+++ plato iv group notes +++ Public Notes notes beginning april 16, 1976 file pbnotes11 printed at 6:47 pm on june 12, 1976 ---------- note 0 n.y. times 04/16/76 08.08 maggs law The following article appeared in the New York Times, Thursday, April 15, 1976, p. 57, col. 1-2: CONTROL DATA UNVEILS AN EDUCATION COMPUTER By William D. Smith The Control Data Corporation introduced yesterday a computer-based education syste, called Plato, that appears to be the largest and most sophisticated commercial attempt yet to utilize computer technology in the educational process. The Plato system which uses a large-scale Control Data Computer, will sell for $5 million to $6 million, but terminal time will be available for $4 to $10 per hour. William C. Norris, chairman of Control Data, said at a news conference at the Park Lane Hotel that the corpora- tion's immediate marketing thrust would be the 20 billion a year training market represented by Federal and state governments, (continued ...) ---------- response 1 04/16/76 08.12 maggs law (continuation) large and small business and selected segments of higher education Computer Utilization The utilization of compter and other advance technol- ogies was a topic of considerable attention during th late 1960's and early 1970's, with many major companies such as the General Electric Company, the RCA Corporation and the Xerox Corporation going into the z "educational business." For the most part the anticipated profits were not forthcoming and the boom became a bust for some of the entrants into the field. A drop in the anticipated rate of school population growth and a drop in Federal subsidies to education contributed to the market's failure to live up to expectations. Mr. Norris said that the industry was now a much more solid base and that the growth in computer-based edu- education (continued . . . ) ---------- response 2 04/16/76 08.16 maggs law "will make possible terminals in employees' homes within a few years." This will be the biggest consumer market this country has ever seen," he said. The company will offfer its Plato system in three ways: P≤¬IThrough a subscription service involving the instal- lation of terminals in customer facilities with communica- tion links to the nearest Control Data Plato computer sys- tem. P≤¬IThrough a chain of learning centers in major metropol- itain areas for business and industry training needs. P≤¬IThrough privately installed computer systems at customer installations. Plato operates through visual display terminals that connect directly to the large-scale compter and interact through lesson materials in the computer's memory. Users see their instructional material in the form of text, numbers, (continued . . . ) ---------- response 3 04/16/76 08.17 maggs law numbers and other graphics. The student interacts with the computer-stored lesson materials in some what the same manner as with a teacher -- foloing instructions, asking and answering questions. More than 500 users can use a single Plato system simultaneously, each calling up different materials and getting respones in less than two-tenths of a second. The company will supply course materials, but the sys- tem has a simplified computer language that will allow teachers to implement their own specific courses. (end of article) ---------- response 4 04/16/76 08.22 tebby pso A similar article appeared in the Wall Street Journal of Apr. 15. The clipping is on the bulletin board in the 2nd floor hall of CERL. ---------- response 5 04/16/76 09.37 hinton ssu More than 500 simutaneous users, eh ? ---------- response 6 04/16/76 09.39 frankel p Here are a few selected quotes from the WSJ article: "Control Data said close to 2,000 terminals are expected to be installed by the end of next year.... The company further said it anticipates installing five total systems by the end of next year." "Use of a terminal hooked into the system, the company said, probably would cost between $4 and $10 an hour, which it said was well below what a small business normally would spend to train employees." "Control Data said that, all told, it has spent hundreds of millions of dollars developing Plato over the past 15 years." ---------- response 7 04/16/76 10.20 jr lewis mtc I think it might be time to buy stock in CDC! Jeff Lewis ---------- response 8 04/16/76 11.38 a wong ed317 And not one word about the U of I....yeesh... ---------- response 9 04/16/76 12.25 john risken cdcc CDC's press releases did include substantial attribution to the U of I, but what the various reporters chose to print ..... ---------- response 10 04/18/76 21.47 j thiher amesrad In regard to the stocks aspect many brokers are recommending CDC stock as a profitable investment citing it as in a "depressed stock". jim ---------- response 11 04/19/76 20.00 morgan uicca CDC stock was really depressed last year when it was selling for 10 dollars a share on January 1 1975. Thats what I call depressed. I would think that the brokers would be refering to some of CDC's other activities. I would not think that revenues would start coming in all to soon from the invest- ment that they will have to undertake to do a proper marketing job of Plato. When you think about it 10 dallars per hour of computer usage is not bad but I would think that people would use the system for other things than teaching just because it takes many hours of use to really learn something. ---------- response 12 04/20/76 08.15 mont csa I think it's time to sell CDC stock. ---------- response 13 04/23/76 21.48 zielinski csa I would pay $10 an hour to check my notes. heck, twenty letters costs 20≠13 cents.....quick - - term calc! ---------- note 5 inspctlog 04/16/76 09.33 berger mfl Policy question regarding "accounts": What was the reason that "inspect only" in "accounts" doesn't allow one to inspect the log? If one is per- mitted to see a list of all files, and data on those files, I would think that he should be permitted to see file actions as well. ---------- note 9 res word 04/16/76 10.22 buz phar Is there any reason that -course- is a command rather than a reserved word...such as "user" or "zreturn". I realize that it is necessary for -name-, since it can be 18 letters. Also, is there any chance for a system reserved word for a random number generator...returning a random no. between 0.¬D1. I realize the -randu- command will do this...but this way would make it neater for random deviate generators. define uniform(hi,lo)=(hi-lo)≠randm+lo buz ---------- response 1 04/16/76 10.27 k mast p The course is not given as a reserved word so as to be consistant with the -name- command. I'll let Larry White or Rick Blomme answer the other question concerning random numbers. ---------- response 2 04/16/76 11.31 maggs law I think the system answer shows a foolish consistency. How about having system reserved words name1, name2, and course. name1 would give the first 10 letters of the name and name2 the rest; course would give the course. Then we would still be consistent. Look at the defined random number generators in lesson library (inspect only) -- I think they do what you want. ---------- response 3 04/16/76 13.12 tenczar s -course- -random- and many other commands came into existence long before there were reserved words in the TUTOR calc machinery...indeed, even before the calc machinery was very powerful...it would be a close battle to see how these options would be implemented today... there are plus and minus sides to having options as reserved words / TUTOR commands. For example, the -calc- is the slowest of all commands during condense time while commands such as -course- are the fastest...this is of course counterbalanced by the fact that one generally wants to use this information in a -calc- situation... so, someday when we get some free minutes, we will probably re-evaluate the whole works... (the above is an example of historical causality) ---------- response 4 04/16/76 18.24 blomme s The question also tends in its extreme to become one of just how much "embedding" one wants to take place--at the farthest end the system could be reduced to just a -write- command and a -calc- command with all graphics simply embedded into the write and all computationally related things embedded into the calc. The balance point in readability and efficiency is not always easy to define. ---------- note 11 notefile 04/16/76 10.56 novak com Just noticed a funny thing about a notefile, "accnotes". I had just finished writing a note, and stored it. I pressed -BACK-, and of the 4 notes in the file, only the first 2 appeared, and I never got an "end of notes" message. I pressed -NEXT-, and got the last 2 notes, and the "end of notes" message. What I'd like to know, is what happened, ie, why didn't all the notes appear on 1 page when I pressed back? (There's only 4 of them in the file). When I "stop1" out, and came back in, there were all 4 on 1 page, just as it is supposed to be. Chris ---------- response 1 04/16/76 12.44 woolley p My guess is that you pressed BACK twice. When you back out to the index, it starts showing notes beginning with the last one you read. Then when you press back, it goes back a ways and shows notes until it gets to one that was displayed on the previous index page. ---------- note 12 mic edit 04/16/76 10.56 buz phar would it be possible in the micro editor to show the key when you "see all"...i.e. 'a' 1 076010000000000000000 ¬a 'b' 2 076020000000000000000 ¬b buz ---------- response 1 04/16/76 11.43 judy pso The new (gee, it's been a long time coming) micro editor will have this and many other nice features. ---------- response 2 04/16/76 16.02 mike b cornell Was that a subtle hint, Judy? M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 3 04/18/76 21.18 dave fuller uimc I hope so. ---------- response 4 04/20/76 09.54 parrello uimatha Those of you who want to hear the whole soap opera should contact myself or Paul Koning by pnote. ---------- note 13 policies 04/16/76 11.19 golden s Printed copies of the three documents which appear in lesson "policies" will be available in about one week. Each U of I author...i.e. students and employees of the University and anyone else who is given free author access to PLATO terminals owned by the U of I will recieve one copy of documents a and c and two copies of document b. (Document b is the agreement between author and University.) When an author decides to execute the agreement, he will sign both copies of document b and return them to the University. Proper signatures representing the University will be entered on both copies, and one copy will be returned to the author. ---------- response 1 04/16/76 11.29 novak com How are they going to be distributed? Will the course directors pass them out, or do we pick them up in the operators office, or what? ---------- response 2 04/16/76 11.57 golden s One distribution and collection point will be established on each campus. Details later. ---------- note 23 converter 04/16/76 13.05 john risken cdcc Does anybody know of the existence of any programs for converting materials originally used on the IBM 1500 system into TUTOR? I am aware that several programs have been converted by hand, and that various people have talked about writing such a conversion program: I can't determine whether any of that talk resulted in software. ---------- response 1 04/16/76 13.41 judy pso That's "coursewriter" stuff, isn't it? I have heard that the conversions only cost abot $65 apiece. For that price you can hardly afford to write a converter-- plus presumably you get better "centering" etc. ---------- response 2 04/16/76 13.47 maggs law I have found it very useful when translating from other computer languages to create a partial converter consisting of a number of TUTOR units which perform the functions of those commands in the source language which have no direct counterparts in TUTOR. For the reasons Judy suggests, I too have doubts about doing much more, unless there is a very large number of lessons to covert. ---------- response 3 04/16/76 14.08 golden s The $65 figure comes from the experience of the Med group who used student hourly programmers for converting 56 coursewriter lessons. They also made various changes in the lessons to make available PLATO capabilities not expected by the lessons. You don't really want a machine translation. People will do it so much better for so little cost. As a direct answer to your question, I don't think a converter exists. ---------- response 4 04/16/76 18.50 hody med Bill is absolutely correct. * The work in question was reported to ADCIS summer meeting Aug 75: Transportation of Health Science Computer-based Lessons Between Dissimilar Systems at the Program Listing Level by GL Hody, RE Stull, B Cohen and P Cohen. * The "costs" cited were "direct" costs- salary, travel and such and did not include either hardware or conventional institutional "overhead". Costs were divided into two segments-- first that of acquiring the data-base (conferences with the original owners and the like), and the initial coding of the driver programs. * The second cost component was the cost of actually converting the modules or the "recurring costs". * (cont) ---------- response 5 04/16/76 18.54 hody med The non-recurring costs (setup) were $3470 for 56 modules or about $67 per module. The production costs were $5054 for 56 modules or $90 per module. This could have been cut back further a good bit by doing a literal translation but instead, each module was carefully edited by one or more subject content experts and some of the displays were reconstructed to conform with applicable PLATO features. * On the one hand, the modules do far more on PLATO than they did on the original version. They are far faster, more fun to use, and keep much more data. * On the other hand, they were produced at less than one tenth the cost of starting from scratch-- and academic point anyway if one considers that the originals were produced by a staff of 18 PhD pharmacologists-- (cont) ---------- response 6 04/16/76 19.01 hody med -- a resource which was simply not available to the University of Illinois School of Basic Medical Sciences (SBMS-U/C) in any other way. * Prior to the start of the work, a search for existing automated conversion methods was made without success. For a number of practical reasons, such automated conversions would be extremely difficult. The lessons are accessed through the med catalog: mclcat, in the section of pharmacology under basic sciences. * The driver program written especially for these conversions might be useful to those working with Coursewriter lessons. * The original driver has since been refined and improved by the medical author group. Requests for information about the driver should be addressed by personal note to Dr. Allan Levy (levy/mcl). * G L Hody, MD; consultant to SBMS/UC ---------- response 7 04/19/76 08.21 john risken cdcc Thank you all for all the answers. I had not expected/wanted a full-fledged converter to produce ready-to-use lessons, but it's very interesting that peole feel even partial conversions are not really productive. Thanks again. ---------- note 26 charload 04/16/76 13.45 novak com The new options for loading charsets when entering into a lesson in edit mode is great, but why does someone have to load the charset when only inspecting the lesson? It seems to be kind of a nuisance, especially if you want to check several things in different lessons, and they are set to use different charset. Chris ---------- response 1 04/16/76 14.16 weible german definitely agree. could charload be made optional without too much cluttering of the system? ---------- response 2 04/16/76 14.19 frankel p Just hit the STOP key to stop the loading. ---------- response 3 04/16/76 17.33 clark lawyer An interesting result of pressing STOP; You get an error message and no matter what you press you are taken into the lesson. Shouldn't BACK return you to author mode? Just an small inconsistency... ---------- response 4 04/17/76 17.33 john poor mathg I have noticed that alot of programmers will not allow you to press the -STOP- key while the characters are being loaded. ---------- response 5 04/18/76 05.46 koning csstaff That certainly makes sense in the case of instructional lessons. For one thing, you want to guard against the possibility that the student presses STOP by accident, and besides many lessons wouldn't make any sense without the characters loaded. Think of a hebrew lesson without hebrew characters, for example! On the other hand, there are no compelling reasons in most non-instructional lessons to do the same. ---------- response 6 04/20/76 09.58 parrello uimatha Besides, that is getting off the subject. The STOP key cannot be dis-allowed when one is loading a charset on entry to a lesson via the EDITOR. ---------- note 32 press list 04/16/76 15.50 poulos cdcc Please read note ¬$510, response 5, from 4/14 about PLATO possibly being on NBC early evening news tonite or next week. Also, here's the list of press which actually attended so we can watch them...some are news distributors. so it's not necessarily limited to just those listed. Reader's Digest Quantum Science E. P. Products Forbes WPIX Worldwide Services, Ltd. U. S. News ¬+ World Report Canadian Press Industrial Equipment News Financial News Week Educational Technology New York Post Transamerican News Reports Spectrum Time Parade ABC-TV Reuters Industrial Education American Health Foundation Wall Street Journal Administration Management ---------- response 1 04/16/76 15.59 poulos cdcc Cont. Inside R ¬+ D Data Communications Info Systems THE Journal Product Engineering Management Review Industry Week ABC-TV Daily Electronic Feed Datamation ABC Radio Network Microwave Journal Telecomm. WNYC National Black Network Electronics Magazine Present Tense Magazine New York Times Columbia Features CBS Radio ¬+ TV Sales ¬+ Marketing Management The News United Press International ---------- response 2 04/16/76 17.14 frankel p Thanks...those of us who try to keep tabs on PLATO's appearances in the media appreciate this kind of info! ---------- note 35 heat limit 04/16/76 16.09 maggs law What is the maximum allowable temperature for the air in a room where PLATO terminals are being operated? ---------- response 1 04/16/76 16.26 golden s Much above 80-o F. and older terminals do funny things. Excessive humidity has also been known to hurt. ---------- response 2 04/16/76 16.33 lombardo ed It certainly does do funny things. for instance you will get partial and complete screen erases within seconds after the image appears. I allowed to operate in the heat (80 or above) for more than a minute or so, you just won't get anything, as if it is inoperative. dal ---------- response 3 04/17/76 02.36 sellers arizona I promise not to take my terminal out when I decide to get are real sun tan. ---------- response 4 04/19/76 08.47 jim g reading Touch Panels tend to "die" when attached to a terminal in a hot room. This can happen before the terminal starts suffering from heat stroke. One can observe this by taking off the hot touch panel, putting a new one on and watching the new one "die" in 10 or so minutes. The symptoms are touches being lost or misinterperted. ---------- note 36 TAerror 04/16/76 16.11 putch arizona I wish to apologize to those without touch panels who have tried to check out lesson -putch-(announced yester- day in note ¬$555.) The lesson originally had a conditional jump that took everyone but me through an initialization sequence which not only offers a notouch option but explains a few things about the lesson and its intention. Although this feature was present when I tested it, something caused a change in the jump statement(I _still_ don't know how it could have happened!) so that it sent everyone straight to the intro display. Again, I apologize to any who were frustrated by touch only questions and invite them to go through the lesson again (the real irony is that those arrows _would_ have accepted typed answers, you just weren't given the right form of the question!) The error was corrected around 2:00 p.m. CST today. ---------- note 42 how long? 04/16/76 18.49 d zweig iu How long are instuctor files? If only 1, then I got gyped.....Silas!