternative would be to plot each line as a -writec- in a -doto- loop, which would make the graph take FOREVER to plot. Therefore, I beseech thee not to take away the -altfont- feature. I would have to rewrite 4 or 5 very complicated programs if this command was withdrawn, and it would down- grade their speed of execution drastically. ---------- response 8 03/04/76 11.39 friedman csa I use -altfont- in two places: one where I could get along without it, one where it's needed. The latter is a -show- that must come out in altfont. The former is a case where, for compact storage of long -write-s, the terminal is loaded with a charset that has upper case letters in the lower case slots. Thus, by putting the terminal in altfont, I can use a -write- of lower case letters and get upper case on the terminal, thus saving the storage of a lot of 070 shift codes without the need for a FONT at the beginning of every line. ---------- response 9 03/04/76 11.46 tenczar s can't the problem with altfont-show be handled by: write FONT¬os,n1¬1 $$ ? ---------- response 10 03/04/76 13.27 parrello uimatha Unfortunately, ACCESS '0' in alternate font is an accent mark, and thus a valid display character, instead of an embed symbol. Thus if things were changed so that that particular construct worked, several quarters would have a whole lot of rewriting to do. ---------- response 11 03/04/76 13.39 nate iumusic I have a code-generator which generates musical notes. It makes it M_UCH↑_ simpler to have a command reading altfont on and then proceed with normal font outputting (saves having to inject the font code all the time, as I plot one character, and have to immediately change screen coordinates). Also, for the person using the generator, it makes it much more convenient if he can actually see what keys are being used for the characters without having to look at the charset all the time (since he's obviously stuck with either copying my charset or using mine) (also makes it easier to reorder the keys in his copy of the generated code). PLEASE. I NEED ALTFONT! Nate ---------- response 12 03/04/76 13.44 guerra uimc Oh! You mean: write ≥¬00,n1¬1≥ $$! Seriously: For one thing, I didn't know you could do that (i.e. that a "fonted" write statement would also "font" any embedded shows therein). Knowing that , I guess I could live without the altfont command, but I still see two problems with Paul Tenczar's suggestion: I thought "embedded" shows used more CPU and required more "binary" length than separate show commands; admittedly, it's a rather small loss of efficiency, but some of us like to save every TIP we can. Secondly, and more importantly, there is a substantial loss of readability, as illustrated above, which would result from such a solution. If you do decide to withdraw the -altfont-command, would it be possible to provide something like this: write ¬0font¬1¬00,n1¬1 $$, which would condense into a "font" code, but would plot normally in the editor? ---------- response 13 03/04/76 15.11 roper siu I could probably get along without altfont in starwar, but it would be a real pain. Please don't take altfont away. Quetzal ---------- response 14 03/04/76 17.41 blomme s The main point was that altfont simply does not function correctly in many cases and is rather difficult and inconvenient to fix at the system level. The intro- duction of the force font has provided another (much, much more manageable way) to handle answers; there may remain some inconvenience or real problem in doing various show commands in other than the regular font--if so, precise info on things that cannot be done in any other way or suggestions of alternatives would be appreciated. As I indicated, some of us feel that this approach may now have outlived its usefulness (in terms of the effort required to fix it to handle special cases and problems that keep coming up due to additions/improvements to the system). No one has any intentions of making anything impossible that is now possible seemingly due to the existence of altfont. ---------- response 15 03/05/76 10.19 ahasic med How about keeping altfont and having it turned off by arrows and ends of units. Would that solve everybodys problems? ---------- response 16 03/05/76 10.42 parrello uimatha No. That would not solve the TERM 'talk' problem. Chuck, embeds do NOT work if preceded by a font character. the font turns embed symbols into accent marks (with autobackspacing and all). ---------- response 17 03/05/76 15.41 guerra uimc No wonder I hadn't heard about it before... ---------- response 18 03/08/76 17.57 fritz amesrad I think the crux of this controversy lies in the desire to write nice, fast, readable code, no? Example: I have a lesson which plots LARGE numbers of altfont characters (yes, it's bigchar...). The -altfont- allows me to set the terminal into altfont, plot all my chars, and take it out again. This saves up to 1536 FONT's, w/ associated memory-switching. My display would be CONSIDERABLY slowed if -altfont- were taken away, asnd I'm sure there are others who would suffer similarly, (17 secs. extra for FONT transmission... UGH!) _Please_ leave -altfont-. ---------- note 232 tapecontes 03/04/76 08.59 fay o REMINDER: the fantabolous, glamorous, prestigious "PLATO DOWN TAPES DISPLAY CONTEST" is drawing to a close. You have until 5 pm Friday, March 5 to put your entry into lesson "tapentry" (in the author mode). Tim ---------- note 233 Chess 03/04/76 09.04 olson ced A new column is being started in newsreports. Its called, The World of Chess and will deal with Chess from a news point of view and not, long , boring analysis of games. If you have an item you'd like included, please leave me a pnote, ( olson/ced ) Thanks and hope you enjoy the column. DˇO ---------- response 1 03/04/76 10.43 frye mfl "...Doesn't this belong in HELP Notes?..." just thought I'd be the first to say it.... ---------- note 235 audio 03/04/76 09.29 jim g reading Would users of CERL and/or EIS audio devices please send me a pnote so that we can establish communication on some common problems. There is _no_ need for anyone to respond to this note and I would appreciate if they wouldn't so that I can delete it later. ---------- note 239 randu info 03/04/76 09.51 parker arizona I need to some information in the system random number generator that is invoked by the -randu- command. I am interested in the quality of "randomness" the generator has. Also, how are the numbers generated and the generator seeded? Thanks for the information. Mike Parker ---------- response 1 03/04/76 10.41 frye mfl The random number generator uses the current value of *clock*, among other things, as a "seed" -- you can't duplicate a sequence of -randu- random numbers...I don't know the exact method of obtaining the number, though. As for randomness, well...they always seemed pretty random to me, but I have heard reports about their being strongly correlated as a set of ordered triples. I wouldn't worry about it. G. David Frye p.s: there was some "talk" a white back about a "seedable" random number generator for the system -- it seems to have died down, unfortunately. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 11.11 white p It uses the following multiplicative congruential scheme-- x(i+1) = x(i) * 2 0000 00038 (mod 2**48) The seed, x(0), is set by the *clock* when the system is loaded. The seed is shared by all users of all the random number commands. This method of generation has been tested and passes the standard chi square frequency and serial correlation tests. ---------- response 3 03/05/76 13.22 miller nrc 03/05/76 13:15 miller nrc Might I suggest the use of two generators in combination? One would create a table of random nos. and the second would pick randomly (randp) from this table....This seems to work well although it may use too much space. Jay ---------- note 242 ***** 03/04/76 10.08 rick mfl An interesting feature of TERM calc (a similar error was spotted in the "desk calculator" a little while back): try TERM calc and type i e↑ˆ32↑ˇ -- after 5 to 10 times of evaluating this expression, you should find that * most of the time, it shows an exponential figure for the numerical value, out * sometimes is shows ***** or the numerical value, and * sometimes it erases ***** after having shown a number or it erases a number /ftir having shown ***** ---------- response 1 03/04/76 14.14 rader s I can't duplicate your result (just tried), but will look for these peculiar quirks. Thanks. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 14.38 heckman css I got it too, but it took many tries. