+++ plato iv group notes +++ Public Notes notes beginning april 6, 1976 file pbnotes10 printed at 6:43 pm on june 12, 1976 ---------- note 0 rec edit 04/06/76 09.49 deiss phar How do I change someones name in the course roster now? ---------- response 1 04/06/76 10.05 friedman csa You cannot change the name of an author, nor (I think) of an instructor. To change the name of a student or a multiple, display the record; one of the displayed options (unless it's turned off for you) is to change the name. ---------- response 2 04/06/76 10.26 deiss phar Is there a reason for this that I missed somewhere back? ---------- response 3 04/06/76 11.19 friedman csa Guess you missed it...try in the vicinity of 3/4/76, note ¬$260, for part of the discussion...other stuff older, I didn't keep on searching. It was stated to be a matter of security. ---------- response 4 04/06/76 11.45 koning csstaff Instructor signons are like authors; you can't change the name. Of course you can always delete the record and re-create it with the new name... ---------- response 5 04/06/76 15.25 sellers arizona Used to be able to peek at other person's pnotes is same course as result of the name change option. ---------- response 6 04/07/76 16.15 alan hebrew Now it takes 2 courses to do the same. ---------- note 1 seg-edit 04/06/76 09.51 fries ee Announcing, a usable segmented/unsegmented variable editor in lesson segedit. The basic editor shows 20 seg- ments at one time, allows stepping through forward or backward 20 variables, and brings a requested variable to the top of the display. It includes some safety features to prevent over writting, as well as 2 levels of editing and an inspect only level. Check out lesson segedinfo to see a working version with all the options included; along with a description of its features and how to write the support code. EˇE ---------- response 1 04/06/76 14.18 berger mfl As a point of interest, "editmatic" is a dataset variable editor with similar features - it has been available for several months. ---------- response 2 04/07/76 11.09 fries ee Seg-edit is set up for those people that don't use datasets for there storage, or for those people that want editing capability while in their lesson. If they want to edit a dataset outside their lesson editmatic has more features, but again, it was made for a different purpose. EˇE ---------- note 2 rec. mode 04/06/76 09.56 errol kka If you make a mistake in setting the mode of a record (e.g., to student instead of instructor), how do you change this mode without having first to destroy the record? It is easy to incorrectly set the mode when you are inserting a whole series of names at once. It seems to me that a feature is needed to change the mode of a record while you are in the record as before. I am not suggesting that we should get rid of the new method of designating the mode. Perhaps I missed a way of making this change? errol ---------- response 1 04/06/76 10.06 friedman csa No, you didn't miss it, it's been deliberately left out of the present records editor. ---------- response 2 04/06/76 11.38 errol kka Why has this feature been left out? Will it be added? ---------- response 3 04/06/76 11.51 alan hebrew People are paranoid, as usual. ---------- response 4 04/07/76 10.42 friedman csa Again, a security problem. See the responses to note ¬$0 for reference to the discussion in archive notes. ---------- note 10 -sort-!! 04/06/76 11.20 clark lawyer Bravo for the -sort- command!! It will become a very valuable tool in many lessons. The format of the command is very easy to remember and work with. Thanks greatly!! ---------- response 1 04/06/76 11.54 michael english Can you REALLY sort common or storage directly, not having to worry about loading the CM variables? Wow! And no length restriction?! Question: Does common have to be locked to prevent two people attempting to sort at the same time, or is that automatic? Additionally, is it safe for someone to even READ common while it is being sorted, or is the sort done entirely in system workspace and chunked down over the lesson common/CM vars after it is sorted? ---------- response 2 04/06/76 12.33 fisher conn HURRAY FOR SYSTEMS! This is a feature that has been long needed! fishswine ---------- response 3 04/06/76 13.00 hinton ssu Huzzah !! When I think of the I've spent sorting... I havea lesson that will need to be updated regularly, with a new sort each time--I was dreading it till now !! thankyouthankyouthankyou.... ndh ---------- response 4 04/06/76 14.30 michael matha If you specify the ¬$ items to be three, and have linked lists, the lists are sorted incorrectly. If you specify ¬$ items to be two, the lists are not sorted at all. Because of these inconsistencies, I suggest waiting until "systems" has officially released this feature in "New Systems Features" before using it. Other than this semi-gripe, I have no complaints! This is a nice command. It works fine for length=1 ¬+ length>3. Thanks! ---------- response 5 04/06/76 14.36 luke cornell ≤≤ Slurp! ≤≤ What algorithim does it use, Judy? Or is this to be ≤≤a closely kept system secret? ≤≤ ≤≤ Luke ---------- response 6 04/06/76 15.25 k gorey batch The sort command is _great_, but could you please add a _mask_ as in the find command? ---------- response 7 04/06/76 15.44 fortner p If you can specify the starting bit in the word, and the number of following bits, why would you need a mask? The sort (and sorta) commands use a shell sort routine. It is several hundred times faster than the fastest possible tutor bubble sort.... ---------- response 8 04/06/76 15.49 clark lawyer Excuse my ignorance, but what is a shell sort? ---------- response 9 04/06/76 15.52 koning csstaff Try Knuth, volume 3. ---------- response 10 04/06/76 16.29 hinton ssu uh..what is a Knuth ? I really would like to know more about this, but I may be starting from too far back.... ndh ---------- response 11 04/06/76 16.32 michael matha fortner/p: What if you are attempting to sort on two bub-fields within a major field, with say a third sub-field between? Like this: major field sf1¬Isf2¬Isf3¬I 111 101 100 $$record 1 110 111 101 $$record 2 110 000 111 $$record 3 with the $mask$ option, we could mask out the middle 3 bits, and sort with respect to fields one and three, producing order = 2,3,1. without masking, we are reduced to doing _three_ sorts, one on subfield one, two on subfield three, to get the order desired. if sub-field ordering is important, for 8 different "1st" fields, you would have to do 8 sorts on the third field to attain your ordering. with the $mask$ option, you could get automatic sub-field ordering within the major field in _one_ sort. That's why. ---------- response 12 04/06/76 16.52 jones mcl Knuth, THE ART OF COMPUTER PROGRAMMING - VOLUME 3: SORTING AND SEARCHING. A fine book for about $20, and available in the CS departmental library here at UI (and probably most engeneering or CS libraries in the country). It has good write ups on the bubble, shell, heap, and quick sorts, and is _the_ standard reference in the area. ---------- response 13 04/07/76 08.35 michael matha I take it back: in the 11th response, the max would be 2 sorts. Sheesh. Is my face red......... Michael ---------- response 14 04/07/76 09.10 berger mfl Why are you guys picking on the poor gentleman, and trying to get him to buy a $ 20.00 book where a simple explanation would suffice? Try lesson "sorting" for information about the shell sort. ---------- response 15 04/07/76 11.21 artman uimatha Thanks, Mike, for FINALLY coming through with what everyone figured was available somewhere besides the library. eric artman ---------- response 16 04/08/76 14.13 straayer telcomc How much does this cost in tips? (Using 100 - 10 character names for reference) Russ S. ---------- note 17 mystery 04/06/76 12.10 ahasic med I've been having some strange things happening to a lesson I'm working on. First the charset characters have mysterious double lines across the bottoms of the shifted characters. Second I notice that the lesson is using a block of common in spite of the fact that there are no common commands in the lesson. A little testing has shown that the common only shows up after the charsets have been loaded. Coincidence, or some cruel game by the systems people? ---------- response 1 04/06/76 12.21 midden s 1) the charset problem is actually a problem with your terminal. 2) have you looked through the lesson for a "common" command? ---------- response 2 04/06/76 12.53 judy pso It is a cruel (non-)joke. You will be charged for charsets, linesets, and micros. The charge is reflected in the "common" portion of ECS charges. The charset charge will be a "temporary" charge, since the charset loads once and then is done. I don't know how that is going to be managed! ---------- response 3 04/06/76 13.22 clark lawyer Does this mean that the linesets and micro are actually in ECS ? or is this necessary to assure that when a lineset is called into CM, that there is some temporary storage for it? ---------- response 4 04/06/76 15.18 dave fuller uimc It means that they are in ECS during the time you use them. Charsets are not kept in, as far as I know, since the load is a one-time thing, and do not encompass the translation tables / point tables involved in the software-generated micros / linechars. ---------- response 5 04/06/76 17.23 golden s Are you sure it is a charset? We are charging for linesets now, and will begin charging for microtables and some other things in ECS, but not for charsets which only stay around a short time. ---------- response 6 04/07/76 12.27 ahasic med I was loading three charsets and a lineset together. Now that linesets are being charged for many people will go back to using rdraws if they only need a few drawings. For the sake of fairness to authors who created linsets asuming that there would be no ECS charge, an option should be provided to convert linechars to rdraws. In fact this option should have been provided before ECS charges were made for linesets. ---------- note 19 bEEP! 04/06/76 12.24 charlie browne mtc Here's another suggestion for a nice-to-have feature: When someone tries to call you via 'TALK', it would be nice to have the terminal emit a string of "beeps" somewhat similar to the audio feedback that occurs when the touch panel is being used. This would call the attention of the recipient to the fact that he is being paged. Comments, anyone? CB ---------- response 1 04/06/76 12.27 frye mfl How? The touch panel beeper is not "beepable" by the system -- rather, the panel itself beeps the beeper when a touch input is received. ---------- response 2 04/06/76 12.58 maggs law You could open and close the shutter on the slide projector rapidly. ---------- response 3 04/06/76 14.04 novak com I usually notice if someone is trying to page me anyhow. This might be useful if you were going to be away from your terminal, but.... As long as we're on the subject of term-talk-, I'd like to mention a point that I brought up awhile back, and never did recieve a statisfactory reply to. When a person who is paging you ends the page. the line tells you "end of talk". HOWEVER! If _another_ person pages you, their name is written over the previous one, BUT the "end of talk" message remains at the end of the line. Therefore, someone could be paging you, and you wouldn't know it--would just figure to call them back later. (This usually happens while editing, and the screen hasn't re-plotted). Can something be done about a full-line erase here? Or do the advantages out-weigh the disadvantages? Chris ---------- response 4 04/06/76 14.21 berger mfl Mr. Browne: There is one very pressing reason why your suggestion can't be implemented. Doing such things requires the sending of an "external" command. If this were to be done by the system, it could inadvertantly change the state of some external hardware device left on the terminal. I hope it is never done for this reason. After all, you have no way of knowing what damage you could be causing by paging my terminal, if the system sent an EXT signal to me! ---------- response 5 04/06/76 15.04 broadus css especialy when Mr. Berger sits in fishwar all the time. ---------- response 6 04/06/76 15.07 berger mfl 1. What does that have to do with it? 2. How would you know? 3. My boss doesn't think so. He seems to be happy with what I turn out. Broadus, when you start working for someone, then maybe I'll listen to you -but I doubt it. I usually ignore people who display your lack of intelligence. ---------- response 7 04/06/76 15.57 koning csstaff This feature has been suggested before, as well as a solution to the problem that Mike Berger mentions: a user option to turn such a feature on or off jus like the talk options can be turned off right now. In fact, this would be even more flexible if one could specify the actual -ext- value to be sent. I suspect the reason this has not been implemented yet is that few people have a program control beeper and systems programmers have more important and of-general-interest things to do. ---------- response 8 04/06/76 16.53 alan hebrew Why not do what has been done with other special control characters in the plato set? Make access-something a bell character and then offer some modification kit to convert the terminals to accepting this. ---------- response 9 04/06/76 17.01 jones mcl that last response sounds good, and may be a reasonable idea especially with the 'PLATO V' (VI or VII?) terminal. On the other hand, can you imagine a classroom with lots of terminals, and some bright author who writes something that dings or beeps every arrow? The result would not be the proper classroom atmosphere, and would even annoy many quiet readers of NEWS and TREK players. ---------- response 10 04/06/76 19.29 carter comm Dave Frye's response is almost correct and displays a common misconception. The beeper in the touch panel is not controllable from the central machine. The beeper however is NOT triggered when you touch the panel, ONLY when a logic signal, DATA RESUME is sent back to the touch unit by the terminal. Hopefully, on future terminals this design error will be corrected. There ARE non-beep touch panel applications, such as adaptive cursors, as well as some applications where it would be nice to beep independent of touch. ---------- response 11 04/06/76 23.22 frye mfl "...when a touch input is received..." -- at any rate, it's a shame it can't be beeped except by a greasy old finger or something. ---------- response 12 04/08/76 16.14 carter comm Note that there is no objection to the design of the touch panel, only the manner in which it is interfaced to the terminal. It would be far more useful if DATA RESUME could originate not within the terminal but at the central machine, just as other "keys" echo. ---------- response 13 04/09/76 09.46 churches iu I would be happy with a large flashing square in an upper corner because sometimes (during periods of intense consentration.....or inattention) I miss the line atthe bottom. Besides we don't have any sort of beepers. ---------- note 27 cat co. 04/06/76 13.35 puterbaugh medneta Does anyone know where the caterpillar co. keeps its plato terminals and who the person in charge is? Some help would be appreciated. T¬ ¬≤e¬ ¬≤r¬ ¬≤r¬ ¬≤y P¬ ¬≤ute¬ ¬≤r¬ ¬≤b¬ ¬≤a¬ ¬≤u¬ ¬≤g¬ ¬≤h ---------- response 1 04/06/76 13.47 a harkrader catid answered by pnote. Keep in mind that this kind of information is easily available in lesson 'network'. ---------- note 48 extstation 04/06/76 16.38 berger mfl One generally connects an external hardware device to a terminal, rather than a specific record. Therefore, it would seem more logical to make the EXTERNAL option on the user "info" page a station option rather than a "user" option. Especially now that one can no longer send externals to student or multiple records outside of the lesson that sends the externals, this option is necessary. It could be included as an option from the "version" page, and could reset to "off" when the terminal went back to "press NEXT to begin". An advantage of having the option on the "version" page is that authors could then change the option for a station without signing off. ---------- note 49 energy 04/06/76 16.38 steve smith arizona I am writing a program to teach the fundamentals of energy conservation and usage. I would appreciate information from anyone aware of programs already existing in this area. I have been led to believe that some work of this type is on-going at the U. of Illinois...... Steve Smith, Arizona ---------- response 1 04/06/76 21.34 nate iumusic Would you believe Indiana University (yes, for once we down here ARE doing some work)...contact David Churches (churches/iu)...he's got some nice, impressive material on your very subject. Nate ---------- response 2 04/07/76 12.46 moneil e uicc Be sure to list yourself and your topic in 'physnotes'. You can also check the status of other physics projects there. ---------- note 53 CAI 04/06/76 17.07 pawlan ed Does anyone know of any graduate programs in Computer Assisted Instuction or Computer Applications to Education? Many schools have famous projects in this field, but at the undergraduate level. U. of Illinois is the only school I know of in the country with a graduate program in this. I'd appreciate any info anyone can give me on this. Send p-notes to pawlan/ed. Thanks. Sue Pawlan ---------- response 1 04/06/76 21.32 siegel peer I am not aware of a graduate program in CAI at the University of Illinois. I am aware of a couple of courses in the Ed. Psych. and Sec. Ed. departments (and probably in C.S.).....but not a graduate program. ---------- response 2 04/06/76 22.51 boggs biocc Contact Bruce Hicks (signon "hicks" of "ed") Dept. of Secondary and Continuing Education U. of I. at Urbana-Champaign And/Or Dick Dennis (same info as above) ...for more information on the graduate program in CAI here at UI. Steve B. ---------- response 3 04/07/76 08.54 gilpin peer ZIP for Urbana is 61801. The professors Steve mentions are contacts for the courses Marty Siegel mentions. I believe Marty is correct that there is not a graduate program, as such, in CAI here. ---------- response 4 04/07/76 09.02 harkrader 0 The 'Graduate Programs' book says there is a program for CAI. Look under the Education section. ---------- response 5 04/07/76 09.16 anderson csa There does exist a master's degree program in computer science education that is offered through the Dept. of Computer Science at the U. of Illinois. Such does encompass CAI at least slightly. ---------- response 6 04/07/76 10.52 friedman csa There are now two courses in CAI at UIUC: CS/SecEd 317 (formerly 357), which approaches the subject from an educator's point of view; and CS 316 (a new course), which discusses primarily computer system for CAI. ---------- response 7 04/07/76 11.29 boggs biocc I'm afraid John and Marty are incorrect. There is a graduate program in CAI here, at the Masters and Ph.D. level, and believe me; I'm IN it! The aforementioned people are the advisors for it. The computer science department offers a M.S.T.C.S. (Master or Science in the Teaching of C.S.) ---------- response 8 04/07/76 20.01 carter comm Who will teach CS 316 (397) next fall? The catalog doesn't say. ---------- response 9 04/07/76 21.45 siegel peer Let's not mislead anyone.... There is not a graduate program in CAI in the same sense that there are graduate programs in "learning and instruc- tion," "evaluation," or "human development." Having a couple of courses in the College of Ed. (and one in C.S.) and one professor in Sec. Ed. who focuses on computers, does not, in my mind constitute a graduate program. It is true that you can get a