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- response 1 04/16/76 18.50 golden s Instructor files can be up to several parts in length, but most are only one part. ---------- response 2 04/16/76 18.58 chabay s The longest useful instructor file is 2 parts. A longer file will just waste space. A 2-part instructor file is necessary only if you want the maximum possible number of modules (20) or if you want to put lots and lots of text on all your index pages. Otherwise, a 1-part file is quite adequate. ---------- note 51 fast‎slow 04/18/76 00.33 church iusn While attempting to "look at" a lesson, I typed the 'inspect code' only to see flashed for a fraction of a second: One Moment - Characters Being Loaded or something to that effect... Is this normal? Or could it be that I'm the character thats loaded?! Hmmmm ---------- response 1 04/18/76 00.48 harkrader o The charset is loaded even in inspect only mode. Maybe it was a small charset. ---------- response 2 04/19/76 11.22 judy pso And in case you didn't understand the response, go to the block directory page of one of your lessons and press DATA1. The DATA1 page will give you the opportunity to indicate a charset and micro table be used for editing. It is a vastly handy feature for those who use complicated characters and micros. ---------- note 54 cerlnotes 04/18/76 14.47 ciciora cerl Attn course cerl, your notesfile is almost full. ---------- note 57 GaMeS 04/18/76 23.15 brooks ed Someone should monitor the site "controller" a little more carefully. I am sure most people can appre- ciate the subtle personality changes that come over certain individuals when they are given any measure of control over individuals or situations. The person who is in charge of this evening is a perfect example of that condition operating. Courtesy plays an impor- tant part in how authority is received. Also the attitude of an individual who is tasked with super- vision of others is vital to that persons performance. Running through the room acting like an insane base- ball umpire, ejecting people from a game is not appropriate. ---------- response 1 04/18/76 23.27 weiss ed I agree. While the site controller is within his bounds to tell people that they can no longer play games, He should ask people to leave _Unless_ they have a justifiable use for that terminal. Just walking up to a person and shouting 'OFF' without pior warning is definitely not proper. The site controllers may get tired of doing this night after night but that's what they are getting paid for(among other things). A simple warning to the authors when resources get tight should be a common courtesy, NOT an automatic backing out! ---------- response 2 04/18/76 23.44 harkrader o I agree too. People who have privileges above the normal user should feel some responsibility for the normal user. The 'normal user' is the student by 10:1. Authors have The privilege to choose what they would like to do when they spend time on PLATO, students do not. Tonight, many students were preparing for exams in chemistry, physics, accountancy and computer science. When students enter the classroom, they usually don't know who should stay and who should go, so they just leave. My heart goes out to them because they don't have many privileges, and they don't know how to exercise what they do. On the other hand, as authors, you have many privileges and do know how to exercise them. Early tonight, I exer- cised one of my privileges and restricted the classroom to allow only students to signon. Later, I felt this was a hardship...(cont) ---------- response 3 04/18/76 23.51 green forestry I am afraid that I must disagree with the previous opinions, gameplayer that I am. Cleary posted within both 165a and 165b are the terms of the game playing policy for the two rooms. Among other things, it states that at least 7 terminals must be empty before game playing will be allowed, and that "any violation of the policy will be handled by the operator on duty". I completly agree with Mr. Harkrader's methods of this evening. Students kept arriving to do homework and found NO empty terminals, let alone the required 7. Repeated requests by the operator were entirely ignored by many of those playing games, as is the case quite often after prime time on weekends. The messages across the bottom of the screen were ignored, students kept comming to the operator trying to get on the system, and the natural result followed. The operator ---------- response 4 04/18/76 23.55 green forestry came into the rooms and ordered the offending game players to leave. I find no fault with Mr. Harkrader's actions. Inhibiting all author signons caused any author wishing to be signed in to see him personally, thereby being fore-warned about the consequences of playing games on such a night at this, when there was an exceptionally heavy load of student use after hours. Doug Green ---------- response 5 04/19/76 00.05 harkrader o ...for those people who _have_ to use their author records, so I let the authors sign in after telling them that I would eject anyone playing games. As the room filled once more, I restricted authors but allowed people who were editing to remain. I repeated this on-off cycle 3 times. The change was preceeded by a warning each time. As we all know, there's a little ritual that gameplayers go through when I announce the impending restriction: they all sit around inspecting lessons, re-reading pnotes, term- talking and reading notes. The terminal crunch continues. I turn away students. Finally, I go into the classroom and tell the gameplayers that they must do more than get out of games, they must leave the room. If anybody should be offended, it's the students that I had to turn away while trying to please everyone. ---------- response 6 04/19/76 02.19 alan hebrew And the site "controller" has less intelligence than even Al Harkrader, since the controller is simply a quiet box sitting in the corner minding it's (and 32 others') business. ---------- response 7 04/19/76 08.01 hagerman ames There is a similar crunch here at ISU, where there is at least one class which, all by its lonesome, can take up all four terminals, twenty-four hours a day, all quarter. Since we have no operator here most of the time, it is necessary for us to watchdog ourselves and each other. The problem of students who don't know their rights has come up here, too, and while I personally think the answer is to tell the students what their rights are, I can't be sure. It's a pretty problem, and I wish someone had a good, solid answer. Sauron ---------- response 8 04/19/76 08.41 a appel uni Someone ought to write a routine that would do this: 1) Find all authors who are in a selected list of games (this list would probably have to be revised often). (This ought to include students and multiples too, now that I think of it) 2) Kick them all out 3) Restrict all of their signons This routine would be used five minutes after a warning (game-players have remarkably short memories, and would be game playing by five minutes after the warning). I believe that this would be preferable to inhibiting entire courses (such as uni), when not all members of these courses are playing games. I enjoy games too, but I realize that there are limitations, and I only play them when there are few users (Sunday morning, for example). I hope this suggestion will be taken seriously. Andrew Appel ---------- response 9 04/19/76 09.23 nate iumusic The only problem with the last routine is the age-old question: What _IS_ a game? At least when a human-being is around (the operator), he can look at the situation and make a guess/exception as the case might be. How is the computer going to know that -west- is being used legitimately by one student and not by another student? We are having the same hassles down here at IU (except some of the biggest offenders are IUDEMO people). Enough said from this end. Nate ---------- response 10 04/19/76 10.32 rindal ee I hope with the money that the University makes on the CDC deal that Plato operations can be expanded , resulting in more terminals and ECS so that problems of overcrowding like last night can be alleviated. Also, the main reason for last night's situation was the closing of langlab because of airconditioning problems. That was no fault of the operator at CERL. ---------- response 11 04/19/76 11.14 artman uimatha Re: the comparison of Al Harkrader to an insane baseball umpire When one is dealing with people who act like insane baseball (or airfight, trek, moonwar, etc.) players, one may often get the best possible results by acting like an insane umpire. While I was not at CERL this weekend, on past weekends I have observed countless similiar situations, and I have watched many approaches to the problem. I feel that Al's is probably the quickest method, and definitely the method with the most lasting results. eric artman ---------- response 12 04/19/76 12.09 b sherwood s It's good to see you DO have some support, Al! Keep up the good work. ---------- response 13 04/19/76 12.48 berger mfl It's interesting to see that the person complaining is in course "ed". The department of education has 5 terminals. CERL is extending them a courtesy by allowing their authors to use CERL terminals. Rather than demanding rights on those terminals, the complainer ought to reconsider his responsibility to those nice enough to let him use their site - either that, or stay at your own site. ---------- response 14 04/19/76 14.09 a wong ed317 That attitude is easy when you have 70-80 terminals available to you 24 hours a day, Berger! As for myself, I try to follow the rules as much as possible,and there are clowns who ignore them;however, common courtesy never hurts;both in the case of authors AND that of operators. ---------- response 15 04/19/76 17.01 green forestry If we are going to start the bit about common courtesy again, what about the gamesters being courteous? Do you call it courtesy to (in effect) refuse to leave a terminal that is badly needed by a student who may want to study for a test? That student is paying money for the privaledge of using PLATO to learn. Yes, money. It's called tuition. Are those gamesters who are obstinate and refuse to leave when asked (and lawfully asked) by the operator on duty being courteous? And let me ask this: Were those same gamesters to show the very same courtesy towards students and operators which they are herein so loudly demanding, would they not recieve it? The natural reaction on the part of any authority when dealing with obstinance is to finally exert its authority and launch a barrage of orders. Past experiance has shown the futility of using ---------- response 16 04/19/76 17.14 weiss ed You people miss the whole point...I don't challange the right of the students for terminals nor the right of the site controller to remove people who aren't really working. The POINT is that I recieved NO warning (nor my friend brooks ed). Also the attitude of the Site Controller on duty should Include a little more COURTESY if he is to expect some in return. Students represent a special problem since they often don't know what to, however there are signs there that tell them where to get help. If they can't read they shouldn't be here. ---------- response 17 04/19/76 17.28 green forestry the simple, courteous methods of asking some persons to leave or suggesting that there may be a better time and place to play games. Thus, force must be used. And force prevails, this time for the better good of the whole. Doug Green ---------- response 18 04/19/76 18.19 emigh phys3 This is a reponse to the student-vs-author-playing-games conflict at Cerl (or anywhere else for that matter). I believe the operator handled the situation about as well as any human could. Plato, after all, is an educational tool and not just a plaything. Therefore all non-students on the system have soom responsibility to the students doing plato lessons. This means, for example, that when student demand is high, an author should try to get a terminal elsewhere or get off the system entirely. Last night, the physics building terminals were restricted to all authors so that students could work. In instances of high demand, I would not find this an unreasonable thing to do at Cerl. However, a more reasonable soltuion would be for the author to devel- ope a sense of responsibility toward the student. So if an author sensed that student demand was high, he would sign ---------- response 19 04/19/76 18.22 emigh phys3 off. This would include authors working on programs who don't have immediate deadlines to meet. Rules like the "seven open terminals" rule are needed because some people fail in their responsibilities to the student. When this happens there is bound to be some ten- sion as the operator tries to enforce the rules. ---------- response 20 04/19/76 20.04 green forestry Perhaps a note of this tenor belongs in PAD, but I am putting it here in keeping with the current discussion. Mr. Weiss of course ed: My suggestion to you is this. Before you make a further response, I believe that you should re-read the early responses to this note. First, several and repeated warnings were given (I myself lost count somewhere around 5) that game playing WOULD NOT be tolerated, and second, a SITE CONTROLLER is an inantimate piece of machinery sitting in a corner, while an OPERATOR is a human being inhabiting an office directly across the hall from room 165 CERL. Cordially Yours, Doug Green ---------- response 21 04/19/76 20.22 harkrader o Mr. Weiss: You claim that you were not warned about games. First, you were warned 3 times by signs when you entered the classroom. Second, I sent frequent messages to the entire site warning about games. There are a few problems with site messages; they erase the last 3 lines of text on the screen which is annoying to students, they are not displayed if you are doing full screen erases as when replotting, and they are very time-consuming to send. Third, as a frequent user of our classroom, I know that you are aware of our policies. So, if all these efforts failed to reach you, I most humbly beg your forgiveness. One comment on your last response: students do _not_ represent a special problem. They are the reason for this educational system. On the contrary, gameplayers represent a special problem, especially if it is _they_ who can't read signs. ---------- response 22 04/19/76 20.52 brooks ed It seems as though there is much uneasyness concerning peoples' attitudes and what part COURTESY plays. I was the originator of this GAMES note. I was never, never "warned". I was simply backed out. The fact is that I was working on the programming of a computer assisted game of cooperation. I was not playing. The site dir- ector did not speak to me but without warning backed me out. In fact after I was barred from use of the terminal I noted that there were in fact seven term- inals open from time to time and also that at least 5 individuals were engaged in a game of Michelin. In the future I would urge all to use a measure of courtesy. I would have gladly let any student use the terminal I was occupying. That's what PLATO is for. Bill ---------- response 23 04/19/76 21.11 clark lawyer I do not frequent CERL frequently (sorry), but it seems that the problem here is caused by one major factor: the monitor in the room cannot be expected to always act with the maximum courtesy because of the amount of time that such courtesy consumes. I agree that a little courtesy can go a long way, but there are times when quick action, rather than amiable reaction, is the only route. On a system in which there are large numbers of people, personal attention cannot always be supplied. Perhaps communicating more with the monitor on a personal level would be advisable. They are people just like anyone else and their job is to make your life on PLATO easier: talk to the monitor, don't yell at the site controller. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I have always found the people who operate this system to be helpful and generous. J. Clark Kelso ---------- response 24 04/20/76 08.29 berger mfl I hate to tell you this, gameplayers, but you WON'T see the message if your screen is constantly being updated (as in "airfight", "fishwar", etc.). You will just have to take your chances - the operators DO send the messages. ---------- response 25 04/20/76 12.45 fay o The PLATO operators have many duties which are not held by any other site monitor. Theirs is the responsibility of overseeing the smooth operation of the entire system. The classroom is a relatively small (and frequently irritating part of the job. The ops must act with dispatch and without much compassion when our site here is being misused or is overcrowded. Scheduled students have first priority at all times, followed by non-scheduled students. The "offended" parties are lucky if they were warned of their "doom": when I work I back out gamers and restrict their courses on the first offense (almost always without warning)!! We are looser during non-prime time, but it is up to the user to exercise responsibiliies implicitly granted with the use of the facility. ---------- response 26 04/20/76 14.00 harkrader o Since this is the second incident of this nature to occur during my shifts, I assume I am doing something wrong. In the future I will try to be more concerned with warnings to site abusers. I would not want to be the cause of ill feelings towards the fine group of people I work with. But, if I am to put on the sackcloth and ashes, then so must the gameplayers. The original complainers threw the word 'courtesy' around with ease, Webster defines it as cooperation and generosity. If gameplayers had courtesy for students, there would be no need for monitoring the classroom or ejecting abusers. Room 165 CERL is a class- room, not an arcade. I can't believe you weren't aware of the crunch for terminals when you entered the games. Many students got shafted by you, only you did by me. ↓If you want to continue this discussion, do it in pnotes ---------- response 27 04/20/76 15.38 weiss ed I think its about time we ended the whole mess. People are never perfect and probably shouldn't be. Granted we have to play(or not play) by the rules, but let us ALL be aware of the other guy and try to give him the benefit of doubt. Maybe its about time we opened up a group note concerning site rules,etc.. And open it to all users to try to establish better comunication to those who set rules for the different sites and maybe work out some of the wringles that exist! OK FOLKS? ---------- response 28 04/22/76 01.04 temmerman com speaking of courtesy I often get courteous messages like "ALRIGHT YOU GAME- PLAYING TURKEYS al the operator is back! no games for an hour".....ok I get the point about gameplaying at busy times....but what purpose does the above message serve... or how about bragging to students about how the plato people are terrified of you....that type of action may not be as effective as courtesy. If you tried courtesy first, it MIGHT work ---------- response 29 04/22/76 12.19 harkrader o Hmmm... 'game-playing turkeys'... hadn't thought of that one yet... Seriously, about as fierce as I've gotten in messages is signing them 'that nasty ol' operator'. I promise to ammend my evil ways (I think I said that before). I'll sign them Alan D. Harkrader III from now on. Also, some people think that I surrendered myself to the gameplayers. Wrongo. I just thought that I should point out that it is not a 'war' or a 'conflict' of policies. There are real people sitting at those terminals. Maybe Mr. Brooks and Mr. Weiss were wrong about their specific case, but their general point was a good one: let's all be a little more courteous, no matter who is on the other end. A computer can be impersonal, but let's try to keep things personal ourselves. We've said a lot in these notes, but time and notes march on. Nuff said? ---------- note 66 date 04/19/76 08.24 white p Due to an incorrect entry from the Plato console, we ran for 40 minutes early this morning with the wrong date being returned by the -date- and -day- commands. This lasted from 12:19 am till 12:59 am. The date that was returned was 4/18/76. Sorry for any problems this may have caused with your lessons. ---------- response 1 04/19/76 08.55 sellers arizona Where does the auto-clock situation stand now? ---------- note 72 plato off 04/19/76 09.29 frankel p PLATO will be off for about four hours this evening (Monday, April 19) starting at about 10 PM PLATO time. CDC engineers are working on the new computer equipment we got early last week, and need to take PLATO down so that the new computer can be hooked up. PLATO will probably be unavailable some other evening(s) this week for this work; we will let you know as far in advance as possible what the expected down times will be. ---------- note 75 lisp help 04/19/76 11.20 glenn arlc from glenn of arlc; HELP!!!! does anyone know how to use the LISP from glenn of arlc: HELP!!!!! Does anyone know how to use the compiler in the lesson LISPCOMP. I'm having trouble getting the program to accept any atoms or functions in the command string, because the compiler does'nt do the same thing with a space as the dec-10 does. I'd appreciate a reply. THANK YOU! ---------- response 1 04/19/76 11.52 broadus css try putting notes like this in cscomments ---------- response 2 04/19/76 18.00 szolyga mcl Send a note to baskin of mcl. He and I wrote the Lisp system. However, he worked on the compiler; I worked on the interpreter. A space is used as a delimiter between atoms, so I don't understand what your problem is. Tom ---------- note 80 one line 04/19/76 12.26 clark lawyer The "press next to begin" page only shows one line of any two line systems message. Students with auto- signon won't get to see the second line. ---------- response 1 04/19/76 18.28 blomme s The distinction is intentional; the 1st line is intended for system wide messages (that would apply to all users and not just authors)--and such messages indeed should be restricted to that line alone. ---------- note 82 seminar 04/19/76 12.59 golden s PLATO SEMINAR Robert B Davis CERL and Curriculum Laboratory title: Is it Wrong to be "Scientific" in Studying Education? Wednesday, April 21 Room 198 CSL, 3:00 pm Abstract: An all-day session at the AAAS meeting in Boston was devoted to the question: "Can we make a new beginning in shaping a 'science' of education?" This seminar reports on that meeting, and looks at the contrasts between how an engineer improves (say) an audio unit vs. the procedures in conventional educational "research". ---------- response 1 04/19/76 13.34 hody med sounds fantastic and much needed! ---------- response 2 04/19/76 18.03 jordan english There is a very good (opinion) article on this topic in the February KAPPAN by McKennon (spelling?). I think anyone going to hear the seminar would find it valuable reading. Pauline Jordan ---------- response 