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 19.01 hecht ed I got it twice in 18 tries. ---------- response 4 03/04/76 19.29 al mfl Something like this was reported in notes a while back. It seemes that there is an elusive bug in the -show- command. When you get the "****" result, the octal is still correct. This also works with "D" from the author mode page where the integer display sometimes becomes stars. ---------- note 243 tuch group 03/04/76 10.12 j wilson unidel Is it planned for the -group- and -pause- commands to allow the specification of touch areas as keys the way the -keytype- command now does? ---------- response 1 03/04/76 17.45 blomme s Some of us are interested in this area, but there are some questions/problems due to table space required. We would like to provide the capability of defining both touch and external groups; sorry, no estimate as to when such a capability might be implemented. ---------- response 2 03/05/76 09.04 j wilson unidel Thanks for the explanation. It is very liveable as is, even though it seemed a bit inconsistent at first. ---------- note 252 termtalk 03/04/76 11.26 berger mflu When I erase a line in TERM talk or monitor mode, I lose 5-10 characters of the next line I type. This was not the case a few weeks ago. ---------- response 1 03/08/76 18.01 fritz amesrad And it's much worse if you hit LAB. ---------- note 255 editor bug 03/04/76 11.32 rick mfl A bug in the editor: Pressing DATA when in insert mode doesn't take you to replace mode. ---------- response 1 03/04/76 11.39 clark lawyer It worked for me...if you press DATA when you are inserting at the end of a block, you are not switched to replace mode because there is nothing to replace.. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 12.30 rick mfl (¬)sigh¬)) I checked this out at various places in the block before putting the note in. Now, of course, it works correctly.. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 15.08 fries ee I tryed it out and it worked for me too. But this feature is not in help pages accesed from the editor. Where is one supposed to find out about these options? EˇE ---------- response 4 03/04/76 15.12 darlene pso The feature of DATA switching you from insert to replace and the reverse is in the editor help pages (3) and is included in both the insert and replace descriptions. ---------- response 5 03/04/76 20.00 fries ee oops...¬0s,blush¬1... Sorry, dont suppose you'll buy I didnt see it because of glare on the screen? EˇE ---------- note 260 nrecords 03/04/76 12.09 b sherwood s We hope to change the course records editor within a few days to a new format. You can try it out now by entering lesson "nrecords". Experiment by editing some course you don't care much about, since there may be some bugs yet. Notes: don't exit from nrecords by shift-STOP, because it doesn't handle that key quite the way it will when nrecords becomes records. Also realize that you will be able to enter by just typing the course name once nrecords is the regular records editor, so the initial page asking for a course would not normally be seen. ---------- response 1 03/04/76 12.17 lieber m "First few letters will do".... GREAT! ---------- response 2 03/04/76 12.46 jim g reading I question if the option to "see who is RUNNING" belongs under roster operations. I guess it doesn't fit any of the other 3 first page categories either. Isn't it more of a global operation on a course? ---------- response 3 03/04/76 13.08 fay o One of the very first things I noticed, Bruce, is that "nrecords" has the same annoying tendency to bump you to the "last edited by..." page at places one wouldn't expect it to do so. My feeling is that one should _only_ see this when first signing in to the records. (The specific case is BACH from the curriculum designer.) ---------- response 4 03/04/76 13.27 hecht ed One possible bug--I tested, nrecords" on a course which was not set up to receive pnotes. After selecting the option of seeing pnotes records, I received the usual "This course is not set up etc." message, but was then returned to "records" (the old version) rather than "nrecords". ---------- response 5 03/04/76 13.55 b sherwood s Several people have noticed that nrecords does not permit changing user type once the record has been created. This is to prevent certain kinds of security problems that have been noted by many people. You will also notice that you cannot change the spelling of an author or instructor name, for related reasons. One person suggested it would be less confusing for novices if "student" were the default record type. You will find using nrecords that you can specify all kinds of options for authors and instructors. including specifying that only students can be created. ---------- response 6 03/04/76 14.08 celia pso I think the layout of the pages is lovely to look at and easy to understand. (How's that for alliteration? I didn't even plan it!) ---------- response 7 03/04/76 14.17 kelso lawyer I was unable to find a list of the names in the roster like the one that now exists as option 1 (?) in course records. Has this feature been removed? I always found it useful to be able to see all of the names... ---------- response 8 03/04/76 14.17 friedman csa A few comments:↓ 1) When entering security codes, both for the course itself and for individuals, the code is asked for only once. It should be requested twice to insure that it is in fact typed in correctly, Transmission errors could garble it, and not be detected; for the course code, this would be especially bad news.↓ 2) When looking at an individual record, if SPECIAL options are selected, and an individual special option then chosen (such as examine variables), return from examining variables is not to the page on which that option was chosen, but one page further back.↓ 3) I don't think not being able to change a user type is too bad, though I suspect there are some who really want this ability.↓ (more) ---------- response 9 03/04/76 14.22 friedman csa I really do object, though, not being able to change the name on an author/instructor signon. I suppose this was put in because of the receit exchange of notes on the subject of pnote privacy; I still object. One does wish from time to time to change a author's signon name without losing all data about hours of system, etc.; witness last year the time some system recomendations were made by the User's Committee about selection of signon names, and some people did in fact change their signons. Besides, this doesn't provide pnote privacy. A course director could still destroy the signon, create a new one, and access the pnotes that way. What does this protect? ---------- response 10 03/04/76 14.34 b sherwood s The pnotes problem will disappear when nrecords¬Drecords. Yes, we should change the security code and password type-ins to ask twice. Keep forgetting to do that. There are some real problems getting rid of the "last edited by" that comes up at nny times, but it would be nice. On the list. There are some subtle security problems associated with name changes. I for one am site unwilling to preserve some "hours on" info (of dubious information content) in return for lessened security. ---------- response 11 03/04/76 15.04 michael english You can always copy a record into another name, then destroy the first, to get name-change effect without losing info. ---------- response 12 03/04/76 15.21 ld francis mtc i noticed that all new record; created have the data collection main option "A" turned ON. that seems useful for students but a pain for author records. how 'bout initializing author records (instructors?) to "OFF"? also how about offering the student statistics package available in "course" to people who choose that option? Its selection feature is useful, but the lesson is not widely known. ---------- response 13 03/04/76 15.22 curly iu As Gary said, one can always copy a record to preserve its statistics. Which makes the inability in change spellings silly, unless the ability to copy author and instructor records is also deleted. How does this do a better of protecting accounts, pnotes, and anything else the signons security code matches? Also, when entering 'mrouhr' as the router in the course, one is immediately jumped to be password page, with no change to enter the name of instructor file. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 14 03/04/76 15.30 ld francis mtc however---if a "copied" record were so indicated "this record has been copied by xxxx on yyyyyy" security leaks could be detected, tho not prevented. another point: on the "curriculum options for a student" page, there is an asterisk in the upper right hand corner, i couldnt find what it signifies. ---------- response 15 03/04/76 15.40 ld francis mtc on the "students running page:" a) i can only get one page of students to plot--- -NEXT- does not bring up the second screenful. another key? b) is it painful on that page to give the lesson the author is working in rather than the unit of the editor? not absolutely needed, but nice. ---------- response 16 03/04/76 15.52 michael english I do not understand the full implications of being able to limit what options an AUTHOR can do in the course. Could you discuss this a little, Bruce? ---------- response 17 03/04/76 16.09 dave pcp Try inspecting a course, and then entering the change code via DATA1.....it leaves you inspect...... although you can wipe out the code so that it throws you back to the original course security code page. dave ---------- response 18 03/04/76 18.37 d zweig iu Something I'd like to see altered is the process of viewing student variables. After looking at variables 1¬D15, could 16¬D30 simply "rewrite" over 1¬D15 ala leslists? This would save the rewrite time of the extra info. Something like NEXT or NEXT1 could do this. Using this method, suppose one would not be able to alter the format of to displayed variables, that is, include, say, alpha, in the next sweep. ---------- response 19 03/04/76 18.50 loitz o Just in case you haven't noticed...... The third page of author special options overwrites the page markings at the bottom of the page. Question: Is there a way author special options also could be templated? ---------- response 20 03/04/76 19.35 al mfl It is interesting to note that what used to take 3 keypresses in the old editor new takes 15 or so. ---------- response 21 03/04/76 19.40 b sherwood s I would be interested to know what option now takes 15 rather than 3 keypresses! I don't understand the comment about overwriting problems on the 3rd page of special options. It is intended to be able to template the options, tho that isn't in at present. Re copying records: I do intend to blank passwords and security codes when copying author and instructor records... ---------- response 22 03/04/76 19.57 marty smin mtc about the overwriting, he means that option "m", "set author/instructor options' overwrites "Page 3 of 3. Press NEXT to go on", leaving "Page yes(no) m set author/instructor options" ---------- response 23 03/04/76 21.09 curly iu (1) How about bringing back the change-a-name option for authors ¬+ instructors and for securitys sake, blank the security codes whenever the name's changed. What more do you want? (2) Entering 'mrouter' on the data page still doesnt work properly. (3) The 'see who's running' option really should be on the first page, seeing how often it's used. (4) None of the 'special options' return to the proper subindex. They all return to the main one. This can be irritating. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 24 03/04/76 21.21 curly iu (5) Also, the wording 'INSPECT personal notes file' is misleading. It should include the fact that deletion of notes is also possible. e.g, 'INSPECT and delete notes in notes file' or something. (6) Shouldnt there also be a purely inspect mode for the p-notes file. I realize it hasnt been written yet, but I'm sure it's a trivial tass. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 25 03/05/76 02.45 koning csstaff I just created a multiple record. When inspecting the record. it shows for option ¬$$: choose allowable multiple OPTIONS. It seems to be mistaking the record for an author or instructor record at this point. Secondly: when seeing who is running, it displays the usual 3 options (message, back out, monitor), but pressing 1,2, or 3 simply replots the page. All this was done using an instructor signon. ---------- response 26 03/05/76 08.47 b sherwood s Thanks for the comments. Will try to fix. ---------- response 27 03/05/76 13.06 koning csstaff Just tried again and found that monitoring works but sending a message and backing out does not; there is no response at all to the keypresses. Could the option for deletin; a student when inspecting the record be changed to require HELP1 rather than the (rather cumbersome) typing of 'delete'? Some other key would do to guard against bouncing keysets, but if possible a single key (LAB1ˆ/). ---------- response 28 03/05/76 14.57 nagel vu I must have missed something I did note see a way to create a multiple record.....The only options that I had were......student, author, instructor. Also....in the past some people have lost track of their passwords. Even though I could not determine what it was, it was possible to clear out the password and have the student pick a new one. The only way now appears to be to create a new record and copy the contents of the old one (minus password) so that you do not lose the router info under the old signon. I think that at least student and multiple passwords should be clearable. We have also set up author passwords (temp) at time of creation of the record.... might be a good idea to allow this. ---------- response 29 03/05/76 15.40 friedman csa Seems to be a bug in the section which sets allowable options for authors and instructors: one line seems to list about 3 options jammed right up next to one another; looks like they were intended to be separate options. Maybe some missing commas on a writec? ---------- response 30 03/05/76 17.27 b sherwood s Thanks for comments, Will look into. Don't understand Nagel's not being able to create a multiple. Will check. Also don't understand why Nagel cannot clear a student's password. Just use the password option on the "see student record" option. ---------- response 31 03/05/76 17.30 b sherwood s !!! Found that Nagel's record have a few options turned off! Don't know how an old record could have been like that, but it was. I turned them on. ---------- response 32 03/08/76 20.31 jimw english When looking at the curiculum statistics for the course could there be a better explanatory message on the page specifying which type of records to see data for? Right now many teachers get confused when they see the list of various types of people, students, multiples, etc. and are simply told to press next. Could the message state that by pressing NEXT they will see data on the records followed by YES. thanks, Jim ---------- note 263 SYS 03/04/76 12.41 matthews css Execution Error Error occurred in lesson - nrecords in unit - readstn Current state - regular(pre-arrow) Last command -sbread 2nd command (......) Error type - Jon sequence - monitor 4 maybe I shouldn't be asking but (just out of curiosity) what does the command sbread do (?!?!) ---------- response 1 03/04/76 12.54 smith musa You use it with -sbutter-. It must be used in a Jon sequence though. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 13.05 b sherwood s -sbread- reads data cut of Student Bank (the system part of your status. Thanks for the report, will try to locate problem. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 13.42 b sherwood s Well, I can't see what caused your problem. Please send me a pnote describing what you were doing just before it happened? Thanks. ---------- note 279 bas tnx 03/04/76 14.15 berger mfl I want to express my gratitude to Bruce Sherwood for the following reason: Often, major changes are made to system lessons, without solicitation of user opinion. In many cases, the changes are made without warning, and user input is not welcome. A couple of us at the language laboratory have criticized Bruce Sherwood's new course records editor, and he is looking into our complaints. Thanks, Bruce, for your fine outlook on soliciting user input BEFORE the proposed change is made! ---------- response 1 03/04/76 14.22 friedman csa Agreed! Wish we saw more on this attitude! ---------- response 2 03/04/76 14.35 b sherwood s Surely you don't think I'll actually DO anything with your suggestions???!!!! ---------- response 3 03/04/76 15.31 nate iumusic no comment. ---------- response 4 03/04/76 15.39 parrello mfl Shame on you for taking advantage of Mike's basically innocent and trusting nature, 1dr. Sherwood! ---------- response 5 03/04/76 21.52 daleske amesrad heh heh ---------- response 6 03/05/76 20.19 hinton ssu Kidding aside, it is really nice to be asked ahead of time, and the numbers of things covered in the (so far) 31 res- ponses to the announcement show the rewards that can result from this. ndh ---------- note 289 CAI 03/04/76 14.59 matthews css I am attempting to do a report on Computer-Based Educ. and its value as a education media. I would like to know if any of the more-intelligent platoites out there could suggest some good source reading material and/or technical reports on the subject. (this material should cover the following areas past,present and future(planed) CAI system CBE system (don't know't know the difference myself) ≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤and any evaluation of the above PS: if you can tell me where this material is located i appreciated very much PPS: thanks in advance ---------- response 1 03/04/76 15.00 berger mfl I think Bruce Hicks in the dept. of Secondary Education can provide you with a good reading list. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 15.02 matthews css How do I get in touch with him? ---------- response 3 03/04/76 15.56 jim g reading The student/staff directory lists him in 381 Education Building (333-0132) UIUC. He has/is taught/teaching a class in CAI (CS357?). ---------- response 4 03/04/76 16.20 hody med you probably would get more willing cooperation if you said who your report was destined for... * science fair project or nsf grant!? ... it makes a heap of difference! ---------- response 5 03/04/76 16.35 matthews css Rhet 105: research paper ---------- response 6 03/04/76 17.12 loitz o You can contact Dr. Hicks by pnote to: hicks/ed ---------- response 7 03/04/76 19.38 al mfl I have another suggestion for what you can do....... ---------- response 8 03/04/76 21.59 daleske amesrad CAI-Computer Aided Instruction: Assistance to educations in covering major problem areas. The instructor still as a major role in the ed- ucational process in a classroom or tutorial sense, while also using the CAI system as a tool... CBE-Computer Based Education: A system that replaces most (direct) human instruction, with humans handling difficulties in using the instructional device and fine points not covered in the general tutorial lessons. I guess it depends on whether the system is conversational with the student (can talk, not just respond at an arrow) and how much time a student is required on system as time spent with the instructor. Any other ideas? John ---------- response 9 03/04/76 23.34 carter comm In regard to purpose, it certainly does not make any difference. Today's rhet 105 student may be tommorrrow's innovator, so you certainly don't want to shortchange someone, in a technical information sense, because of their youth. In regard to a current or prospective federal grantee, they too should have the best current techinical iunformation, in order to make the most cost-effective use of the taxpayer's dollar. Dr. Hody's comment is ambigious--I don't know who he would be opposed to giving a helping hand. but in either case he is most certainly wrong. ---------- response 10 03/05/76 10.37 hody med the comment which carter finds undoubtedly wrong (even though he admits not understanding it!) was meant to suggest that the inquiry would be handled differently if it were from a student writing a report than if it cam from an agency which could publicize or support CAI/CBE. * this is not to derogate the student's inquiry but to point out that part of the purpose of assigning reports is to teach the use of library resources. a student inquiry should be initially referred to literature while a foundation or governmental institution request should be handled personally by the system organization. * this was not to say student should not be helped-- quite the contrary-- but as priorities exist, the depth and nature of the effort expended in response to the inquiry would be differeny in the two cases. i guess for some people you really have to spell it out! ---------- response 11 03/05/76 12.15 carter comm Still wrong. It takes a lot of imagination to infer the original request is anything related to an RFP (request for proposal) or other official communication. The student was correct in soliciting help through notes since much of the CAI literature exists in obscure techinical reports that even the U of I library has no knowledge of. The recognition that a library search would yield an incomplete picture of the field demonstrates a sophistication greater than Dr. Hody's. In any scientific field, it is virtually impossible to establish where the action is through the published literature, due to the lag times for journal publication. Informal access to the "invisible colleges", which NOTES provides a means of doing, can precisely establish current research interest. While I doubt rhet 105 will require this level of inquiry, this is a good lesson to learn anytime. ---------- response 12 03/05/76 13.44 judy pso There is another area a "computer instruction" which was not mentioned. That is CMI, "Computer Managed Instuction". In CMI, the computer does little teaching, but rather directs the path of the student through a prescribed course of study. For information about a study using CMI with PLATO, contact Prof. Thomas Anderson 236 Education, UI 333-8287 You might also try Steve Alessi..... hm.. what is his current signin? ---------- response 13 03/05/76 14.27 hody med yeah-- well, carter, you write the paper FOR the student then! * and i wonder why no one invited the student to examine the excellent source of material which are available in the CERL library-- i suspect those would be more than a rhet 105 project would require ---------- response 14 03/05/76 15.11 gilpin peer steve alessi's current signon is alessi/pcp, but i think the amount of effort he could provide might be limited, since he is now working with a different and quite demanding project. my understanding was that cbe was the more gerenal term, and encompassed any direct educational-medium use of computer, and that cai, cmi, cami, etc. were various special kinds of cbe. ---------- response 15 03/05/76 20.46 matthews css Sorry to have caused so much argument over the request for help but I had tried the U of I undergraduate library and struck out there and I thought the maybe PLATO users being actively involved in the field might be able to at least point me to the right direction. Mr(Dr?) Hody Idid not request that mr carter or anyone else write my paper but rather I merely requested (or thought I did) information that would allow me to write it. I state again that I had tried the library on campus but when you think about it CBE,CAI,CMI are not exactly old established fields and there is very little information on file at our library about them. Also I made the request _ONLY_ after I had asked my Rhet instructor if the information that (I thought) I would have gotten here would be acceptable and she said that it would ---------- response 16 03/05/76 20.57 hody med this is getting to be a hassle... all i said was: it would be helpful if you said what you wanted the infor for... * ok awready? ---------- response 17 03/05/76 22.38 matthews css Sorry for any hard feeling that I might have caused to you or anyone else because of my request. E≤≤S≤≤E≤≤E≤≤R ---------- response 18 03/06/76 16.49 frye mfl So: to answer your question -- you could contact Mr. Hicks as mentioned above, OR check into the material (some of it quite old and quaint!) at the CERL library (second floor). CR talk to some of the more ancient authors on the system about other information. I'd personally recommend paying no attention to all the bullsh*t in previous responses -- al/carter/hody are experts at this.... Good luck on your project! G. David Frye ---------- response 19 03/06/76 20.33 matthews css Thank you all. ---------- response 20 03/07/76 19.11 carter comm There are several substantive points at issue here that certainly do not fall under the categorization "bullshit". At issue is wheter the dissemination of current (pre-journal) scientific research results should be selective or open to all interested parties. Dr. Hody's c-concern, as I understand it, was to establish whether the inquiry was from student of someone "important". He apparently favors the restriction of recent results--a position I strongly oppose for at least two reason: (1) Such a position restricts scientific advance. (2) People connected with educational institutions are paid to assist students. ---------- response 21 03/08/76 22.38 warrens uw (Reese ?) Mathews, I quite sympathtic towards your request at this particular time. I chose to read your note as it was labeled .CAI.! At this time I am in the process of starting to get a bibliography of computer utilizing resources/publication. In fact as I am writing this response I am waiting for some of it. What I am trying to say is that your request was/is valid and the references people gave you should be looked into, I will be most likely doing so. I came across one of the PLATO articles the other day in_ SCIEN _ (date and volume, etc. available by pnote), written, I believe, by D. Bitzer. This article distinguished CAI and CBE nicely (I thought). ---------- response 22 03/08/76 23.49 clegg amesrad Any reason for keeping the citation from the rest of us? (Yeah, I know it's available in a bibliography in a file somewhere on the system). If I can add to the debate of whether the request for info was made by a student or someone "important": ever stop to think that the needs of these two types of people are different? That is to say, a student in a 100 level course will probably be looking for different info than someone doing a NSF research proposal. No? Janet Clegg ---------- response 23 03/09/76 11.50 lombardo ed In reference to the original question, which is at this point almost obscure, you might start with a basic understanding of the subject, try: "Introduction To Artificial Intelligence" "philip C. Jackson dal Coincideltally I would be interested in purchasing that book if someone at UIUC is selling it cheap! ---------- response 24 03/09/76 13.39 matthews css in response to ms. clegg response the reason that I choosed this topic instead of some other standard literary topic is that I am interested in the field myself and I thought that I could kill two birds with one stone(increase my knowledge as well as do my paper in the area), therefore there really isn't a need to say that I would need a different type of knowledge for my report than some "important" person. ---------- note 291 eOH 03/04/76 15.01 matthews css Is there anything planned for the engineering open house this weekend by the plato staff(demo's,tour of the facilities,ect) ---------- response 1 03/04/76 15.40 parrello mfl Contact Mark Dickelman ("mark d" of "csa"). ---------- note 307 notesbug 03/04/76 16.06 mailman ustaf Right after the 4:00 crash this afternoon, when I signed back on I was told I had a pnote, yet when I signed into "notes" there was none there. Shades of great guano gap! ---------- response 1 03/04/76 16.10 golden s No" That will happen if you had a note before the crash, deleted it, and didn't sign-off before the crash. It is really no mystery and that really isn't dragon you see in the operator's office. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 16.19 travers mxc This has to win the award for question-asked-most-often-in- notes. Why doesn't someone put an explanatory message somewhere (like the 'NO MORE NOTES' page)? ---------- response 3 03/04/76 16.20 hody med if anywhere, in the HELP pages.... you don't want to wait for the message to plot each time... yes? ---------- response 4 03/04/76 18.34 travers mxc It doesn't have to be very long...something like: NOTE: If the system crashes before you leave, you might get an erroneous 'NOTES' message. Not that long to plot, yes? ---------- response 5 03/04/76 19.41 al mfl Better suggestion: When going into pnotes, check to see if the notes flag is set and there are no notes. If so, under the "you have no notes" message write the following: The answer to your question before you ask it is that the system probably crashed. ---------- response 6 03/04/76 20.08 travers mxc But what about people you don't delete their notes (like me). Yes, I know you're supposed to, but that doesn't mean people do it. ---------- response 7 03/05/76 12.36 k mast p We plan to write back records when the NOTES flag is changed, thus eliminating the problem. ---------- note 313 system log 03/04/76 16.21 michael english In "accounts", why is the log for 09/24/75 attached, then a skip to 03/04/76? ---------- response 1 03/04/76 17.24 fay o Last evening around 10 PM we had a system problem involving some system-level permanent commons. Basically, old data were substituted for new data at the time of the error. We are working on backing up the new data and thus far it appears as if relatively little, if any, permanent loss will result. You should only notice a problem with systems lessons. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 21.13 fortner p Err, that particular date has nothing to do with any problems last night: The first block just has an old date on it: it will be changed next time the log is initialized.... ---------- note 320 windows 03/04/76 18.00 sebby css Is there any way to make a window command affect size 0 writing? I'd like to do an animation with size 0 writing, a window command, and mode rewrite. However, window com- mands don't affect size 0, and if I use size 1 writing, mode rewrite doesn't work for that size! Help, anyone?? Thanks a lot. Paul Sebby ---------- response 1 03/04/76 18.38 berger mfl Window commands only affect line drawn characters. That is why size 0 isn't affected. ---------- note 324 deleted 03/04/76 18.42 berger mfl When an author is deleted from a lesson being condensed out from under him, he no longer gets the "lesson deleted" message until he presses a key. Even stranger is the fact that the "in" command still lists that station as being in the lesson, and a "press" command on that station is executed successfully. ---------- response 1 03/04/76 18.50 michael english So THAT was why I couldn't delete a ghost from one of my lessons! ---------- response 2 03/05/76 20.23 hinton ssu I saw it happen to a new author this week, and if no one had explained it to him, he might still be sitting there wondering what happened.... ---------- note 332 -otoa- 03/04/76 19.41 travers mxc Unannounced features dept.: unit test arrow 1010 store n1 ok otoa n1,n2 $$¬A¬Aheeheehee showa n2,20 ---------- response 1 03/04/76 20.44 elston rhrc That's been around for at least a few years and perhaps even longer. I always wondered why it wasn't released. One is lead to wonder if there isn't a -vtoa- lying in wait out there somewhere. 2c≤/ ---------- response 2 03/04/76 21.12 midden s Unannounced feature. Was not released due to the fact that if that was done people would expect "showt", "showz", "show" type commands that work no matter what. There is still mixed feelings as to the way to go about making this available. ---------- response 3 03/04/76 21.23 curly iu Huh? Why would i expect the impossible? (or very difficult) curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 4 03/04/76 23.07 dave fuller uimc Marshall: Huh? ---------- response 5 03/05/76 08.06 t little research I can't seem to understand why some people find it neccesary to annouce features in notes that the systems software staff hasn't yet released. Todd ---------- response 6 03/05/76 08.33 nate iumusic maybe some of them are handy or interesting (I said some of them)? ---------- response 7 03/05/76 10.31 friedman csa Well, it's not unheard of for a feature to be unannounced simply because everyone overlooked announcing it! ---------- response 8 03/05/76 10.40 hody med hear hear! ---------- response 9 03/05/76 16.12 tom s mfl Yes, like the -anserase- tag for the -inhibit- command... ---------- response 10 03/06/76 09.39 travers mxc Well, I'm sorry if I offended anybody's sense of propriety, but I just feel that systems is way too overprotective with such things as new features, ability to access files, etc. There's altogether too many unnecessary secrets and re- strictions on the system. I would like to see some change in the philosophy of the people in charge, but I guess announcing unannounced features isn't the best way to go about it....again, sorry. ---------- response 11 03/06/76 11.44 jim g reading I can understand why they are overprotective. They don't want a rash of complaints from people relying on an unannounced feature when they withdraw it. On the other hand when I discovered the "last writing erased" hassle of opunits I asked for a inhibit operase. I was told _no_ by a systems reply and to just throw in an extra write (kludge). So tom s of mfl who had seen a printout with inhibit anserase on it and realized its potential gave a gentle prod by mentioning it in the chain of replys to my "operase" proposal. His "leak" tractics got instant resutls! ---------- response 12 03/06/76 19.20 blomme s Sometimes there are things that have been missed or maybe should be re-thought and a solution found--people certainly have every right to mention and question such things. Features and commands which have not been announced have no guarantee as to their future existence or continued operation in their current manner and so are obviously not good candidates for inclusion in any serious programming work. With so many commands and options available, members of the system staff at times give incorrect information or do not know about conditions in a particular area (almost human, if you'd care to look at it that way!) ---------- note 343 zero dfile 03/04/76 21.39 michael english It is my unpleasant duty to run a program every couple of days that reads and processes 35-40 datafiles. When this chunker is done, which takes over a half-hour, I have to go zero, by hand, every single datafile, typing in all the datafile names, all the datafile security codes. Needless to say, I enjoy this task immensely. It is also a joy to discover that the datafile is in use by the time you get to it, necessitating that it be re-read at a later time, with kludgy measures being taken to ignore the previous in- formation already processed. It has been requested calmly since datafiles were first released: will someone please put program zeroing of data- files on their job-board? If the system people cannot spare the time, I or any of a half-dozen other competent curricu- lum programmers will volunteer to do it. Please? ---------- response 1 03/05/76 03.21 clark lawyer DONE! (hopefully) Take a look at lesson "zerodata". It is set up so that you can zero up to 25 datafiles in probably 5 or 10 minutes (depending on the size of the files). Let me know if it fails to zero everything since I only could test it with one datafile which had not been filled. Suggestions are welcome as I just wrote the lesson at 4:00 am in about 15 minutes. The format is not very elegant. J. Clark Kelso ---------- response 2 03/05/76 03.30 koning csstaff Data_files_, not data_sets_... ---------- response 3 03/05/76 03.49 clark lawyer its later than I thought....sigh...sorry ---------- response 4 03/05/76 08.49 jim g reading Gary, I have the same problem. I have to zero up to 26 datafiles every working day. The task easily takes 1/2 hour every time, I for one am not afraid of being replaced by automation for this task" In fact it is the only direct human intervention in our automatic data collection and crunching. Please, System People. ---------- response 5 03/05/76 12.41 chabay s CK, we're thinking about ways to do it. ---------- note 346 snambufull 03/04/76 22.23 berger mfl The system name buffer for autosign is full. ---------- response 1 03/04/76 23.49 loitz o fixed..... ---------- response 2 03/05/76 09.09 berger mfl Thanks! ---------- note 348 vertseg 03/04/76 23.10 alan reading define vertseg,fielc=n15,1,10 field=firsten(1) ? ---------- response 1 03/04/76 23.15 alan reading Pretend the second define was written correctly. ---------- response 2 03/04/76 23.42 daleske amesrad You COULD have just edited the second define to make it correct... Am I missing something here? I dont under- stand your request, idea, solution, problem... John ---------- response 3 03/05/76 02.32 elston rhrc What I assume he is asking for is a short way of defining single variables (not subscripted arrays) which take up less than 60 bits and can occur in any position in a word. However, since they won't even shorten "segment,vertical" I would imagine that this will not be done either. I agree with his idea but I dont like "vertseg". It just doesn't have the proper meaning. Something like "segvar", "segword", or "variable" seem to fit better. 