Ph.D. or Masters in Sec. Ed. and have Bruce Hicks as an advisor.... but that's not a program (I don't care what the catalog says.). I should mention that there are a couple of professors in the Dept. of Ed. Psych. that are interested in CAI and computer uses in education.....Tom Anderson, for one. ---------- response 10 04/08/76 08.18 mont csa The Computer Science Department at UIUC ( Urbana ) has several people with interests in various areas related to CAI and computer science. Professors Friedman, Hansen, Nievergelt, Wilcox, and I have all been involved in a CAI project, and several MS and PhD theses have been written in our department. Some of the areas of interest are: interactive compilers, artificial intelligence, new CAI languages, generative exam systems, and my own interests in evaluation and validation of CAI. Whether you call this a program or not is probably just a semantic question. Richard Montanelli ---------- response 11 04/08/76 11.35 boggs biocc I'm not sure what Marty is trying to prove, but let's not waste any more note space on it. Sue Pawlan should get her information from someone who officially represents the College of Education, from which she can formulate her own opinions on what constitutes a "program." ---------- response 12 04/12/76 20.40 hicks ed The graduate program in _instructional_ _applications_ of _computers_ in Secondary Education is handled by Bruce Hicks and Dick Dennis and is described in a prospectus obtainable from the secretary at 3-0227. ---------- response 13 04/13/76 20.34 pawlan ed Since I wrote the orginal note, let me clarify what I wanted. I work for Dr. Hicks and am therefore extremely familiar with the program here in Champaign. I am interested in what other universities have to offer since I have already taken the two main CAI courses, Sec.Ed. 317 and 459, that the U of I offers. I appreciate those who have sent me p-notes on this subject. I hope those with further information about _other_ universities will do the same. Thanks. Sue Pawlan pawlan/ed ---------- note 55 peoplepics 04/06/76 17.29 luke cornell Does anyone have drawings of people--generally doing nothing but looking cute, that I could use for a lesson? The drawings should be rather simple, but I'm going to be too picky. thanks Luke ---------- response 1 04/06/76 17.33 michael matha Look in AIDS. At the "data" key, type "pictures". Follow instructions, type "people" or "children". The charsets therein could be converted to linesets easily. ---------- response 2 04/06/76 17.49 luke cornell Thanks, Gary, but I was looking for drawings that werent quit so "cute". They do not have to all have smiles, for example. Anyone else? Luke ---------- response 3 04/07/76 08.04 fay 0 (Gary is "michael" of "english"; "michael" of "matha" is, in his secret identity, Michael Felty.) ---------- response 4 04/07/76 12.25 luke cornell *blush* hehehehe ---------- note 58 recondense 04/06/76 17.42 sellers arizona Are any stats known about what fractional part of author cpu useage is recondenses from the editor? (Obviously this is very different from author to author, but is there information which could give perspective to the situation?) Also is there any information about the effect of editing recondenses on system resources? ---------- response 1 04/07/76 04.20 tenczar s on the average, author's spend 10 minutes editing a lesson then condense it and try it out 10 minutes...etc. this means about 3 condenses an hour... an average author uses 2 TIPS while working... which adds up t0 7.2 seconds per hour of central processor time... an average condense takes about 2 seconds...so 2 ≠ 3 = 6 seconds per hour of central processor time... so, an author uses about twice the amount of central processor than a non-author...half for condensing and half for everything else...isn't that interesting! ---------- response 2 04/08/76 01.15 sellers arizona Yes it is interesting. Thanks for the stats! ---------- note 60 merge? 04/06/76 18.03 bowery comm How about some sort (hehehe) of -merge- or -insort- command? -merge- would take a list(s) and merge it with another and/or -insort- would take one object and add it to a sorted list. Commments? ---------- response 1 04/06/76 18.50 sellers arizona ¬↑ˆI found that the -sort- is pretty fast. I had first thought that -sort- should take full advantage of the fact that the info may be in order. I found that a sort of 322 random numbers took .074 seconds resorting the same list after being ordered took .034 seconds. Calcing nc(n1)‎nc(323-n1) for a common block took .022 seconds. I wonder how this would compair with merge/sort methods? Would taking advantage of the possible ordering of the list be important? With merge/sort methods the adding of one or a few names to the end of list and doing a -sort- could be very fast. -merge- could be useful for adding single names wouldn't it? Or should this be done with a -sort- useing merge/sort methods? Merging has use other places. In transfering gnotes from file to file is an example.↓↓John (after inspiration of listening to bowery) ---------- response 2 04/07/76 07.44 j thiher amesrad What sort of sorting technique does the -sort- command use? Just curious. jim ---------- response 3 04/07/76 08.24 michael matha see the note from 4/6, title: -sort-!!, for a discussion of the method, in brief. ---------- response 4 04/07/76 08.43 j thiher amesrad Sorry gary, But -shell sort- doesn't mean anything to me and I don't feel like running down to the bookstore and buying volume three of Knuth to find out. Perhaps someone could write me a p-note if it is a lengthy explanation but I'm sure that clark and I aren't the only ignorant people who are curious as to the technique used. jim ---------- response 5 04/07/76 09.08 gilpin peer Thiher: You do not have to _buy_ the book. As the original suggestion indicated, you can consult it in a library. If you are not willing to take the trouble to consult a reference when it is given, what makes you think someone wants to take the time to write out an explanation for you in Notes? (This is not to say that anyone who is moved to provide the explanation should not do so.) Also, please consult Note ¬$55, Response 3 re michael/matha. ---------- response 6 04/07/76 11.18 artman uimatha What these people were asking for, I believe, is an on-line reference on this subject. Finally, Mike Berger did what no one else could, and referred them to lesson 'sorting', which took him about 2 lines to type. This was not a difficult process for him to do, and I am sure that this type of information was what was wanted. I doubt that anyone expected anyone else to write a lengthy p-note, but maybe, just maybe, someone might take the time to enlighten the entire PLATO community in general notes, rather than chastise them. eric artman ---------- response 7 04/07/76 11.29 michael english Too bad Mike Felty and I have writing styles that are so similar. Maybe one day I'll change my signon to "g michael" or he'll change his to "felty" -- hint hint --, but don't hold your breath. ---------- response 8 04/07/76 12.36 bowery comm ARRGGG!!! 1 response and BOOM a futile note. Typical. ---------- note 63 projects 04/06/76 20.28 matthews css when was the last time the project listing in aids was updated..... the reason that i ask is I was paging through the users list and saw a truss/s .....I was wondering if truss/s was a permanent or temporary sys prog. ---------- response 1 04/06/76 21.17 blomme s There are currently a few people from CDC working here at CERL temporarily--they are not permanent members of our staff, but they need access to our system to do their work. As far as the update time on lesson 'projects' that is given from the display reached via the LAB key from the initial display---a summary of recent changes. We are badly overdue for an update and I will try to do something about this very soon. ---------- response 2 04/07/76 18.14 truss s Actually, the answer is "both". While here of course, I am temporarily in s to allow some necessary work for the CDC Plato system to be done. While at home, I'm permanently is s as I am one of the system programmers for the CDC Plato system. ---------- note 70 please fix 04/06/76 23.56 krebs cs196 once again 'baseball' is partially malfunctioning. this time the scheduled games part allowed one game then said no more games scheduled! and it just started a new season. Please affect repairs thank you ---------- response 1 04/07/76 00.39 frye mfl Kindly direct any and all comments or criticisms about lesson "baseball" to either "grohne/polysci" or "north/ psych", the authors of the lesson -- Public Notes is not the place for this type of message. Besides, it reminds me of several years ago when I prob- ably did the very same thing... G. David Frye MFL Tag Team ---------- response 2 04/07/76 01.17 luke cornell Could this be the result of a once again stolen signon? I believe it was the last time "krebs" asked about "baseball" Luke ---------- response 3 04/07/76 09.11 judy pso Couldn't a "fix" request like this go in "gamenotes"? That would keep it out of public notes, but allow for cases where the author's signon is not known. ---------- response 4 04/07/76 09.21 michael english Thanks for the plug, Judy. ---------- note 73 -jumpv- 04/07/76 02.57 luke cornell For a long time now, I have been wanting to write a little unit that would jump to any unit-name I desire, just by giving the name. I would _love_ a jump with a variable unit tag using a variable name. Either the present -jump- could be rewritten, or a new command could be added to facilitate this; thus, -jumpv- c --- jumpv (n1) jumpv (mainu) $$ jumps to main unit using system variable jumpv (baseu) $$ jumps to base unit jumpv n1,(neg1),(zilch),(one),(too),(etc) c --- I believe this has a number of exciting uses-- especially for being able to jump to the main or base units; or at least in bebugging where going through the lesson hundreds of times gets to be a bit tedious. Lets hear it--systems? people? Luke Kaven ---------- response 1 04/07/76 08.23 rick hebrew It would indeed be nice to be able to do a -jump (n1)- but, as you say, this is not a part of TUTOR. What IS a part of the language is jumpout abcde,(n1) $$ abcde is the lesson you are * currently in NOTES: 1) This kind of -jumpout- does NOT execute your i.e.u. 2) This -jumpout- also does NOT clear your base unit (that is, if you TERM or HELP or some such to the unit that does the -jumpout-, pressing BACK after jumping out will take you to the unit you TERMed or HELPed from, unless you do a -base q-). Rick Simkin ---------- response 2 04/07/76 09.15 berger mfl But of course, Rick, that is certainly not a very elegant way to do it, and I don't believe that it is a system supported feature of the "jumpout" command. ---------- response 3 04/07/76 09.18 judy pso Rick is correct, you can do a jumpout samelesson,(unitname) Keep in mind, tho, that this is expensive! For debugging, -term-s are marvelous, but they do tend to foul up the base unit. Another easy scheme is to make a unit like this: unit testit $$ this will do your -jump-s and also term testit $$ keep your base unit untangled. base write 1. begin 2. display2 3. display5 4. quiz1 arrow 1313 store n1 ok jump n1-2,begin,display2,display5,quiz1 ---------- response 4 04/07/76 09.56 koning csstaff The -jumpout- to your own lesson IS documented in Aids, so one would be lead to assume it is a supported feature. ---------- response 5 04/07/76 12.33 bowery comm I don't think that the AIDS software is considered part of or explicetly supported by systems software. ---------- response 6 04/07/76 13.20 luke cornell I tried the command, and it is really sloppy to do. For instance, if you have a unit that does a -jumpout return- then you return to the very same unit. The kind of checking required for this must be phenomenal. Perhaps the -jump- command could be changed to be consistant with the -jumpout- features? Also, we might add a parameter as a unit to jump to if the unit named was not found. I really think this could have more uses than simply de-bugging. Luke ---------- response 7 04/07/76 13.32 travers mxc The question of variable unit names is one that has come up before. Some systems person (Tenczar?) said it would be possible to have variable unit names as a TUTOR feature, but that it would be a long time before it was implemented. I imagine there would be some sort of special construct to indicate variable unitnames: goto n1,unita,unitb,¬[variable¬],unitc or something. ---------- response 8 04/07/76 14.25 jones mcl or: unit jumpunit term jumpunit arrow 1010 write ¬0at,910¬1What unit? match n1,unita,unitb,unitc,this,that,those jump n1,jumpunit,unita,unitb,unitc,this,that,those Which has the aditional value over -jump n1- that you can have it jump only to main units and not to various computational units which make sense only if -do-ne. The variable jump reqires an implicit match anyway, and this one is simple enough. If a way is ever decided on to initiate judging without an -arrow-, then this will have all the power of a variable -jump-. ---------- response 9 04/08/76 10.45 broadus css *I think this is more what he had in mind. * unit testit write this is a test pause keys=all calc n3‎'intro' inhibit from * this keeps you from changing from information. jumpout yrlsn,(n3) unit oops write oops *¬W¬W¬W dummy unit will not be executed. unit intro from (n1),(n2) write you came from ¬0a,n1¬1,¬0a,n2¬1 pause keys=all jumpout anylsn * do a jumpout and the name of your lesson is put in from. * * ---------- response 10 04/08/76 11.12 broadus css imain imain * other tutor code..... * unit replot inhibit from jumpout mylesson,(mainu) * unit imain dataop replot * * * I use this in my lessons for a replot. * It works in most cases. ---------- response 11 04/08/76 11.50 celia pso To answer some (perhaps) misleading statements in these replies: The behavior of -jumpout- to the current lesson is a feature of the TUTOR language, and is documented in aids. I'm not sure what bowery means in his reply, but aids is part of the system, and thus "supported". ---------- note 74 course 04/07/76 03.12 stone pfw Who wrote lesson 'course', I find it to be very helpful, and compliment the systems person responsible. Scott Stone ---------- response 1 04/07/76 11.45 avner s Rick Blomme is the autho r of "course". (Rick Blomme is, of "course", the author.....oh well... Rick did it.) ---------- response 2 04/07/76 15.04 putch arizona *groan* ---------- response 3 04/07/76 18.18 daleske amesrad No, that is grohne. ---------- response 4 04/07/76 19.47 galcher uimc A "cultivated" response, I would have to assume... ---------- response 5 04/07/76 23.55 kent unl ...yeah, it sorta grows on you.... ---------- response 6 04/13/76 09.47 lombardo ed ......you mean groans on you? ---------- note 78 SHS is 04/07/76 08.22 williams shs Dear fellow Plato users, We are back!!!!!!!!!! SHS that is!!!!!!!! YEA!!YEA!!! YEA YEA YEA ---------- response 1 04/07/76 09.16 berger mfl How do you want us to correct that situation? ---------- response 2 04/07/76 13.06 dave fuller uimc It will be corrected at the end of this semester. Reliable sources say that they are finally losing their terminal for good. ---------- note 86 tutor 04/07/76 09.09 olson ced Does anyone know of a course I could take to study Tutor? I'm speaking of a classroom type setting or a workshop of a few weeks duration. Something on that order. Lesson 'aids', 'introtutor', etc..are all good but sometimes you just can't beat an instructor lecturing on the commands. Thanks, Dennis ---------- response 1 04/07/76 09.39 stull med Unfortunate that you missed a workshop just concluded by the medical information group. ---------- response 2 04/07/76 10.59 friedman csa There are now two courses in CAI at UIUC: CS/SecEd 317 (formerly 357), which approaches the subject from an educator's point of view; and CS 316 (a new course), which discusses primarily computer system for CAI. Both of these courses discuss Plato, and other systems also (they're not limited to Plato). They usually include learning Tutor. In addition, for those who happen to be taking a 100-level CS sourse, you can simultaneously take CS 196, Honors Course, which in recent years has USUALLY discussed Plato and included learning Tutor. ---------- response 3 04/07/76 12.38 golden s PSO offers training to authors who will come to Urbana for a few days to a few weeks. ---------- response 4 04/07/76 15.46 modaniel uimc There is a course offered at UICC. I do not recall its number. Call Sally Droege. 996-5157. ---------- response 5 04/07/76 15.49 rindal ee to Mr. Friedman of csa, a question-- can you take cs196 if you've already had a 100 level CS course? Is it one of those concurrent registration courses only or open to anyone who has had a 100 level CS course? I could use an easy 'A' course. ---------- response 6 04/07/76 16.28 alan hebrew Then stock up on some ee courses! ---------- response 7 04/07/76 16.34 friedman csa CS 196 is only open to those concurrently registered in another 100-level CS course. We don't want advanced people in there; it makes it harder for the beginners, for whom the course in intended. ---------- response 8 04/07/76 17.19 parrello uimatha The U of I also offers a PLATO section of LL382, in which students are taught the fundamentals of authoring. ---------- response 9 04/07/76 20.32 rindal ee What is LL378? ---------- response 10 04/07/76 20.35 rindal ee <<<<<< 10. I feel that people should be warned of this problem before they spend a great deal of time trying to find errors in their own software. P.S. I've been told that the problem is being worked on. ---------- response 1 04/07/76 19.48 andersen s Hmmm.. Indeed it turns out that it doesnt work for more than 20 characters. (actually doesnt work for cases where more than one word boundary is crossed) Will be fixed soon. ---------- response 2 04/08/76 16.12 bowery comm The problem Moll stated was with words >10 not >20 chars. (just in case there was a genuine miss-understanding) ---------- response 3 04/08/76 17.38 moll rhrc I was using a sort that crossed 2 word boundries however, even though the differences in the strings were in word ¬$2 and word ¬$3 was null, so the system comment holds (as was documented in aids). ---------- note 150 bufferfull 04/07/76 18.17 kaufman uimc System programmers: the name buffer for autosignons is full again. Joe Kaufman ---------- response 1 04/07/76 19.30 blomme s The person mainly responsible for this area was asked a week or so to increase the size of the buffer or fix this some way; we will try to see that this does get corrected soon. Sorry. ---------- note 152 endlesson 04/07/76 19.02 jr lewis mtc In the system router when one uses an: end lesson Why does the message have to say "You have completed all of your assigned lessons" and then just sit there. When students who are unfamiliar with Plato see that they get up and leave the terminal. Couldn't it say "Press Next." Or is there some way I can sign the student off without him having to press shift-stop or some other confusing method. Jeff Lewis ---------- response 1 04/08/76 20.22 chabay s This isn't a function of -end lesson-. To get this message, you must have assigned the student to an individual sequence, and specified that he should not be able to go anywhere when the sequence is completed. (I'll add a comment about SHIFT-STOP.) ---------- note 166 greek 04/08/76 00.30 slayton arizona Attention classical hellenists!!! There is a lesson pretty much completed which is a vocabu- lary drill of about 200 ancient greek vocabulary words taken from the author Herodotus...if you are interested in learning some ancient greek words try the lesson (greek1) and report any questions, complaints, queries, gripes, etc. to slayton of arizona via p-notes... $greek≤≤≤≤≤$*****≤≤≤≤≤greek≤≤≤≤≤*****≤≤≤≤≤greek≤≤≤≤≤ ¬↑ˆ$DS ---------- response 1 04/08/76 10.55 broadus css Naughty, naughty, musn't let them letters flash! ---------- response 2 04/09/76 17.51 slayton arizona why not? ¬↑ˆ$! ¬↑ˆ$] ↑$? ¬↑ˆ $! ¬↑ˆ $? ---------- response 3 04/09/76 18.25 parrello uimatha Broadus, you are not helping the situation any. Animation is officially frowned upon in Public Notes, and for that matter in many group notes files. These files (and their archives) will some day soon be printed, and animation makes a printout into a joke. A long time ago, we were told to cease and desist from animation in Public Notes. or the system may be forced to make it impossible. If they make it impossible in here, it will be impossible in "pad", too, since "pad" uses the same driver. Thus we would appreciate it if you refrained from doing animation in Public Notes. ---------- note 168 T option 04/08/76 08.14 ragins wright Regarding the 'T' option from the author mode page .... Is it possible to include the day and date along with the time? Like this : 07.54 CST Thursday, April 8 I find myself reaching over to adjacent terminals and pressing next in order to find out the correct day/date .... ... or checking lesson 'crash'. ---------- response 1 04/08/76 08.17 fay o Shift-N works with a minimum of hassle for me. ---------- note 174 whos there 04/08/76 09.50 d zweig iu Does anyone have have a cheap method of keeping track of who is in you lesson at whatever time you decide to look? I guess this would use common and somehow have the name re- moved upon leaving the lesson. Anyone done this already? ---------- response 1 04/08/76 10.15 berger mfl I have a "users" list in lesson "routines" that tells who is currently using your lesson. I don't know if it is what you want, but you may inspect block "users" and try it out. ---------- response 2 04/08/76 11.21 curly iu I quickly wrote a routine which I believe does what is needed (with a backout option too!). Take a look in 'iu7' (no inspect code), block 'see'. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 3 04/08/76 12.37 nate iumusic Good greif...who HASN'T written a routine such as this? I've got one which with changing a few defines can drastically change the way it's stored (whether circular or manual delete, whether you want each time in or just the last time in), time-zonable, soon-to-be-printable, blah-blah.....Enough said Nate ---------- response 4 04/08/76 13.02 olson ced Lesson 'library' would be the place to check for what you want and to see if someone has done it already. Dennis ---------- response 5 04/08/76 18.39 roper siu By the way, possibly the simplest way to find out who is in your lesson is to request a STOP1 condense. This will produce a page telling you how to find out who is in your lesson. Of course, I don't know how this is on system resources... Quetzal ---------- response 6 04/09/76 10.25 d zweig iu 1. I did check "library"......no good.... 2. Yes, you can tell by doing a STOP> and trying to condense. What are the posibilities of ever being able to use the systems routine for doing this for our own purposes? ---------- note 176 baby boy 04/08/76 10.24 golden s Jim and Beverly Ghesquiere, who recently left Urbana for Baltimore, today became parents of a son, Paul Michael. To the best of my knowledge, the six-pound twelve-ounce child has not yet requested an author record. We wish all three Ghesquieres long and happy lives. ---------- response 1 04/08/76 12.39 nate iumusic Give him a few months....supreme being/p may exist yet! Nate ---------- response 2 04/08/76 13.03 olson ced Best wishes to Jim and family... Dennis ---------- response 3 04/08/76 13.19 sellers arizona Best wishing to the new kid and parents..... May he never give Golden trouble in moonwar. ---------- response 4 04/08/76 13.34 errol kka Where's my cigar? .....Congratulations to the proud parents! errol ---------- response 5 04/08/76 14.14 woods med whatever possessed him to take a new baby (to be) to bawlamer? ---------- response 6 04/08/76 14.16 swenson a How about a middle initial of P. (for Plato)? Congratulations Jim! ---------- response 7 04/09/76 10.14 judy pso "bawlamer" because Jim is working for a new CDC Plato installation there. ---------- note 196 ecology 04/08/76 14.49 sharon matha I have heard that there are plato lessons which deal with ecology and/or energy use. Does anyone know where such lessons might be found? ---------- response 1 04/08/76 15.17 puterbaugh medneta Try lesson 'survival'. It contains a list of some ecolessons. Terry ---------- response 2 04/08/76 15.17 jim g reading I don't have any lesson names but there is a signon "esp" of "esp" which gets you an index of environmental studies programs. The title page says to contact "petak" of "medneta" or "esp". Hope this helps. ---------- response 3 04/08/76 18.30 petak medneta Lesson 'ecology' or 'esp3' contains a series of lessons completed and under development. If there are any questions, comments, complaints, fan mail etc please contact me in pnotes, the gnote file provided, or call me at the number listed in the ecology lesson... Steven Petak ESP director, medical student, and all around good guy... ---------- response 4 04/08/76 19.49 luke cornell Contact Bruce Morriss (morriss/eiu). I believe he is writing a lesson on usage of energy resources. Luke ---------- response 5 04/09/76 10.31 sharon matha Much thanks for all the help! ---------- note 197 editinsp 04/08/76 14.58 berger mfl An interesting, unannounced "new feature" of the course records editor: When one is in inspect only in a course that uses "mrouter", one can add a module to the (empty) instructor file. You can't edit the module, but you can it, and be- come last editor of the instructor file. ---------- note 200 ch error 04/08/76 15.26 ruane ll382 Here we go again - Error in loading charset - lesson: calc22 charset: integral errorword: 047555555555555550000 ---------- response 1 04/08/76 17.38 midden s Drats, guess I'll have to fix the copy-a-block routine. ---------- note 201 copy? 04/08/76 15.50 jim g reading Has someone just changed the action of the copy key at the systems level? The change is for the better. Before, encountering an o0 in a line of text (common¬Dsource) would stop the copy action. Now it seems to insert a long string of o55 where the o0 was and allow the copy to continue. Example o01020300010002000003 (abc¬oa¬ob¬o¬oc) (¬o=o00) in common converted to source and then in replace mode attempting to use the copy key yields abc_____¬o¬o (_=o55 ¬o=o00) ---------- response 1 04/08/76 16.32 jim g reading Found out that SHIFT COPY also exhibits this new "filler" action but it takes more than 1 press of copy1 to get to the end of the text line that has those nasty o00's in it. ---------- response 2 04/08/76 21.32 koning csstaff Some experimenting reveals that COPY does not stop on a single o00 but requires at least 2 in a row. One would presume this is one of the reasons why _two_ o00s are required as the end of line delimiter in the Tutor editor. ---------- response 3 04/09/76 09.25 jmk pso I don't know if it is a permanent feature, but an o00 character in the copy buffer currently indicates that the next 6 bits are to be interpreted as the length of a string of blanks to be inserted. For example, if the string o0102 0304 0005 0607 1011 occurs in the copy buffer, it will produce the string abcd fghi Two o00 characters in a row signal the end of the copy buffer. This is independent of the fact that 12 0-bits at the end of a word indicate the end of a TUTOR line. ---------- response 4 04/09/76 13.02 berger mfl Of course, that could be a useful, disk space-saving feature! ---------- response 5 04/13/76 13.19 white p This action of the COPY key will probably remain, but is very definately not a Tutor feature, it is just something that happenes to work. It was put in to allow the COPY key to work while editing something known locally as a Scope Squoze File. Multiple blanks are stored in this packed format to reduce file size. By the way, the number of blanks is one more than the number following the o00. ---------- note 202 catalog 04/08/76 15.55 olson ced Lesson 'media' is a catalog of all instructional resources available at the Rockford School of Medicine. Anyone is welcome to look at it and comments are encouraged. We will also give out information on the material, what audience it is aimed at, etc...and possibly arrangements can be made to borrow items. Questions about the catalog can be asked via pnote to me or via the comments section in the catalog. All comments will be answered the same day (except on weekends) Thanks and hope the catalog helps in some way... Dennis (olson/ced) ******** ---------- response 1 04/09/76 08.40 helper park interested in seeing some of the lessons...any chance of getting in...we are working on a project for maternal child health lessonsfor nursing..would be glad to exchange 'use' priveleges.. thanx, jean helper ---------- note 203 errors 04/08/76 16.05 bowery comm Line error problems at all IC and Ames stations. Problems are not localized to Ill. (I wrote this with little feed-back) ---------- response 1 04/08/76 16.16 woods med ditto in oklahoma ---------- response 2 04/08/76 16.21 d williams unidel To use a system-defined word: ARRRGGG!!! Really, though, aren't these constant line errors kind of fun? And I thought I hated games!! ¬↑ˇ↑≡≤↑≠Dan≤≤≤¬≤I[≤'≤"]≤ˆˆ_ (This note took 20 minutes to write!) ---------- response 3 04/08/76 16.38 blair m this appears to be a microwave problem with the phone co. we have notified them and they are working on it. please be patient. ---------- response 4 04/08/76 17.01 bowery comm It is getting better. ---------- response 5 04/08/76 17.10 bowery comm Its getting worse again. ---------- response 6 04/08/76 17.22 ka lutz usc still having frequent errors here right now. ---------- response 7 04/08/76 18.27 miller amesrad bowery told me how to "beat" the line error blues.. just hold the red (error) switch in and type 1 handed. (you may not be able to see what ya type, but it does get entered without (too many) errors) ---------- response 8 04/08/76 18.37 sacco conn Still many problems here in Connecticut at 18:30 cst... (in spite of system message to the contrary...) joe ---------- response 9 04/09/76 00.13 frye mfl Line error blues? Hmmmm..... ---------- response 10 04/09/76 13.34 sellers arizona arizona is also bad....at one point all three lines were unuseable... ---------- note 212 gnoteindex 04/08/76 17.13 putch arizona It would be a good idea to list the notefile -groupnotes- on the HELP page in gnotes as being the index to other gnote files. Those who never saw the original note might not even realize it exists, and those who did see the original note can easily forget exactly what the name was. ---------- response 1 04/08/76 17.59 stone pfw I think that there was a discussion about listing non-systems notesfiles in the help section on groupnotes in notes, and this no doubt applies also to the help section available in any groupnotes. I think that the outcome was that since systems cannot insure it's accuracy, they cannot have it there.... Scott Stone ---------- response 2 04/08/76 18.07 clark lawyer Thanks for the plug!! I would agree that it might be a good idea to list notesfile -groupnotes- on the HELP page (not too surprizing that I would agree though..) ---------- response 3 04/08/76 19.35 blomme s If and when such a listing becomes a system supported and maintained feature, then the name of such a file or simple means of access to it will be provided. ---------- response 4 04/09/76 13.38 sellers arizona Thanks Rick for letting us know system view. ---------- note 214 lerr sugg 04/08/76 17.25 bowery comm The system staff might think about taking stats on the number of error correction keys coming in and including them in lesson "crash" as the ¬l parameter (Poisson) or perhaps graphic information which would be more easily understood and contain more information. Further, this information could be made dynamically available to a psuedo terminal which could allert hardware personel in the event of a large-scale loss of transmission integrity, giving information as to location(s), ¬l, etc... This would be better feed back for systems trouble-shooters than so and so of so and so at such and such saying that he/she is(n't) having line errors. ---------- response 1 04/08/76 22.28 avner s Information of this nature is currently provided to the operator via hardware monitoring machinery for the local microwave sites. For remotes it is a problem inasmuch as open lines can give the appearance of a high-line-error rate. Procedures for reporting degraded service in an understandable manner are being developed and your suggestions are appreciated. Al Avner ---------- response 2 04/09/76 11.35 williams m I have designed just such a device for the operator's terminal. The hardware is now being debugged and should be ready next week. m. j. williams ---------- note 222 Almost 04/08/76 18.38 putch arizona Can something be done about the *almost full* mechanism in gnotes? It seems to me that it should tell you when there is NO room left for a note _before_ you write the note, not after you try to store it. When it means *full* it should say so instead of saying *almost full*. ---------- response 1 04/08/76 19.14 michael cornell Well, maybe there is room for a short note but not for a long one...and then you go ahead and write a long one. Aha, you say, then why don't they just limit the number of words I can use in the first place? It sounds like a good idea...how hard would that be, Kim? M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 2 04/09/76 00.11 frye mfl You should probably ask dave woolley, since he wrote it. Aside from that, suppose there is space left for ˇ¬n2 notes, so it says "almost full" and you go ahead and write a note or response. While you're hunting and pecking, some nimble-fingered touch typist or two come in and respond to other notes -- you're left holding the bag, not to men- tion several minutes worth of detailed effort down the drain. Probably the wisest thing would be to _S_ave the note -- that way, in case it WAS full, you'd still have the stuff.... G. David the Nimble-Fingered ---------- response 3 04/09/76 00.23 curly iu However, when the file-director options say "-1 blocks left", it would be nice if the system did not beat around the bush.... ---------- note 227 Graphics 04/08/76 20.17 kemp nursing Attention all computer graphics freaks. Those of you that will be in the Chicagoland area on the dates of the 22↑ˆnd ↑ˇ to the 24↑ˆth↑ˇ of this month, there will an event held at UICC. The event is called: Second Electronic Visualization Event The featured attractions unique to this happening are: GRASS (_GR_aphics _S_ymbiosis _S_ystem), a real-time, interactive graphics system. The Image Processor, an analog computer constructed for real-time modifications of video images. The Emu, for the production of sound synthesis. (cont'd) ---------- response 1 04/08/76 20.18 kemp nursing Performances will be at 8:00 p.m. each night. Along with the performances, there will be talks and demos on the technology for the production of educational animations on Thurs. and Fri. ¬5 2-5 p.m. Jamming and discussions of matters, technical and aesthetic, are held at all times. For details call: 312-996-4621. Location: The Rotunda, SES East 829 W. Taylor Street U. I. C. C. ---------- response 2 04/09/76 13.41 sellers arizona sigh...right up my alley....wish arizona were closer so I could be there. ---------- response 3 04/09/76 14.38 corey m But how can Tom do it without a wire-unrap tool? ---------- response 4 04/09/76 14.53 kemp uicca Paper clips work with just the right touch...... Where is the unwrap tool Jeffie. Lar ---------- note 235 note error 04/09/76 03.53 gutfreund css execution error in lesson notes unit notekill last command calcc 2nd command error type index error join sequence edgo 3 was trying to edit my response to a note in a group note file. For more specifics contact me via personal notes. By the way would it be possible to install a save option on the execution error page. At least so that a p-note to the author would contain all the info given on error page if not some of the student variables. ---------- response 1 04/09/76 08.13 mike b cornell This has been suggested before, with some favorable responses. Someday maybe.... M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- note 236 records 04/09/76 04.56 koning cs491 Bug in 'records'... If you are copying records from one course to another, and enter a name that already exists, you get the message "another student with the same name". After getting this message, typing a name that exists in the copied course but not in the course being copied to causes the message "name not in course". ↑↓Paul Koning ---------- note 238 line error 04/09/76 08.32 fay o *** REMOTE USERS *** When you experience communications difficulty, call 217-333-7466 _while you are on line._ The hardware people will have a much easier time of track- ing down the problem if you contact them directly at the above number. ---------- note 240 sec. codes 04/09/76 08.45 ke burkhardt mtc Would it be possible to have all security codes associated with a sign-on to be cleared each time a person signs off the system? We use some of our sign-ons for demo purposes and it seems that if a person knows that sign-on, he can go right into the last lesson (or, in this case, a course) and edit it without knowing the change code. ---------- response 1 04/09/76 08.58 david cerlcc Just hit shift-s- on the author mode page and enter some garbage before you sign out each time. ---------- response 2 04/09/76 09.05 ke burkhardt mtc And what if you forget to do it, or the last person in the lesson doesn't know to do it? It seems to me that it wouldn't be that hard to have the system clear all the codes when you sign off. ---------- response 3 04/09/76 09.14 michael english But for the majority of people who use their signons exclu- sively, for non-demo purposes, it would mean extra work. ---------- response 4 04/09/76 09.23 maggs law The ultimate solution would be to add one more option to author records to allow auto-scrambled and non-auto- scrambled author records. ---------- response 5 04/09/76 09.30 m swenson mtc An option in the course editor to have the change code scrambled whenever an author signs off the system? Perhaps have the scrambler be the default case? ---------- response 6 04/09/76 09.46 travers mxc Fine, but non-scrambled should be default, as most author signons are used by 1 person. ---------- response 7 04/09/76 10.05 k mast p More options? Yuck. (Un-official system response.) I suggest that this situation can be solved by eliminating the 'demo' records and giving each person a unique author record. ---------- response 8 04/09/76 10.23 judy pso One argument for non-scrambled signons, in addition to convenience, is that the less frequently a security code is typed by the non-nimble-fingered-ones, the less chance there is of it being observed. ---------- response 9 04/09/76 16.07 putch arizona Why leave the scramble/noscramble decision up to the course director? Why not leave it up to the author, via Shift-I or something of the like. That way, the those authors who are "less-nimble-fingered" could set it for 'noscramble' and the author using his signon for demos could set if for 'scramble'. ---------- response 10 04/10/76 05.02 daleske amesrad If the author signon is the changer of the option (whether in I or anywhere), then the unscrupulous person (about whom this problem is being discussed) would just set the option to unscrambled. Everyone would think it was being scrambled but in reality... John ---------- response 11 04/10/76 14.01 wagle iu Why not put it on the "I" option off the author mode page? (it WOULD be a nice feature to have...) ---------- response 12 04/11/76 14.50 artman uimatha For the reason just described: Then one user of the record could set it to non-scramble and all other users would assume that it was being scrambled. Worse than not having the option at all. (Why scramble? Wouldn't zero-fill work just as well?) eric artman ---------- response 13 04/12/76 10.35 mont csa A second for Judy's comment. The less often I have to type in a code, the more secure it is. ---------- response 14 04/12/76 15.38 putch arizona The problem of an unscrupulous user covertly setting the option to -unscrambled- can be solved by adding a line to the author mode page which would state the condition of the option when one first signs on(it need not be shown after the user has once seen it.) ---------- note 246 gnotes bug 04/09/76 09.30 p cohen med Error in group notes (I think): I was trying to store a response to a note with an "almost full" in effect. Pressing SHIFT-NEXT resulted in the "note stored" message, and I breathed a sigh of relief. But when I then pressed NEXT, I was looking at a different response, and my own response had disappeared! The notes file director had been writing a note and apparently clearing out some old notes at the time. Did this have anything to do with the disappearance? --paul ---------- note 250 phenomenon 04/09/76 10.00 a appel uni If you would like to cause a touch input without getting the screen all greasy, rub your feet on the carpet (the one at FLB works well), and then touch the screws on your keyset. The resulting static discharge will cause a touch input. ---------- response 1 04/09/76 10.24 jim g reading Very funny! Your trick can also "lock up" the terminal. All FLB or any large classroom needs is people playing static zap and then walking away from the terminals, leaving the next user mystified. ---------- response 2 04/09/76 12.48 silver ve Right. MOSTLY it locks up terminals. ---------- response 3 04/09/76 13.07 berger mfl 1. Commercial destaticizers are VERY expenisve. 