3 04/20/76 12.09 lombardo ed Agreed, very topic considering the Kappan article. dal ---------- response 4 04/20/76 12.11 boas unidel Will the proceedings be available to remote sites? We would like to get a copy here in Delaware. Any help? E↑ˇB ---------- note 85 term-talk 04/19/76 14.50 corson phar Suggestion: How about setting up the term-talk system so that when you reach a person who is busy you can leave them a half line message. Something like this; the other guy sees (corson phar wants to talk to you about[message goes here]) with a message inserted (corson phar wants to talk to you about lesson logic) This way if you wanted to talk about something important you could let the other guy know so that if he was just having a rap sesson he could consider getting off and calling back right away. Greg Corson ---------- response 1 04/19/76 15.00 bowery comm Good idea. Sounds easy to do also. ---------- response 2 04/19/76 15.39 brendan mathg I think that would be a wonderful idea for PLATO because he could be busy for a long time and it would only say on his screen, that he is busy and has been told. If this comes out, there wouldn't be any problem about missing an important call. Brendan McGinty ---------- response 3 04/19/76 18.07 jordan english I guess i must be getting old callous, but i find from my experience it doesn't matter what you want to say to someone but rather who you are that is important. i ignore the calls from people i don't generally respect and answer immediately those from people i do respect. Now, you have it--the true confessions of mean-pauline. ---------- response 4 04/19/76 19.06 temmerman com how about a systems response? ---------- response 5 04/19/76 20.55 midden s Read this note. ---------- response 6 04/20/76 08.31 berger mfl I agree with Pauline. If "instructor" of "easy1" pages me. I am far less likely to answer it, regardless of what it is about, than if "michael" of "english" pages me. ---------- response 7 04/20/76 13.20 putch arizona You are overlooking the fact, however, that since no message is currently provided for, the name and course of the caller are the only criteria that can be used to deter- mine whether and when to speak to them. If messages were allowed (and given sufficient time for people to adjust to this new data.) we would be able to make such decisions with a greater chance of being satisfied with the result. It is fallacious to reject a new and untried idea on the basis of conditions which might not prevail if/when it is implemented. ---------- response 8 04/20/76 16.30 corson phar All you people who would not bother to reply quickly to someone you don't think much of what would you do if you got something like this when someone called you. (corson phar wants to talk to you about a big error in your lesson) Really now wouldn't you answer that even if you didn't know who the hell I was? Think about it! Greg Corson ---------- response 9 04/20/76 17.14 carter comm I respect ideas; rarely people. Dr. Shockley is the best example. His instrumental work on the transistor is of obvious great importance; his recent work in race and intelligence is rubbish. The replies this suggestion generated are more interesting than the suggestion itself. I would urge jordan and berger to think about what they said; as it seems to me to be elitist snobbism. ---------- response 10 04/21/76 08.12 sellers arizona All persons are worthy of respect as people. I manage to respect most of them. Its funny too that it doesn't take me away from what I need to do, in fact I can keep what I do in better perspective as to its true importance this way. When I am really busy I find I can answer a page, be willing to really listen to what the other person has to say, and return to what ever I am doing with out serious interuption. It takes practice and will power, but it can be done. If one can spend many years getting a college education, I can spend a minute in order to be a human. ---------- note 86 pˇrints 04/19/76 14.58 dave fuller uimc The printer seems to be getting worse and worse out of adjustment. As is the facility of drum printers, things I have received for the last few days have been looking more sˆeˇrˆpeˆnˇtiˇnˇe than usual, and are getting un- readable. The question is: Is this a permanent type situation, is it the phase of the moon, am I imagining things, or what? ---------- response 1 04/19/76 15.17 frankel p Well, right now the customer engineers are kinda tied up with a few tons of new equipment (you know that). They try to keep the printer in adjustment, but it takes all morning to re-adjust each of the little hammers. There are, however, two bright stars in your print-out future -- first, the engineers should be done installing and testing the new machine in a few weeks, and might then get around to fixing the printer; second, we got a new printer (same variety, however) so you will have another chance of getting a decent print. ---------- response 2 04/19/76 18.10 corson phar Why don't you get one of IBM's new laser printers it runs 9000 lines/min and could print font chars to. And of course the price would be easy to afford. (hahahaha) Milo Mindbender ---------- response 3 04/19/76 19.58 alan hebrew But system attitudes state that if IBM does it, it must be wrong. ---------- response 4 04/19/76 20.15 koning csstaff They're right at that, too...... ---------- response 5 04/19/76 21.54 corson phar I don't know about that, most of their stuff is shit but that printer is vvvveeerrrryyyy nice. Milo Mindbender ---------- response 6 04/20/76 08.57 michael english They make nice typewriters. ---------- response 7 04/20/76 13.15 dave fuller uimc Thank you, Dave. ---------- response 8 04/20/76 14.23 wells ee and nice photocopy machines.... thats about it.... ---------- response 9 04/21/76 17.05 bob hoffman pitt Try a Data Products line printer. ---------- note 89 noteflag 04/19/76 15.27 resch nursing Upon sending a p-note, I got the message that the person to whom I sent the note will NOT have his notes flag set, since someone was editting his course. That's all the message said. It did not tell me if I have any options (do I?) or what It should do. It would seem logical to give the option at this point of not sending the note till later, but it is apparently sent even upon pressing back. As it may take some time before the reciever gets another note, it would be nice to have some way of getting around this. Hopefully, Paul Resch ---------- response 1 04/19/76 15.38 clark lawyer You can always send him a dummy note yourself later today ---------- response 2 04/19/76 15.40 resch nursing true, but that is a real waste of note space... anyone else? systems? ---------- response 3 04/19/76 18.32 blomme s The problem should be solved some day, but until then we will just issue the warning and let you decide whether guaranteeing the note flag set is important enough to you to send another note. Sorry--fixing this is not completely trivial. ---------- response 4 04/19/76 21.37 k mast p Also, by the time you get the warning (and by the time the routines know that someone else is editing the course) the note has already been sent. ---------- note 93 warnings 04/19/76 15.46 hody med i really appreciate the system note at the top of the screen reporting the existence of widespread line errors and of efforts to correct them. * without such a note, one would be tempted to hassle the local chapter of mother bell with a lot of wasted motion. this sort of warning when a known problem exists is extermely valuable! ---------- response 1 04/19/76 15.55 fay o Or one would be tempted to hassle your local chapter of PLATO operators! (Remarkable how quiet my phone has gotten since that message was put up!) ---------- response 2 04/19/76 16.01 luke cornell As I recall, Jo Bultman et al told us to inform them when line-errors became excessive. Just following orders, people.... Luke ---------- response 3 04/19/76 17.53 davis uicem "Mother Bell" ?? ...sort of like Mother and Father Kettle, or Brother Rabbit and Brother Fox, or Billy the Child, or ... ---------- response 4 04/20/76 10.10 parrello uimatha Are those phone companies too? ---------- note 97 prog. job 04/19/76 16.17 charlie mathw A programmer will be needed starting sometime in May to write and maintain various programs for the Economic Entomolgy Dept. (U of I -- Urbana Campus). Approx. 20 hrs/wk during both summer and fall. Do not want someone just for summer! Should know FORTRAN and COBOL, PL/1 and JCL are plusses. Since exact hiring time is not known, leave name, number, and quali- fications in a p-note, and you will be contacted for interview. Good pay ($3-$3,50/hr). I will be out of town till Friday, so do not expect reply until at least then. ---------- note 98 no IS 04/19/76 16.45 sherman mcl Why does your save buffer get wiped out if you: 1. save something in a source block 2. back out to directory page 3. press capitol letter to create a block 4. accidently press lab (copy from another lesson) 5. immediatly realize this and press back (without entering lesson name) 6. create a source block (no mistakes this time) 7. do IS only to find it rejects this. Of course this is no hardship if you hadnt already deleted what you saved (dumb i admit, but non the less frustrating) l. sherman ---------- response 1 04/19/76 20.56 midden s This was noted before. This will be fixed someday. ---------- response 2 04/20/76 10.57 gutfreund css Can anyone list out what sort of activities will destroy a save buffer. ---------- response 3 04/20/76 13.21 travers mxc Due to many sad experiences, I _never_ delete anything that I'm moving until the copy is safely settled in. ---------- note 99 job 04/19/76 16.54 chabay chem Student hourly help needed --- to proctor the chemistry PLATO classroom in chem annex (U of I, Urbana) during evening and weekend hours from now until the end of the semester. If you are interested in the job, contact either me or Stan Smith by pnote or phone. (chabay/chem 333-7316) stan smith/chem 333-3839) ---------- response 1 04/22/76 13.09 chabay chem The job has been filled -- thanks to everyone who responded. ---------- note 101 engelmann 04/19/76 17.07 jordan english The notes from Engelmann's seminar can be read in groupnotes file: engelmann. This refers to what gilpin mentioned in general note ¬$555. Please feel free to add comments. Pauline Jordan ---------- response 1 04/19/76 17.08 clark lawyer it is restricted ---------- response 2 04/19/76 18.00 putch arizona It is no longer restricted. ---------- note 130 resume 04/20/76 08.46 olson ced Does anyone know of any lessons on how to write a resume? Thanks.... Dennis ---------- response 1 04/20/76 13.20 white uimatha AIDS has a nice section on -jumpout resume-. ---------- response 2 04/20/76 14.00 olson ced The whole world is full of comedians..... Dennis ---------- response 3 04/20/76 16.25 iezek ames Any responses to the original note would be much appreciated. mark iezek ---------- response 4 04/20/76 20.23 dave fuller uimc The world is full of something, Dennis, but I am fairly sure that it's not comedians. ---------- response 5 04/21/76 15.08 olson ced well said Dave.... Dennis ---------- note 132 Greek 04/20/76 08.58 neff ve Are there any lessons on New Testament Greek grammar in use? Has anyone set up a N.T. Greek text and concordance? Would anyone else be interested in such lessons ? If there is any interest and no one else would like to attempt doing it, I'd like to spend some none work hours on it. (Just the text and concordance. Could not do the grammar.) neff ve ---------- note 133 get them 04/20/76 09.03 golden s Printed copies of the author agreements will be available in room 258 CERL starting at 1:00 pm today. All C-U authors are urged to get copies there as soon as possible. ---------- response 1 04/20/76 10.54 jordan english i had a dream last night that a man in a macdonald's outfit (i dream in color) gently but persistently kept asking me to repeat after him: "the University shall retain a royalty free, non-exclusive, unrestricted, irrevocable and perpetual license for use of lessonware." I would win an author sign-on if i could do it, but it just never came out right. ---------- response 2 04/20/76 13.00 golden s As mentioned earlier, you will be given two copies of the agreement, one copy of the policy statement, and one copy of the release form. Keep the policy statement (it is the governing document which defines your rights and obligations Keep the release form as a sample of the ducument you will have to fill out each time you have lessons ready for marketing. Sign both copies of the agreement and return them both to us. You will get one copy back after the University has signed. ---------- response 3 04/20/76 14.01 hody med what do you do if you are not in urbana? ---------- response 4 04/20/76 17.36 golden s You should be getting copies by Pony Express. ---------- response 5 04/20/76 18.14 hody med better than the current postal service! ---------- response 6 04/22/76 03.51 sellers arizona These forms...are they the only agreements the University will take part in? Granted a standard form is convenient, but might not the University and individual authors sometimes have something mutual to gain by 'personalized' agreements? A standard agreement is really good as a starting point but. the relations between the University and individuals are not the always the same. I can't see a standard agreement being really sensitive to the common best interest of the University and the individual. I feel the the extra sensitivity of the University to the individual would be a big step toward superior University/individual relations and healthy productivity. If anyone wants me to dig out and document the foundations of this point of view I am willing and able to to do so. comments? ---------- note 137 Superscan 04/20/76 10.53 d zweig iu When you do a superscan Cblah looking for command -blah- in a lesson....does PLATO do the same thing as would happen for Xblah and only SHOW command names, or is it trained only to LOOK at command names? ---------- response 1 04/20/76 11.03 shirer vu PLATO is smart enough to look at the command names only. ---------- response 2 04/20/76 11.25 maggs law It would be nice if there was a whole lesson search feature that was equally smart. If I want to see where I used the "do" command in a lesson, I must put up with also sorts of junk happening to contain the letters d and o in that order, all of which is picked up by the whole lesson search. ---------- response 3 04/20/76 11.39 resch nursing Try a 'Cdo_'... underscore being a space. It will only look for -do-s. ---------- response 4 04/20/76 12.26 fisher conn No.. he is talking about the lesson X search, i believe.. (press X from block display) I too would really appreciate one... it is a pain, when searching through many -use-s to find one, to have to either do the X search, therebye finding all the pauses that you had forgotten about so long ago, or go into the block and do a c search (have to hit next after each one found, and therebye you have a chance of missing the one you want... fishswne ---------- response 5 04/20/76 13.00 resch nursing Still, in full lesson X search, specify for example: use____ with the underscore representing a space. It will not stop at -pause-s or much of anything else. This works since command fields are padded with spaces till it reaches the tag field. ---------- response 6 04/20/76 13.34 fumento pso The feature may be added to the X-search lesson when I work on it this summer. ---------- note 143 shift-lab 04/20/76 11.59 ruane ll382 A suggestion - (hope it hasn't been mentioned before) Would anyone like to see a warning when they press shift-lab in the editor or the block directory if their lesson is not condensed? Possibly next to recondense, back to return to the editor. I think this would be very practical because many times I would like to take another look at a small error I spotted before, but it may not be something that is so important as to require another condense; it can wait until I have made some bigger changes to the lesson and need to recondense anyway. A warning like this would not only save your time, but it would also help keep the queue short. Any thoughts? Larry ---------- response 1 04/20/76 12.06 fisher conn I second the motion.. The same thing happens to me many times.. fishswine ---------- response 2 04/20/76 13.45 novak com Sounds good to me.... Chris ---------- response 3 04/20/76 14.19 luke cornell If your lesson has common, you can always check for common in ECS by trying to return it... Luke ---------- response 4 04/20/76 18.09 frye mfl Unless the lesson uses -common- that is also used by another lesson! ---------- response 5 04/20/76 18.16 berger mfl I just can't understand why a person would want to see a lesson only if it is already condensed! ---------- response 6 04/20/76 21.04 d williams unidel It's a matter of efficiency. Sometimes the information gained would be "helpful but not worth a new condense." ---------- response 7 04/20/76 22.52 s zweig iusn Haven't we been this route before?? ---------- response 8 04/21/76 08.36 berger mfl Can anyone tell me what would be useful to know only if the lesson is already condensed? ---------- response 9 04/22/76 01.01 d williams unidel I should have said "not worth a new condense in itself." Suppose you're in the middle of a long section of code that isn't ready to be condensed yet, and you suddenly remember a bug that you keep forgetting to test. It would be a waste to condense just for one piece of information, so the thing to do would be to write yourself a note to check the bug next time you condense. But it would be much better to just check it now. IF the condensed version is still around, you CAN do this for free. The ratio of fixes per condense rises victoriously! In other words, it's we who are both forgetful and too lazy to write ourselves notes who would benefit. ---------- response 10 04/23/76 08.39 cnb faa Negative to suggestion: 1. When you shift-LAB, if the lesson is available you get it immediately; otherwise you (usually) get the condense queue. It takes only a STOP1 to escape. 2. The only place I can think of where a warning is given before an action is taken is the (drastic) action of deleting a student. Warnings of this sort could conceiv- ably sprout up all over, ie. "Are you sure you want to sign on?", ad nauseum. Extra keypresses will be more vehemently opposed than anything else... 3. documentation comments should be used liberally--yes, even to note bugs to be fixed. If you leave tomorrow (voluntary or otherwise) it is extremely helpful to leave such notes to your successor. Craig Burson, FAA PLATO Project ---------- note 152 newmachine 04/20/76 13.18 kawell o The first word appeared on the new computer's console today: ABCD According to the engineer, Larry Crotser, "EFGH" will be working by tomorrow. ---------- response 1 04/20/76 13.34 nate iumusic When will it be potty-trained? ---------- response 2 04/20/76 13.39 bowery comm Modern science, on the road to triumph over the alphabet. ---------- response 3 04/20/76 14.58 jr lewis mtc Next week it will learn to count like other compters. ---------- response 4 04/20/76 15.02 olson ced compters? ---------- response 5 04/20/76 15.16 broadus css Is that anything like a cs proctor? ---------- response 6 04/20/76 18.13 frankel p Actually, it was the first word to appear on the new computer's console since it was installed in our building. (We got a pre-owned computer, you see. At least we know it USED to work.) ---------- response 7 04/20/76 20.30 dave fuller uimc However, it was used to pack apples in a Musselman's factory. This is how it acquired its present core memory system. ---------- response 8 04/21/76 08.19 sellers arizona Perhaps you can -use- old computer in the new computer. ---------- response 9 04/22/76 13.21 creager css When it gets to ma-ma and da-da,let us know. ---------- response 10 04/23/76 11.33 shirer vu It is a little known fact that an IBM espionage agent planted a hexadecimal core in the new computer when Larry wasn't looking, so the computer display ABCD actually shows it WAS counting! ---------- response 11 04/23/76 16.16 david hebrew Either or that, or it proves that CDC machines really are great at character manipulation... ---------- response 12 04/24/76 23.28 kent unl Seems to me that it has already done a pretty good job of manipulating a few of you characters.... ---------- note 163 noteserr? 04/20/76 14.15 luke cornell Every time I tried to read the third response to note ¬$133, I was kicked back to the note index page. This never happened anywhere else, but was repeatable when I either pressed LAB, or pressed +, or pressed "3" at this particular note and response. Luke ---------- response 1 04/20/76 14.17 buz phar As I read note ¬$133, I get to response 3 and it sends me to the index for b-notes page...is this an error or is it due to someone editing that response?? ******** ---------- response 2 04/20/76 14.22 putch arizona It must be the latter. I have no trouble getting to that response. ---------- response 3 04/20/76 14.38 luke cornell Seems to work now... ---------- response 4 04/21/76 11.27 resch nursing I ran across this once before. It seems to have something with pointers. When a new note or response is written, the pointers are reset, and the problem disappears. In any case, can something be done about it? Paul Resch ---------- note 169 .7>.7? 