2c≤/ ---------- note 349 organize 03/04/76 23.10 daleske amesrad The lesson which was promised a couple weeks ago, that will help everyone find out who went where, signonwise, is now completed with the final changes and available in lesson -organize-, It also gives a simple explanation as to why we made the change, and what each of the new courses is for. We will be completing another lesson shortly that will keep a somewhat continuous touch on the users, authors, projects, courses, lessons, and departments on the State campus. (It is hoped that the ECS usage will be small, and the lesson will be -use-able by all accounts) [Send info requests to boysen/amesrad, miller/amesrad or j thiher/amesrad] John ---------- note 370 linear eq 03/05/76 10.38 rick mfl Does anyone our there know of a lesson to solve simultaneous linear equations (besides the one in "calcindex")? ---------- response 1 03/05/76 13.25 boysen amesrad Try lesson 'matrix'. ---------- note 373 -jumpout- 03/05/76 11.13 olson ced This morning one of my -jumpout- commands worked funny. At an arrow, instead of jumping out when next was pressed it said simply, ok. Upon pressing next again, it returned to Plato Author page. Weird, it was only repeatable once. DvO ---------- response 1 03/05/76 11.49 berger mfl What was your ECS situation at the time? ---------- note 375 quests 03/05/76 11.26 yamada mxc 1. why can't a student name in a course be 20 characters? the last spaces are zero filled anyway, according to aids. 2. is there any reason why a dataset record has a minimum size of 64 words? why not 10? ---------- response 1 03/05/76 11.50 berger mfl The last 12 bits of the student name are used by the system, even though we can't access it with the "name" command. ---------- response 2 03/05/76 13.38 rader s The minimum size of a dataset record is set at 64 due to limitations on the maximum number of records in a file-- each record has to be accounted for in the reserve/release machinery. ---------- response 3 03/05/76 18.47 blomme s Also if we were to make a disk access every time you want a couple of words, this would to overburden the disk system and basically encourage ill-designed programs that did not account for the constraints imposed by the real world. It would seem better to me to address the problem of (very) small information packages through another approach whereby sequential sections might be obtained from an ecs buffer which was filled only occasionally from disk. Note that the analog to this on the output side exists in the form of data files. If it really is a random access situation, then I think the user should be encouraged to analyze the problem so as to minimize the number of disk accesses required. This on contradistinction to encouraging the total abandonment of such considerations to the "system"...and then wondering why things are "slow" or"inefficient" in operation. ---------- note 390 basealot 03/05/76 14.25 swenson a Is there any thought being given to a new system reserved word "basealot" which would contain a sites base ecs allocation? ---------- response 1 03/05/76 14.43 michael cornell See Public Note ¬$ 183 MViVkVe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 2 03/05/76 16.51 berger mfl And two public notes before that.... ---------- note 393 ignorerase 03/05/76 14.35 michael cornell I have a funny bug in my lesson. Can anybody tell me why nothing at all is erased by the -judge ignore- in the unit in the first response? I have talked to several people, and none of them seems to know..Thanks! M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 1 03/05/76 14.36 nagel vu Well......what lesson what block???????? ---------- response 2 03/05/76 14.37 michael cornell unit ruleindx arrow 2528 long 1 at 2530 write ************************ store work1 write Number, please! ok branch (key="1")$and$(jcount=1),x,1fin long 2 force long judge exit ifin judge (-1 instead of DATA1 to enter a security code from the block display. Since DATA1 is used everywhere else for this, can't it be changed back? ---------- response 1 03/05/76 16.51 michael english Ditto. ---------- response 2 03/05/76 16.59 dave infe you bet. ---------- response 3 03/05/76 17.34 b sherwood s Changes ARE coming -- but we have some integration problems among several of us. Hang on! ---------- response 4 03/06/76 14.42 friedman csa A response on this subject at last! Thanks, Bruce. ---------- response 5 03/06/76 13.08 daleske amesrad Wouldn't "S" (shift-'s') be better? This is the form of the option at the Author Mode page. Let's try to keep some form of standard, please? John ---------- note 417 no term? 03/05/76 17.17 wagle iu Just out of curiosity why is term disabled on the data page of a lesson? ---------- response 1 03/05/76 18.32 frankel p You mean "why isn't it enabled" -- the answer is, somebody didn't think about it when that part of the editor was written. It should be enabled sometime in the near future. ---------- response 2 03/05/76 19.29 wagle iu Well, I thought that either somebody either forgot about it or deliberately disabled it in some sort of pause loop.. Either way, i was wondering either if it might be changed or why it was the way it is.. ---------- note 425 R-help1 03/05/76 19.08 frifs ee Back in note 218 I suggested adding the option of deleating a line in replace mode by pressing HELP1. This would remain consistant with the format for deletion in the other parts of the editor. This option, along with DATA to go between insert and replace mode, would allow easy modification of a small piece of code. When I originaly suggested this, no one objected to the format, and it would maintain consistancy within the editor. However the was no systems comment before. Do I hear any yea's ? EvE ---------- response 1 03/05/76 19.09 al mfl I like it. ---------- response 2 03/06/76 16.18 anderer ee Sounds good. ---------- note 429 term talk2 03/05/76 19.46 fisher conn ******** termtalk 03/04/76 11.26 berger mflu When I erase a line in TERM talk in monitor mode, I lose s-10 characters of the next line I type. This was not the case a few weeks ago. ******** This gets very aggravating. each time you hit next, you cannot type for about two seconds..... if possible.. could this be 'fixed' or something done to speed it up? a slowed down sorta fast typist... fishswine ---------- response 1 03/05/76 20.48 nate iumusic This is ESPECIALLY annoying to me (all right, so for once I _agree_ with Mike Berger). a full-fledged keyboarder Nate ---------- response 2 03/06/76 10.45 berger mfl I thought it was MY trick to copy my old notes over until someone acts! Thanks for the support! ---------- response 3 03/08/76 18.25 fritz amesrad ******** *response* 03/08/76 18.01 fritz amesrad And it's much worse if you hit LAB. ******** Et tu, eh what? -------------------------------------- note 435 lost keys 03/05/76 20.57 mike b cornell Lately I have noticed that PLATO loses keypresses (usually only one, but occasionally more than one) at arrows. This has been happening tonight, even though there is a relatively light load on the system (ˇ¬n231 terminals). This is very annoying, especially when it causes students to lose keypresses in typing a correct answer. Is there a good reason for this phenomenon? M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 1 03/08/76 14.45 bowery comm It seems that it occurs most often when no processing or key pressing has occured for a few minutes. If one then starts typing in stuff it ignores the first couple keys and then works fine(?) ---------- note 436 exec error 03/05/76 22.15 koning csstaff I just got a really strange execution error: Execution error in lesson - vav unit - hidarow State - regular (post-judging) Last command - unit (embedded write) 0th command (...) Error type - (blank) What I don't understand is (1) why I get an error in a -unit- command (so far as I can see no one passes para- meters to the unit), (2) what the 'embedded write' means. Does anyone know what is going on? ↓PS. There _are_ bugs in the lesson, but I can't see how they cause this. Since I fixed those, I can't reproduce ---------- note 438 nrecords 03/05/76 23.02 b sherwood s Many changes have been made to "nrecords" in response to the many suggestions and reports of bugs. You might like to look at it again now and make a