2. They don't last long. 3. It IS possible to damage the terminal this way. Please don't come to the language lab just to "zap" our terminals! If anyone has some relatively easy and cheap solution to the problem (short of removing the carpet), we'd be in- terested in hearing it. ---------- response 4 04/09/76 13.45 sellers arizona Ground the exteriors of the terminals correctly and your static problems will go away. ---------- response 5 04/09/76 13.46 luke cornell Be Japanese! Ask the students to take their shoes off before they go to work on a terminal. (your lead filled pipe should take care of those who dont comply, Cyber)) Luke ---------- response 6 04/09/76 14.14 kaufman uimc We have been living with static problems for 2 years. Since our plato room has both a carpet and a year-round air conditionner, there is no way we can avoid static shock. To avoid the problems of static, we have had our terminals modified so that you only have to press the red error switch and white clear switch to unfreeze the terminal. (Your maintence person can easily perform the conversion.) We also spray our carpet with a commercial anti-static fluid once every month or two during the winter, less often during the summer. One quart of Staticide covers up to 500 square feet and cost $5. As for damaging the terminal, I have never heard of that before. Can you tell me what happened? Joe Kaufman ---------- response 7 04/09/76 15.16 pogue uimatha Another solution you might consider is increasing the relative humidity in the room. This has always worked at home and I think it might be worth considering here! Mike ---------- response 8 04/09/76 15.18 volpe mflu Another solution is to get rid of the terminals. tv ---------- response 9 04/09/76 16.24 gauss ed CARPET???? We at the law school should be so fortunate!! ---------- response 10 04/09/76 16.56 d sherwood uni Luke (/cornell): Public Notes is not the place for jokes about the MFLTT's lead-filled pipes. Confine it to pad. ---------- response 11 04/09/76 17.34 alan hebrew How about rubber gloves? About the hardware people modifying the terminals so that all one needs to do is press the red and white switches, I think your hardware people re playing a little trick on you. All you ever have to do is press those two switches. ---------- response 12 04/09/76 17.46 kemp uicca We have a similair problem at a non-PLATO center. When things really get bad, you can arc to a device about 3 inches away. But we found a cheap, but somewhat smelly solution. There are several "anti-static" laundery softers on the market, priced about 79c≤/ a can. We prefer the "Cling-free" brand ourselves. The biggest problem is the mist that lingers in the air, so we spray just before leaving at night. The smell lingers a day or two, but it isn't unbearable... Moondancer PS: By the way, the results are quite good, and the "fix" lasts about a month and half...... ---------- response 13 04/10/76 10.23 berger mfl Grounding the terminal doesn't help. The problem is that static charges don't always seek a ground. Sometimes they manage to hit a circuit that is above or below ground. Pressing the white and red clear switches has always cleared up the problem. Unfortunately (1), the students don't know that, and (2), it makes the student lose his display. I can't document any terminals damaged as a result of the static charges, but one should always keep in mind that thousands of volts maliciously applied to a terminal can't be good for it! We HAVE run through a number of RAM cards at the language lab. This might be one of the reasons. Incidentally, the character set is the first to go when a static charge hits our terminals. ---------- response 14 04/11/76 22.01 d williams unidel For us, the CLEAR keys do not always work; sometimes we must turn the terminal off (and wait 30 seconds, because a quick off/on is said to be damaging). But we solved it. See note "sparks", dated 4/11. (¬$349, unless it gets reinitialized.) ¬↑ˇ↑≡≤↑≠Dan≤≤≤¬≤I≤['≤"]≤ˆˆ_ ---------- response 15 04/12/76 12.20 larry north p Use the unannounced feature "inhibit static". ---------- response 16 04/12/76 15.47 wells ee maybe one could apply that to notes... ---------- note 257 site rest. 04/09/76 10.33 deiss phar Would it be possible to be able to specify the times during which the temporary site restriction list is in effect? Would it be possible to have several each scheduled for a different time slot of the day? ---------- response 1 04/09/76 11.06 travers mxc To rereiterate: also, howabout an option to backoff all users who don't meet site restrictions? Pretty please? A Hostess 'fruit' pie to whichever system programmer does this first. (Must come to Chicago to claim.) Deiss's idea isn't bad either. ---------- response 2 04/09/76 12.29 harkrader o Len Kawell and I have been trying to get the ideas of people who are involved with site management for some time. If you have an idea or are interested in some of ours, and you are involved with site management, send a pnote to Len or I. Since we are approaching the end of the term here at U of I, we haven't been able to get a lot done yet. Be assured that we are planning. ---------- response 3 04/09/76 13.47 sellers arizona prime time/non-prime time restrictions seem to make a lot of sense. It has been a long time since I have had site access so maybe this has been done, but at the time it would have been useful. ---------- note 258 gnotes 04/09/76 10.37 d zweig iu The topic came up a while back about allowing users to load a micro into gnotes. Discussions was yes and no, with both side having good points. Suggestion: Allow the gnotes director to opt for: 1. No micros allowed 2. Micro aaaa from lesson bbbbb auto-loaded 3. Variable load Systems notes would probably be ¬$1, some foreign language notes might be ¬$2 and "pad" might be ¬$3. This way, maybe everyone will be happy. ---------- response 1 04/09/76 13.52 koning cs491 ...and perhaps 4 could be fixed micro loaded and a -force micro- in effect at the insert-replace arrows. ---------- response 2 04/09/76 16.57 d sherwood uni what kind of notes would use that? ---------- response 3 04/09/76 17.06 koning csstaff Wold use what? The -force micro- is something that, I suspect, would be used by Prof. Friedman (he uses it in lots of notesfile type things, see cscomments). ---------- response 4 04/09/76 22.19 broadus css pad ---------- response 5 04/11/76 14.58 artman uimatha For anyone who has missed the point: A specific load with a -force micro- is used (usually) to prevent animations in notes. Then the nice keys that do funny little things to the terminal don't work any more. (aawwwwww!) eric artman ---------- response 6 04/12/76 15.41 sellers arizona Re force-micro notes: Greek, Russian, Aribic, and Hebrew gnotes? ---------- note 265 plato site 04/09/76 13.31 parker arizona I was just looking into lesson 'network' and found that there is a map indication of a PLATO site in the state of Mississippi, but there is no corresponding listing in the state index. AND, the state of Texas has only one address listing for the two indicated sites. I am interested in finding out about this information. If anyone could drop me from p-note on this I would be appreciative. Mike Parker ---------- response 1 04/09/76 14.15 olson ced Contact greve of o for information Dennis ---------- response 2 04/09/76 21.13 parker arizona Sorry, I misread the indication on the map. There is a site in Alabama but not in Mississippi. However, the point remains that there are 2 sites indicated in Texas but only 1 address. Thanks again, and sorry. Mike Parker ---------- note 276 SD?? 04/09/76 14.51 gillies css Some thing is messed up in the new SD editor. I stuck me there an I had to back myself out at another terminal. at fist I thought it was an auto break but I was wrong I could not get out by myself. Also I was in SD a different time, I pressed '-' to erase by accident, then -back- and then 't' to place text and when I tried to type it came in mode erase... what is wrong????????? Don gillies ---------- response 1 04/09/76 15.19 michael cornell Sounds to me like you are having problems with static discharge...see Public Note ¬$250 of 04/09/76 "phenomenon" for more information. M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 2 04/09/76 15.20 luke cornell Tell us more about what you did to try and back out. A common problem for users of SD, is that they are used to pressing -BACK1-, rather than -BACK- to get back to lesson -edit-. Luke ---------- note 278 print char 04/09/76 15.02 meers wright What are the best characters to use when listing a charset? The default o- combination doesnt give enough contrast while *_ (asterisk space) doesnt give you a hint as to how far over or down the character starts in relation to the 8≠16 grid. I guess the greatest contrast would come from the largest character for a dot, and the smallest character for the space (the period doesn't tend to show up too small on a print tho). ---------- response 1 04/09/76 17.00 d sherwood uni how about o.? ---------- note 283 SSBUG 04/09/76 15.51 feugen mfl Bug in SS. I tried entering a line, then pressed next. The arrow no longer moves down for the next line (at least for me). Upon returning to the block (BACK1), the code which looked like the following on the actual page: ljfkjsd≤≤≤≤≤≤≤ljsfkj;jsf≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤ljsfkjljsdljsdflj ... looks like this: at 1705 write ljsfkjl ljdfkjdf ljfljdfljljsdflj * Is this your goof, Tim, or is it simply a mean vicious sysprog plot to get us all to use S_M_? ---------- response 1 04/09/76 15.54 midden s Tim Halvorsen has fixed this bug. ---------- note 287 books 04/09/76 16.40 carter comm books The intent of this file is to allow the PLATO user community to both access and author book reviews. All users have read/write status. Everyone is encouraged to contribute. Since many reviews will require more than 100 words, the response chain may be used for multi-page reviews. In addition, discussion of the reviews provided is encouraged in the appropriate response chain. Reviews should be thoughtful, but peices of the quality that might appear in the "New York Review fo Books" are not demanded (if you put that much work into it, by all means publish it there). ---------- note 297 plasmapanl 04/09/76 20.58 lawrance medokla1 A most curious thing. When I light up my entire screen with orange, I can read the display of "trek" which apparently is burned into the screen. As this is most certainly a popular game at other sites I wonder it any of you can re- produce this. It may sound silly, but does excessive use of any one display cause damage to the plasma screen? I un- derstand that it is for this reason that the Press Next to Begin is erased and rewritten in a new location every few minutes.... David ---------- response 1 04/09/76 21.16 mike b cornell Extensive "exposure" to a particular display does indeed permanently affect the panel. If you try this with a terminal used extensively for editing, you will see that the top line of the block display has etched itself into the screen. As far as I know, no real damage is done. The "Press NEXT to begin" is not replotted every few minutes. If a terminal is left on the "Welcome to PLATO" page, it will be backed out to the "Press NEXT" page after about five minutes. The position of the message on that page is, I believe, randomized over a few dots--I know the top line in the editor use to be. Anyway, after fifteen minutes or so, the "Press NEXT" message is erased. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 2 04/10/76 02.48 ruane ll382 And another thing is, the system" of course, sends the terminal back to the press next page from the welcome page, but the terminal itself erases the screen if it does not recieve any input in a certain amount of time. This, I believe, is why the system must send that space to the lower right hand corner of the terminal every so often when you are signed in. The newer panels are supposedly not going to need this automatic erasing. ---------- response 3 04/10/76 05.14 daleske amesrad The timing is approximately five minutes for terminals numbered 263 and below, and approximately 30 minutes for terminals above 263 (i.e. the newer terminals). It is also suggested that one not fill up (orange out) the entire screen, as this too has deleterious effects on the terminal (especially the power supply feeding the screen). The writing approximately a little less than five minutes is indeed to keep a terminal from self erasing itself. Before this option was installed, one would be working in the editor or reading a note and copying down some of the ideas, to find the screen erase! Then, one would have to replot it... John ---------- response 4 04/10/76 10.27 berger mfl Mike - it does indeed do permanent damage to the plasma panel, and should be avoided. The quality of your display will deteriorate tremendously after you "burn in" enough of a display! ---------- response 5 04/10/76 14.12 mike b cornell Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Of course, turn- ing on the entire panel is damaging. What I meant was, the etching of, say, the top line form the editor display does not appear to seriously affect the performance of the panel. Filling the screen to see what's etched into _your_ panel is bad, and should, as stated, be avoided. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 6 04/11/76 10.49 lawrance medokla1 I was not aware that filling out the screen was bad. However, I HAVE seen some graphics demonstrations that do just that. It is apparently not common knowledge that oranging out the screen could damage the power supply or panel. I have not seen a discussion of this in AIDS and would certainly appreciate something, if this is true. It really isn't my intention to burn out the panel my first two months on the system because I wasn't aware of the ter- minal's limitations. Some of us seem to agree that burning anything (i.e. trek) into the screen is rather dysfunctional and I would be interested in knowing if this represents the onset of a potentially serious problem. David ---------- response 7 04/12/76 10.08 woods med if turning every dot on is contraindicated will one of you experts please advise the author of [systems?] lesson testor (ref: option "d") and probably also you should make the author(s) of lesson dither and dr. bitzer (ref: option term "invert") aware of this terminal damaging practice... please, could we have a systems reponse on this issue?.. ---------- response 8 04/12/76 10.58 judy pso ...... now we know what they do in Oklahoma . . . ---------- response 9 04/12/76 11.12 woods med well, i'm glad someone does.... i discovered that our panels all have a permanent (or is it semi-permanent) copy of trek on them while demonstrating the capabilities of this machine to some rather high level v.i.p's.....the "discovery" was via term "invert" in lesson dither...as a novice on plato with a very limited budget to keep it going in oklahoma, i knew that i could not identify funds to replace 4 plasma panels...i reacted by going directly (and privately) to the medsite director... meanwhile, back in the terminal room the matter got placed in public notes...since it is here, seems to me that a lot of folks could benefit by an input here from an authority on the subjects of: (1) plasma panel burning and (2) the use of painting a full screen with orange dots... ---------- response 10 04/12/76 11.13 artman uimatha As to the permanent damage: If you don't mind working through a fishnet, then a display "burned in" to the screen isn't serious. On the other hand, it would be serious for me, and maybe for other users of your terminal. It won't cause the terminal to explode, if that is your definition of "a serious problem". eric artman ---------- response 11 04/12/76 12.45 dave fuller uimc Mainly, people, it should be obvious that the burning in process is a gradual one, and unless repeated exposure is given to certain areas of the panel. Woods, your reference to "testor" is somewhat startling. Testor is the lesson USED to test the terminals. I would seriously doubt that someone would be inane enough to sit there for hours on end, watching the screen fill. As for lesson dither, I again seriously doubt that anyone would use that lesson so much as to harm the panel. Personally, I don't see that a panel can be damaged perceptibly through normal use - look at the operator's terminal in 166 CERL for perhaps the most extreme case of usage. Beyond snide comments to the new (and rather re- mote) Oklahoma site, I would like a response from someone in hardware (not systems) who KNOWS plasma panels and how to hurt them. ---------- response 12 04/12/76 13.27 woods med sure am glad that shooting from the hip is not a phenomenon which is indigent to oklahoma.... dave, if you will read again the replies by daleske, mikeb and yers truly, you will note that NO reference was made to an "inane" practice of spending several hours watching the screen fill up with orange dots...the statements made sug- gested that ANY use of full screen is injurious to screen and power supply [quote, mikeb/cornell, "Of course, turning on the entire panel is damaging..." ..still quoting mike, "Filling the entire screen ....is BAD (emphasis mine)....] anyway, dave, thanks for the kind words and sorry about that request for systems--instead of hardware--response...what i meant--and needed--was an authoritative response.. ---------- response 13 04/12/76 17.29 dave fuller uimc My pants get worn out from my pistol at times, I think. I nudged a couple of people here at CERL, and perhaps by tomorrow we should have a definitive answer to the question at hand. In any case, I have seen panels with their glass shattered because the screen "flooded" because of hardware failure. It was surmised that it took 30+ or so minutes for the wires to heat the glass enough to shatter it. I recall that Tony, the master repairman, said that it'd be okay to turn all the dots on for a minute or so, but no longer, unless you want to risk thermal overload some- where in the panel or the supply. Hardware, where are you? Perhaps we have hit upon a means to check what terminals are _really_ used for. (now watch the game writers put a line in all their programs at the same place at the editor's) ---------- response 14 04/13/76 00.18 broadus css leaving the screen lit sometimes starts to melt the polaroid sheet. ---------- response 15 04/13/76 15.33 jmk pso I talked to Tony, terminal maintaineur extraordinaire, and he said that turning on all the dots is in fact good for the panel (because it burns dots into the screen evenly) as long as you don't leave it that way too long. "too long" turns out to be a relative thing, but his notion was that an hour or so was a reasonable upper limit. Factors such as ambient temperature vary the tendency of the panel to shatter. There is also the possibility that turning on the whole screen is hard on the power supply in old terminals. ---------- note 301 SD error 04/09/76 22.52 warner iu Error in S_M_ (or SD as it is now called...) When drawing points, press R to remove a point. The point will be removed, but the next point added will be treated as a skip and will become the first point of a new -draw- command in the code. This happens even when the point removed is the first point in the -draw-, and believe you me, that -draw- command sitting there with no arguments looks silly! (It looks silly to the condensor, too...) Is this a diabolical plot to get us all to use SS? ---------- response 1 04/10/76 05.42 midden s yes, that makes sense to me. Also, I can't get that problem with condense error, etc to mess up... What's up? ---------- note 306 cond cstop 04/10/76 08.08 dave infe I'd like to see conditional condensation some day. -ccstop expres- would act as -cstop- if 'expres' is true when the condensor encounters it, and would be ignored↓otherwise. ↓similarly for -ccstart expr-. Example: define nutz=1 $$ 0,1↓ccstop nutz¬=0 segment,listel=.....