04/20/76 14.36 dave pcp Term calc: Enter: frac(17/10) Result: .7 Enter frac(17/10)>.7 Result: -1 Conclusion: .7>.7 This works ok for frac(7/10).....but would someone mind explaining what is happening internally to cause this? Or if it's a known bug or what....thanks.... dave ---------- response 1 04/20/76 15.25 dave fuller uimc Yeech... Tests with the author mode calculator show that: frac(17/10) = 01717 5463 1463 1463 1464 (7/10) = 01717 5463 1463 1463 146_3_ So, while frac(17/10)=(7/10), it ALSO, because of some rounding (or other) error, frac(17/10)>(7/10). I remember a discussion a while back pertaining to checks for trivial rounding errors among the logical operators, but have forgotten where it went to. Bruce Sherwood and others, help? ---------- response 2 04/20/76 22.33 whansen csa Note that 17/10 has one bit to the left of the binary point and 7/10 has zero bits to the left of the binary point When the fractional part of 17/10 is computed, it is shifted left, but a zero is shifted in. ---------- note 172 JCL?? 04/20/76 14.58 moore css Well folks, another opinion poll.......(groan). Lesson jcl is temporarily an opinion poll on what should be in a lesson on OS/360/370 JCL. Obviously I can't get everything in IBM's 300+ page manual in one little 6-part lesson.....Your cooperation in helping me determine what things SHOULD be covered will be appreciated..... Let me add that the lesson WILL contain a syntax-checker for JCL statements....what I'm interested in is what should be included in the page-turning part of the lesson -- both from the viewpoint of a student and as someone teaching programming using the 360. Thanks, R. Moore ---------- response 1 04/20/76 16.20 bowery comm By the way, some interesting research was done on artificial languages which rated on information per syntactic unit and it turns out that jcl was the lowest on the scale of all languages examined (IBM jcl that is). ---------- response 2 04/20/76 16.38 moore chema For those of you who haven't seen the lesson as it was (and will be again after I get the poll out of it), it gives you the choice of seeing JCL from 3 viewpoints: 1. IBM standard JCL; 2. U≤ˇI "standard" JCL; or 3. Both. So, if you see things in the poll you don't understand, it's probably one of the options you don't know about. I tried to include every keyword that I could think of at the time, so don't hesitate to give something a "worthless" rating...If I put all that stuff in the lesson, it'll take 36 parts....For those who worry about such, _yes_ the design will be open-ended enough to add things as IBM and CSO change their "standards". Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond to the poll so far. R. Moore ---------- note 178 site gripe 04/20/76 15.43 weiss ed In reference to public note 57 and the 30 or so comments, about Gripes at site Cerl (165a+b). Granted we have to play(or not play) by the rules, but let us ALL be aware of the other guy and try to give him the benefit of doubt. Maybe its about time we opened up a group note concerning site rules,etc.. And open it to all users to try to establish better comunication to those who set rules for the different sites and maybe work out some of the wringles that exist, instead of just complaining back and forth. ---------- response 1 04/20/76 16.22 parrello uimatha Read lesson "policy" for an exposition on the current Language Lab site policy. ---------- response 2 04/20/76 19.36 green forestry My Dear Mr. Weiss... What is a "wringle"? Yours, Doug Green ---------- response 3 04/21/76 15.07 gilomen polysci I just _tried_ to read lesson "policy" . . . . SEVERAL times! Each time was rewarded with a jumpout-q after one or two (at the most) pages. Prithee, what gives? Thanx . . . ˆBR↑ˇG! ---------- response 4 04/21/76 17.32 frye mfl Was ECS tight at your site? Lesson "policy" uses well over the 1500-word guaranteed allotment, and you could have been deleted by the system. ---------- note 183 lesson=* 04/20/76 16.37 travers mxc Suggestion: In all commands that reference a lesson (-charset-,-common-,-leslist-, maybe not -jumpout-) let a asterisk mean "the same lesson". For example: common *,testcom,322 in lesson 'zither' would reference the block 'testcom' in lesson 'zither', and would reference the same block in the same file even if the filename is changed to 'autoharp'. The main use of this feature would be to protect lesson integrity during filename changes, but it might also be nice for -use-d code, and might even have some applications to published lessons. I don't know how easy it would be to do, but it'd be nice. ---------- response 1 04/20/76 16.41 koning csstaff A cleaner way of doing this thing (has been suggested before) is to simply omit the lesson name altogether:↑↓ charset chars $$ load charset 'chars' from self. ---------- response 2 04/20/76 17.50 travers mxc That would be just as good, I suppose. The asterisk makes it a little more striking that that's what you're doing. I can bet that with the 1 argument form, a lot of new authors will wonder why charset gothic doesn't work in their lesson. ---------- note 186 catalog 04/20/76 16.46 olson ced One final annoucement to those who may have missed it. Lesson 'media' is a catalog of all instructional resources available from the dept. of media services at the Rockford School of Medicine. Anyone may use it and we would be glad to give out information on the titles. Comments may be left while in the catalog via TERM/comments, or leave a pnote to me, (olson of ced) Hope the catalog helps in some way.... Dennis ---------- note 187 runner 04/20/76 16.59 ld francis mtc CERL's own, Alec Himmich, placed in the low 300'sˆ* in the Boston Marathon yesterday. And today he has his own private energy crisis! ˆ*about 2400 started the race. ---------- note 189 logic char 04/20/76 17.24 corson phar Does anyone know where I can get a good looking charset or lineset of digital logic gates. Thanks........ Greg Corson ---------- response 1 04/21/76 05.56 t little research Try lesson pdpsrc4 charset logic. ---------- response 2 04/21/76 12.08 durkin siu Lesson charsets, charblock ee has many logic symbols in it.. look at lesson logic and rlogic for examples of their use. Contact me if you can't decipher the symbols from the "memory slots used" page. ---------- note 201 spelling? 04/20/76 20.46 jschwaiger park can anyone suggest a good spelling lesson that i might use for a secretarial sciences index..... please write replies to jschwaiger of course park signed: the SCHWAIG ---------- response 1 04/21/76 08.37 berger mfl Norm Hinton's "platospel"? ---------- response 2 04/21/76 14.49 siegel peer I have used my drill paradigm (see lesson "cfp") to set up a spelling drill.....see lesson "spell101" or "spell202". You could use the same format to input any list of words. Marty Siegel ---------- note 205 permut.gen 04/21/76 01.00 warrens uw * I need an algorithm to generate permutations of 6 numbers, but not have all of them generated. For example: if I have the numbers 1,2,3,4,1, then one permutation would be...(all start and end with 1)....1,3,2,4,1. However, another possible permutation would be...1,4,2,3,1. I do not want this last one, as it is the reverse of the first. If I can find an algorithm that will not generate those reversals, then I can save much time and space. (NOTE: don't make the algorithm PLATO dependent.) * * If this is ambiguous, or there are any questions, feel free to contact me. Randy ---------- response 1 04/21/76 09.02 avner s If they are all to begin and end with "1" then you really only want permutations of 4 numbers. If they are to be random (i.e.-no particular preference for low digits appearing in the low digit positions) then the problem is one of both generation and selection with no way around actually generating all numbers and then screening for mirror images. With 4 numbers to be permuted, there are only 24 possible ways of producing sets ( with mirror images weeded out as they appear). The least expensive way to handle things for such a restricted problem is to hand generate the sets and select one particular set randomly at time of use. The sets could be stored very cheaply in about 5 variables if packed without the leading and trailing "1". ---------- response 2 04/22/76 22.50 bowery comm PROC: rperm(P,D) * N is a global variable which is the number of digits* * varied * * P is an array of size N containing all digits * * D is the first digit to be varied * * R is an array size N which is switched to pass recursivly* IF D=N THEN CALL SHOW(P) RETURN ELSE FOR I=D,N R‎P SWITCH (R(D),R(I)) IF R(N)>R(1) CALL rperm(R,D+1) END END rperm ---------- note 212 chars 04/21/76 08.51 stephanidis iusn I need to know the name of the lesson that the charsetts are in, such as, gothic and orange and chinese.... the lesson name use to be -charsett- but has been altered leave and p-note with stephanidis/iusn....thanx ---------- response 1 04/21/76 08.58 trenton etsu note 212 is unclear! it's either this terminal or yours. anita ---------- response 2 04/21/76 09.20 jmk pso You want lesson "charsets" . ---------- note 216 databomb 04/21/76 11.26 parrello mfl This morning, a student got an execution error in one o46 our lessons. The error was a bad length in a -showa- statement. However, the datafile dump showed that the error type was 're-arrow)'. I fixed the problem in the lesson, and the student signed in again. However, the program soon blew up again because the execution error information had been written all over her student bank. Whom do I kill? Thanks, RS ---------- response 1 04/21/76 11.45 hody med how many bullets do you have? ---------- response 2 04/21/76 13.05 berger mfl Enough for all people responsible... It's not easy to rewrite a student bank full of segmented data, particularly with the student variable editor provided by the system! ---------- response 3 04/21/76 14.56 chabay s Should be fixed on non-prime time version when system is reloaded. ---------- response 4 04/21/76 20.55 blomme s The error was mine; execution error information is being passed in a different way and in the process (despite numberous checks and precautions) a couple of bugs snuck through. Sorry; these should indeed be fixed (and tested) on next version of system. P.S. How much longer will I have to wear this bullet proof vest? ---------- response 5 04/22/76 10.34 meers wright Till the next version comes up ---------- response 6 04/22/76 14.31 parrello uimatha Answered by pnote. ---------- note 219 lost data 04/21/76 11.56 meers wright Situation: At the beginning of this semester, we created a sizable number of courses, ifiles, and datasets. A small handful of instructors added their students BEFORE their datafile was attached. Unless a datafile is attached, you cannot inspect or change the students data collection options. Also, unfortunately, students created without a datafile attached to the course will have their data options ALL OFF when a datafile does get attached. Only those students who are created AFTER the datafile is attached get their data options automatically set ON.↓ A lot of what is considered 'important data' was lost because of this. To prevent this problem in the future, data options could be automatically set ON for everyone in the course when a datafile is finally attached, or at the least, a warning be given that existing students will have their data options OFF. ---------- note 223 charsets 04/21/76 13.36 novak com Just got an error in creating a charset. Evidently, a space in front of a charset name is not liked. I created the charset, and for the name I accidently hit the space bar, and then the rest of the name. I didn't think it would matter, with the space, but then when I tried to edit the new charset, when it tried to load it (by the way, how about a by-pass for new charsets), it gave me the message, "Charset Not Found". On pressing -NEXT-, I was thrown out to the author mode page. This error is repeatable. Chris ---------- response 1 04/21/76 13.59 fisher conn Interesting... it seems that space is the only one that does it.. tried several other chars as the starting char, and they all worked... but space with anything gives this error........ fishswine ---------- response 2 04/21/76 23.32 judy pso Since block names may have spaces in them, as "block 3", spaces are significant in specifying block names. i.e. charset mylesson, myset charset mylesson,my set are NOT equivalent to charset mylesson,myset charset mylesson,my set ---------- response 3 04/22/76 00.21 novak com I'm afraid I don't understand your repsonse, Judy. The error in the charset load occured when I was in _author_ mode, inside the lesson, and pressing -data- to load the charset. I was on the directory page of the charset, and when I tried to edit it, and it tried to load, I got the "Charset Not Found" message. Chris ---------- note 226 guanogap 04/21/76 14.55 roper siu I am planning to do an adaptation of The Great Guano Gap for a future issue of the SIU SF Society fanzine, The Chimaeran Review. If anyone has any objections, I will delete their name from the text and substitute something safe and innocuous. If you are willing to let your name stand, please reply either here or by p-note. If I do not receive permission, the name will be substituted for. Thanks, Quetzal ---------- response 1 04/21/76 17.47 mike capek medsiuc go ahead, i will get you later for it! ---------- response 2 04/22/76 14.43 hody med i hope there is some way to find if you are in it OTHER than reading it! ---------- response 3 04/22/76 21.02 michael english To: roper/siu From: U≤ˇI PLATO Re: Publication of our story "The Great Guano Gap" Please remit our 25; royalty payment for publication of Gˆ3 in a brown paper bag to be deposited on the lap of the Alma Mater statue at the corner of Wright and Green before midnight. Small bills only. ---------- response 4 04/23/76 09.00 roper siu AAUGH!!!!!! ---------- note 230 instructor 04/21/76 15.23 hubel ed WARNING to those who have created instructor signons for inexperienced people to manage their course(s): The new records editor now allows, by default≤≤≤≤≤≤_≤≤_ _______, an instructor to change data collection flags in a course, and code words on an instructor file, which could (and has) caused serious results. Be sure to turn off these options [(Page 3, option g), (page 4, option i), and (page 5, option f)] in the section entitled: "choose allowable instructor options" if the instructor is liable to accidentally change them, due to his inexperience. (Perhaps some of these options not be turned on by default?) ---------- response 1 04/21/76 15.55 b sherwood s An instructor CANNOT change course file security codes. That was true for a while, but my mistake was pointed out many weeks ago and fixed. It is true that an instructor can change data collection options. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 10.07 b sherwood s A thousand pardons. As you can see from my previous reply, I misread the question. An instructor cannot change a course security code, but he can change an instructor-file security code, as Hubel pointed out. Will look into! ---------- note 233 printqueue 04/21/76 15.54 obrien uicc I was hovering around the Print Log for about a half hour, waiting for confirmation that my print had been done before I re-initialized my datafile. For about a solid half hour, it claimed "your file is Now being printed". When I finally did get the message "done at xxxxxx" the time shown was at the beginning of the period. Could the log accounting machinery be easily changed to reflect more closely the real state of affairs? Or is printing actually spooled, with the time shown actually being the time the print was spooled? (In that case, the "Now being printed" might have been correct, if it was in the spooling queue all that time.) ---------- response 1 04/21/76 16.11 midden s Prints are handled with quite a bit of human interface. 1) Requests are stored for prints (names of files only). 2) An operator goes through every so often and checks each request to see if someone is playing games by requesting many many prints, etc. 3) The operator then requests the operating system to print the lesson. (again only file names are passed) 4) The operating system allows the prints to go through sometime (maybe). 5) The operator picks up the printouts and checks to make sure that they are alright (no running out of paper in the middle, ruined ribbon, etc). 6) The operator then goes through and marks each print request as done. Not exactly fully automated. ---------- response 2 04/21/76 16.15 obrien uicc That explains it. Thanks! ---------- response 3 04/21/76 16.32 tenczar s and you are foolish to destroy data before you have your print-out in hand! ---------- response 4 04/21/76 16.43 dave fuller uimc In fact, the mail is several times less reliable than our own operators... ---------- response 5 04/21/76 19.28 fay o Thanks, Dave. ---------- response 6 04/24/76 15.36 trueblood unidel I hope it's due to the mail and not the system that I missed receiving two requested prints a few weeks ago... JJT ---------- note 237 stu data? 04/21/76 16.09 jim g reading I just created a student record called "gork" in one of our reading courses. I went to look at his data options and found that: Overall data collection was on (reasonable) Some of the particular options were on some were off. These were on: output,satisfied help,satisfied term, execution errors, signon, signoff. This was unexpected. There is _no_ template selected for new records and the new record was not copied from another course. Did I miss an explanation somewhere? I don't understand why some particular options are on and some off! ---------- response 1 04/21/76 19.11 chabay s The default data options for a new student record are signon/signoff area summaries output/outputl execution errors -- Unless you change the default data options for your course -- in which case a new student record is created with those data options. (No template record need exist.) ---------- response 2 04/22/76 12.21 jim g reading Thanks, I found the right page in the records editor and all was made crystal clear. Learn something new every day... ---------- note 241 opinion 04/21/76 16.38 siegel peer A number of recent inquiries indicates that some people are not aware of lesson "opinion." "opininon" is a general opinion survey and data analysis package. The author can design the questions (multiple choice and open-ended) and then connect the appropriate use-blocks to run the survey and analyze the data. For further details, see lesson "opinion." Marty Siegel ---------- note 243 calcs err 04/21/76 16.47 johnson law I did not receive a condense error message for the following statements: calcs x=y,z‎1,2 a‎b c‎d e‎f Is this a systems error? ---------- response 1 04/21/76 17.25 frye mfl No, it is not. The -calcs- command assumes that a continued line is simply more "entries" for the -calcs-; in your ex- ample, the generated code is the same as: calcs index,z‎1,2,a‎b,c‎d,e‎f for a value of index=1, "z" and "a" are both set to "b". This ability to "continue" a calcs is almost necessary in cases when the expression being calculated is lengthy, and you might not be able to fit the entire -calcs- on one line. Of course, in your specific example, (x=y) will never be equal to anything other than -1 or 0, so the last three expressions can never be used... G. David ---------- response 2 04/21/76 19.11 bowery comm Would you have the condesor check the range of every function used in a conditional for the domain of all possible real numbers on this system and then check that against the number of arguments in the conditional to signal a condense error? like: do sqrt(1-zˆ2),u1,u2,u3 jump e↑ˆz↑ˇ,u1,u2,u3,u4 writec frac(z),u1,u2,u3,u4 Well if you want to do a phd thesis on an algorithm for the condensor that will do that and leave enough computer time to echo your keys to ask questions in notes then I'm sure the system's staff would be glad to impliment it on the system. Or was it just that you did not know that you could: calc a‎sin(b‎c) ---------- response 3 04/21/76 20.57 frye mfl Good grief, Jim. Maybe he just didn't know that the -calcs- command was continued! Why muddy up the issue? ---------- response 4 04/21/76 23.37 judy pso I think it would be fairly easy to determine that the (expression) was a true-false expression, as (a=b). It would be nice in that case, to have a condense warning: "too many tags for true/false" . ---------- response 5 04/22/76 08.15 schreiner csa The problem (human-engineering of TUTOR, that is) is really one of continuation of commands. Combined with the fact prehaps that 'calcs', 'calcc', and 'calc' are easily confused...↓ A better syntax could perhaps have been↓ calc [condition, negative, zero, one, big] $$ calcc a ‎ [condition, negative, zero, one, big] $$ calcs * the compiler _c__a__n_ detect the cases!↓ Out of curiosity, did the original author want to say↓ calcs x=y,z‎1,2↓calc a‎b↓...