new set of suggestions, since I may have missed some things. (Not all things have been done, but many have been.) Remember for now NOT to press shift¬STOP in nrecords! You will leave your course attached to that terminal -- you can clear it by re-editing the course from the same terminal. You should in any case not edit a course you care about! ---------- response 1 03/05/76 23.04 b sherwood s One user has asked that the "see who is running" choice should be on the first nrecords page because it is so important. I don't agree, and it seems to me that the "running" display is sufficiently slow that an extra keypress to get thre shouldn't matter. And I don't what to make the first-page menu any longer: I think it should be as short as possible. Nevertheless, having stated my prejudices, I would be happy to hear what you prefer..... ---------- response 2 03/05/76 23.20 koning csstaff I still can't get options 1 and 2 on the running user display to work as an instructor although they are displayed as options. It would also help if the password inputter required one to type the password twice. Thanks for making LAB the key to delete a record from its inspect page... ---------- response 3 03/05/76 23.23 b sherwood s I do intend to install double-input password and security code machinery. Thought the monitor/backout stuff was fixed. Will look. ---------- response 4 03/05/76 23.47 hinton ssu I'd like to try it, but I don't have a course I don't care about ! What I can see without trying anything looks very good, though. ndh ---------- response 5 03/06/76 01.19 larry mvarst I just entered a course in 'Inspect Only' and found that I was trapped. Since I did not know the change code for the course, the edit and escape option was unavailable. Just thought the bug was important enough to report.... Larry Stinson ---------- response 6 03/06/76 01.39 galcher uimc The "escape" option? There is way out though. If you press DATA1 to enter your security code and garbage it, you are sent to the "wrong security code" page. From there you can press BACK and get out. In the way of "minor complaints" department, if you are on the roster page and press "a" to look at an individual student record, but then decide not to, upon pressing BACK, you are thrown to the "roster operations" index. ---------- response 7 03/06/76 02.03 larry mvarst From what I gather from Bruce Sherwood's first note, the 'escape' option is when one edits the course in order to unnatach the course records from your terminal....or at least that is how I interpret it.... Larry Stinson ---------- response 8 03/06/76 10.47 berger mfl The course isn't attached in inspect only, so you need not worry about that. ---------- response 9 03/06/76 11.32 jim g reading Bruce, the reason I wanted "see students running" on the first page was that it is not at all obvious that "running" and the options it brings with it would fall under the category of "roster operations". The 1st time I tried nrecords I had to go through 3 of the 4 main options on the first menu page to find "running". I don't think this was a case of my own stupidity as I watched others have the same problem. If you could somehow make a mention of "running" in the parentheses after the option title on the main menu page it would help. ---------- response 10 03/06/76 14.39 hagstrom iuchem I still would prefer the students running option on the first page. For taht matter...put the statistics option in with 'special options'. It is by far the slowest option in all of records. And not used much in comparision with the 'students running' option. Other remaining bugs: 1) back from pnote file returns to regular course records 2) inactive p-notes option still shows in inspect only 3) data1 from main page doesnt work properly Other remaining request ; 1) bring back name and user type changes 2) allow inspection of author/instructor options in inspect only. 3) allow inspection of one's own author options..especially if in change mode. 4) allow inspection of signin messages in inspect mode curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 11 03/07/76 11.31 berger mfl One note of caution to users: Don't edit a course in "nrecords" duping system testing time - the system may press shift-stop on your terminal while you are editting a course! ---------- response 12 03/07/76 16.10 b sherwood phys It is interesting how different people's needs are. I'm almost never interested in whether my physics students are running at the moment. but I'm passionately interested in how far they've gotten so far (lessons completed, scores, last time on, total time on). ---------- response 13 03/07/76 20.19 halvorsen forestry Some other problems.... Pressing BACK after choosing the option 1 on the running page takes you all the way back to the index. Also, pressing BACK after choosing an option off the roster page takes you back to the index. Both these problems are not very convenient. ---------- response 14 03/08/76 08.18 berger mfl Bruce, the information that you find so interesting is useless to those of us that don't use the system router. ---------- response 15 03/08/76 10.50 b sherwood s Then we should make those statistical summaries more useful. For example, sessions isn't interesting, but last lesson is. Or some such. Any way, it would be nice to beef up those statisical summaries. ---------- response 16 03/08/76 11.02 whisenhunt siu By going into 'nrecords't and attemping to manage the pnotes file in a course that doesn't have pnotes results in the same old message about course not prepard to recieve pnotes. Upon pressing -NEXT- you are jumped to the old records editor. Gary ---------- note 447 where rat 03/06/76 03.42 sellers arizona *I thought the following code would returen: * *wherex=312 *wherey=314 * *but instead it returns:↓* *wherex=311 *wherey=313↓* unit test rorigin 300,300 $$300+1.2≠10=312 size 1.2,1.4 $$300+1.4≠10=314 rlocate 10,10 $$So why 311,313? calc n10¬wherex n11¬wherey at 1010 size 0 write wherex=¬0s,n10¬1 wherey=¬0s,n11¬1 ---------- response 1 03/06/76 19.29 white p Thanks, the next version of Plato should round the points to the nearest integer after the computation, rather than truncating to the lower integer. ---------- note 451 clubofrome 03/06/76 11.15 roper siu Bicentennial Horizons: A Club of Rome Symposium on Systems Science and America's Next Hundred Years. This symposium will be presented at SIU-Carbondale April 21-23, 1976. The Club of Rome is a non-political organization designed to be a catalyst for thinking about problems on a worldwide scale. Their best known study is "The Limits to Growth". At the symposium, Dr. Ervin Laszlo and other members of the Club of Rome will discuss the results of their latest project, "Goals for a Global Society", which Dr. Laszlo has called an investigation of the "gap between what needs to be done in the human interest and what people are actually doing about it." For further information, contact: Ms. Jeanne Bortz Division of Continling Education SIU-Carbondale IL 62901 ---------- note 454 new notes 03/06/76 11.55 woolley p New features in notes: While reading a group note, shift "T" lets you page the note's author (automatic "term talk"). Shift "P" lets you write a personal note to the note's author. Both of these options are available only to authors and instructors. The old "t" option in personal notes is now activated by shift "T". Group notes written by "write-only" sign-ons will now be marked as such. For the access tabel editor in the director options: When a new course is added, the entries from course "Other" are automatically copied in for the new course. SHEFT-NEXT advances to the next course or the next name. SHIFT-BACK takes you back to the course listing page (to make it easier to back out of the access editor.) Let me know about any problems that arise. ---------- response 1 03/06/76 12.12 chabay chem Great! Thanks. ---------- response 2 03/06/76 13.06 michael english Far out! Thanks, Dave. ---------- response 3 03/06/76 15.11 friedman csa Many thanks. People do listen! ---------- response 4 03/06/76 22.58 kowack ed in order to maintain some representation from the lenny↓bruce school of plato criticism (most famous for their opposition view of of the leopold and loeb case:↓ 'bobby franks was snotty') I would like to say (in a rousing sotto voice) to dave : NO THANKS! (grumble grumble another thing to remember) ---------- response 5 03/07/76 11.32 berger mfl If nothing else, now PLATO can be sold as the ultimate communications medium! Thanks, Dave and Kimmy. ---------- note 457 SD bug.. 03/06/76 13.17 wagle iu bug in SD machinery in the editor just now. very repeatable. size 1 at 726 write Testing this code will display: TEsting (at the right place though) ---------- response 1 03/06/76 13.36 rick mfl This is a known bug, and since the new SD will be coming out eventually. no one is likely to fix this. (It was first mentioned, to my recollection, about 5 months ago.) ---------- response 2 03/06/76 14.20 clark lawyer Currently, the -long- at the write arrow in SD is 2 less than the -long- in the editor.... one