↓* defines for list representation of data↓cstart ccstop nutz=0↓ array,....↓* same stuff as sparse array↓cstart↓* ccstop nutz¬=0 * routines using lists cstart ↓ccstop nutz=0↓* routines using arrays↓cstart ---------- response 1 04/10/76 08.28 dave infe The above code would use either lists or arrays,↓according to value of 'nutz', without extra overhead. It would be possible to have several -ccstop/start- sequences interleaving thruout a lesson; since the tag to a conditional condensation directive is an expression, these sequences can be mutually sensitive. This would enormously facilitate pooling of routines by author-groups thru -use-. I think that the required changes to the condensor should be almost trivial (since nothing new needs to be remembered during condensation), and cannot think of any way this could jeopardise system integrity. Thanks for listening. Dave ---------- response 2 04/10/76 12.16 michael cornell It sounds like a good idea to me (been requested before). Of course, only defined _constants_ and expres- sions thereof would be permitted -- however, it would also be nice to have "global" sysvars (tactive, ptime, mallot, etc.) too. Seems to me though, that the reaction has been "We would have to condense your lesson to find out whether to condense your lesson!" M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 3 04/10/76 12.18 maggs law Obviously it would be impossible to use stored condensed code for any lesson that used this feature. Thus wide usage of it would increase the "waiting to condense" time not only for the lesson involved, but also for everybody else. ---------- response 4 04/10/76 13.20 dave infe Please note that all the preceding objections apply only to the revised version suggested by Michael (making system VARIABLES available at condense time). His is a wholely independant proposal, and a radical one indeed -- with overwhelming disadvantages. ---------- response 5 04/10/76 13.52 parrello uimatha It was once said that when one edits a lesson, the binary (stored condense code) is destroyed. Since one would have to edit one's lesson to change the value of a constant, this would not be a problem. ---------- response 6 04/10/76 14.32 t little research How about allowing conditionals on student variables and common variables? That way we could tailor our lessons to fit the needs of each individual student. While we are at it how about router variables and system defined variables like proctim and mallot and...... Todd ---------- response 7 04/10/76 15.44 parker arizona Another thing that is interesting about this idea is that -use- code for lessons could be allowed to change based on the values of defined constants. This would allow an author to format more flexible code that is adaptable to many lessons through the simple change of these defined constants. Another important advantage is the fact that only the code that is needed is condensed which may save on precious ECS. I have thought about this idea for a long time and it really would be nice. Mike Parker ---------- response 8 04/10/76 20.19 david hebrew You are correct, parker. It can be VERY useful. In B6700 ALGOL, you may set up your own compiler options as follows: $SET BUGFIND creates a compiler option called BUGFIND and turns it on. $POP BUGFIND turns the option off. We can now use this option to conditionally set standard compiler options like: $SET OMIT which omits text until it finds a $POP OMIT continued in next response. ---------- response 9 04/10/76 20.21 david hebrew Example: write here is normal code $SET OMIT=BUGFIND write this code will be omitted if BUGFIND was set previously $POP OMIT write this code will be condensed $SET OMIT=NOT BUGFIND write this is omitted if BUGFIND was not set previously. $POP OMIT write back to normal. For a real application of all this, please see the next response. ---------- response 10 04/10/76 20.26 david hebrew I recently wrote a routine in ALGOL which other programmers could -use-. (It simulates the EVAL functin in SNOBOL.) If the -use-r wanted to have predefined constants available, he would say: $SET CONSTANTS use eval If he wanted predefined variables, he would say: $SET VARIABLES use eval Inside my code, of course, I had a bunch of $SET OMIT=NOT VARIABLES and $SET OMIT=NOT CONSTANTS to give the -use-r just that subset of the features that he needed. ---------- response 11 04/10/76 20.32 david hebrew It should be clear that there is no conflict between two -use-rs of this code who want different options; the appropriate text is inserted into their lesson only; as with the normal -use- command there will be two versions of the condensed code when both lessons are around. I should also point out here that the option names (such as CONSTANTS) have absolutely no relation to any declarations made within the actual code itself; they are merely "option names" which control how the compiler will look at text, and these names disappear after compilation is done. In short, the idea is sound, it does work, and provides you with an unbelievable wealth of power when you want to provide -use-able routines. ---------- response 12 04/10/76 23.27 jones mcl An other approach used in CSP/30 FORTRAN: (the CSP/30 is a 'minicomputer' with a 16 bit word and a 120 nanosec. instruction time, weird machine). Lines may begin with a blank or digit in which case they are always compiled. They may begin with A,B,C, ...Z, in which they are compiled conditionally. The C option is normally turned off so that comments are not compiled, and the other letters are free to be used for conditional compilation. $on A,B $$to turn on compilation of lines marked A or B $off A,C $$to turn off compilation of comments and A A 120 ... $$this line will only be compiled if A is on So again, we see that the idea is not really new to higher level languages (being ancient in assemblers). ---------- response 13 04/11/76 05.46 t little research And I thought I was being funny to help this absurd suggestion on its way. sheesh. Todd ---------- response 14 04/11/76 11.21 david hebrew Todd--this is NOT absurd. Consider: You have a long and complicated sequence in your lesson, in which you have inserted a great deal of debugging code. If we can "bracket" all the debugging code with a pair of $SET OMIT=NOT DEBUG $POP OMIT then a normal condense will condense everything but the debugging code. If the lesson ever goes wrong (and it will), all you need do is insert this at the top of your lesson: $SET DEBUG and recondense--your debugging code will "come back". When the lesson is repaired, remove the $SET DEBUG and recondense--the lesson is back to normal. This seems far easier than putting "*"s on all the debugging code and removing them later. (Ever had to do that?!) ---------- response 15 04/11/76 21.46 frye mfl This is, as eisenberg puts it, definitely NOT "most absurd" -- in fact, a form of "conditional condense" more flexible than "cstop/cstart" would be extremely useful. G. David ---------- response 16 04/11/76 22.17 t little research I'll have to excuse myself for saying that the original suggestion was absurd. What I should have said was that the discussion that followed ranged from fair to inane. Who cares how conditional compilations or assemblies are done on other machines? Something along this line would be nice but I think the systems software staff is completely capable of implementing an adequate method for allowing this (certainly not with anything other than defined CONSTANTS inside the lesson.) T. Jeffery PS I think there are a lot more pressing problems though, like a new computer, and finishing up the agreements with CDC. ---------- response 17 04/11/76 22.18 dave fuller uimc I am glad Todd speaks for the systems staff now. ---------- response 18 04/11/76 23.18 clark lawyer Todd is not being totally off base. Systems has no doubt read this note and its replies. They do have other things going on that are apparently more pressing than this problem. Let's just try to remember the systems staff for what they do to make our lives on PLATO easier. A Fan ---------- response 19 04/12/76 10.22 p cohen med in the meantime, as they used to say, "try partial condense" --just trying to be helpful paul ---------- response 20 04/12/76 11.07 judy pso I have strong reservations about conditional -stop-s and -start-s. We had conditional condensing on Plato 3, largely because of the extremely limited amount of disk space. It was a dreadful headache! If you want to condense in or out large chunks, you might as well have two lessons, or do partial condenses. If you are planning to include/ exclude small chunks, forget it! It is not worth the bother! A more severe limitation: I don't think the system could support "variable" condenses. We have trouble enough getting ECS when there is only ONE version of a lesson, let along 14! And there would be tremendous overhead involved in deciding which of 14 versions should be entered,deleted, etc.etc. ---------- response 21 04/12/76 11.13 frye mfl I hate to sound like George Carter, but... Throughout its history, this system has progressed almost solely through the efforts of various courseware groups and concerned individuals to GET the commands and options they needed to design everything from highly structured courseware to fast games. They have stuck with PLATO for two reasons: 1) there was nothing else comparable, and 2) the possibilities of expansion were endless. If Mr. Little is going to speak for the systems staff, or even for himself, he'll have to remember the rest of us, some of which actually want or need the feature requested. We have even volunteered to write such features ourselves, in some cases! Of course, there are important things to be done, but to downgrade this type of request for that reason is irresponsible.↓↓A hardened veteran, G. David Frye ---------- response 22 04/12/76 11.17 frye mfl Also, in answer to Judy, the quickest answer I can come up with is -- if you don't like conditional condensing, you don't have to use it (with due respect, of course)! And I would think that there could exist at any one time only ONE version of a lesson...namely, the last one condensed, by whatever method. Sorry if I sounded stuffy back there -- sometimes we all get incensed over seemingly trivial matters. G. David ---------- response 23 04/12/76 12.52 ahasic med It seems that everyone has now come to a sensible solution. That is, one should be able to cause an extensive change in the condensed code of a lesson with only a small change in the editor. I do this all the time. Just locate all of the conditionally condensed code in units in blocks separate from the always condensed code. Then -do- the conditional units wherever they are needed among the constant code. which reference units within them will cause condense errors but will not be condensed. ---------- response 24 04/12/76 13.36 travers mxc How come I never got 23 replys when I suggested this? It definitely would be useful, mainly for -use-d code, so there wouldn't be any problem there with multiple binaries. And obviously there will only be one version of a lesson condensed at any one time, so the conditions that exist at condense time are going to determine what users get even if they enter later (in answer to judy.) The last time I brought this up, systems said it was possible and would be done someday, but it was low priority (natch). But how about a system comment on whether system variables such as tactive or mallot could be accesed at condense time? It would be very useful if possible. ---------- response 25 04/12/76 16.04 white p No, variables could not be accessed at condense time, neither system defined variables or user variables. Also, the expressions that could be used would be fairly limited for a while. Very few functions are evaluated at condense time. Yes, this has been talked about on the system level, and personally, I think it should be added to Tutor. ---------- response 26 04/12/76 17.34 travers mxc I was under the impression that the condesor reduced all constant expressions to single constants in defines and other expressions. I don't quite understand why it couldn't do it in a -cstop- also. I realize there must be difficulties in accessing system variables at condense time, but maybe there could be some special tags for prime-time or ecs crunch situations. Such a capability would take some strain off system resources by not condensing a primetime-restricted game if someone tries to enter it during primetime (as an example). I don't really know how difficult this would be, but I think it would be tremendously useful. ---------- response 27 04/12/76 17.36 dave infe In reply to Judy's objection, proliferation of binaries: If it seems necessary, this kind of option could be confined to -used- code; and whenever a -ccstart- or -ccstop- is encountered in a 'main lesson' (non-use-d), it would be condensed either as a comment or as the corres- ponding unconditional directive, whichever seems most logical (almost certainly the former default: all 'conditionally-condensed' code being condensed). ---------- response 28 04/12/76 17.49 frye mfl Thank you, Larry. ---------- response 29 04/12/76 21.50 carter comm Thank you, Dave (Frye). I agree with the Frye viewpoint and see nothing wrong with his response, either in substance or style. Conferencing is obviously a valuable tool for compiling lists of alternative implementations. If the "switches" alternative was listed, I missed it. In RT-11 Fortran one can specify a 'd' switch which will compile debug code(those lines beginning with a 'd' ,clearly TUTOR would require a special character) by a '/d' specified during the compile command string. I submit this simply as another alternative, and have not thought through the merits of all methods. and have discussion proves is that PLATO has little use for Jean Sammett's well known book, 'Programming Languages' since users willing supply dozens of past implementations; more I am sure that Ms. Sammett compiled in her classic book. ---------- response 30 04/12/76 21.52 carter comm All of this could have a major impact on computer science education, a point I have been making for several years. ---------- note 310 mrouter 04/10/76 11.28 b sherwood s We welcome discussion in groupnotes "sysrouter" concerning your suggestions on changes to the system router. Please tell us what features you need in running your classes. We welcome comments both from present users of "mrouter" and also from curriculum groups who cannot at present use "mrouter" for one reason or another. Bruce Sherwood Ruth Chabay ---------- note 318 jumpout o 04/10/76 14.41 dave infe Strange behavior by the system last changed at 9:29 last night. -jumpout thislesson,(n1)- where n1=0 gives, not an execution error, but a hangup on the -jumpout- command, causing the *WARNING - TOO MUCH PROCESSING* message. ---------- response 1 04/10/76 22.33 harkrader o That warning is shown when you are jumping out in an infinite, or near-infinite, loop between 1 or 2 lessons. ---------- response 2 04/12/76 11.00 frye mfl Where was the -jumpout- command? If it was in the i.e.u., then for sure you'll get the infinite loop! ---------- response 3 04/12/76 11.42 friedman csa Shouldn't...