↓ As for the second reply - may I suggest some study of the folding capabilities of optimizing compilers? It isn't that hard to detect quite a number of impossible ranges - the logical range ¬[-1,0¬] being one of the easiest to detect. ---------- response 6 04/22/76 10.31 celia pso Yes, the intent was calcs a=b,z‎1,2 calc c‎1 d‎2 It would be nice if the missing -calc- would cause a con- dense error, since the absence of a command makes no TUTOR sense there. (If the previous line were -calcc- it might make sense.) ---------- response 7 04/22/76 11.58 frye mfl But it makes sense to me! Here's an example of where I use it: calcs (direc(player)-2),hitchk‎((deltay>0)$and$(deltay=del tax)) ((deltay=0)$and$(deltax>0)) ((deltay<0)$and$(deltax=-deltay)) ((deltay<0)$and$(deltax=0)) ((deltay<0)$and$(deltax=deltay)) ((deltay=0)$and$(deltax<0)) ((deltay>0)$and$(deltax=-deltay)) ((deltay>0)$and$(deltax=0)) You CAN'T fit this entire -calcs- on one line. Admittedly there could be a check for a boolean expression branch value, but don't take away the current capabilities... ---------- response 8 04/22/76 12.20 judy pso I think what Celia meant by "no sense" was, that since a logical expression can only have two values the other tags would never be used and thus did not "make sense". I don't think you would want it to be a condense error--- I can easily conceive of instances where for the moment a true-false expression is used, but where you don't want to change the whole -calc- statement. But a warning would be very helpful! ---------- response 9 04/22/76 15.08 bowery comm Sorry about the terminology that "muddied up" the issue. When one of the arguments in a conditional is a number that is not in the "range" of the expression (function) then that argument makes "no sense." The issue becomes clearer if one then thinks about Johnson's note being written with "frac" instead of "=". Where do we draw the line bettween those functions which ARE and those that are NOT checked by the condensor? It is not so obvious to me that "=" is that special. ---------- note 248 turnoffbug 04/21/76 18.57 hecht ed Yesterday, I "turned off" a multiple file for the remainder of the semester. Tonight I was surprized to note that the record was being used again. A little experimentation revealed that when a course is shortened (through accounts), the "turned off" flags are lost. (I haven't tested this for students, or authors, but it does happen for multiples.) Systems--is this intentional? Jim ---------- response 1 04/21/76 19.26 elston rhrc Something similar may have also messed up the (s,i,a,m) indicators on the roster page of 'rhrc'. All of our records are now indicated as (s)tudents except one created after the course shortening. -NEXT1-ing thru the records does not reset the indicators. (They had been correct after the system conversion was run). 2c≤/ ---------- response 2 04/21/76 19.52 stehle iu We have noted similar thing on roster page...some instructor are indicated on roster as, for example, name(s), others created later as name (i). Latter, of course, is correct. Any resaon for this? Also, is there a way for instructors to inspect data files? We have not discovered one, but may have missed something. ---------- response 3 04/21/76 21.04 b sherwood s Oi -- sounds like course shortening is not doing the right things! ---------- response 4 04/21/76 21.13 b sherwood s Fixed. If you have a course which is presently messed up because of shortening, drop me a pnote. ---------- response 5 04/21/76 22.29 curly iu As for accessing data files, you can get the datafile to ones own course by enterign 'data' on the choose a lesson page. This will still require the use of a codeword tho. curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 6 04/22/76 08.50 mailman ustaf Usual transliteration is "Oy", not "Oi", Bruce, if you were saying what I think you were saying. Oy, vay is mir. ---------- note 257 lines lost 04/21/76 21.11 incorvia aero I noticed a funny thing when I was editing today when I entered a block it only displayed one line and then would only display 16 more when I hit the space bar..Even though I have it set up to display 31 lines when I enter a block. Has anyone else noticed this? Is this treasured feature to be lost for a while? Glenn ---------- response 1 04/21/76 21.33 incorvia aero It is apprently fixed now..did this happen to any one else.. I quess that it was just a one time thing but it happened to any block that I went in. ---------- response 2 04/22/76 16.31 midden s I bet I know what happened. The lesson hadn't been edited since early march sometime. You went into a block. (maybe did something) Then did an "OUT". Perhaps if I'm lucky that will be fixed soon. ---------- note 267 rotate 04/22/76 04.01 sellers arizona Because of shortage of file space in account arizona I am under pressure to return some file space. Does anyone feel the need of keeping lesson rotate around? I am considering turning it back. Please respond here or leave me a pnote. Thanks, John Sellers ---------- response 1 04/22/76 13.12 iezek ames Turn it back. ---------- response 2 04/22/76 14.37 gilpin peer Presumably only a systems response is of great interest here. I cannot make that response, but I can say that I think lesson "rotate" embodies careful and thoughtful analysis and also the kind of skill at communication via PLATO that the PLATO community could use a lot more of. ---------- response 3 04/22/76 16.17 hody med i agree with gilpin-- keep it available! ---------- response 4 04/22/76 18.09 carter comm agreed ---------- note 271 jobopen 04/22/76 09.35 donchin brains Job Opening Research Associate,expert in multivariate statistics with interest in data analysis.Duties- serve as consultant to members of research group and devlop interactive (and possibly real time) statistical packages for network of pop11 supported labs and a Harris (datacraft) computer. Location- U of I. dates- immediate to 9.30.77 (possible renewal up to 4 years). Research is on brain waves (EEG) recorded in man. leave msgs to donchin of brains or send resume to Dr. Emanuel Donchin,Dept Psychology,U. of Ill, Champaign. ---------- note 272 mrouter er 04/22/76 10.03 mcdaniel uimc On 4/20/76 extensive changes were made to my instructor file I was still listed as the last author. The changes were noted immediately after I expanded the file. In principle they may have occurred any time between 4/19 and 4/20. Chronology: 6 of 9 modules in existence. Ran out of room while editing module 2. Deleted contents of seldom used module 5, finised editing module 2. Next day: Expanded file↓ I found alterations in modules 2 and 4. The most extensive were in module 2 where the most intensive editing had recently occured. The alterations consisted of interchange of 3 contiguous lines of titles with 3 catalog names of lessons. Only the titles appeared, ie, they were not inserted as lessons. At least 2 lessons had their 1 line description interchanged with the catalog title of some other lessons existing in the catalog. ---------- response 1 04/22/76 13.49 modaniel uimc There still seems to be some link between module 2 and module 3. I just altered the wording of a line of text in module 3. Then I deleted 2 blank lines in module 2 and inserted a lesson. Then I deleted one line containing that lesson in module 1(ie that lesson was moved from module 2 from module 1.) and inserted a new lesson in module 1. When I looked back at module 2, the line of text previ- ously insterted in module 3 now also appeared in with other text in module 2. ↓In other words, possibly the lengthening of my file may have and some permanent effect on the editing of this file. ---------- note 273 Thanks 04/22/76 10.23 stewart arizona To all the people who contributed to 'uaq' we wish to thank you for the questions. This lesson no longer will accept questions, and we are presently writing the lesson to answer all these questions and more. In the near future, we will release the lesson to the general system and all who have questions about the U of A will hopefully be able to get an answer from the lesson. Arizona Authors ---------- note 281 talk/notes 04/22/76 13.10 hody med a while ago there was a discussion about adding to the talk machinery an option to state what you want to talk about before the connection is actually made.... * whether you decide to take calls or reject them on the basis of issues of on the nature of the caller, there are times when it is really inconvenient to talk-- for example when burning long distance time on dial-up or when making urgent repairs, giving vip demos, or just concentrating. * what i wish people would when i can't talk to them is simply leave a p-note. this is almost always a better and more efficient means of initiating a conversation than "talk". after an exchange of pnotes, it is easy to see if "talk" is needed and it can be scheduled at mutual convenience. * no? ---------- response 1 04/22/76 13.59 corson phar Actually the idea I put forth in the note you are talking about was for a message to be delivered when someone is _busy_ talking to someone else so that you could let him know whether what you wanted to talk about was important or not. example...lesson bugs that are driving students crazy. etc. That way he would know if he should call right away or just take his time. Get the idea? Greg Corson ---------- response 2 04/22/76 15.40 baker med Oh, George, picky, picky, picky! Actually, it amazes me that people want to talk to you at all, especially if a wall is near at hand. Don't agitate your metabolism sweety, I'm only teasing, its probably a reasonable idea but one that simply adds more red tape to an already overburdened system. ---------- response 3 04/22/76 15.57 hody med not to detract from the merits of that last response, but i believe it was written from a siolen sign on... reported as such some several months ago, i think.... ---------- response 4 04/25/76 21.38 broadus css maybe somebody ought to delete the course then. ---------- note 283 offering 04/22/76 13.18 churches iu We'd like to offer for constructive comments two lessons just completed. They are the first of a series (we hope) that will survey the field of energy. The project is inspired by Dr. Siddqi here at IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs, with programming expertise contributed by Silas Warner and endurance offered by yours truly. Judging from some of the responses I've seen to other such announcements, I'm a bit leary of making it at all. As this is a first effort for me, please make them _c__0__n__s__t__r__u__c__t__i__v__e_ comments...... otherwise I may melt. The lessons are: energy1 .... a survey of energy uses energy4 ... a lifestyle index You can send me a p-note it you prefer. David Churches ---------- note 285 backwards 04/22/76 13.34 ruane ll382 Here is something kinda strange - Try this code: * unit test next test at 505 write aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa at 1005 *doto 0,n1‎50,0,-1 $$ use one of these lines first, *doto 0,n1‎0,50 $$ then the other. at 1005+n1 write a 0 * What I don't uderstand is why the backwards writing takes longer, since I relocate the screen position with an -at- each time ... ? ---------- response 1 04/22/76 15.01 dave fuller uimc Because the output formatter is smarter than both of us -- it "sees" that you are writing in progressive 8-dot increments, and optimizes the output to the terminal. Tryin incrementing in other than 8-dot spaces, and you will see what I mean. ---------- response 2 04/22/76 15.28 travers mxc That's pretty intriguing...but if the output formatter is that clever, how come it still gives me stray accent marks in the editor? (An ancient, unsquashed bug, so systems tells me.) ---------- response 3 04/22/76 16.34 midden s That type of funny bug. as the one you mentioned, comes from trying to be too clever. No one wants to try and figure out why it does what it does. ---------- response 4 04/22/76 16.36 travers mxc System hubris, I guess. ---------- note 295 overcharge 04/22/76 15.29 curly iu I noticed something VERY strange when I stopied out of a lesson today. The lesson had used >2000 words of ecs when it consisted of a measly unit command,a lineset and a single line of text. Looking in aids, I discovered (for the first time) that linesets are charged for(they didnt used to be). Now that is fine and dandy, but upon taking a closer look, I found that the charge is in ADDITION to an authors 1500 wds, leaving >1400 wds of UNUSED storage charged to me. Certainly something is wrong here. I dont appreciate being deleted when I try to do some work with code that is SUPPOSED to be small enough so as to not be subject to such violent actions. Fix it soon, curly≤≤≤≤≤¬↑ˇ↑ˆ↑ˆ↑ˆcurly ---------- response 1 04/22/76 16.39 travers mxc Do not take this as a knowing reply, but I noticed the same problem in a lesson. I also noticed that the extra charge for the lineset only appeared if I left the lesson while the lineset was in use. It appears that the new ECS allocator is able to vary a particular lesson's charge dynamically. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 10.21 michael cornell In other words, if my lesson is buffered up to 1500 words with useless storage, and I execute either a -lineset- or a -micro- command, *lcommon* goes up, but *lstorag* does not go down. Is PLATO smart enough to tell the difference between storage I want, and storage it wants, and shorten the latter when appropriate? This may be too sticky to fix...but I wish it could be done. M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- note 296 conversion 04/22/76 15.30 travers mxc Any estimate on when the ncircle¬Dcircle and related conversions will be done? ---------- response 1 04/22/76 17.02 white p Probably the middle of this summer. The conversion could have been done much earlier if we wanted to settle for a one-shot conversion routine that required a system programmer to monitor its running, but we decided to design it as a general conversion driver that we could send to multiple Plato systems to be run by operators. As such, it requires much more work than was originally expected. Also, something known as a Master's Thesis has delayed my work on the conversion routine. ---------- response 2 04/22/76 17.15 travers mxc OK, thanks for the info (and a big raspberry from all who write code generators/interpreters). ---------- note 297 helpop mar 04/22/76 15.33 bowery comm unit test arrow 1010 helpop screw unit screw at 101 * * type in a long response at the arrow that * wraps around the screen, press next for the * "no" judgement, press HELP, and press SHIFT ERASE * The arrow margin seems get lost. ---------- response 1 04/22/76 16.49 guerra uimc A similar thing happens sometimes when you use a judging sequence at an arrow that includes -judge exit-. It seems that the x-coordinate ("column number") of the last margin set (i.e. the location of the last -at- encountered) is taken as the left margin of the writing at the arrow. Strangely enough, it will work correctly if the location of the last -at- command is the same as the left margin of the writing at the arrow. So, in your case, if the helpop unit contained -at 112- rather than -at 101-, the effect would have been unnoticable. ---------- response 2 04/22/76 19.06 bowery comm Why is it strange that if the current margin is the same as the arrow margin that there should be no difference in behavior? ---------- response 3 04/23/76 09.34 guerra uimc I'm sorry I failed to speak the King's English. What I was calling strange was not the "solution" I found, but the fact that you have to go through such contortions in the first place, in order to get something to work as it appears it should. I was merely pointing out a similar, and possibly related, bug that I had once found. Take it easy, huh? ---------- response 4 04/23/76 10.25 tenczar s guerra's explanation is the best explanation that I know of...notes about errors like this appeared in public notes about 2 months ago and it was explained that: in retrospect, we have to keep lots more information at an -arrow-...like the margin, font, size, rotate, etc. there is some work in the area to do so...but don't expect much what with all the necessary work going on. so, you can "cludge" a solution by making sure the margin is left at the right place in you helpop (and font, size, etc) ---------- response 5 04/23/76 12.09 jones mcl kluge, not cludge! It really is a word in German, it means clever. (in German it may also have some ¬u stuff but I'm not that good at it) ---------- response 6 04/23/76 14.28 bowery comm Sorry, Guerra. When you "explained" the situation to me it was remeniscent of those notes where I would suggest a -comp-, -sign- etc... function only to have a million defines offered. It tends to insult my intelligence. ---------- note 308 logical op 04/22/76 17.56 travers mxc AIDS quote: "Logical operators are meaningful only when used with logical expressions. An expression such as: 47 $and$ speed is meaningless and will provide unpredictable results." How about making any expression ¬= -1 equivalent to a'false' for $and$ and $or$? It would be logical, and eliminate a source of error (since it is undefined, but produces no error indication.) ---------- response 1 04/22/76 19.05 white p We can achieve some sense of speed if we leave the logical operators undefined for non-logical values, allowing us to produce code that works fastest for logical values, though maybe strangely for non-logical values. In this particular case, it is easier for us to test for zero and assume all other things are "true", than it is to test for -1 and assume all other things are "false". This action, however, may change at any time, and without warning. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 12.13 jones mcl The whole thing could be made right if 'tudor' had some type checking and could then either generate an error if the types of the operators on $and$ and $or$ were not Boolean (T/F) or it could stuff in slower but more general code in that case. (TUTORF, I know) ---------- response 3 04/25/76 21.47 broadus css the great thing about tutor is that you don't have to make conversions between different types of variables. And you want to change that on all of us bit-crunchers? How cruel can you get? Bob Broadus ---------- note 314 course./ 04/22/76 21.20 warner iu Suggestion: Would it be possible on the course page to bump periods, commas, and slashes in addition to capitals? Pressing ? while trying to hit STOP1 is a minor hassle encountered by fast-typing authors, leading to "Course 'iued/' does not exist." Bumping of periods and commas, on the other hand, is suggested to aid new students. A student is told, in class, to use course name "IU music". He types "IU music" on the course page and gets in in course iumusic. The fellow next to him types in "I.U. music" and gets rejected. This leads to the infamous cry to the consultants; "But he did just the same thing and he got in all right!" Since periods and commas are not acceptable in course names anyway, bumping them will produce no inconvenience for any present users. ---------- response 1 04/22/76 22.02 b sherwood s Sounds right to me. ---------- response 2 04/25/76 21.48 broadus css semicolons too please! ---------- note 315 spacenotes 04/22/76 21.42 michael english FILE: spacenotes Since earliest man first scratched his furry, sloping brow and gazed at the stars, wondering, our species has been pre- paring itself for that last, great quantum leap which will free us forever from the shackles of Earth. This file is intended to serve as a focal point for those longings, to discuss the goals, means and implications of space travel. Being future-oriented, topics will be dis- cussed that may seem to border on the impossible, even the fanciful. However, a solid grounding in current technology coupled with an appreciation for the lessons of history can go far towards freeing the imagination. And there is the crux, for lack of will and imagination can imprison mankind; history teaches that "impossibility" only slows us down. Contributions from the fields of astrophysics, cosmology, sociology, SF, medicine and mathematics are solicited. ---------- note 320 SD again 04/23/76 09.23 buz phar Noticed while using SD... draw a straight horizontal line in G grid, then put an arc which is < 2 lines high at the end of it...the cursor gets put 4 dots above the normal G grid. but moving it still goes in 8 dot increments, making the rest of the display half a line off. Repeatable...more info on request. buz ---------- response 1 04/23/76 19.55 midden s uh, I think I have this fixed in the next version coming up tonight, hopefully. If not, let me know via a pnote. M.Midden ---------- note 322 comp graf 04/23/76 09.41 ostuni iu Hello you Chicagoans out in Yonderland: I need to know with all deliberate speed the precise location, date, and times of this here Computer Graphics hoodo up there in Chicago...for all I can remember it has already begun! With much gratitudes, A. John Ostuni... ---------- response 1 04/23/76 09.56 simons cs196 i got a free ticket to some computer convention that was in mccormick place..... only thing, it took place april 13,14,15. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 10.07 ostuni iu No thats not it this is a real time video-computer graphics show...and in late april(like now). ---------- response 3 04/23/76 10.13 travers mxc It's at Circle Campus, Science + Engineering South, in the Rotunda. For more info, I think the man to talk to is kemp/uicca. ---------- response 4 04/23/76 17.09 kemp uicca That's right, it is in its second night of per- formance tonight, Tomorrow is the last day, so you better come quick. By the way, tomorrow looks like a biggie, so I would get here a little earlier than usual. For all the info you need, look at note ¬$227, of 4/8; and if that isn't enough, page me..... Larry ---------- note 323 ¬; in edit 04/23/76 09.45 buz phar I seem to have started seeing accent marks in my tooter code where there are none (according to H option). Very consistant, it is always the ¬; mark and always after 1 particular pause at the bottom of my screen. ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ $*≤ ¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤this can be rather¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ *≤ ¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤¬≤unnerving. ---------- response 1 04/23/76 09.52 nudelman css I have seen this problem too; I kept getting a access-c ( ¬c) in a line, but only when it was at the bottom of the screen. I have heard that this is a known problem. * Mark Nudelman * ---------- response 2 04/23/76 10.14 travers mxc See note ¬$285, responses 2 and 3. ---------- response 3 04/23/76 10.26 parrello uimatha ....and don't do any animation in "notes". Bruce Parrello substituting for Dave Fuller ---------- response 4 04/25/76 21.54 broadus css shouldn't that response be in pad? ---------- note 325 game of L 04/23/76 09.53 roh pdg Does anyone know of programs for the "game of Life" or something which will introduce a student to cellular automata theory or smallest unit representation? Think you for any help. C. Roh (217-333-4348)(Urbana) ---------- response 1 04/23/76 10.24 alan hebrew If you mean Conway's game of life, and not the Milton Bradley game by the same name, try lesson "rose". ---------- response 2 04/23/76 10.33 tenczar s also see the simulation in -autop- ---------- response 3 04/23/76 13.22 dave fuller uimc You could contact Danny Sleator (danny-research) who is the author of the algorithm in "rose", as well as an n by n version for pdp11 and plasma panel (plus some core). If you happen to have a CDC 6000 - series machine laying around, Doug Brown (doug brown-p) has a dandy one that works on the console of such a machine. ---------- note 336 aro crunch 04/23/76 10.41 feugen mfl re: helpop, labop, etc. It seems that when one uses an inhibited arrow under- neath an already-plotted character, pressing help (helpop) will erase an arrow at the inhibited arrow's location, thus crunching the aforementioned character. (m - ¬6 = m≤[¬6> $). (helpop unit contains an uninhibited arrow.) I fully realize that a kludge-fix might be to make sure that in every case the arrow arrow falls where there is no character, but this does little for the aesthetic effects of spacing, etc. Is it possible to get a fix, or is tooter going to have to live with this one? Hugo Feugen P.S. Of course, one could move the arrow up a line then press a CR into the student response.....(sheesh). ---------- response 1 04/23/76 12.01 fay o I have learned to live with the problem, but do find the phenomenon esthetically displeasing. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 15.40 andersen s Unless I'm mistaken the main unit arrow will only be erased if an -inhibit blank- has been done so that an arrow in the helpop unit will be plotted ... ---------- response 3 04/23/76 17.31 blomme s As Paul Tenczar wrote in a response to another similar note a ways back, there is a great deal of status that is associated with an arrow (size, rotate, inhibits, etc.) and it simply is not all being kept and restored in some cases. We are aware of quite a few of the problems, but a proper fix to them all at the system level may not be forthcoming for a while--sorry. ---------- response 4 04/23/76 22.01 feugen mfl re: andersen's comment No, there is no -inhibit blanks-. Thanks for the responses, anyway. HF ---------- response 5 04/24/76 14.46 artman uimatha Before anyone wonders why this note is doing some strange things during non-prime time, let me explain someting. To demonstrate the "scrunched" character, Hugo some of the "unreleased" keys which shift the terminal mode from 'write' to 'erase', etc. He also happened to use one which starts backwards writing during the times that the systems people are testing backwards writing. Hence, the strange effects. hopefully helpfully, eric artman ---------- response 6 04/24/76 16.08 trueblood unidel was just going to ask about that... J¬≤T ---------- response 7 04/25/76 14.19 feugen mfl yeah, well, I was trying to get the right shift - assign to do the arrow in mode erase over the top of the 'm', and I evidently got it wrong before I got it right. (I'da changed it, but it won't let me edit my note.) Hugo Feugen ---------- response 8 04/26/76 10.18 roper siu I hate to say this, but it seems to be doing strange things during prime time too... Quetzal ---------- note 337 mathw note 04/23/76 11.01 michael cornell Course "mathw", your notesfile is full (in case you hadn't noticed). M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 1 04/23/76 15.46 k mast p PLEASE! The people in mathw are adequately warned when they try to read their notes! No further warning is needed. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 17.15 michael cornell I hereby offer most humble apology for criticizing program written by able and slick programmer Kim Mast. M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- resopnse 3 04/25/76 21.59 broadus css why not give a more alarming display than the 80 : display when notes are completely full. ---------- response 4 04/26/76 15.06 meers wright Would computing the actual percentage be feasible? ---------- note 342 brainsnote 04/23/76 13.16 roman brains Anyone interested may access the notes file for course brains, 'brainsnote'. The brains course and the brainsnote file are organized to study the possibility of using information in the human brainwave to enhance the performance of a CAI system. The first few notes in the file give some general idea about what we are doing. Later notes will ask for help on specific projects. Other notes will be for our internal communication about the experiments we are running. ---------- response 1 04/23/76 13.23 clark lawyer seems to be restricted...is that intended? ---------- response 2 04/23/76 13.34 roman brains Access is now open. Sorry you were too fast!! ---------- response 3 04/23/76 13.45 hinton ssu Still restricted. ndh ---------- response 4 04/23/76 14.20 roman brains Now I got it! Used STOP1 to leave the file and that cancelled the changes. ---------- response 5 04/26/76 15.46 jordan english My sympathy to anyone who is trying to set the options for a groupnote file the first time. Sometimes it amazes me how we EVER teach anything in any medium when it is so difficult to explain oneself. ---------- note 347 off Sat. 04/23/76 14.12 golden s PLATO will be off noon to 4pm tomorrow, April 24, so that the CDC engineers can continue to connect/test the new computer equipment. ---------- note 348 c.edit err 04/23/76 14.19 don emerick mtc In "course editor" for "mtc" , option 5, suboption e: "managing personal notes file", the following curious error occurs (repeatedly) as follows: 1. enter name of person whose notes are to be deleted - 2. if that person's course record still exists, then 3. on pressing NEXT twice to move forward to next page of listing of authors with pnotes, observe that the info displayed in the column "currently used" "maximum ..." "total possible" the data changed from 248, 297, 300, respectively to 444, 297, 496. 4. on returning to ist page of this listing, tho, the error disappears and the original info is displayed again. ---------- response 1 04/23/76 15.40 k mast p Interesting! Will check it out. Thank you. ---------- note 351 mathstu10 04/23/76 15.31 s gray mathstu To whoever it may concern: Would those people who are using mathstu10 please change the security code bace to what it was. I have two friends who have blocks in it and it is impossible for them to edit, eather tell them the code or change it to what it was. Please contact me (s gray/mathstu)or eather one of my friends (bobby j/mathstu or lee j/mathstu) Thank You Stephen Gray ---------- response 1 04/23/76 17.02 perry uw Your account director, if you know who he/she is, can clear the password for you. ---------- note 355 zcondok! 04/23/76 16.03 travers mxc Thank you Phil Mast for zcondok!!!! ---------- response 1 04/23/76 16.36 david hebrew Agreed. A truly elegant addition to the language. E. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 17.23 michael cornell In the interest of better information content, how about: -1 if no condense errors of warnings 0 if just warnings 1 if at least one true error M↑ˇi↑ˇk↑ˇe O↑ˆl↑ˆt↑ˆz ---------- response 3 04/24/76 11.28 alan reading Very nice indeed! Last suggestion is good. ---------- note 357 register 04/23/76 16.22 rick hebrew A few questions regarding the "re-registration" process... 1) What will be the determining factor for deciding who the director of a given course is? Course ownership is not necessarily the same as course directorship. 2) How are the course directors to be notified, since they most likely have author records, which will be turned off? Also, who do they see to get THEIR records turned on? 3) How is the course director to know which of those authors in his/her course have signed the forms? 4) What happens if the course director fails to sign the forms? 5) Will there be any kind of message put onto the "turned-off" page explaining the reason for those who do not usually read system features? ---------- response 1 04/23/76 16.25 golden s Please hold off on questions like these. We are aware of the problems and solutions have been proposed but not implemented. Since the answers may change, I don't want to answer here and now. Every effort will be made to reduce the inconvenience and confusion caused by this change. On the other hand, a complete reregistraion of authors may turn out to be useful in weeding out records which should have been deleted long ago and in reminding course directors that they are responsible for the authors in their course and should always know who they are and roughly what they are doing. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 17.06 mike b cornell I think that if these questions of procedure have not been settled it might have been a good idea not to make the announcement just yet. The result can only be confu- sion and (in some cases at least) anxiety. A more clear formulation of procedure would be more valuable than this early, but incomplete, warning. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 3 04/23/76 17.51 b sherwood s One thing UI authors should do IMMEDIATELY is sign the agreement. Forms are available at CERL 8-12 and 1-5 Monday thru Friday. I believe forms have also been sent to the other UI campuses. ---------- response 4 04/23/76 19.12 hody med i don't understand what is meant by a UI author... what about people who work for UI but are not physically on campus? are they UI authors by this definition? and if so where do they get forms? (i know: pony express) ---------- response 5 04/23/76 20.13 b sherwood s UI authors for this purpose are 1) employees of UI 2) students of UI 3) non-paying users of UI terminals Non-UI authors are people who are not employees or students of UI, and who use their own terminals (Purdue, IU, FAA, etc.). ---------- response 6 04/23/76 21.59 clark lawyer What about those of us who are included in two categories: 1) program for a non-university group and 2) a student at the university Is there a priority system to take care of this type of problem? ---------- response 7 04/24/76 10.17 b sherwood s You will probably have to have two different author records. ---------- response 8 04/24/76 10.47 judy pso mike b/cornell ¬+ others: Yes, it is unfortunate to have to make announcements with- out having a complete policy and plan formulated. 1) This requirement to have everybody sign the agreement by May 1 or lose their author records is a requirement imposed on CERL by the wording of the contract signed by the university of Illinois. The systems people and others involved here (such as Shiela, poor thing!) would have liked more time--but that's how life is. 2) Since the systems people will be working frantically right up to the deadline, it seems reasonable that Bill put a notice in notes even if it had to be incomplete. At least you know that a few days around may 1 will probably be rather chaotic. You can try to plan your work with that in mind. ---------- response 9 04/24/76 15.10 artman uimatha Is this policy meant to restrict authors to their supporting institution only? If someone from 'iu' or 'pfw' comes to Illinois for a visit, will he be unable to sign on? For if he is able to sign on, it would seem that he would fall into the "other" author catagory (the 20: group). If this is the case, I am sad to see the downfall of the "open- house" approach at CERL, for in many cases the personal contact from meeting someone from outside Illinois here greatly added to my author experience. Which leads us back to the question originally proposed by Peter Maggs, I think: Why was this whole she-bang tied to author records instead of file spaces???? (Yes, I read the answer too.......(sigh)..) eric artman ---------- response 10 04/24/76 15.17 nate iumusic This is definately something I'd like know, as I have a habit of making periodic visits to Illinois, and I know several other people who make more than just periodic visits...hello? Nate Syfrig ---------- response 11 04/24/76 16.05 b sherwood s IF we end up having to limit UI terminals to UI authors, we will have to set up some kind of "guest" records of temporary duration. But none of this is coming right away -- we must first fix the major points. ---------- response 12 04/24/76 22.38 golden s I don't see the need to close our facilities to visitors. You are always welcome to come here and work for a few hours or a few days. If you make an extended visit and create a lesson here. it could be that the University will have a claim on the lesson it wouldn't have if you worked elsewhere That is unfortunate, but it won't come up often. ---------- note 359 charclear 04/23/76 16.33 dave matha After this sequence: charset A inhibit charclear charset B a chartst for A is false. If charset B is replaced with char commands. the chartst for A is true. Is this the way this is supposed to work? (It's not clear from Aids.) ---------- response 1 04/23/76 17.37 blomme s Yes. Only one charset can be listed as in use at a time. The inhibit charclear simply provides a means of doing -char- commands without causing the name of the last charset to be wiped out. Loading another charset will always necessarily reset the name of the last charset loaded. ---------- response 2 04/23/76 20.24 dave matha Thanks. ---------- response 3 04/24/76 10.48 judy pso Will clarify AIDS. ---------- note 368 enable_c_ 04/23/76 17.41 mike b cornell How About It Department: As far as I can ascertain, there is currently no way to conditionally enable/disable the touch panel, except to write a kludgey -branch- structure. Wouldn't it be simple, logical, clean, consistent--even patriotic-- to have a single command with a _tag_ which would allow for conditional enabling/disabling of the touch panel? I realize the current work load on the systems staff is very heavy, but, in the continuing search for a simple, _consistent_, authoring language, I think this is a change worth considering. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 1 04/23/76 17.43 michael cornell I second the second paragraph especially... M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇO (hehe) ---------- response 2 04/23/76 18.38 t little research And while we are on the subject. What is the reason the system locks our external inputs through software? As I understand the current hardware setup the touch panel has and enable/disable function which prevents it from generating output if its disabled. If this is the case it would seem that the software is doing more then is necessary. The reason for this note is that enables get enabled/disabled at strange times and when working with external devices or intelligent terminals it becomes a hassle to have to put enables everywhere if the hardware doesn't need them. Todd ---------- note 371 is comp? 04/23/76 18.11 bob hoffman pitt This is a question just out of curiosity: I found out only recently that this machine uses one's-complement arithmetic. Are there any other machines on the market today that do? I was under the impression that all modern computers were 2's complement machines, Also...are there any sign- magnitude computers around? BO≤*≤o≤$B ---------- response 1 04/23/76 19.04 dyer meduser A simple test (TERM calc) will verify that the bit patterns for -0 and 0 are indeed different. The one's complement representation makes it inherently simple to negate a number (bitwise complementation). But this necessitates an end-around carry of the high-order carry bit when doing addition. That last part is what is considered "messy" by some designers. It just depends on what is considered "in" for computer design. Apparently now two's complement (not requiring end-around carry) is considered more aesthetic than one's complement arithmetic. NOTE: That last statement does _NOT_ imply that one's complement machines are inferior. Jerry↑ˇDyer ---------- response 2 04/23/76 19.55 blomme s Note that the " messy" part is there for two's complement machines in that negation there requires bitwise complementing plus the addition of 1 (which can propagate). The "mess" is there either way. One's complement does have something in its favor: all bits are "equivalent" -- carries off the top bit are added in to the bottom one. You can thus move the binary point (with regard to simple integer aritmetic) anywhere you like. It also has an equal range in positive and negative numbers (if that is an advantage). It suffers from having two different representations for 0. Two's complement has the advantage of having only one representation for 0. It has one more number in its negative range than in the positive one (if that is a disadvantage). The choice really is mainly related to circuitry and speed/economics considerations (as well as the designer's preference perhaps). ---------- response 3 04/23/76 23.15 frye mfl Burroughs machines are sign-magnitude. ---------- response 4 04/24/76 03.22 dave infe Does the branch-on-zero on 6500 consider (-0) = 0? If so, will we ever get to use this feature? (e.g. $eq$: I get tired of writing 'bitcnt(x)=0'). ---------- response 5 04/24/76 09.39 david hebrew In light of the preceding, I once again bring up the suggestion for a "bitwise equivalence" operator. Since '¬)' is not being used for anything important at the moment, it would appear to make a good candidate. With the '¬)' (or 'is') operator: a ¬) b returns TRUE iff _a_ and _b_ have the same bit patterns Thus: 0 ¬) 0 returns true -0 ¬) 0 returns false If it is too difficult to use '¬) bksp /' ('¬)≤/') for the 'is not' operator, you can always use: branch not(a¬)b) ---------- note 383 unit names 04/24/76 03.17 dave infe There's a lot of irregularity and fluidity in the names that units can have. Sometimes any string up to 8 characters that doesn't contain semicolon or comma is ok. Sometimes leading blanks are ok before digits but not before letters, and so on. What's the most liberal definition of a unit name that will always work? Thanks. ---------- note 388 more regis 04/24/76 10.47 b sherwood s As procedures are worked out, author re-registration details will be described as responses to the "reregister" note in new system announcements. For example, see the current addition there, asking account directors to send to the write-only gnotes file "acourse" the names of those courses which after May 1 can still contain author records. ---------- note 398 pubnotes 04/24/76 20.11 alan hebrew Why can instructors read new system features notes but not read or write public notes? ---------- response 1 04/24/76 22.45 woolley p I'll change it to allow instructors to read public notes. ---------- response 2 04/25/76 17.12 b sherwood s Shouldn't they be able to write as well as read? ---------- note 399 stud sign 04/24/76 20.38 alan hebrew Section 7 in the "Agreement for PLATO Instructional Materials Development" reads as follows: "It is understood and agreed that the Author will not provide any other person with access to the University's PLATO system,¬ .¬ .¬ ." Notice that this means that students (and every user of a multiple) at the U of I must sign one of these sets of forms. Is there a discount rate on 36,000 copies of these forms? ---------- response 1 04/24/76 22.59 golden s Only authors need sign. The intention of the quoted passage is to prevent passing on your author record, something which has always been frowned upon. ---------- response 2 04/25/76 00.59 alan hebrew But that isn't what it says, and people signing are bound by the actual wording, not the intent. ---------- response 3 04/26/76 08.05 maggs law Contracts can always be modified by mutual consent. I would assume that, for instance, making someone a course director would clearly by implication free him from any obligation that might be read into the contract that he not make student records. ---------- response 4 04/26/76 08.18 artman uimatha Can we assume that giving a "hands-on" demo is (or will be) one of these areas in which there is mutual agreement, and forego any legalities in order that I can show my parents what I'm doing when I'm not in my room at 3 am? eric artman ---------- note 401 langlab 04/24/76 22.39 marty mfl Note to authors working for the langlab account. Re response 1 to system features note 157 (Bruce Sherwood): All authors working for the langlab account should see me or Dr. Keith Myers before May 1. This does NOT apply to authors currently listed in the mfl course. ---------- note 406 now on cdt 04/25/76 08.09 loitz o At 2:00 AM Urbana time Plato went from Central Standard Time to Central Daylight Time. The clocks were moved forward one hour thereby giving more hours of light in the late afternoon. ---------- response 1 04/25/76 10.09 clark lawyer Will PLATO still go down at ten? Will the morning hours be held the same? ---------- response 2 04/25/76 12.10 frankel p Yes -- Prime Time hours are the same. (7:40 - 10:00) ---------- note 408 smoke? 