night not long ago, SD let me write over the max length and I got a condense error of tag too long...repeatable for only that night ---------- response 3 03/06/76 16.48 snellen medneta About 3-4 weeks ago, I ran into the same bug in SD that wagle describes. It is a pain, but not all that serious a problem since it _does_ format the word properly. So for the time being. at least, I should think that we can get by if we just grit our teeth and close our eyes when using SD. --JES ---------- response 4 03/07/76 15.11 halvorsen forestry Why close your eyes? Use SS or SM instead... ---------- response 5 03/07/76 22.19 koning csstaff Use SM? Don't you realize that announcing unannounced features is frowned upcn? ---------- response 6 03/08/76 09.28 coleman ced What is this unannounced feature called SM? ---------- response 7 03/08/76 11.05 al mfl Shoot tiM ---------- response 8 03/08/76 15.35 mcneil a uicc _S_ado_M_asichist. ---------- response 8 03/07/76 10.06 michael cornell I am curious as to why some code I wrote works perfectly in TERM "step" but not normally. Please see Public Note ¬$ 393; note especially the seventh response. M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 1 03/07/76 15.37 white p Answered. -------------------------------------- note 477 -readset- 03/07/76 15.48 rick mfl According to AIDS, a -readset- command with an invalid file name will set zreturn = 0. However, a -readset- on a file name = 0 or -0 produces an execution error. Shouldn't this be fixed? -------------------------------------- note 479 ¬,≤¬D 03/07/76 16.44 judy pso The only disadvantage to the "display a hidden character" feature which I have been able to find is its slow plotting speed. The ¬,≤¬D is a lovely little character, but it takes 11 characters to make it! I wonder if we could find a shorter, satisfactory symbol. How about *≤!, which is only 4 characters? ---------- response 1 03/07/76 22.20 koning csstaff Good idea. ---------- response 2 03/08/76 10.20 warner iu Oh, come _on_! Slow plotting speed, indeed....on this system, 11 characters take just over 1/6 second to feed to the terminal! Wait until you go back to an ordinary computer terminal system and sit there for 15 seconds twiddling your thumbs while a paragraph prints out on your TTY33... ---------- response 3 03/08/76 10.21 judy pso or maybe =≤≡ ? ---------- response 4 03/08/76 14.42 bowery comm Being the bugger for optimization that I am, I cannot see how this is a "hot-spot" on the system. Further, the time spent plotting this nice symetric char (devoid of strange information/noise)is worth its "niceness" in my opinion. ---------- response 5 03/08/76 15.11 frye mfl Actually, warner's timing is a little incorrect (more like .03 sec for the entire ¬W≤¬A≤¬X) but personally it doesn't make much difference to me. The little thing is kinda pretty. though... G. David ---------- note 480 SM(h) 03/07/76 17.14 sutton phys It would be nice if the edit option SM(h), reposition disp., would either recognize rdraw (or vector) or would NOT change ;0,0; to ;3201; ---------- response 1 03/07/76 18.45 nate iumusic Might also be nice if it were completed and publicly announced? Hello Marshall ---------- response 2 03/07/76 20.11 midden s Hello. Rdraw, vector, huh? nrdraw it recognizes, and since it seems that it'll be ages before a conversion routine can be run... yes it'll have to know that such a beast exists. Vector??? It had better recognize vector" could I have a specific example of a vector that it doesn't recognize? (this had better be talking about the "displaying" part of the Interactive Display Editor, and note about the creating of new code part.) Marshall Midden ---------- response 3 03/07/76 20.20 pogue uimatha I like the SM option a lot and use it often. Just one comment you may be able to fix in a trice. In option 'a' which doesnt move past unrecognized commands, i cant get out of the habit of pressing next to go past it. NEXT1 seems to a strange choice.... mike ---------- response 4 03/08/76 13.35 churches iu ↓The first second to that last comment ( if you know what I mean).... Please make it NEXT. DC ---------- response 5 03/08/76 20.59 midden s The NEXT, Shift NEXT, BACK option changed by popular demand. Will have to copy nedit to edit finalize many changes... perhaps you'll see them soon... ---------- note 486 press copy 03/07/76 20.36 halvorsen pcp I have several text editors that students use to enter things like comments, opinions, etc that must be simple to use. A very common format for this type of editor is one that presses COPY1 at an arrow. This way, all a user needs to do is press EDIT if he wants to change any existing text and simply presses ERASE if he wants to change the last few characters. The only problem with this type of editor is that the -press- command forces an implied pause. This causes things to be very slow. A suggested solution would be to add an extra parameter to the -arrow- command such as: arrow 1010,reedit This would automatically take the contents of the copy buffer and simulate pressing COPY1 at the arrow. (cont) ---------- response 1 03/07/76 20.41 halvorsen pcp The advantages of this proposal would be to greatly speed up the many various editors that exist and would get around the very clumsy press command that causes things to be slow even without the implied pause. Any comments on this idea would be appreciated... Systems? ---------- response 2 03/08/76 00.59 elston rhrc Amen!!!! PS: With a little luck this would also be a way to initiate judging with no -PRESS- delay to do all sorts of neat and wonderous things!!! ---------- response 3 03/08/76 09.24 jmk pso Another trick in text editing is to catch the NEXT key and turn it into a CR for ease in editing multiple line inputs. This must also be done with a -press-. I would like to see a solution to this as well as the problem of an autopress when the arrow is first established. Perhaps some way to get one "free" -press- per specified time interval. ---------- response 4 03/08/76 11.08 al mfl A neater idea wold be to eliminate the 1 second delay from the first press command. ---------- response 5 03/08/76 12.02 halvorsen forestry The only problem with eliminating the delay for the first press is that I would like the user of an editor to be able to page forward and backward through the lines of text easily. This cannot be done by eliminating the delay for the first press since if one wants to back up 5 lines, he will get no delay for the first line and then get delays for the next 4 lines. This would not an acceptable solution to the problem. The only way to solve this would be with some sort of parameter on the arrow macherinery. ---------- response 6 03/08/76 12.16 koning csstaff I like the suggestion of having some way to specify an automatic once-only press for the arrow. If it would allow anything to be pressed, this would be very helpful. ---------- response 7 03/08/76 12.51 rice nuc I'd like to see the press delay moved from before the keypress to after the keypress, (i.e press pause press pause... vs_.≤_ pause press...) This would still prevent shady uses of multiple presses but would avoid some aggravating delays when only key is pressed. jcr ---------- response 8 03/08/76 13.52 halvorsen pcp Huh? The delay would still be there whether it is before or after the press. it would still slow down your program. ---------- response 9 03/08/76 14.27 b sherwood s When you suggest " simulating pressing COPY1" with the reedit option, I assume that you do NOT want the -showa- done, which would slow down motion to the next line. In other words, it would be the responsibility of the author to do the appropriate -showa- to get the text on the screen. Wouldn't a -reedit- command be a better solution, with the tag being the location of the character string? That way the COPY key could also be active. The -reedit- command would have to FOLLOW an -arrow- command (since the -arrow- command initializes the input buffer). ---------- response 10 03/08/76 15.38 berger mflu I don't know if that will solve Tim's problem, but it would certainly be advantageous for me! ---------- response 11 03/08/76 15.56 clark lawyer RE: response ¬$7 What rice is doing is assuming that the pause before the keypress would not show up since PLATO would be executing the pause before the display actually reached that point in the program (much as a pause now only is fairly accurate if a catchup command precedes it). ---------- response 12 03/08/76 17.32 bowery comm This problem should be thought of as a regular state function analogous to -loada-. ie: arrow 100≠line+101 long 120 entera string(line),len(line) storea buffer,len(line)‎jcount *etc... -entera- would make it look like the student had typed in the answer in "string(line)" at the arrow (to the judging machinery NOT the terminal), stop processing at the -storea- and wait for some action by the student at the arrow (EDIT, EDIT1, ERASE, ERASE1, etc.. etc..). When the student takes action, normal output and processing resumes. A line longer than -long- -entera-ed would cause an exec error. *** end of notes ***