-jumpout- to your own lesson does not re-execute the ieu, but acts only as a conditional jump. ---------- response 4 04/12/76 17.54 dave infe The behavior of -jumpout mylesson,(0)- [yes, this is legal exactly as written] seems to be as follows: In all cases (regardless of whether the -jumpout- is in the ieu, units reached via NEXT or -jumpout-, or units reached via -do- from any of these) the -jumpout- is to the unit physically JUST AFTER THE IEU. Notice (in -step- mode) that this is the ieu's main unit, from which it is, in effect, -join-ed. But you can't -jumpout- to unit 'ieu'... ---------- note 320 gnotespace 04/10/76 17.14 bonnie matha I have a question about a groupnotes response: in "routenotes", my 1st response to ¬$105, I wrote and stored clap clap clap Later I saved it. When I went into that response later, the space left=0. I deleted 1 clap, and had 1 word left (and could only write 1 more word.) Since storing the 2-clap response, the space left is again 0. However, if I save the response, it takes only 2 words. Why is this response filled? I can't replicate this, but the response is still there for a p-person to see. ---------- response 1 04/10/76 17.36 warner iu The GNOTES system allows you 100 words maximum when writing a note....but when the note is stored, the amount of space available becomes equal to the actual size of the note as soon as anyone writes anything after it(note, or response to any note). So, when you used 3 words you got 3 words and no more! To do otherwise would mean juggling everyone's notes around that come after yours. ---------- response 2 04/10/76 17.45 bonnie matha No one has written a reponse after my note. When I edit this response, I SHOULD see "space = 98" with 18 lines left. (If you try to edit your own response which is followed by a response, you are told that you can't edit it.) ---------- response 3 04/10/76 18.05 clark lawyer If a note is stored after your response you then get only the size of the note. ---------- response 4 04/10/76 22.24 woolley p Right. If a note or a response to any note is written after you store a note, then when you re-edit it you will only get the number of words in the original. However, if yours is the most recent note or response, you are allowed up to 100 words no matter how long the original is. ---------- response 5 04/11/76 02.15 bonnie matha Thanks ---------- response 6 04/12/76 10.30 p cohen med Bonnie, Here's something I figured out all by myself: If you have stored either a note with no response to it or the last response to a note, and you want to add some more words, but the editor says there is no more space, simply _S_ave the entire note, delete the entire note, write a new note (or response), and _I_nsert the _S_aved lines back again. Voila! You've got all 100 words to work with, and no one's the wiser! --paul ---------- response 7 04/12/76 11.43 friedman csa But, you waste the space which stored the original note or response. ---------- response 8 04/12/76 15.57 sellers arizona Except the wasted space is recovered when someone else writes a note. ---------- response 9 04/12/76 17.13 woolley p NO IT ISN'T! ---------- response 10 04/13/76 02.42 sellers arizona hmmm! Intuition fails...also I had thought I had deleted that response...oh well...I was hasty...sorry ---------- note 321 Seminar 04/10/76 17.17 danielson csa SEMINAR NOTICE Professor Peter Maggs University of Illinois Law School Legal Protection of Computer Software Professor Maggs will discuss the legal protection of commputer software by means of copyrights, patents, and trade secrets. He will consider the points of view of (1) the author who wants to protect his own creations and (2) the programmer who wants to know what he can legally take from the works of others. Tuesday, April 13, 4:00 pm 115 Digital Computer Lab Sponsored by Student ACM ---------- response 1 04/10/76 18.35 nate iumusic Anything possible to be available for remote-site people who would most likely find this seminar quite informative, but can't get up there? (outline, cassette, what-have-you). Thanks! Nate ---------- response 2 04/11/76 13.17 mike b cornell Yes, I would very much like to see some material on this. Any change of getting something on-line for us poor, remote site users? M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 3 04/12/76 09.41 boas unidel Can a copy of the conference and proceedings make it to Delaware for interested personnal? It certianly would be appreciated! Thanks. ---------- response 4 04/12/76 14.25 miller nrc Hear,Hear! Could someone _please_ make a copy or condensa- tion of this seminar available? jay miller --------- response 5 04/12/76 14.48 jim g reading You might drop a pnote to "maggs" of "law". He is the man with the lecture notes. I don't know offhand what kind of bribe would get him to "platoize" his talk. ---------- response 6 04/12/76 15.43 maggs law I have a long term project underway to create a series of PLATO lessons covering much of this material. Meanwhile I would have no objection if anyone wants to tape my talk. ---------- response 7 04/14/76 08.49 danielson csa The talk WAS taped..however, at this writing I don't know what the quality of the tape will be. Should know later today, so check here for information about how to obtain copies, etc. Ron --------- response 8 04/14/76 09.46 danielson csa Tape quality seems to be very good on side 1 (the first 30 minutes of Professor Maggs' talk), but side 2 has a lot of background noise, although the talk still comes through. We will make copies for anyone who will send us a blank C-60 cassette, and a stamped, self-addressed envelope for use in returning said tape. Send blank tapes to: Student ACM Department of Computer Science University of Illinois Urbana, Illinois 61801 We will wait until April 30 before making copies; any requests received by then will be filled; any arriving later will be returned. Ron ---------- note 331 oh well 04/10/76 21.41 nate iumusic In the "weirdos which is causing nobody much harm" department. I have a 2-part lesson with a common-block as block 2-a (and there is space for new blocks). Pressing shift-BACK from block 2-b, then pressing -BACK- (to get to block directory) plots the double- asterisk at 2-g (2-g doesn't even exist). Ok, so I'm picky! However, to sweeten it up, I also noticed that you don't get stuck in common-blocks anymore. THANKS MUCH! Is that "announced" (or prime-timed) yet? Nate They've even fixed up charset blocks. What next?!? ---------- response 1 04/11/76 00.22 s zweig iusn Here ya' are nate. Hope this enlightens you..! ******** *response* 03/30/76 19.48 fortner p For leslists and linesets, you may now press DATA besides NEXT to edit. NEXT1 and BACK1 now active at non-source blocks. Changes will be in effect next system reload.... ******** Ʃteve ---------- response 2 04/11/76 10.29 nate iumusic Believe it or not I _DID_ read that note. Oh well, time to use the universal excuse (which gets me out of anything!): "I'm a musician." (anybody say we had any sort of a memory in our brains?) gulp! ---------- note 335 eraserror 04/10/76 22.39 john haefeli orl The following code generated some rather strange results. Apparently, -size .25- alters the effect of -erase 2- (in this instance). I assume this was not intended ... try some other -at-, -erase-, and -size- tags. unit test doto 1,n1‎1,32 at 100≠n1+1 write xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 1 size .25 at 2010 erase 2 Thanks, edo ---------- response 1 04/10/76 23.37 jones mcl my understanding is that the erase command is changed by the size command, that is it tries to erase an ammount that corresponds to the space used by text in the current size. This makes sense even, consider a unit that will erase a nice rectangular space for a message (best done with the erase command!) and then write that message; I think most users will agree that the unit should work no matter what -size- is in effect when the unit is -do-ne. ---------- response 2 04/10/76 23.42 elston rhrc It does indeed seem strange. For -size- smaller than .281247 when trying to erase 2 characters it will erase _63_ spaces. For -size- smaller than .562497 when trying to erase 1 char it will also erase _63_ full characters. It may be that this is a known bug which is just ignored or it may be due to the present version. The only case that I can see it being a problem in is the one of size=.5 when ersing one character. Most of the other cases would not be used because of speed or readability. Of course, above the given sizes erase works as stated. 2c≤/ ---------- response 3 04/15/76 19.02 haefeli block Has anything been done? ---------- note 349 sparks 04/11/76 21.45 d williams unidel About the hung terminals due to static electricity, mentioned in "phenomenon" (note 250)...isn't this the solution(?): Two of our terminals OFTEN got hung up after a spark. We had heard that the standard remedy is to make sure the keyset casing makes contact with the screws, presumably for grounding purposes. ("Scrape off some paint.") BUT this had no effect. Apparently, whatever inside the keyset is supposed to be grounded _isn't_. So we externally (with a wire) connected the keyset casing to the terminal's casing, which _is_ grounded. This worked absolutely. Static discharges are ignored, and the terminals haven't been hung ever since. You must ground the keyset (sellers said "externals"), not just the terminal itself. ¬↑ˇ↑≡≤↑≠Dan≤≤≤¬≤I≤['≤"]≤ˆˆ_ ---------- response 1 04/12/76 08.19 avner s And, for the sake of safety, make sure that the terminal itself is grounded. The installation people have found many cases where a 3-pronged wall socket did not have the "ground" actually grounded (even in new buildings). Unless the socket is grounded, a 3-prong plug on the terminal is no help. If you don't have grounded outlets, get someone to provide an independent ground for your terminal. ---------- response 2 04/12/76 12.50 dave fuller uimc I have been an independant ground several times, and believe me, it's no fun. Are the terminals UL approved? ---------- response 3 04/12/76 13.42 errol kka What kind of wire should we use for grounding the keyset to the terminal? ---------- response 4 04/12/76 15.48 berger mfl Electrical wire works best. ---------- response 5 04/12/76 19.41 avner s The terminals are UL approved, but that doesn't help much if they are installed in a non-code wired building (i.e. one that doesn't have its "grounded" outlets grounded) or uses outlets which are so worn that the ground is poor. This is a real problem in hospitals (according to the safety engineering literature) since many of the UL approved outlets fail to maintain good contact after a bit of wear. It's bad enough to be zapped by your terminal but when your heart-lung machine lets you down..... ---------- response 6 04/13/76 00.43 daleske amesrad Either Double Ought (heavy duty ground wire for the safety minded person) or a more reasonable grounding strap (av- ailable at most amateur radio shops) should provide a good ground. Be sure that what you are grounding to, IS a good ground! Dont hook into a lightning pole grounding strap or into electrical pipes. Good grounds are best made by running your own... John (these rules are basically for 1KW stations and might be breeched a little... heh heh) ---------- response 7 04/13/76 12.40 silver ve 1. Terminals with the newer keysets give the most shocks. 2. One can loop some bell wire around the phillips screw nearest the opening for the line going back to the terminal, and loop the other end of the wire around one of the screws on the plug on the other end of the line. This seems to solve the problem, without adding to the problems of connecting and disconnecting the keysets. The wire can be wound around the data line, so that it isn't a bother. ---------- response 8 04/13/76 16.21 d williams unidel Exactly what we did, too. It's a minimum of trouble. ¬↑ˇ↑≡≤↑≠Dan≤≤≤¬≤I≤['≤"]≤ˆˆ_ ---------- note 355 touch mess 04/11/76 23.52 clark lawyer We just got our touch panel recently and so I of course went through aids to find out the different "touch-related" commands. WHAT A MESS!! For the -touch- command, the format is: (1) co-ordinates of touch (2) a comma (3) x-boxes long (4) a comma (5) y-boxes high. For "touch" in -keytype-: (1) co-ordinates of touch (2) a semi-colon (3) x-chars long (4) a comma (5) y-lines high. Will these two (and any others which I missed) ever be consistent? It would seem that they should be consistent for ease in use. I think the format for -keytype- is more workable myself. Any comments from other touch users? ---------- response 1 04/12/76 09.40 mailman ustaf We see again the results of a language that has been put together piecemeal? ---------- response 2 04/12/76 09.53 silver ve The reason stated for the difference in the -keytype- tags was that many users didn't like the touch area tags, and the keytype tags represented an alternative, based on the dimensions of the screen rather than the characteristics of the panel. I happen to like the keytype approach ---------- response 3 04/12/76 11.43 judy pso We quite agree! -touch- is a mess, and it is certainly partially due to the evolutionary growth of the system. A contributing problem was that touch panels were once so scarce that there were almost none available for use by the systems people--so they neither observed nor understood the problems. Often suggestions for new commands are received with cynicism--as you surely have noted! Here is an area where good suggestions are needed. What kinds of touch commands would make programming easier for _you_/ ---------- response 4 04/12/76 13.03 clark lawyer There would be two formats which I think would be very workable: (1) use a 16≠16 grid and make tolerances in what would be boxes (2) use regular coarse grid and have PLATO convert it to the nearest touch area (tolerance in chars and lines). One advantage of (1) is that it gives easy and exact reference to the touch-grid. This would be very easy for new authors to learn. An advantage to (2) is that it makes it very easy to use variables in the touch command without having to worry about the "n≠4+1" formula currently in AIDS. I prefer (2) myself. Comments from other users? ALSO, will it ever be possible to eliminate the enable command? PLATO could automatically enable the touch panel with any touch, or keys=touch command(??) ---------- response 5 04/12/76 14.06 b sherwood s As is noted in the aids writeup of the -pause- command, a "pause keys=touch" enables the touch panel (and disables it after you touch the screen). This is a fairly recent improvement to TUTOR, so don't feel badly if you missed it! ---------- response 6 04/12/76 14.18 clark lawyer I had not missed it, my point is that you still need to -enable- for a -touch- or -touchw- command? Will this always be necessary (maybe there is a use for this that I don't see)? ---------- response 7 04/12/76 15.08 larry north ve You need the enable after arrow and before the judging commands because: 1) The arrow disables the touch panel. 2) The touch and touchw commands are not executed until after judging is initiated. Touch input cannot initiate judging unless the panel is enabled. ---------- note 357 news 04/12/76 08.40 golden s A truck loaded with computer equipment arrived at CERL this morning. Included is said to be a CDC 6500 computer, several 844 disk drives, and various other pieces of periph- eral equipment. These will be installed during the next week or so. ---------- response 1 04/12/76 08.50 nate iumusic ALL RIGHT!! ---------- response 2 04/12/76 09.03 ruane ll382 To those who have seen the truck - Isn't it amazing how many things Mike is involved with?? ---------- response 3 04/12/76 09.20 parrello uimatha That was a different Berger! We know, because they wouldn't believe Mike when he told them the delivery destination had been changed to his apartment. RS ---------- response 4 04/12/76 09.25 mcneil a uicc Geee, just like xmas. ---------- response 5 04/12/76 11.01 alan hebrew By the way, was any of it addressed to me? ---------- response 6 04/12/76 11.04 guerra uimc Well, it isn't EXACTLY like christmas... We didn't get it for free... not nearly... ---------- response 7 04/12/76 12.49 dave fuller uimc I wish they would be a bit quieter moving the blasted stuff, though. Sounds like they're bouncing the 6500 down the hall... ---------- response 8 04/12/76 13.07 galcher uimc And the way they kick those boxes marked -- 844 -- down the hall... Must mean whatever comes in those boxes is in 844 small pieces... ---------- response 9 04/12/76 13.36 bowery comm First the good news. ---------- response 10 04/12/76 15.50 berger mfl I don't know anything about it... (but you should have seen what the truck contained BEFORE it got to CERL.) ---------- note 383 inversion 04/12/76 12.38 ahasic med Ii would be nice if we could obtain the mirror image of linedrawn figures. Presently to make the mirror image of a linecharacter I will have to edit the linechar copying every point on paper and then will have to make a new line char inverting either the x or y coordinates. I'm sure this could be done much easier on a systems level. Since the arguments of linechars and rdraws are already multiplied by size and rotate it should be easy to implement, perhaps with an optional argument on the rotate command or by allowing negative arguments on the two argument size command. It would certainly save a lot of work and a lot of disk space. Tom ---------- response 1 04/12/76 13.50 banks mfl Or an option in SD to reverse the drawing? ---------- response 2 04/12/76 15.51 berger mfl John Eisenberg once wrote something that would allow you to design a figure in a linechar-like editor and turn it around. I don't remember what lesson it was (is) in. ---------- response 3 04/12/76 16.26 mcneil a uicc It would be nice if a negitive size flipped things. ---------- response 4 04/13/76 14.26 sacco conn This would indeed be a nice feature. I would make many displays easier to create and manipulate. Joe ---------- note 402 Almost? 04/12/76 15.34 putch arizona Attention: wooley/p In note ¬$222 I mentioned the fact that gnotes file -ifthen-, which is presently displaying the warning message: *Almost full*, will not allow a note to be written and will not tell you this until after you have written it. The responses indicated that maybe a shorter note would be accepted. No way! I attempted to write, as a test of this explanation, a note that contained only a * and had only a * for its title. I was informed that there was not enough room. When I was returned to the index, I still received the message: *Almost full*. I ask then, what possible purpose is being served by displaying *Almost full*, when the condition of the notefile is not significantly different from *Full*. ---------- response 1 04/12/76 16.18 woods med to repeat here a question asked in another note file after having an identical experience: is a note file that is "almost full" anything like a woman who is "almost pregnant"?????? ---------- response 2 04/12/76 17.19 woolley p The "almost full" message is not meant to impart any quantitative information. It's purpose is merely to warn you that (1) the file needs to be re-initialized and (2) if you want to write a note, you'd be better off writing it in your own file first and then transfering it, since you may not be allowed to store it. ---------- response 3 04/13/76 02.50 sellers arizona How about some quanitative information? The 80: warning in pnotes has worked out excelently on our pnotes file. ---------- response 4 04/13/76 09.34 woolley p It's not that simple, since there are two separate factors which limit the available space. Quantitative information is available to the notes director in the director options. ---------- response 5 04/13/76 10.27 curly iu Ah....The quantitative info availiable to the director is all in terms of BLOCKs......Now a block(322 words, as you all know) is i pretty big thing to measure by. How about some quantitative info in terms of WORDS? curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 6 04/13/76 11.32 hobbs politics But I have to agree with putch, The -aLMOST FULL- is really meaningless. Would it really be that difficult to change things so that if the file was ALMOST FULL, a person wouldn't be allowed to even write the note? ---------- response 7 04/13/76 20.20 blomme s The meaning has been explained (the note director should re-initialize the notes), but that meaning is perhaps not clear from the message. The warning is provided slightly in advance of the point at which all further note writing is impossible since that seemed useful. ---------- note 414 df codes 04/12/76 17.03 iezek ames When you enter your change and inspect codes in a datafile, you do not get the customary random XXXXX's. Instead the arrow is a regular one and anyone can see your codes as you enter them. This necessitates an extra precaution. This should be easy to fix! Mark Iezek ---------- response 1 04/13/76 17.08 iezek ames Could someone please respond to this note???!!! It has been more than a day since I wrote it and it will soon fade into oblivion, Mark Iezek ---------- response 2 04/13/76 20.26 blomme s Thank you. Your note has been read and this has been known for some time; hopefully some day someone will take time to look into it. ---------- response 3 04/14/76 10.24 iezek ames Thank you. ---------- note 425 ex error 04/12/76 21.29 d zweig iu Wow...How much do I get for this????? EX ERROR: lesson---notes unit-----destroy cur state--reg last com---block 3rd command bounds err Was deleteing a very long line..... ---------- response 1 04/12/76 21.31 d zweig iu repeatable... ---------- response 2 04/13/76 12.18 frye mfl Throw him a fish... ---------- response 3 04/13/76 12.22 bowery comm Irresponsible response ¬$3. ---------- response 4 04/13/76 14.31 incorvia aero verry interesting ---------- response 5 04/13/76 21.59 woolley p Should be fixed now. ---------- note 427 dotsssssss 04/12/76 21.45 lekas css Try this: go into lesson machlang as a student. Let the first page plot, press next. let the second page plot, press next, press 'TERM' "terms". After the page has plotted follow the instructions. Interesting eh!? TL ---------- response 1 04/12/76 21.58 snellen medneta After going through this routine, one is returned to the " terms" page and the number of people who have entered the lesson is displayed--that's interesting, I suppose, but hardly remarkable. Is this what you were trying to point out? --JES ---------- response 2 04/12/76 22.04 frye mfl He somehow managed to stumble on an old block of code that I put in many many moons ago. Believe it or not, I wrote that lesson 2.5 years ago when I was in (shudder) "cs109". The error is now fixed. It was simply a slow-plotting but beautiful "random doughnut" display I wrote. See me for details as to how to use it if anyone is interested, which I doubt. G. David (former "cs109" fish, along with a few other minor signons...