04/25/76 11.45 nicholson ed317 Announcing another survey! This one concerns itself with how you perceive different brands of cigarettes. You do not have to be a cigarette smoker to take it. It's being run for a Consumer Behavior class project so please help me out and take it. It will take no more than 5 minutes of your time. The survey is in lesson -ed317s-. Thanks a lot! Al Nicholson ---------- response 1 04/25/76 14.28 feugen mfl As long as one person has gone so bold as public notes for his survey, I would like to announce that yet another survey resides in lesson 'adjectives'. It will also take no more that five minutesof your time (I can go through it in about 1 and 1/2 minutes). I would just love to get all kinds of data, so feel free! Hugo Feugen ---------- response 2 04/25/76 19.25 green forestry Before you waste your time in "adjecticves", wait till the thing works! I typed in the numeral "3" at the first (and last arrow I was given), it was judged no, and I was told to pick a number between 1 and 7..... It may have changed since I went to school, but at that time, 3 certainly was between 1 and 7. Perhaps the thing needs a little work?..... ---------- response 3 04/25/76 22.12 hinton ssu The number judging worked last night: the only thing I noticed was a carryover "no" judging from the last NEXT-- probably -long 1- is to blame. ndh ---------- response 4 04/25/76 22.22 clegg amesrad Hate to say this, but I entered every number from 1 to 7, and each time I was told to choose a number from 1 to 7 . . . . ---------- response 5 04/25/76 22.53 feugen mfl yes, well, blame it on the Red Sweater. He did it. It is now fixed completely, thanks to these not-so indirect notes being called to my attention. thanks for trying it, Hugo Feugen ---------- response 6 04/27/76 09.06 trausch uimc Regarding the ed317s survey: How can those questions be answered by someone who has never smoked? The questions ask you if there is any difference between two given brands of cigarettes, but if you have never smoked, how in the world can you answer the question with any pretence of intelligence? ---------- response 7 04/27/76 18.26 danny research It seems to me that these surveys will be meaningless anyway because of the highly selected subjects. (Only a certain type of person is willing to spend 5 minutes on such a thing.) I assume you are not taking these biased results seriously. ---------- note 411 game ideas 04/25/76 14.21 d swallow hum ANNOUNCING!!!!!!! "game idea" notes residing in lesson "hum13" we want your ideas on new and ingenious games you would like to have on PLATO. ---------- response 1 04/25/76 22.21 broadus css hummmmmmmmmm I can't think of any right now. ---------- note 414 suˆp suˇb 04/25/76 15.28 tenczar s to keep everyone informed...on NEXT deadstart tape... superscripts and subscripts are finally handled properly in answer judging... any of the following forms of Hˇ2SOˇ4 are identical: (where * is shift, ¬W is superscript, ¬X subscript) H¬X2SO¬X4 , H*¬X2*¬WSO¬X¬W¬X4 , ¬W¬X¬W¬XH¬X¬X¬W2SO*¬X4*¬W ...ad infinitum indeed, any way to type in Hˇ2SOˇ4 (without using backspaces) turns out the same in judging. IF IT LOOKS THE SAME, IT JUDGES THE SAME. if words go up and down, they must match the up-and-downness of the words in the author's answer...for the level of every character of every word is kept for the entire line. ---------- response 1 04/25/76 15.30 tenczar s this affects the following commands: answer,wrong,answerc,wrongc,concept,miscon,match ---------- response 2 04/25/76 16.49 parrello mfl Hooray and thanks! ---------- response 3 04/25/76 17.13 b sherwood s NICE! ---------- response 4 04/25/76 18.16 gilpin peer suˆp erˇb ---------- response 5 04/25/76 21.33 incorvia aero vˆunˆderˆbaˆr Gˆleˇnn ---------- response 6 04/26/76 15.34 putch arizona What a relief! ---------- note 416 instrctalk 04/25/76 15.37 s zweig iusn It is impossible now to page an instructor via term -talk-. Is this modifiable (i.e. as in author records) or is this now on the workboard??!? Ʃteve ---------- response 1 04/25/76 15.50 nate iumusic wrong....if the instructor signon goes into lesson -user- and press LAB to set his flags, he is then pageable.... Nate ---------- response 2 04/25/76 16.46 s zweig iusn Thanks nate. Ʃteve ---------- response 3 04/25/76 17.12 boggs biocc How about making this a more accessable option for instructors, rather than having it necessary to enter "user," which few of our instructors even know exists. a P.S. to those who have desperately wanted to contact an instructor with his/her -talk- options off: in an emergency, the operator on duty CAN page someone with their options off. ---------- response 4 04/25/76 17.14 b sherwood s Yes, we will clean this up. And it is clear that talk flags should be ON by default for a new author or instructor record, not OFF! ---------- response 5 04/25/76 17.23 chabay chem I agree. However, I think we should be careful to initialize new author records with the flag allowing the person to be listed in "user" off. Nobody should be listed there until he knows what it is. ---------- response 6 04/25/76 20.54 b sherwood s Agreed. ---------- response 7 04/25/76 21.30 alan hebrew Externals off, too. ---------- note 420 zcondok 2 04/25/76 16.54 fries ee The new command zcondok seems to be useful for some aplications; yet it would seem to be even _more_ useful if it would return the number of errors and/or warnings rather than just indicating they occured. Some times the author knows there are a given number of errors, and would be more interested in knowing if the error count exceeds what is expected. If this were the case I see no need to distinguish between errors and warnings. EˇE ---------- response 1 04/26/76 18.22 phil mast p We have always required working system lessons to be completely free of condense errors, and have usually encouraged users to do the same. I question whether adding new -zcondok- features wouldn't make users take warning messages less seriously than they should. Are there reasonable cases where people can't easily remove all condense errors? ---------- response 2 04/26/76 21.21 berger mfl Depends on how reasonable the system is, Phil. Look how long some of those "obsolete jumpout type" errors remained in lessons! ---------- note 426 dither Q 04/25/76 17.36 corson phar Question??????????????? Lesson -dither- is very interesting but there is one thing that I would like to know. How are the pictures put into it????? Surely not by hand I hope! Somebody please tell me how I am really interested. Greg Corson ---------- response 1 04/25/76 17.51 clark lawyer Talk to Drew White (white/research)...he is the author ---------- response 2 04/26/76 13.43 gutfreund css I am pretty sure he used a digital photodensiometer. ---------- response 3 04/26/76 14.31 stone research Drew uses a digitizing camera which is connected to the csl DEC-10. the digital information is 'dithered' in the DEC-10, and then transfered (slowly) to plato as external input keys. ---------- note 430 catnotes 04/25/76 19.30 s zweig iusn It is now impossible to enter names of gnote files in the lesson catalog in 'mrouter'. Is this intentional??!? Will it be fixed?? Ʃteve ---------- response 1 04/25/76 21.46 hinton ssu You can, of course, enter a lesson that accesses a gnote file--but this is a roundabout way of doing it. ---------- response 2 04/26/76 08.13 berger mfl If is intentional because it is not yet a "guaranteed" system feature that a direct jumpout to a group notes file will access that file. ---------- note 435 dga notes 04/25/76 21.43 donald appleman cerl P-note file to donald appleman/cerl is now full (unfortunately, and temporarily). Any notes to him should be sent to charles engels/cerl or dan laberge/cerl..... I will receive them almost as fast there. thank-you, this should only be necessary for a day or two at the most.. donald appleman/cerl ---------- response 1 04/25/76 22.27 broadus css why not leave this as a message when someone tries to send you a note. Oh thats right, you have to delete your notes first. ---------- response 2 04/26/76 00.13 alan hebrew Why not save your notes in a lesson space? ---------- response 3 04/26/76 08.14 berger mfl You really ought to have someone explain to you how personal notes really work. You'll find that you are preventing a LOT of people from receiving notes if you keep your own space full. ---------- response 4 04/27/76 16.18 donald appleman cerl Disregard the original note.... To berger/mfl: my portion of the notefile when I have it empty represents an amazing percentage of the course space..... I am not the only one who has a lot of notes... this lasted only ad matter of hours as it turned out, and course limit was under 80: full anyway (which isnt good, but still allows notes to be written) Thanx all....... dga ---------- note 439 ID error 04/25/76 21.51 incorvia aero Noticed an error in the ID editor today... Went to the left margain set point for an arc, then went five spaces over and one diagonal up set other point, then went three spaces over and one diagonal down and set last point. The position then listed at the bottom of the screen had a *** in it and it did funny things in the SD. Glenn ---------- response 1 04/25/76 22.12 kalberg mflu It looks funny to see a cursor position of: GROSS GRID (***,248) = **** and have the cursor replotted at some strange place on the screen. The code produced: atnm -1784,248 ncircle 1928,7,-7 condenses more or less correctly, but does not work when returning to the SD editor. ---------- response 2 04/26/76 14.05 incorvia aero I did get an error when I condensed but it reproduced ok in SD here is an example of the code I got generated................. atnm 5425 ncircle 532,111,97 and I got an error with the atnm 5425 . Systems response please.. Glenn ---------- response 3 04/26/76 16.34 midden s uh. ---------- note 448 when in? 04/25/76 22.30 broadus css Exactly when do the U≤ˇI Author papers have to be in? i.e. time and date. Bob Broadus ---------- response 1 04/25/76 23.35 frankel p Aim for BEFORE May 1 (i.e., Friday). ---------- response 2 04/26/76 11.12 broadus css what time? ---------- response 3 04/26/76 12.47 golden s 5 pm April 30. ---------- response 4 04/26/76 13.45 hody med that's an awfully short fuse for those who are not physically on campus and must depend on the servicio postalis inreliabilito. * i hope you have a lot of guest sign on's ready! * any plans for feeding back whose forms have been and whose forms have not been received? (an on line list or pnote confirmation porhaps?) ---------- note 450 out error 04/25/76 23.19 iezek ames system error OUT ERROR 0 0 very repeatable......(ahem) ---------- response 1 04/25/76 23.20 jeff martis park I also got the same message. jeff ---------- response 2 04/28/76 23.30 d williams unidel Didn't everybody? Seriously, are errors like this (that repeat thru many attempts to sign on) usually system-wide? ---------- response 3 04/25/76 23.30 avner s Thanks for the notes, they probably aren't really needed during non-prime time when experimentation is known to be going on but it is always better to pass the word on if in doubt. ---------- response 4 04/25/76 23.31 moore chema so did everyone else on the system.....all the other responses got in ahead of me.... ---------- note 457 line err 04/26/76 01.17 j thiher isumedia Is there a reason for the massive line errors in the ames site??????? jim? ---------- response 1 04/26/76 01.24 iezek ames Help... there arre massive line errors here.. Are there at other sites also?????!!!!! ---------- response 2 04/26/76 08.09 nagel vu We had a large series of line errors at Valpo. Evidently the phone co. made some changes in the lines to clear up some line error problems (noisy line) and their changes "fixed" things so that the auto-answer wouldn't stay locked on our signal. The problem has cleared up somewhat after some Plato service from Chicago and after much talking to Urbana. The output level of the modem required adjusting. Still not quite right but working enough to leave it alone. ---------- note 459 new record 04/26/76 02.05 b sherwood s Minor new option in course records: you can now set an option to allow/disallow an author or instructor to edit the course he is registered in, independent of whether the person knows a code word. ---------- response 1 04/26/76 09.05 hinton ssu What's the default state ? This could send a lot of people scurrying to their course editor, if the option is auto- matically allowed. ndh ---------- response 2 04/26/76 09.59 frankel p Authors still need the codeword to edit or inspect the course. (As always, however, instructors do not.) The new option only DISALLOWS editing the course (regardless or codeword). The default case is the former. ---------- note 466 Qvocabs 04/26/76 09.29 luke cornell Is there any way to merge two or more sets of -vocabs-? It seems to me that the facilities for this powerful command are sadly lacking in their versatility, judging from what I've encountered so far. Luke ---------- response 1 04/26/76 10.20 bonetti ced There is no way at present but it certainly would be nice if you could. One could then have one vocabulary of ignorable words which could be merged with several other vocabularies of important words. I would like to see this become a feature of vocabularies. ---------- response 2 04/26/76 10.26 silver ve Yes -- this type of capability should be implemented. I would also appreciate a service routine that did a vocabs - concept correlation, putting unused vocabulary words in one list, and used words in another. Otherwise, the bigger the vocabs gets, the worse the deadwood problem gets. Finally, I would appreciate a routine to take care of the following problem: vocabs a b c d concept a ad concept b bd concept c Usually one can get rid of word "d", or make it an ignore word, and improve the vocabs. The problem is finding all the instances of "d"'s. ---------- response 3 04/26/76 13.45 tenczar s will keep your comments in mind...thanks just a warning...i agree the -vocabs/concept- is powerful but I have seen it quite mis/over-used...keep in mind: use concept when you want to know what the student has specifically said, and use answer when you want the student to say something specific ---------- note 472 Var-Cop 04/26/76 11.18 myers o The Varian Copier is working again. There are some spots on the screen that as yet are unable to be removed. GBM ---------- response 1 04/26/76 15.26 galcher uimatha Welcome Back George! ---------- response 2 04/26/76 21.23 berger mfl Nice to see that you haven't lost your "varian technique"! ---------- note 473 ifthen 04/26/76 11.44 iezek ames Could notesfile ifthen be reinitialized so that more discussion can take place on these features? Mark Iezek ---------- response 1 04/26/76 18.02 phil mast p There has been a minor system bug involved with re-initializing this file. It should be fixed soon. ---------- response 2 04/26/76 23.31 phil mast p There is now more space. ---------- note 474 THANK 04/26/76 12.41 broadus css thanks for the additional ops. I wish they had been arround when I wrote some lessons earlier. A lot of my lessons have -inhibit erase-, erase. Thanks again, Bob Broadus ---------- note 476 shift-p? 04/26/76 13.25 olson ced This afternoon I'm having some problems with the editor. Shift-P to set blocks for condense (erase the -mark) does not seem to work. When I type the letter of the block to erase the '-' mark, it erases it, but then pressing next or back and when the screen replots, the mark is still there. This is very repeatable as I cannot now (at this moment) reset my blocks to condense. Any help?? Dennis ---------- response 1 04/26/76 13.38 resch nursing If you press either back or stop1, you will be taken out of 'P' mode, and nothing will be changed. You must press next. Read systems announcements note ¬$159. Paul Resch ---------- response 2 04/26/76 13.51 olson ced The error occurs when pressing NEXT also.... Dennis ---------- response 3 04/26/76 14.08 koning csstaff It works for me, so you either have a flaky keyset, a strange bug, or shaky fingers... ---------- response 4 04/26/76 14.58 wendling cs196 A couple days ago, I had a similar problem. The '-' did not always appear (or disappear) when it should have. However, the blocks were condensed according to the keys I pressed, not according to the'-'. ---------- response 5 04/26/76 17.18 b sherwood s Occasionally an out-of-adjustment plasma panel will fail to write an isolated "-" on the screen..... ---------- note 478 arcsin 04/26/76 13.39 stan smith chem * For about $30 one can buy a "calculator" which will evaluate such things as arcsin and arccos. Is there any chance that PLATO will provide these functions instead of requiring authors to specifically define them? ---------- response 1 04/26/76 14.09 david cerlcc ... two argument max and min functions would be nice system defined functions as well. ---------- response 2 04/26/76 14.44 parrello mfl To say nothing of =mod= (the undefinedness of which is one of the less desirable things in that category of features which make TUTOR unique among computer programming languages). ---------- response 3 04/26/76 17.02 shirer vu Last summer, a non-systems programmer volunteered to rewrite the CDC arcsin routines to add to TUTOR -calc- capabilities. I provided the necessary connections, and waited for the version to be debugged, and waited, and waited.....etc. We do hope to have it in eventually, but it looks like we will have to have someone else do it. There are plans for an eventual -mod- function as well. ---------- response 4 04/26/76 23.53 trueblood unidel I hope the mod-to-be will offer at the very least the¬ choice¬ of cycling from either¬ zero or one. Despite¬ the fact that the one cycling from zero is more traditional, I have¬ always found¬ more use for a mod cycling from one. JJT ---------- note 489 rereg=rein 04/26/76 14.51 brown iucs When authors are "reregistered", will their records be reinitialized as well, or will they remain as is? ---------- response 1 04/26/76 15.05 golden s The record will not be destroyed or altered. ---------- response 2 04/26/76 16.04 warner iu For those authors whose records will have to be moved into author courses (such as brown's), the copy-a- record option in course records allows transfer of the use data without problems. ---------- note 497 article 04/26/76 16.29 clark lawyer Bruce Sherwood's and Stan Smith's article on PLATO was just published in this week's edition of SCIENCE. Thought someone might like to know... ---------- response 1 04/26/76 16.40 olson ced Is SCIENCE sold on newstands?? Dennis ---------- note 503 registered 04/26/76 18.12 tricorn hebrew Why, if you are affiliated with the University are you not allowed to be an author in a non-UI course? I'm sure that there is someone who is affiliated and is also affiliated with some other institution that uses PLATO (maybe a summer job somewhere else using PLATO) and for some of various reasons needs to be registered in that institution's PLATO courses...of course, (according to the System Announcements Note) the system doesn't check to make sure the person isn't affiliated, so the course director simply says no, but... Is the name typed in going to be kept permanently with the author record (or maybe a pointer to the on-line list) and if so, what kind of cross referencing is the system going to do with these names? Δ ---------- response 1 04/26/76 18.30 golden s If you go to some other institution for the summer, they will be permitted to give you a record. If you stay here, you should use your U of I author record. ---------- response 2 04/27/76 10.45 b sherwood s At this time there is no permanent cross-linking to your real name. ---------- note 508 offbyone? 