-sigh-) ---------- response 3 04/13/76 12.26 bowery comm And now a "computer groupie." ---------- response 4 04/13/76 13.42 groupe ll382 I resent that ---------- note 434 Varian 04/13/76 02.20 kawell 0 The VARIAN printer is once again working(?). Datasets can also now be printed (even *list special). A few things still don't work: page ejects and half-spaces, half-back-spaces, "¬≠", "¬≠". I will try to get these fixed as soon as my school work lets up a bit. As usual, if you notice anything else that doesn't work, write me a pnote. Len ---------- response 1 04/13/76 14.23 friedman csa GREAT!!! Thanks VERY much! ---------- response 2 04/14/76 08.26 berger mfl Where are the prints hung to dry? ---------- note 437 calcloops 04/13/76 07.49 schreiner csa Schlechte Beispiele verderben gute Sitten: (bad examples spoil good customs) Case in point: Tenczar's example of a loop in the first response to the 'getloc' announcement. Or should the use of 'calc'...'branch' be so much more efficient??? PS: the command seems clever and useful, though. Thanks!! ---------- note 438 getloc 04/13/76 08.59 jim g reading Re the new 'getloc' command, the code below doesn't work as expected. Am I expecting too much? unit test define word=n1,xˇ1=n2,yˇ1=n3,xˇ2=n4,yˇ2=n5 zero n1,150 size 2 arrow 1002 ok calc word‎0 1 word‎word+1 getloc word,xˇ1,yˇ1,xˇ2,yˇ2 branch xˇ1,1done,x draw xˇ1,yˇ1;xˇ2,yˇ2 branch 1 1done pause jump test ---------- respone 1 04/13/76 09.06 jim g reading Also just discovered that a very long response (ie. past the right side of the screen _almost_ underlines correctly. The only mistake is the first word on the second line. To see what I mean try the previous code with this answer: "here is very long answer that I hope will confuse the getloc command and cause it to fould up.! --------- response 2 04/13/76 09.31 jim g reading One more bug? If your sentence ends with a word that goes right up to the right edge of the screen (character loc 64) an attempt to underline that last word will draw a line from the start of the last word back to the arrow which in my example is close to the left side of the screen. The xˇ2=0.PS: the command seems clever and useful, though. Thanks I guess that is a 1 dot too far problem(512¬Do)? Will we have to check for this? I really do like the command, Paul and RS!! ---------- response 3 04/13/76 20.33 blomme s You will indeed have to do your own checks for screen wrap-around: you have all the co-ordinates available to do so. ---------- response 4 04/13/76 21.32 tenczar s yes, it doesn't work for -sized- arrows...will make it illegal for this case...maybe, someday, somebody with great dedication to mankind will fix TUTOR arrows (including -getloc-) to work properly in sizes other than standard. yes, there is a problem with the lst character on screen and first word on the second line...this problem also affects answer mark-up in these cases also...will try to find out what is going on...thanks for pointing out problem (by the way, -getloc- "borrowed" much from the answer mark- up machinery of Blomme and simulation plotting routines of Lee) also, Blomme stated the case...users will have to do their own checks for screen wrap-around...not much we can do here. ---------- response 5 04/13/76 21.46 tenczar s with respect to the "last character / first word" problem... the problem is understood and will be fixed when the simulation plotting routines are updated...sorry, but I can't give you a date on when it will be done what with a new computer just being delivered here! ---------- response 6 04/14/76 13.23 tenczar s the "last character / first word" problem should be fixed on the next version ---------- note 444 slide info 04/13/76 10.58 jmk pso To all site directors: We are gathering data on slide selectors and need two types of information. Please respond in lesson "slidenotes" if your terminals fit the following categories: 1. Your terminal is not complete with a slide selector. 2. Your terminal has an older model slide selector in need of modification. The older model is easily identified by the fact that the fiche or slide to be viewed is inverted between two glass panels instead of a clear plastic envelope. Your help is appreciated. Please respond by giving the location and serial number of the terminal in groupnotes file "slidenotes". CERL Maintenance Staff ---------- note 454 29000ecs! 04/13/76 14.30 t obrien politics I would like to know what lesson 'rhrc' of 'meduser' was in today that used 29016 words of ECS (20000+8900) (which was 20: of the current allotment), while 'network' was 19000 words over allotment. If it was for educational purposes, all right. After all, that's what PLATO is for. But if it wasn't, isn't something done? ---------- response 1 04/13/76 14.34 bowery comm Who is site director for network? ---------- respone 2 04/13/76 14.44 golden s I am site director, but really by default. The site is untenable since the users' needs, goals, and attitudes are so very different from place to place and time to time. That is why we have advised everyone who could to form sites of their own. ---------- response 3 04/13/76 17.41 bowery comm Untenable in that a "site" like "network" cannot be maintained on future systems or untenable in that the users of "network" cannot be defended from abuse by other members of "network?" ---------- response 4 04/13/76 18.23 roper siu Anyway, what kind of lesson runs 29000 words? That is obscene! Lesson name somebody? Quetzal ---------- response 5 04/13/76 23.37 haefeli block In talking to elston/rhrc, an author of medical programs on PLATO, I tried lesson 'pexamg' which contains approximately 20000 words of ECS. Yet, before you pass judgement, please talk to one of the "rhrc" group for more information. My understanding is that, for one, courseware is being developed to aid physicians diagnose patients right in their office. Thus, the requirements call for both an extensive library and rigorous data structure. As for the question "why PLATO?", it appears that as a centralized network, PLATO may provide an effective communications web among physicians regarding such compu- terized data handling. Otherwise, other computer systems would seem more appropriate to me. edo ---------- response 6 04/14/76 08.10 michael english The size of a lesson is relevant only with respect to other users on the same site. If a site is owned by a group, or dedicated to their purposes, they should be the sole determiners of what size lessons are used. There are, in fact, router/lesson combinations that take up far more than 20,000 words of ECS. The size of the lesson is not the point, but the decision of the people in charge who elected to use it while on site "network". ---------- response 7 04/14/76 08.37 olson ced I have a lesson catalog which, if used all at once, would use around 25,000 words but through -jumpout-s the user is never using more than 2200 words no matter where he is in the catalog. Dennis ---------- note 457 seminar 04/13/76 14.38 golden s PLATO SEMINAR Robert B Davis CERL and Curriculum Laboratory Title: Is it Wrong to be "Scientific" in Studying Education? Wednesday, April 21 Room 198 CSL, 3:00 pm ---------- response 1 04/13/76 15.05 putch arizona Any possiblity of tapes and/or transcripts of the Seminar being made available to remote site users? (This is a recording.) ---------- response 2 04/13/76 18.22 thomasson music How much you pay me to make a tape, and/or transcript, of the seminar?↓↓ Jimmy (pronounced as "money") Thomasson, 4/13/76 ---------- response 3 04/13/76 18.48 k mast p You've got the right idea, Money. ---------- response 4 04/14/76 05.44 sellers arizona I give my eye teeth to sink my teeth into an slightly different title. 'Is It Wrong to Think in Studying Education' ---------- response 5 04/14/76 09.30 woods med well, in my corner of education it is often not acceptable to be scientific or to think... jimmy (music): i think you're in a seller's market...just quote us a price for (1) tape, (2) transcript and (3) tape and transcript...i'll probably have to pay for such services personally so go as easy as you can....you may make your quotes by "sealed bid" (pnotes).... ---------- response 6 04/14/76 09.43 carter comm Maybe PSO should do this as a public service. The tape can be transcribed, then editted by the speaker, and then a final copy produced and duplicated (or entered into a plato file). If hard copy is produced, it should only be sent to remote sites, not sent to local people too lazy to attend the lecture (naturally there will be special cases here). How about it Bill? ---------- note 461 STOP 04/13/76 16.02 bowery comm Something of use to all individuals using external devices dependant on PLATO generated output would be a terminal generated STOP code fed/back to the input line as if the main computer sent it upon a press of STOP or STOP1. Something like ext 0(?) With the special nature of the STOP and STOP1 commands I think that a special terminal function could be in order. Users of external devices could make this code CLEAR or initialize their device so that if a student presses STOP or STOP1 in the middle of PLATO transmitting info to the device, it can be easily set up again. This could solve the problem of output in finish units, which seems to be a burr in our sysprogs' saddle. ---------- response 1 04/14/76 09.18 b sherwood s Sounds like a good suggestion, but it may already be too late. How do we pick a code value which is not already being used by people? ---------- response 2 04/14/76 09.46 koning csstaff One could be specified by a special command in the lesson, and if that command were not used, no -ext- would be output: finext 0 $$ do -ext 1- when stop(1) pressed Of course this would only work if the ext were generated by Plato. If you want it to be a terminal function, the programmable terminals could do this same thing. ---------- note 465 ISnowork 04/13/76 17.44 meers wright Is it intentional that the save buffer be zeroed if you press STOP1 to get out of group or personal notes? ---------- response 1 04/13/76 18.44 k mast p Its not intentional, but also not trivial to correct. ---------- note 478 HELP! 04/14/76 01.26 kent arizona Help needed! The administrators here at the University of Arizona have asked that we provide a PLATO terminal for their exhib- it at the county fair a few days from now. The problem is that they want us to provide a lesson which will answer the public's questions about the U of A. Since we don't have a reasonable length of time to complete this assignment, we need your help in collecting a list of questions likely to be asked. Lesson 'uaq' will store your questions. With a little help and a good measure of luck, this lesson will be able to answer you questions by next week! If you want to help, please run 'uaq' and enter as many questions as come to mind. Thanks! ---------- response 1 04/14/76 10.53 lekas me It might be a good idea to let users of lesson uaq read previous questions so that you don't get too many duplicates. TL ---------- response 2 04/14/76 13.14 chabay chem Actually, I think you DO want duplicates, to help identify as many variants in phrasing of the same question as possible. Good luck, Jon! ---------- response 3 04/14/76 16.08 kent arizona That is a very good point, Ruth! As usual, one of the most complicated problems in setting-up an open-ended interaction is providing for the various syn- tactical constructions which will be used by students. In order to collect various ways to ask the same question, it seems necessary NOT to display the questions already asked. If you are really interested in seeing the some of the questions already asked (some have been converted to source), you may inspect the common in the lesson--but please contribute your questions first--so that you will not be biased. Thank you to all who have contributed to our list! ---------- response 4 04/15/76 11.44 lombardo ed I would like to mention something in connection with displaying PLATO at fairs which you may or may not realize. I demo'd PLATO at the Illinois State Fair two years ago and had tremendous problems with temperature control. PLATO simply will not put up with heat so be sure you work in a controlled environment. dal ---------- note 479 ghgh,N 04/14/76 04.38 larry mathw If anyone would like to see something different, type in, on the author mode display, garbage followed by a period followed by N. ↑(Example: ghgh.N) It currently takes you to notes. I never noticed this before. I am curious as to whether this is accidental or if there is a reason for this. Larry Stinson ---------- response 1 04/14/76 08.32 berger mfl The period is a word delimiter, and a match command will find the occurence of "N" before the judging continues to search for a better match. ---------- note 493 sequences 04/14/76 11.38 weller kka I have two complaints about the operation of Instructor Mode: 1. When one has completed the construction of a student's personal sequence, the sequence cannot be changed or edited without destroying the sequence and starting over. For example, this is frustrating when one wants to add lessons to an existing sequence. 2. When preparing modules and sequences and one is making choices from the catalog, if one makes a few choices, then pressing + does not bring one to the next page for more choices. ---------- response 1 04/14/76 11.44 b sherwood s Dunno about the first item, but as to the second, you can press + followed by NEXT to move forward, can't you? (Something that should be fixed, of course, but you can use it as is.) Incidentallly, groupnotes "sysrouter" contains a new discussion on such matters. ---------- response 2 04/14/76 11.56 errol kka I tested pressing the + key then NEXT to advance and it works as Bruce said. This nuance is a bit frustrating to instructors even if they are somewhat experienced with instructor mode because when only looking through the catalog, you don't need to press NEXT after pressing +. Glen is rightfully concerned about making changes in individual sequences, particuarly additions. ---------- note 494 unknown? 04/14/76 11.38 koning csstaff I just created a block in a lesson (by pressing shift-A), inserted one line of text into it, and pressed SHIFT-STOP. However, the 'last time/date exited' for the block is 'unknown' rather than a real value. Shouldn't it store the time the block was created? The problem seems to be non-repeatable. ---------- response 1 04/14/76 17.54 dave infe That's because the routine for updating the 'last edited' vector is called only every minute or so: your block existed but no time was listed. Could be repeated with persistence... ---------- response 2 04/14/76 18.08 frye mfl * huh? updated once every minute or so? The last date/time information is supposedly updated when you exit a block that has been changed in some way. It is _a__c__c__u__r__a__t__e_ to within a minute. You're right, I couldn't duplicate it either... ---------- response 3 04/14/76 23.37 dave infe Yeah... me neither... Sorry about the misinformation. ---------- note 495 B board 04/14/76 11.38 artman uimatha Not to gripe too much, but......... It seems that the Bulletin Board consistently lags about a day or so behind announcements of new system features, policies, etc. Sometimes it is updated immediately, sometimes it lags more than a day or two. For me, in any case, this eliminates its usefullness, as a quick check in sysfeature notes is often more up to date. Am I just imagining things, or do others feel the same way? eric artman ---------- response 1 04/14/76 12.52 golden s If a new feature has been announced, I should think you would want to read the full announcement in notes. It seems to me, therefore, that notes is the best place to look in the first place. ---------- response 2 04/14/76 12.54 snellen medneta I presume that is tantamount to saying that the bulletin board rarely serves any useful purpose. --JES ---------- respone 3 04/14/76 13.02 golden s I didn't mean to say it had no use. It is a good place for brief announcements other than new features. My point was that a new feature usually takes at least a full note to be understood. The note is going to be written anyway. It doesn't take any longer to look for the notes. ---------- response 4 04/14/76 14.04 broadus css Who will read the brief announcements, if no body bothers to look at the bulletin board since it is not updated much. ---------- response 5 04/14/76 14.45 maggs law The question is really one of truth in marketing. The Bulletin Board should either say: 1. Consult "new system features" for new features (and omit the list of features) or it should say: 2. Below is a one-week-out of date list of new features -- for recent additions see new systems features. ---------- response 6 04/14/76 16.26 artman uimatha What I meant was that I like to be able to check the bulletin board to see if there might be anything that I had not already seen in sysfeature notes, or major announcements in public notes. I never look at the bulletin board to see what a new command is about, just to see if there is anything that I should look at elsewhere. I thought that that was the bulletin board's purpose, and the reason it was once part of the signon routine. eric artman ---------- response 7 04/14/76 19.59 blomme s I don't know any reason why people making a new entry in the system feature notes cannot take 30 seconds to add a quick one line indication of its existence in the bulletin board display. Only some of the system staff seem to want to bother with it (and some others probably don't know where to go to make the change), but continued indications of its use may help convince people to make that extra effort. In the meantime, many of us do try to keep it current, but you may have to "suffer" with the occasional lapses. ---------- response 8 04/14/76 21.10 tenczar s as perhaps the most recent offender...let me say that I did try to find out how to enter the new -getloc- command into the B-board display...but couldn't figure out how!!! (for those not knowing, it just recently has been changed to a database type format...and I couldn't find the editor)...I intended to ask the right person how, but all your notes beat me! ---------- note 499 time slice 04/14/76 12.53 nudelman css This is something I have been wondering about for a while... In aids it says that a time slice is .025 seconds. But simple arithmetic shows that with 350 users, .025 seconds spent on each one means a gap of 8.75 seconds between your time slices. So what actually determines the end of a time slice? And a probably related question: does this code: * * some code * return $$ end the time slice transfr a,b,100 transfr b,c,100 * guarantee that the 2 -transfr-s will be executed in the same time slice? * Mark Nudelman * ---------- response 1 04/14/76 13.06 woolley p Not everyone needs a timeslice every time around, and of the users that do, few need their full 25 msec. The end of the timeslice comes when some break in the processing occurs (end of unit, pause command, etc.) or when autobreak interrupts you when you have exceeded 25 msec. No two commands are EVER guaranteed to be executed in the same timeslice. In fact, sometimes a break will occur within a single command! However, in your example it is unlikely that the transfr's will be executed in separate timeslices. ---------- response 2 04/14/76 13.08 golden s I just looked at today's statistics: The average timeslice was a little less than 5ms in duration; The average poll (the list of users waiting to be served) was 26ms. So, on the average only 5 or 6 users need service each poll. Even though there are more than 300 users. Changes made a few months ago give variable length time-slices. They are never longer than 25ms, but you may be stopped a lot sooner than that. ---------- response 3 04/16/76 12.03 michael english When I get auto-broken (Is that akin to the religious meaning of "self-abuse"?), I wonder if the simple arithmetic calculation is not, in fact, correct..... ---------- note 504 Help-need 04/14/76 13.08 bj snider atest Last night at approx. 3:00 A.M. I was using 'pfw3' a syntactical analysis program called Prophet written by sunderman/pfw. It is also listed in 'uni21' under interterminal games (option 42). today when I attempted to use it I got some bogus mazefight game. The same game was run when using the jumpout from 'uni21' to 'pfw3'. WHY? What happened to the 'pfw3' that I was using last night? .......Norm....... ---------- response 1 04/14/76 13.41 resch nursing I wouldn't trust any lessons named 'pfwX', since those lessons are changed so often that it is hard to keep up with. mazefight has been around for a little while, and every so often if disappears, being replaced with something else that the authors of those lessons are doing. Then, when they are finished with that new thing, they return mazefight to its original state. Paul Resch ---------- response 2 04/14/76 13.42 luke cornell Lesson pfw3 is Mike's workspace, in which exists most of his code for several routines. During odd hours, he partials out certain blocks of code, and re-partials others, so selective blocks may be condensed at any given time. Call him tonight, and perhaps he'll put up the prophet for you. P.S. Mazefight is far from a bogus game... Luke ---------- response 3 04/14/76 19.52 judy pso If your prophet is the prophet I have seen, he only comes out of his cave during odd hours. ---------- note 510 cdcplato 04/14/76 14.16 cagle cdclink CONTROL DATA PLATO has been officially announced as a product in New York City this morning. Good attendance and response, of course, by general press and guests. Mr. Norris, Chairman of the Board, spoke as did Mr. Sheehan, Chairman of Commercial Credit, and Bob Morris...Our thanks to all at CERL for the extra effort this week. ---------- response 1 04/14/76 14.29 golden s Now that it is official...why not be the first on your block to own one .......call your friendly CDC man. ---------- response 2 04/14/76 15.08 deiss phar Have lots of cookies and orange pop on hand! ---------- response 3 04/14/76 23.22 kent unl I must honestly admit, as an ARHOPS author, that I kinda like U≤ˇI PLATO better..... ---------- response 4 04/15/76 08.29 cnb faa Has anyone seen any newspaper clips on this? ---------- response 5 04/15/76 17.13 poulos cdcc Dr. Frank Field, the NBC education editor came to see PLATO with camera crews. It will be on New York local news tonite, and available for national use either tomorrow nite or next week, probably on the early evening news. Articles: It was in this morning's NY Wall Street Journal, but don't believe it made the Midwest edition. Press represented at the conference included: US News ¬+ World Report, Time, Newsweek, Fortune, Forbes, THE Journal, ABC, CBS, NBC, Industrial Educator, NY Times, several radio stations, to name a few. Made the St. Paul paper last nite and Minneapolis this morning. ---------- response 6 04/16/76 11.24 a wong ed317 How much is the going price now? ---------- note 513 help me 04/14/76 14.57 rindal ee I'm looking for some statistics concerning the benefits of PLATO classes vs. conventionally taught subjects. Things like comparisons of cost per student hour, grades received, student interest etc. The information can be either on the system or in outside sources. Please reply before this Saturday as I need the information as soon as possible. thank you thank you... ---------- response 1 04/14/76 15.11 luke cornell Please dont show this to any teachers--*sheesh*! ---------- response 2 04/14/76 20.07 chabay chem I'd like to know what you want to do with the statistics. At this point, most information on use of PLATO is quite preliminary, and come from experimental situations. This kind of data has to be considered in context to be meaningful. ---------- response 3 04/14/76 23.26 clegg amesrad I kinda like to shy away from comparisons like this myself. There's been too many comparisons between different forms of media instruction and conventional instruction with a result of no significant difference. All you usually learn is that a particular teacher is better than a particular instructional package, or vice versa. As for cost comparisons, how much is it worth for you to improve achievement X;, or save X amount of time? Janet ---------- response 4 04/15/76 01.23 avner s The main thing to remember is that PLATO is a medium, not a treatment. It provides advantages only to the extent that its features are (a) useful for the particular instructional situation in question, and (b) effectively used. Al Avner (prop.- Ye olde Evaluation and Measurement Shoppe) ---------- response 5 04/16/76 13.46 jordan english i am suspicious of requests like this for information "before saturday", makes me feel that the interpretation of data would be woefully inadequate. however, throwing caution to the wind, i suggest you STUDY the Fall 1975 Community College Users Report available through CERL publicatations, 252 ERL, U. of I. , Urbana, Ill.61801. the pre-payment policy is always in effect. call dave self about the cost: 217 333 0527. pauline jordan com. col. cord. ---------- note 517 effect 04/14/76 16.14 bowery comm (peer group?) 2 Questions that require one number each: Q1: What is the probability that a given PLATO course will be more effective than an equivalent conventional one? Q2: What is the probability that a given PLATO course will cost less than an equivalent conventional one? I'm aware that the database is pretty small but I would like what information you have anyway. ---------- response 1 04/15/76 01.34 avner s Some more questions: 1)How is effectivness measured? 2)How is cost measured? A given implementation of PLATO, given appropriate use of its features (see reply to previous note), may be designed to give (a)higher performance on same objectives,(b) same level of performance on more material,(c)higher level of understanding on same material, (d) more positive student attitude toward the subject..... Costs may be in terms of monitary input, student time, instructor time, etc. as well as trade-offs among these. Documentation of major aspects of these considerations is being prepared as part of the internal evaluation of PLATO and will be available some months in the future. Meanwhile, the PLATO publications list is the best source of info. But remember, it ain't simple....... (so much for the effectiveness of that grammer lessons..) ---------- response 2 04/15/76 15.32 bowery comm In general I have found that educators and people in acedemia choose to look on grades as the indicator of effectiveness. I asked the question so they could understand it with a minimum of argot translation. I didn't mean to argue about the definition of real education. I meant to ask about "education" that is mapped on to our grading systems to show "effectivness." Whether that mapping is a useful one is a good question but not necessarily related to the one I was meant to ask. ie: How much higher or lower are the "grades" of a student taught a subject on PLATO than those of a student taught the same subject with conventional methods? It is a simplistic question that contains little information of value to civilization but if one wants good "grades" one doesn't necessarily ask if something is effective in a globalistic sense. ---------- note 519 Thank you 04/14/76 16.27 kent arizona Thanks to the many people who have responded to 'arizona's request for help (note ¬$478)!! The response was so overwhelming that it swamped our collection routine in lesson 'uaq'. Had we anticipated the degree to which the Plato community offers assistance, we would have allotted additional common for storage of the questions. Unfortunately, the circular buffer wrapped- around sometime this morning, overwriting the first 100 questions. We estimate that all questions entered before ¬;11:00 CST were lost. (SIGH) If you were one of the early responders, we apprec- iate your help this morning, and if you feel inclined to re-enter your questions, we promise that the lesson will not destroy your contributions again. Thanks, The "Arizona Authors" ---------- note 520 policies 04/14/76 17.05 golden s All U of I authors should read lesson "policies" to learn the proposed policies on copyright, ownership, and royalties for PLATO instructional lessons. ---------- response 1 04/14/76 19.34 michael cornell 1) The lesson is riddled with typographic errors, but this is understandable considering the time pressure involved. 2) To whom should I direct questions regarding this material? (Perhaps a gnotes file would be appropriate) Michael Oltz ---------- response 2 04/15/76 08.09 golden s Fine. I have opened groupnotes file "policynote" for such a discussion. At first, please restrict discussion to questions about what the policies are, rather than to the broader matter of the wisdom (or lack there of) of the policies. Every author should be able to use lesson "policynote". Let me know if that isn't the case. ---------- response 3 04/15/76 11.47 lombardo ed Two questions: 1. How much will it cost me to buy a terminal 2. Where is the slot on the darn thing to put in my quarter for every lesson I use? ---------- note 524 seminar 04/14/76 19.36 judy pso A transcription of the seminar on copyright protection for computer programs, which was given yesterday by Peter Maggs, is in lesson "petermaggs". It is just a transcription. Use inspect mode to read the material. ---------- response 1 04/14/76 20.06 michael cornell Thanks, Judy! We who are at remote sites salute you! M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 2 04/14/76 23.49 hinton ssu Thanks to judy and thanks to maggs: a very clear and useful discussion ! Is there a micro of the little copyright mark some- where easily accesible ? I thought there used to be, at least. ndh ---------- response 3 04/15/76 09.43 t obrien politics As for that copyright mark, I believe parrello has one in his animicro micro table. Check out the help pages in 'news' under the heading 'animicro'. Terry O'Brien ---------- response 4 04/15/76 10.58 frye mfl The one I use looks like this: (_)≤≤¬ˆˇ_≤¬ˆˇˇˇc and isn't too hard to type. However, you should use the word "copyright" also for printouts, as this symbol (and any symbol that is altfont) come out as assorted garbage. ---------- note 537 defi≤--≤ne 04/15/76 02.34 dave infe I notice that, at least as of this version, a -cstop- / -cstart- sequence interrupts a -define- sequence that it occurs within (that is, the lines after the -cstart- are not recognized as continuation of the -define- set). This is a nuisance; how hard would it be to fix? Thanks. ---------- response 1 04/15/76 09.07 judy pso This is indeed a long-standing "error". It will be fixed someday, but an easy fix is not available or it would have been done. Since the problem is just a "nuisance" it may be a while before it is fixed. ---------- response 2 04/15/76 20.51 blomme s There are a couple of problems/errors in this general area; there has been some consideration given to re-doing the way in which the next line look ahead is done in the condensor. If and when this is done, presumably several different things (this problem included) will get fixed. ---------- note 538 Helen 04/15/76 07.51 golden s Disk-pack Helen is now a permanent part of the PLATO library ---------- note 541 arrowmov? 04/15/76 08.35 hagerman ames Does anyone out there have a routine for a moving arrow? That is, the student has a list of variables which he may alter at will; if he presses next or back without entering anything at the arrow, the variable in question is not changed and the arrow moves forward or backward. If he enters a number, the variable is reset, then the arrow moves. Sauron ---------- response 1 04/15/76 09.53 jmk pso You might look at the way I enter matrices in lesson "multvar". ---------- response 2 04/15/76 11.20 warner iu You might also look at the 3D routine in lesson "library". This has a section (written by bowery/comm) that allows you to set any of a number of variables. ---------- response 3 04/15/76 12.51 copland csa I have a routine in lesson 'resim' which enables the student to move a cursor to the desired location, and at that point, enter either a single value, or specify a direction in which he would like to move after each successive entry. There is a help page available describing how to use it. To access it, enter option A on the main choice page (edit info.), then chose any of the 5 choices. Answer the questions which follow in any way, since they are irrelivant if you only want to see the editor. ---------- respone 4 04/15/76 17.42 bowery comm unit arrmov $$ Innovations for this loop come calc i‎1 $$ courtousy of Brand Fortner and myself 1loop * These -calcs-s can be replaced if some simple * relationship describs position, len, and/or loc calcs i-2,loc‎varloc(parm1),varloc(parm2),varloc(parm3) calcs i-2,len‎len1,len2,len3 calcs i-2,arat‎arat1,arat2,arat3 write ¬0at,arat+2¬1¬0m,e¬1¬0a,n(loc),len¬1 arrow arat long len copy n(loc),len exact write ¬0at,arat+2¬1¬0a,n(loc),len¬1 storea n(loc),len $$ if numerics only are used ok $$ the copy key should not be used endarrow $$ and one should not -showa- calc i‎i+(key=back)-(key=next) i‎3≠frac(¬[3+[i-1]¬]/3) $$ Modify 3 to n where n=max branch 1loop ---------- response 5 04/15/76 17.48 bowery comm For an example of how something like this looks see lesson "colorado." ---------- response 6 04/15/76 19.20 haefeli block Where are you getting the "key=back" from at the last -calc- there? -jkey back-? edo ---------- note 547 long time 04/15/76 10.49 parrello mfl I have been informed by a certain animated display in a certain well-known system lesson that I have 3.294≠10ˆ1ˆ7 hours and 22 minutes to file my return. According to my calculations, this gives me until approx. the year 3,760,270,001,976 to turn in my 1040. As an ardent believer in classical capitalism and thus an ardent disbeliever in mandatory taxation, I appreciate your effort to communicate this information to me. I am forever in your debt for freeing me from the oppressive and certainly immoral burden of filling out that idiotic form. Sincerely, The Red Sweater ---------- response 1 04/15/76 11.11 k mast p Well, the way I here it, Bonnie Anderson never was that good at math. ---------- response 2 04/15/76 15.45 bowery comm "Pass the buck!" I always say. ---------- response 3 04/15/76 17.23 parrello uimatha I think I finally understand what Truman meant. ---------- response 4 04/15/76 18.19 woods med based on my limited tenure as a ui administrator, i am surprized to learn that a programmer makes enough dough to worry about 1040's... what ya got going on the side, red?...i did note in one note file that you seem to have some knowledge of the jargon of the drug biz... ---------- response 5 04/15/76 19.17 curly iu One does not report any income from sale of drugs..... ANY Red Sweater knows that! curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 6 04/15/76 20.41 temmerman com i thought ppersons were supposed to know how to spell! ---------- response 7 04/15/76 20.57 parrello uimatha The rumors about myself and illegal drugs are VICIOUS, LYING, SLANDEROUS tales spun by my programming partner Mike Berger, who is just jealous of my ability to resist the stuff. My high income in 1975 was due mostly to revenues from my olive oil business. Besides, the evidence they found won't hold up in court. The Red Sweater ---------- response 8 04/16/76 01.26 novak com Boy, that sure is one nice display....... I was just informed (at 1:30 am 4/16/76) that I had 22 hrs. and 30 minutes to file my return. (sigh)...not only can't they add, they can't read a calender Chris ---------- response 9 04/16/76 03.11 sellers arizona Due to inflation you will only be paying 10↑ˆ-17 ↑ˇdollars present value by then so maybe it would be good idea to wait. ---------- note 553 lesslength 04/15/76 12.08 mcneil e uicc ON MAXIMUM LESSON LENGTH If you are interested in finding out how long (really how short) a lesson should be, there is a long note on the subject in the groupnote 'usernotes' ¬$21. ---------- response 1 04/15/76 13.58 fay o I also recommend (again) old sys features notes 95 thru 98 from 9/24/74 as backround. ---------- note 555 ziggy 04/15/76 13.20 gilpin peer To all persons who attended any part of the workshop with Ziggy Engelmann this week--Please do not forget that Pauline Jordan has volunteered to summarize our notes and observations. If you have any such, please communicate them to her by tomorrow morning, so that she can try to have something back to us by next week. I imagine that hardcopy in her mailbox would be the preferred method of communication. ---------- note 560 catalog 04/15/76 16.28 olson ced All authors and students are welcome to look at lesson 'media' which is a catalog of all available instructional resources at the Rockford School of Medicine. We will be happy to provide information on the titles in the catalog and possibly arrangements can be made to borrow items. Comments can be made while in the catalog by TERM/comments or you may leave a pnote to me (olson/ced). We welcome any suggestions, etc...you may have. Thanks and hope the catalog helps in some way. Dennis ******** ---------- note 566 TAlesson 04/15/76 18.26 putch arizona There is an Introduction to Transactional Analysis in lesson -putch-. The lesson is not complete, but I would appreciate some feedback as to how what does exist can be improved and what should be included if/when the lesson is expanded. I am particularly interested in feedback from people who know TA as to how the material is presented. Comments and suggestions here, or by pnote. Michael J. Putch ---------- response 1 04/16/76 07.54 michael cornell Somehow, I feel as if I've seen it all somewhere before... M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz *** end of notes ***