04/26/76 21.43 k gorey research Create an empty block, do R1, shift copy, and back. You will then find that the block now has one word used in it. Sounds like one of them thar off-by-one errors. ---------- response 1 04/27/76 10.35 friedman csa I don't know about last night when you wrote this note, but just now, I couln't duplicate the keypresses you report. I had to press something, at least -space-, before it would accept a -next- or consume a word with a -back-. Use of H1 shows that the consumed word is a word of 8 blanks. This is the normal appeareance of an "empty" line of tutor code...such a line is always padded to 8 blanks, even if you create it with Insert and press only -next-. ---------- response 2 04/27/76 14.44 koning csa It is not very well reproducible, There also is an exec error that one can get by doing something similar. I think this is a known bug... ---------- response 3 04/27/76 20.37 k gorey research I don't know about today when you wrote the note, but I am still able to do the same thing. ---------- response 4 04/27/76 21.23 frye mfl You see, the SHIFT-COPY pulls 1 word from the front of the block, which in your case was probably " " or something similar. When others tried it with their own blocks, they got whatever was in that first word -- which could well have been nothing at all (i.e,, a 0 word)... You might try con- verting the entire unused portion of your lesson to common, then destroying the common, then trying your procedure again. If it works then, you've got a problem... G. David ---------- note 509 back-out? 04/26/76 22.17 moore chema Were all the students who were working just now backed-out, or was the system "pulled out from under them?" I.e., was their status saved? OR did they lose credit for a whole evening's work? ---------- response 1 04/26/76 22.42 chabay s We do back-out users if at all possible before reloading the system. The "plato off" at 10:17 was a crash -- not an intentional reload. However, even in the event of a crash, students should lose at most 8 minutes work, because their status is checkpointed (returned to disk) about that often. ---------- note 510 system bug 04/26/76 22.35 mike o cornell We got an execution error at 10:32 cst p.m. during system test. The message said "out error 0 0" This occured after "call your instructor, condensor not available" display and pressing NEXT. I hope this will be of assistance to you. ---------- note 512 editor 04/26/76 23.11 corson phar I think it would be a good idea to make a key active in the editor that would by-pass a line in replace mode. It would be handy when you are re-working some code and don't want to keep skiping in and out of replace mode to go arround a line you don't want to change. Or is there already a thing that does this in the editor? If there is I have never seen it or been told about it so someone inform me please! Greg Corson ---------- response 1 04/26/76 23.15 rick hebrew You can press SHIFT-COPY while in replace mode to copy the entire line, then press NEXT. It's only one extra motion, and a lot more efficient, I'm sure, than coding the editor to allow skipping over lines... Rick Simkin ---------- response 2 04/26/76 23.17 alan hebrew Or press DATA twice. ---------- response 3 04/27/76 15.00 tricorn hebrew I would like both a NEXT1 to skip a line and a HELP1 to delete it...I think both have been mentioned before. Δ ---------- response 4 04/27/76 21.20 frye mfl DATA twice will leave you replacing the line you wanted to skip in the first place, Al. ---------- note 518 policynote 04/27/76 08.51 mont csa policynote almost full. And I have 2 notes to write! ---------- response 1 04/27/76 10.53 golden s I have provided more space in policynote. ---------- note 522 help pleas 04/27/76 10.49 t obrien politics I have a problem that someone may be able to help me with. The following piece of code is used in our student router and I want to put in a -judge- command to check on the limits of n6. But when I try to put one in, it is not executed. Could anyone explain why? arrow 2619 wrong storea lesname store n6 do alph jump lesname=N(4≠number-3),opjump,nothere ok * judge goes here transfr N(100+5≠(n6-n28+1)-4);lesname;1 jump opjump endarrow ---------- response 1 04/27/76 11.39 fisher conn Had the same problem with writeing a calculus test for my use... put a -specs- command after the arrow, then put the -judge- command after the specs.. should work fine then, though i do not know what alpha or anything else contains... fishswine ---------- response 2 04/27/76 11.41 copland csa Your jump command will jump you to another unit no matter what the value of lesname is at the time. You have a 'jump condition,true,false' since you don't allow any way to fall through the jump, you will never get to the judge command. You might want to either do the judge prior to the jump, or change the jump so that if a desired condition is not met, the student will fall through the jump. i.e. 'jump condition, right1,x'. If the lesson is the right one, he will be jumped, otherwise, he will fall through. ---------- response 3 04/27/76 11.47 fisher conn no.... the jump would be after the judge command... modify my help to put the transfr and the jump after the judge after the specs after the arrow, and it should work........ fishswine ---------- response 4 04/27/76 13.19 friedman csa NUTS!↓ The problem is that the -judge- works fine, but execution continues and the -transfr- and unconditional -jump- are executed, no matter what the judgement. You may want to use a judge tag such as "noquit", which will not only change the judgement to "no", but will stop processing regular commands. You don't need a -space-. ---------- response 5 04/27/76 13.21 judy pso The -storea- and -store- really don't have anything to do with your question. arrow 1010 ok judge (v6>5),ok,no transfr blah blah jump newunit A judgement of "no" does NOT stop processing. The -transfr- and -jump- will be done _regardless_ of the value of v6. If the -transfer- and -jump- should be done only when the answer is "correct", then put an -endarrow- before the -transfr-. ---------- response 6 04/27/76 15.43 berger mfl This is pretty much explained in "aids" too. ---------- response 7 04/27/76 17.00 t obrien politics Ok. The -endarrow- fixed the problem. I guess I should have tried it, but I think I need some more experience in judging. Thanks for all the help. Terry O'Brien ---------- note 523 sooner 04/27/76 10.50 golden s Please notice that the time for turning off all non-re-registered authors has been pushed up 24 hours. Records will be turned off during the early morning hours of Friday, April 30. Those that have been re-registered will continue to be active. Make sure your course director re-registers you before Thursday night! ---------- response 1 04/27/76 12.24 weible german How about a grace period for those of us at remote sites who are at the mercy of the US Mail or intercampus courier. I signed yesterday and sent the form off, but who knows whether you will receive it and be able to enter my name in PLATO's list by Thursday afternoon. It would be annoying to lose a day's (or even more) work on account of this. David Weible UICC ---------- response 2 04/27/76 12.27 mike b cornell Sigh. I don't suppose we could have a reason for this. As much as I generally admire the productivity and helpfulness of the systems staff, I must say that this re- registration procedure does not seem to have been suffici- ently thought out before moving on it. Is there some pres- sure on the staff that we are simply not being told about? If not, I don't see why this couldn't have been handled in a more organized fashion. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 3 04/27/76 12.41 berger mfl Mike, I wish you were on campus here to witness it firsthand... ---------- response 4 04/27/76 12.49 weible german God, don't keep us in suspense. What's it like????? ---------- response 5 04/27/76 13.18 volpe mfl CERL is swamped by crowds of madding authors who are try- ing to meet _that_ deadline for fear that their records will be shut off; in which case they can no longer produce first class stuff and get a humungus royality of $.02 per student hour for. What would happen if all authors refused to sign ?????? hhhmmmmmmmm...... tˇv ---------- response 6 04/27/76 20.38 k gorey research We would miss seeing the "best of all possible worlds" as the contract has been described. ---------- response 7 04/27/76 21.03 golden s To answer the original question about why the change, we did it because we thought we could handle the emergencies better on a Friday when our entire staff is here than on a Saturday. There will probably be more emergencies as a result, but not that many more. As for the short total time, the May 1 deadline si extern- ally imposed, and we didn't know that we would have to do until late last week. ---------- note 525 MAGIC 04/27/76 11.11 exper2 ed GO INTO LESSON MAGIC!!!!! IT≤ IS THE CRAZE OF THE CENTURY!!! I heard about it from a friend of mine, and you can do practically anything in there..... Well, not anything, but, I'll tell you, it would be a usefull lesson to have on the roster of a student signon!!!!!! ---------- response 1 04/27/76 12.00 koning csa Oh no, one of those again.... ---------- response 2 04/27/76 12.18 snellen medneta Did you get the author's permission to announce 'magic' in public notes? If not, then you really should have; my impression is that 'magic' is not yet complete, at least there seem to be some rough spots in it. --JES ---------- response 3 04/27/76 12.22 luke cornell I always wanted to know how to get into games.. gee, thanks...... ---------- response 4 04/27/76 12.31 mike b cornell Oh boy, here we go again. Couldn't _some_ restraint be exercised in Public Notes? Can't announcements (?) like this be relegated to Pad? Gamenotes? Not written? There has been a perceptible increase in the number of notes like this one in Public Notes over the past few months. Wading through the, shall we say, less than gener- ally interesting stuff to get to things of real importance is getting to be a chore. M¬ ike≤≤≤≤ˇB ---------- response 5 04/27/76 12.41 nudelman css Is there a notefile exclusively for the announcement of new lessons? If not, shouldn't there be? * Mark Nudelman * ---------- response 6 04/27/76 13.11 hody med is there a notefile for the announcement of notefiles? ---------- response 7 04/27/76 13.23 friedman csa Believe it or not, George, YES....it's called, I think, groupnotes.... ---------- response 8 04/27/76 14.10 dave fuller uimc Hopefully, this junk may cease after May 1. ---------- response 9 04/27/76 15.34 clark lawyer Yes, "groupnotes! is a notesfile which contains a list of some of the groupnotes files available on the system. ---------- response 10 04/27/76 15.44 mike cornell This sort of announcement is really no bother to anyone at Cornell. Our student/cornell multiple's router detects jumpouts to games, and prevents their repeated use. Contact me for further details if you are interested in goofoff- proofing your student/multiple signons while allowing maximal freedom. Mike Huybensz ---------- response 11 04/27/76 15.59 hody med this is as good a place as any to plug "intergraf"-- a lesson which detects any games in use on your site. * let me know if there are obsolete exclusions/inclusions in the list. * george l hody ---------- note 526 Chars 04/27/76 11.21 t nishida uni To anyone concerned, I would like to know if there is a charset of the Japanese characters. If there is one, I would want to know who's it is and if I could copy it into my lesson. I am planning to write a lesson of this language. Please contact me if you know. t nishida uni≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤ n≤≤≤t ni ---------- response 1 04/28/76 08.15 judy pso try contacting Wayne Shinoki, 344-7511 shinoki/mflu I think that "mflu" will chagne to "flb" for most authors when the re-registering is done. ---------- note 539 restrict? 04/27/76 12.56 clark lawyer I seem to remember this being asked before, but I have forgotten the answer: Will non-U of I authors still be able to work on U of I terminals (like at CERL)?? ---------- response 1 04/27/76 13.03 railing iu I remember seeing somewhere, policynotes perhaps, that visiting authors would be treated the same way as they are now. If this changes, there will/may be temporary author sign-ons available for visitors. Nate/iumusic was one who asked this question before, so maybe he or Golden can clarify and/or improve on my response. Malkin ---------- response 2 04/27/76 13.29 b sherwood phys It MAY be that we restrict non-UI authors in some way from using UI terminals. If we have to do this, we will of course have to set up some mechanism for "guest" records when a remote user visits here. ---------- response 3 04/27/76 13.55 maggs law Is it all right for an author such as clark who is both employed by a non-UI project which has its own terminal and also will be attending the U of I to have a signon both places? It so I can solve the problem by giving him one. ---------- response 4 04/27/76 16.42 golden s I think that is ok. ---------- response 5 04/27/76 19.11 nate iu Well, as I didn't get a response from the last time, but do have one now, I was wondering at least for my case that whenever something does get decided that I can be informed via pnote or somewhere else as I personally will be making the trudge a couple times up in the next few months. I realize this place may not be the palce for this note, but I was wondering where would (pnotes to all the systems-programmers???) Nate (formerly of iumusic) ---------- note 553 translate 04/27/76 15.42 wood medsiuc What do you mean by "No binaries available for a while"? Will someone please translate to English? Ray Wood ---------- response 1 04/27/76 15.48 dave fuller uimc Go into AIDS, press DATA, type binaries, and press NEXT. ---------- note 555 editor 04/27/76 15.44 jackson cs196 Today(April 27, 1976), at approximately 3:40 p.m.(and after numerous system crashes), I noticed that the parts feature was not working in the editor. Was that due to the system problems or is there a system bug? I could not change any of the condensation flags on my lesson. Let me know what you come up with. G.J. ---------- response 1 04/27/76 15.51 jackson cs196 I found out that the feature does work but the flag in- dicators are not showing up properly. G.J. ---------- response 2 04/28/76 00.30 jackson cs196 It is now 12:25 on April 27 and I notice that the partial condense option on the editor is working but only if you press NEXT after choosing an option. I remember that a few days ago, pressing BACK would also work. Wha hoppened? G.J. ---------- response 3 04/28/76 02.29 t little research In the SYSTEM ANNOUNCEMENTS part of notes you will find note number 159 reads as such: ******** new edit 04/23/76 23.09 midden s The partial option in the editor has been changed to make BACK or SHIFT-STOP an escape key. Thus backouts don't leave the lesson in the middle of things. Several other minor fixes that shouldn't be noticeable. If you disagree wiht the way things work, let me know. Also definitely let me know of strange things. M.Midden ******** I would pressume that answers the question. Todd ---------- note 556 disk error 04/27/76 15.44 marty smith orlando before the most recent crash, i received a "Disk Error" Unit not ready. enjoy. ---------- note 558 I/Oerror 04/27/76 15.45 fox ed317 I have an I/O error. I cannot get into my lesson!!!!! HELP fox of ed317 lesson:ed317f ---------- note 559 I/O erro 04/27/76 15.48 wood medsiuc Before the crash at 3:40, I had an I/O error. Then, when I tried to enter lesson I was told that the lesson no longer existed. In fact, all lesson (except for lesson 'T') were supposedly non-existent. Ah well...computer...even PLATO has bad days. Ray Wood ---------- response 1 04/27/76 16.27 novak com I believe the disk packs were turned off for some reason. I was reading "pad", and got a message that said: Disk I/O Error 29 323 Pack not on Shortly after this, I found that all I could do was to sit on the author mode page ---------- response 2 04/27/76 17.54 luke cornell Of course there's always-talkomatic-.... ---------- response 3 04/27/76 20.05 sohramm cs317 Apparently everything on disk pack godiva worked ok. Also someone said "trek" was working....sure was a strange afternoon. ---------- note 568 instrc.err 04/27/76 17.56 ka lutz usc while there were problems , i got a message "error in instructor file" when i tried to enter one of my students. (mrouter is used in this course). kathy ---------- response 1 04/27/76 20.48 meers wright Some section of mrouter could not be accessed because some of the disk packs were not working properly. Everything should be fine now. ---------- note 570 printmicro 04/27/76 18.54 alan m nuc Would it be nice if the varian printer would include half-- spaces (micro-space and micro-shift-space) when printing out a lesson, rather than skipping the space altogether and printing out the next character (with an attached systems micro) in its micro form? ---------- response 1 04/27/76 21.30 t little research It has nothing to do with the micro table as that is only referenced when you are inputting keys at an arrow. The problem is that the varian print program ignores those characters. Todd ---------- note 571 coursedit 04/27/76 19.11 rick hebrew Concerning the new course editing options which can be set for instructors: A more useful interpretation would be to have those two bits mean the following: 1) Can edit own course without change code 2) Can edit any course, given change code rather than the current 1) Can edit own course 2) Can edit other courses That way, an instructor could edit his own course if he knew the change code; as it currently stands, an instructor with option (1) turned off cannot access his course at all. Rick Simkin ---------- response 1 04/27/76 19.34 koning csa It seems that it is impossible to change the 'edit own course' option of another record in another course if that option is turned off in your own record. That way any record I create has the option ON. This makes no sense; I would think that if you want to lock things at all, it should be 'edit other=NO'... ---------- note 575 re-entry 04/27/76 19.38 meers wright It used to be that if you were going to provide a non Shift-Stop exit to your lesson (such as back or shift-back) you could allow easy reentry by -calc-ing the lesson name into n-variable 1. This doesn't seem to work anymore and I can't figure out if it is because of the jumpout q or if the lesson name is no longer stored in that first variable. Was the change intentional? ---------- response 1 04/27/76 19.49 midden s Yes, the change was intentional. This was never an announced feature of the system. ---------- response 2 04/27/76 23.25 luke cornell I always liked it for getting back to my lesson after a -jumpout q-. Is there anywhere else we can find it? ---------- note 585 Games 04/27/76 21.51 hirschorn wright Can someone tell me the names of some games that are played in hebrew? thanx Mike ---------- response 1 04/27/76 21.54 banks mfl Contact "rick" of "hebrew" for educational games in hebrew. ---------- response 2 04/28/76 09.13 berger mfl There is a hebrew "wordwar", a hebrew "hangman", and a hebrew crossword puzzle. "rick" of "hebrew" will cease to exist shortly. His new signon will be "simkin" of "flb", I think. ---------- note 587 Q option 04/27/76 23.05 warrens uw Hello, all. I would like to suggest an added attraction for the lesson editor. As most of you know, pressing Qxxxxx... at the directives arrow, zaps you to AIDS for a handy-dandy explanation of xxxxx...! In most of my work with the Q option, it seems that I usually look at command definitions. Also, these commands are the first non-zero(or non-055) word of a lesson line. Thus I suggest that the Q option should be able to take a decimal integer number as a tag, the number being the line of code which is used to locate the object of search in AIDS. The info is available, as in the R option. Also, instead of inserting a string of chars directly into the tag, PLATO does it indirectly, after locating the first word of the line specified. clarification in next response.....) ---------- response 1 04/27/76 23.13 warrens uw cont... I think that a good range for the numbers could be 0¬<(¬$) ¬<31, where (¬$) is the line number. I include 31 as that is the max. lines per plato editor page. And I include 0 so that you can search the line just above what is displayed (so you don't have to B1). e.g.: 1 unit what 2 nextop now 3 at 2121 4 write I just have to know my numbers! * To find out the AIDS explanations of .nextop., all I do is press Q2-next....and zap to AIDS! Please comment if this is feasible, possible, probable OR wanted!!!! Randy ---------- response 2 04/27/76 23.28 luke cornell Seems to take me just as long to type the name of the command, as to look for it in my block, and transfer the line number. It would be cute, but not really needed. I think that there are many things I would like to see given higher priority than this. Luke ---------- note 589 Shift1 ? 04/27/76 23.16 warrens uw I was in the condense queue with a student signon at approximately 22:50 tonight, and I could not STOP1 out of the queue. I thought that after 30secs. or so, a student could SHIFT1 off?!?!?!? ---------- response 1 04/28/76 08.19 rick hebrew Usually, a student can STOP1 out of the condense queue. There are, however, soem unfortunate exceptions: If the student is a routed student and is condensing the router, he cannot sign off until the router is condensed. If the student is not routed, and goes straight to the lesson specified in his restart information. he cannot sign of until _that_ lesson has been condensed. Rick Simkin (And if the studet tries pressing SHIFT1, nothing will happen anywhere: what do you do with a shifted SHIFT key?!) ---------- note 591 listless 04/27/76 23.27 k gorey research I have noticed that there has been a lot of uproar concerning whether a person is allowed to make a list of lessons for the purpose of jumping out to them, and then advertising the fact that he/she has that list. The question is whether there will be the same problem with leslists containing game names for the purpose of scanning the site, e.g. intergraf. It would seem that the same principle would apply in both cases, and the author of the scanner should be required to get the permission of the authors before he/she releases the lesson. Comments, criticisms, tirades? ---------- response 1 04/28/76 01.04 anderer ee Not necessarily....As I see it, the furror over jumpouts is dictated by system policy that you _should_ not enter or execute a lesson without the authors permission. And these jumpouts provide an easy route of access that tends to submerge this concept. HOWEVER, knowing that someone is in lesson 'example' is a different case (in my mind) than entering it yourself. I'm also afraid the concept you propose is somewhat unworkable. For carrying the argument to it's logical conclusion, lesson 'site' shouldn't display lesson names, unless the operator has the author's permission to view the lesson name. Rather absurd. I guess it comes down to the difference between 1) listing a lesson name, and 2) providiing an access means to it. *** end of notes ***